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Choosing Your Starter: IKE take TWO

Bomber7

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vermiis basically repeated what I said, none the less, it's how I feel.

Orion, I think we are probably going to get Charizard and Squirtle out of this discussion, however, if Ivy's ability to start like I and vermiis believe, turns out to be fact, there really isnt much anyone else can say, how can you argue with fact?

Though, I'd like to get more word from Typh, after all he did post first that he was a Ivy starter for life. SO I want to hear more on what he has to say.

Edit: @EVERYONE- It has already been established a million times that Squirlte is definitely a great choice to start, however we are lingering over the controversy of whether or not to start Charz and or Ivy along with squirtle or not to start them at all. Let's focus our attention on these two shall we?
 

Ryusuta

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I genuinely apologize; I didn't realize that I typed it out how it sounded.
I'm sorry, too. I guess I was too sensitive and overreacted. No harm, no foul.

Orion, I think we are probably going to get Charizard and Squirtle out of this discussion, however, if Ivy's ability to start like I and vermiis believe, turns out to be fact, there really isnt much anyone else can say, how can you argue with fact?

It has already been established a million times that Squirlte is definitely a great choice to start, however we are lingering over the controversy of whether or not to start Charz and or Ivy along with squirtle or not to start them at all. Let's focus our attention on these two shall we?
From the looks of things, Bomber, it looks like the growing consensus is that yes, Charizard and Ivy CAN be viable choices against Falco, but Squirtle has the most going for him in the early part of the match-up. Therefore, if you feel we have enough information to make that the standard for the moment (and we can always change this later and come back to the discussion if we feel it necessary), I'll update the chart for everyone. I'll wait for your A-OK on this, however.

I think when you write the synopsis, you should make it a point to say that while Squirtle is the BEST starter of the three in terms of attributes, an argument could be made for both of the others.
 

Bomber7

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yes, if I do all 3 which is pretty much what I may end up doing I was planning on adding that Squirtle is the best however Ivy and Charizard are still capable to doing a pretty good job starting out as well. I'm up late doing work for school so I think tomorrow when I get home from school I will write my summary.
 

Ryusuta

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Alright. I'll update the graph to reflect Squirtle as the starter of choice tomorrow, as well.
 

Bomber7

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I will add a little summary for ivysaur and charizard so I dont think you should modify your chart just yet, however for Fox, who is next, You might have to change it, I have a feeling all 3 will be good against him, but I want to see what everyone else says tomorrow when I start the fox discussion.
 

SSJ5Goku8932

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The PT boards is dead :laugh:

This is the only topic getting attention.



Squirtle seems to be the best. Charizard and Ivysaur are both viable 2nd, I will post those tomorrow.
 

shinyspoon42

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Starting against Falco




Falco's main strengths;
1.)laser spam
2.)CG to spike
3.)great aerial game

Squirtle Matchup;

1.)When he spams, you are small enough to crawl over, or just jump over. Uneffective against squirtle, disabling his projectile mostly.
2.)With a character as agile as squirtle, its rare for Falco to pull off the grab. As long as Squirtle keeps him in the air, not a real problem. Watch out though, if he lands the CG it will hurt.
3.)Squirtle really shines here, as he is a better aerial fighter than falco. Use Squirtles agility to cause some pain and dart in to do damage, and be annoying as possible. Not much of a problem, watch out for bair.

Overall, Squirtle is an excellent matchup against Falco, and can deal with his greatest strengths. Definitley a starter, but is he the only one?

Ivysaur Matchup;

1.)When he starts to throw out the lasers, time to get in the air and throw your razor leafs. He has you at a disadvantage here, and will force you to approach. Actually, thats a good thing. Just pressure him, its to your advantage to go toe to toe with him.
2.)Much easier then the Squirtle matchup because you outspace him with every one of your moves, so he should never pull off a grab. In my view, Ivy's greatest strength is spacing. Use your whips to keep Falco at bay, and you won't get grabbed. On the off chance you do, you don't need to worry about a spike because you can instant tether to the ledge if he tries it, and start punishing him.
3.)I love when you play an aerial character with Ivy, and they don't know the matchup. Stifle them constantly with B-air, and they will be limited in their options. It keeps them grounded. On the off chance you don't want to hamper them and keep them grounded, just remember to space and they won't be able to get close enough to do anything.

Ivysaur is just a good starter as Squirtle. Ivysaur will stifle and pressure Falco, and space him so he is helpless. Ivy will rack up damage fast, and is easy to kill with. He survives better then Squirtle, and he is harder to spike. Now we look at the last Pokemon.

Charizard Matchup;

1.)If he starts lasering, take to the sky. He will force you to approach with his lasers, and you can't do much about it. So approach well. Come in flamethrowing and rack up some damage, or come in with a rock smash. Be careful though, as he has the upper hand in this situation.
2.)You are big fat and kinda slow. Heavyweights generally are, so you are easy to CG. Watch out, as he can and will CG to a spike for an easy kill. Luckily, you have a ridiculous grab range to beat out his, and you can space him away with d-tilt and f-air. Just watch out, as you are an easy target for his spike.
3.)In the air, he will knock you around alot. He will prefer it if you take it to an aerial battle, so try to be grounded until he pulls out his lasers. Stay in close, and stay grounded. Grab him, space him, and smash him. Do whatever it takes to get a few licks in.

Charizard is not a matchup against Falco you want to start with. Maybe for the kill, but otherwise he is easy prey for Falco's monstrous CG options and lasers. You won't be controlling this battle, he will. Don't put Charizard in to start, unless he is your best and you think you have a shot. Otherwise, its a uphill battle.


Percent wise, I'd say against Falco here are the the ranks;

60 Squirtle

55 Ivysaur

30 Charizard

As a fanatic ivy fan, I may be biased but I think Ivy works almost as well as Squirtle in the match against Falco. Obviously Squirtle is an option as a starter, but I think Ivy works well against Falco as well, and is a better starter. Falco is a tough foe, but Pokemon Trainer has all the tools to win against him. Thoughts?
 

Vermy

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This has rapidly turned into a matchup thread. =/

@Spoon:
Nice summary, haven't seen you round these parts, sooooo.....welcome to Smashboards, good to see another PT main. =)
As I've already said, if you start a stock as ivy, and switch when you're at about 60-80, Zard really does well. No cg, no combos, no fowl (GET IT? HA!) and he does what he does best. Survive and Destroy. I wouldn't say Zard is at THAT heavy a disadvantage, but its definitely not in his favour.
 

shinyspoon42

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I didn't make it matchups...I just posted something that suspiciously looks like a matchup-y post. rhymes with ketchup-y. mmm. ketchup. See? I've already changed the subject to ketchup, which goes great with fries.

Thanks, I've lurked since before brawl, but never really made an account, just tried to acummulate knowledge. Its definitely a good idea to switch to Zard if you want to get squirtle out sooner, and zard is suited for higher percents, you're right. However, Zard does suffer from a heavy disadvantage, maybe closer to 35-65, but really he has a horrible matchup here.
 

PkTrainerCris

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Charizard doesnt do that bad against falco:
*He has good range, and you can space to stay out of his grab range... and i wouldnt recommend spacing with dtilt(i save it to kill) and NEVER space with fair...
*On the air, charizard has more range and more "movility" due to the third jump
*Charizard can gimp falco pretty good
*the chaingrab to spike should never kill you, its goal is to build damage, which charizard can handle better than squirtle and ivy
*Fly's super armor is godly against falco's spike

Actually, Charizard does better than ivy against falco... those lasers are a real pain, but they hurt ivy too
Its just that charizard does much better on high percents so starting with him is not the best choice

And wellcome to the PT boards, shinyspoon
 

Retro Gaming

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No really, this isn't a match-up thread.

The discussion in here needs to shy away from talking about how well the specific Pokémon goes with the opposing match-up (That would be match-up discussion) and more about switching related conventions.

For example, lets say I were discussing Snake lead options. I could argue that I would likely lead as Ivysaur for several reasons:

  • A decent match-up with Snake (Not the worst of the three at the very least, IMO)
  • The transition from Ivysaur to Charizard at higher percentages is favorable because it gives Charizard (Who, IMO, is the worst in this match-up) a use in stock tanking, while also making it so that Snake's strong explosion attacks don't end up taking Ivysaur out early.
  • It allows Squirtle to come in fresh after Charizard dies as a stock tank. This is compounded by the fact that Snake likely has a lot of residual damage from Charizard, and will make it significantly easier for Squirtle to get a quick KO and then still be fresh for another round.

My example is valid, regardless of if you agree/disagree with my reasoning. If you look at it closely, you will see I barely touched upon specific character versus character examples, and instead focused on ideal transitioning of my Pokémon, how each Pokémon can fit into its own role in the match, and how I would envision the match if I were to play it "perfectly". This is the sort of discussion that can help you decide on a leading Pokemon.
 

Bomber7

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Well if you guys are going to listen to anyone when they say "stay away from it turning into a match-up discussion" then listen to Retro. Just remember this thread pretty much has been one of the most active lately and we have already done quite a bit of work. I'd hate for this to be closed for it turning into another matchup discussion thread. I'd like it to keep it as simply as possible, similar to what Retro just said in his last post. I want it simple and I want good reasoning or else flat out saying who is best without a why behind it would be dumb. So lets try and keep it simple, I dont want this to be closed and have had all that work go to waste.

Purpose of this thread:
-Find best starter against _____________
-though discussion find out if the chart is accurate and find reason as to why or why not it is accurate
-To, for the most part, finalize the whole OP, mod it or w/e, to where it is simple and reasonable, keeping in mind that this is to start a pokemon without the intention to get a kill, but to best go with a strategy against __________. Keep in mind that switching is part of a good strategy, sometimes it isnt needed like for some starting up matches with Charizard however, it's all apart of what you decide to do against your opponent. This is just a thread to show you who is recomended. As for now I'm going to update the OP.

FOX

So far, Orion only has Ivysaur and squirtle up on there as recommended starters. I really have no problem with this because those are the two main pokemon I use in battle however.....

Imo, all three can start, if you have seen any of my recent videos against Redson's Fox, you can see why. However I do have to say this that may affect my opinion.

1) since I start with Squirtle mainly and then when he is gone, I go to Ivy to finish the match, my charizard skill lacks a bit.
2) despite the fact that me and redson are not the best players in our start, when we fight, if it is not a bad day for either of us, then we fight at the best of our ability which makes for a good show, which I'm pretty sure most of those videos are like that.
3) I am ignorant as to Fox players most commonly play, I only play 3 fox players, Redson, a friend from Zachary and one from N.O and I only get to see those other two guys once a month, when I go to the tournaments here locally, otherwise, Redson is my only Fox exp. Anyway, Red imo from observation plays differently than the common person whether is be his main, sheik or his other main, which is fox.

Overall because of my countless matches against his fox that I have no discomfort in starting any of the three. My only complaint is that the fox player from N.O totally pillared me with attacks and I was barely able to move, however this was a while back, during that time period when my charizard was not very flexible, however recently I have managed to loosen him up some.

So remember guys, lets not make this into a match-up discussion. Try to keep it simple and reasonable. We arent looking for the best pokemon to start and keep on the feild to kill, otherwise I'm sure if that were the case, for most of these match-ups it would be charizard alone.
 

CHOMPY

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Squirtle has that utilt going for him but watch out of Fox's Usmash as it can kill Squirtle at 80%, since Squirtle is a light character after all. Squirtle is fast and has quick aerials to really combo Fox like using those Uairs and a Few Bairs or Fairs

Ivysaurs Razor Leaves bring Fox down hard. Also, Fox can get comboed very easily from a Nair to either Bullet Seed or Utilt and gets edgeguarded real easily from a dtilt if he tries to attempt on using the side B (Fox Flash) what ever its called :dizzy: . Same way as you would do with Charizards Flamethrower.

Charizard is a very good start against Fox because you can Uthrow Fox and use a couple Uair until Fox is close enough to land. Fox will sit there camp all day shooting out his lazers except he stands and doens't jump. As far as edgeguarding goes, Charizard can spike him or edgeguard Fox with the Flamethrower. You just gotta watch out for Fox's diar to utilt combo because Charizard can get juggled real easily and Charizard has been known to get juggle real easily.
 

PkTrainerCris

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I agree, squirtle is the best starte against fox.... charizard is easy to juggle and ivy is susceptible to dsmash -> gimp.... the best is to start as squirtle and bring ivy in at high percents IMO
 

Bomber7

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yep. like I said, want an example of a PT vs Fox match, go to the video archive and look me up. it's a fair example of how things would go down.

Still comfortable with all three for reasons previously stated.
 

Vermy

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I dare say ivysaur for this one.
Fox relies on dair to start all his combos and as we all know, ivy has a particularly strong defense vs anyone attacking from above. Shine would be the biggest problem, but that's IF he can get you offstage. Your projectile is much more effective, bigger range and an answer to practically everything he has to dish out. He can't seem to do much if you bair approach. It outranges everything he's got. I vs a Fox main on a regular basis, and ivy gets me 1, 1 and a half stock off Fox, squirtle taking the rest.
This is a worse matchup for zard than falco imo. You get comboed to holy hell.
I can't think of anything else atm.
 

Bomber7

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it's hard to start chrizard, if fox gains momentum, chariz is a sitting duck. maybe it is best that Squirtle or ivy start.
 

Ryusuta

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Updated the graph on the OP.

To me, it's a definite toss-up between Ivysaur and Squirtle. Charizard CAN start against Fox, but it susceptible to Fox's own tilt locks and juggles. It's a needless risk.

Not to undersell Fox, but what Ivysaur brings to the table in this match is virtually the same as what he brings in for Falco's match, without the fear of being chain grabbed. I certainly don't want to write off Fox in this match, because he can put up a real fight; it's just that Ivysaur does what he can do against Falco, only better, and without fear of deadly repercussion right out of the gate.

The same holds true for Squirtle. Squirtle puts up just as good of a fight against Fox as he does against Falco early on, and he's not susceptible to being juggled. Squirtle also makes a good choice in this fight.
 

Bomber7

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^^ what I love about pitting fox against squirtle is that countless times have I killed my friend Redson with a hydroplane upsmash when he was at 102%. Oddly enough it also kills his Sheik at that % too lol. But it is obvious that Squirtle is a good starter for here. However, if we did have the strategy to keep him until he is KO'd then, the most I am able to get out of squirtle is 1 stock. However Ivysaur is also good here too. Nair chains and Nair combos ftw. Plus, unless you are a seriously good fox player, you wont be able to relfect razor leaf 100% of the time unless it is obvious it's multi usuage has become uncontrolable spam. O yeah and water gun rox against fox too. Only thing I really hate about fox is his freaking Goofy Shoe. yes the giant goofy shoe that puts all th kick into his annoying upsmash.
 

PkTrainerCris

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The good deal about ivy starter is that it lets you bring charizard in at high percents to survive a lot and dont get comboed.... while squirtle start is susceptible to uSmash Ko, or Dsmash KO if oyu switch to ivy at high percents...
 

Vermy

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Goofy shoe lol!
And ill have to admit, I manage to land hydro-anything a lot better on Fox. Hydrograb dthrow is too sexy.

IMO, this starter doesn't stray from the one vs Falco. We don't have a cg to worry about, and Fox's lasers don't stop our approach at all.

Squirtle OR ivy is great. Who ever you feel most confident with. I prefer to go Ivy start, switch on KO, stock with Zard, and let Squirtle quite capably finish the fight.
 

Bomber7

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yeah, who ever you start up with, you are in a perfect position to rack up damage squickly and then switch to a person with some killing power.
 

Charizard92

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Just don't start as Charizard. Whatever Charizard hates, Fox pretty much is it's worst form (not 70-30 bad, but pretty bad). Fox can juggle, and has a projectile, along with other neat ****. Just don't start with him.
 

Ryusuta

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yeah, who ever you start up with, you are in a perfect position to rack up damage squickly and then switch to a person with some killing power.
Just don't start as Charizard. Whatever Charizard hates, Fox pretty much is it's worst form (not 70-30 bad, but pretty bad). Fox can juggle, and has a projectile, along with other neat ****. Just don't start with him.
Both of these two things I feel sum up the match perfectly. I think it's safe to say that we'll have a much easier time deciphering this one than Falco's match. :)
 

Steeler

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don't underestimate fox, guys. you know how if you mess up once, you eat 45%+ from a falco grab? it's kind of the same deal with fox but with his dair.
 

Ryusuta

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Again, this is taking nothing away from Fox. But Falco's chain grab is a lot more dangerous against the Pokemon, especially since it racks up damage AND puts them instantly in a dangerous recovery situation.
 

Steeler

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true. fox dair does lead into very difficult to escape and powerful usmash/dsmashes though. and it's a threat at all percents, not just early on in your stock.

but anyway, i'm kind of straying from the point of the topic. squirtle/ivysaur. but the problem is that both die insanely early to fox kill moves (usmash with squirtle and dsmash sets up an easy gimp with ivysaur). and killing is no where near as easy for either of those pokemon.
 

shinyspoon42

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For all the reasons stated, I'd agree that Squirtle/Ivysaur is the best starters. Ivysaur slightly better simply because you switch from ivy to zard for an easy kill at high percents.
 

Kage Me

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For all the reasons stated, I'd agree that Squirtle/Ivysaur is the best starters. Ivysaur slightly better simply because you switch from ivy to zard for an easy kill at high percents.
Pretty much that... My usual anti-Fox strategy would be as following:

Start as Ivysaur
Switch to Charizard at high % to tank the rest of PT's first stock
Have Squirtle take Fox's second stock
Switch to Ivysaur upon taking Fox's second stock
Take Fox's third stock as Ivysaur or Charizard
 

Vermy

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Seems pretty unanimous.
Squirtle/Ivy start, switch to Zard mid Ivy-stock and stock tank.

Why are PT boards so dead? It makes me sad. =(
 

Zigsta

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Seems pretty unanimous.
Squirtle/Ivy start, switch to Zard mid Ivy-stock and stock tank.

Why are PT boards so dead? It makes me sad. =(
I actually prefer starting with Charizard here. Lots of Foxes try that Illusion-from-the-edge mindgames, and Flamethrower pretty much nullifies that. Charizard is the toughest to shine of the three, I'd say, since his up B has super armor frames. Squirtle does great against Fox for sure. I find Ivysaur a tough matchup, though, since pretty much one offstage shine is death against a good Fox.

And the PT boards make me sad, too. XD
 

Vermy

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Charizard is NOT hard to shine. He has a gigantic orange as$. You have 3 jumps before your up b for them to shine you, and fly is piss poor in terms of horizontal recovery, so if you get hit during your glide, you're done.
And Fox combos. Its what he does. Ask any fox main what his best move is and ill bet he say dair. Dair>utilt combos **** Zard on early %. You can try to space as much as you like, but Fox is freakin fast on his feet, you can't keep him away for long, otherwise he'll just laser spam. Then when you come in at him, bam. Combo. Switching 1/2 way through ivys stock nullifies the pain of being comboed, tanks the stock and stops ivy being gimped early. Not denying that zard does well vs fox, but I really don't think he's a wise starter.

A good fox main will hit shine 90% of the time.
A good PT main won't let ivy get gimped 90% of the time.
I train on a regular basis against one of the top 12 in my state who mains MK and Kirby. They are both inarguably the pimps of gimps. After the right practice, I don't get gimped anywhere near as much. The key is not to panic. If the opponent stays on the edge, just wait till vinewhips sweetspot is in range and let 'er rip. ;-) whipspike. More likely than not, they'll die before you. Guaranteed to make your opponents jaw drop. Having 1/3 of your main living half the amounts of the others doesn't do any justice.

Regardless, good to see a different answer. =)
 

Zigsta

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Yeah, Fox's dair is too good. XD I really just feel comfortable defensively with Charizard, and Ivysaur's pretty much the opposite for me right now. I started experimenting with new ways of approaching with Ivysaur the other day, though, and I think I may be on to something. Basically, ever since Brawl first came out, I've mained Pokemon Trainer and asked friends which one was my worst character of the three, and then I work on that character. Originally Ivysaur was my best and Charizard was my worst, so I worked on Charizard. Then Squirtle was my worst, so I worked on him. Now depending on who you talk to, they'll say either Squirtle of Charizard is my best, but they'll usually say Ivysaur is my worst at this point. That's one of the reasons I'm becoming more active here on the PT boards. I don't think Ivysaur's metagame is as developed as Charizard's and Squirtle's, which is a shame because Ivysaur packs some seriously powerful and damage-racking moves. I'd like to be able to help out Ivysaur's metagame--and for that matter, the other Pokemon--any way I can.

So yeah, bit of a rant there, haha. Back to Fox's dair: It's annoying as the flip against Charizard, you're right. Most Foxes I fight as Ivysaur try to push me to the edge with fsmashes following dair/utilt combos, and I usually find it easier to counterattack with Charizard. As long as I don't get shined by Fox, Charizard tends to live longer against Fox than Ivysaur since Charizard is heavier.

I haven't looked into Instant Tether much, but that can be used when Fox smashes Ivysaur off the stage, right? That way you could avoid a possible shine if the Fox player isn't used to a Instant Tether tech. Again, haven't really looked into the AT much; just saw the vid. Planning on working on this over the summer when I have more free time on my hands.

And Whip Spike is indeed awesome. I've taken out PhantomX, Espy, and Hylian with that in friendlies, haha.

Regardless, good to see a different answer. =)
That's what I'm here for. :p
 

Ryusuta

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Well, it looks like we have a consensus. We'll wait for Bomber to return so we can move on to the next opponent.
 

Magik0722

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I dont do to well in this matchup and you should start off as squirtle or ivysuar or pikachu
preferably i do the latter
 

Steeler

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magik has the right idea. use that pikachu you just caught in viridian forest
 
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