Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Hydreigonfan01]

Yonni has found a bit of Steve tech

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Bonus from another Steve player in response to the tech Yonni found while watching VODs of acola

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[Hydreigonfan01]

BTW upset thread for Kagaribi 7 Day 1
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/uhxyn6

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

Why was Atalier DQed? Also, where can I watch the sets?

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Why was Atalier DQed? Also, where can I watch the sets?

Atelier decided not to go. I don't know the reason why. You can watch the sets at eastgeeksmash's Youtube channel or VGBootCamp's Twitch Stream.

BTW here is top 96
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/ui3l8e

 

[superjm]

Speaking of upsets, all 3 top seeds of Kagaribi were sent to losers

Lea 3 - 0 shuton
Asimo 3 - 1 ProtoBanham
Huto 3 - 0 Paseriman

And in fact Paseriman is already out of the tournament at 49th, falling to Hero 3-2. And that's just those three players, this tournament has been wild so far.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Results for Kagaribi 7

1. acola
2. Asimo
3. Gackt
4. DIO
5. Huto
5. Shuton
7. Lea
7. Kome
9. Yamanaction
9. Eim
9. Tea
9. Choco
13. Ryuoh
13. Jogibu
13. Hero
13. ProtoBanham
17. MASA
17. RYO
17. Konokururu
17. YOC
17. Kameme
17. Omuatsu
17. Yoshidora
17. KEN

acola is now the third player to win more then one major, alongside MkLeo and Sparg0. I'm starting to think this kid is genuinely top 5 on the planet and #1 in Japan. What an incredible rise.

 

[BitBitio]

totally not biased shoutout to Konokururu who now is the highest placement of any (solo!!!!) Kirby at a supermajor
Honestly he was playing so good and if he hadn’t had to face acola at top 48 he would legitimately have made top 8 most likely given the bracket. Wild stuff. I think that this character has way better matchups than he gets credits for. Konokururu actually beat T on the way up which, yeah, T is rusty, but also, the Link MU is supposed to be insanely hard for Kirby and T is still probably the best Link, or one of the best, in the world. Food for thought.
Hope Konokururu keeps up the good playing

 

[SapphSabre777]

Hot take: While / are amazing, no doubt...they aren't the character that should be looked at in the top 3. is the character, and has a shot at being best in the game.

 

[blackghost]

anyone else noticing the huge ressurgence of ryu lately?

 

[Arthur97]

Quite a take, especially that they shouldn't be top 3? Whether Steve is or not is nigh impossible to say right now, but it is worth noting how weird he is. So, naturally, counterplay may take longer to develop. Especially compared to the Aegis sisters whose counterplay developed exceptionally fast.

 

[NairWizard]

Results for Kagaribi 7
acola is now the third player to win more then one major, alongside MkLeo and Sparg0. I'm starting to think this kid is genuinely top 5 on the planet and #1 in Japan. What an incredible rise.

didn't Zackray and Proto win multiple Japanese majors historically? Tweek has won multiple; so has ESAM, and Kola. Or do you mean in a row?

Shoutouts to Asimo, who beat ProtoBanham, Tea, and Gackt. Best Shoto player by far.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

didn't Zackray and Proto win multiple Japanese majors historically? Tweek has won multiple; so has ESAM, and Kola. Or do you mean in a row?

Should've specified that I meant for this year.

 

[Cheryl~]

Between Vendetta beating Goblin by pulling out his Ryu at Glitch earlier this year, to Ikan's legendary losers run with solo Ryu at Genesis, and now Asimo's legendary run at Kagaribi 7, I think it's safe to assume that something with Ryu has just clicked in this meta, even moreso than Ken surprisingly.

It's also nice that all 4 of the FGC characters have had at least one great breakout at majors so far in 2022. Ken had Vendetta at Glitch, Ryu's had Asimo, Ikan, AND Vendetta, and Terry and Kazuya have both netted some great results due to Riddles co-maining them and getting two top 8s at majors so far.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

BTW Easy Freezie did a similar tier list on "Characters that have won/made top 8's at majors" as I did. He also mentioned runner ups.

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[blackghost]

Between Vendetta beating Goblin by pulling out his Ryu at Glitch earlier this year, to Ikan's legendary losers run with solo Ryu at Genesis, and now Asimo's legendary run at Kagaribi 7, I think it's safe to assume that something with Ryu has just clicked in this meta, even moreso than Ken surprisingly.

It's also nice that all 4 of the FGC characters have had at least one great breakout at majors so far in 2022. Ken had Vendetta at Glitch, Ryu's had Asimo, Ikan, AND Vendetta, and Terry and Kazuya have both netted some great results due to Riddles co-maining them and getting two top 8s at majors so far.

i think ryu is seeing resurgence over terry and ken because he is less affected by di and he can play the true range keep away game. also ryu is a nightmare to have to deal with if he has a lead thats literally what he is designed to capitalize on. Terry while the easiest of the three is also the one with the lowest ceiling

i remain one of the biggest kazuya supporters in this sub i think. character can do too much and the higher the level of the kaz player the smaller your margin of error is to beat him.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Dabuz posted his tier list

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[Minordeth]

i think ryu is seeing resurgence over terry and ken because he is less affected by di and he can play the true range keep away game. also ryu is a nightmare to have to deal with if he has a lead thats literally what he is designed to capitalize on. Terry while the easiest of the three is also the one with the lowest ceiling

Yeah, Idk if it's even a DI thing per se. The problem with Ken is that once the opponent knows the MU, the risk required to get in doesn't really exceed the inconsistent reward. Ryu can dictate some degree of pacing, which affords him a more flexible game plan.

Terry can dictate match pace more easily than either Ryu or Ken between Power Wave variations and sword legs. His reward for getting a hit is also more consistent than Ken, as SDI mixups are more easily accounted for, given his shorter combos.

I haven't seen his top reps really exploit COIL either. So, as DTCOIL is busted, I see him as reasonably unoptimized.

i remain one of the biggest kazuya supporters in this sub i think. character can do too much and the higher the level of the kaz player the smaller your margin of error is to beat him.

I'm up there with you. Kazuya is stupid good. It's amazing that so many people are doing well with him, despite the fact that I still don't see his top players use CDC>shield - outside of Ferps.

 

[Sucumbio]

Dabuz posted his tier list

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MK too low imho but it's not like these tiers are that polarized. Top vs mid is like +1/-1

Steve is a beast.

 

[blackghost]

Yeah, Idk if it's even a DI thing per se. The problem with Ken is that once the opponent knows the MU, the risk required to get in doesn't really exceed the inconsistent reward. Ryu can dictate some degree of pacing, which affords him a more flexible game plan.

Terry can dictate match pace more easily than either Ryu or Ken between Power Wave variations and sword legs. His reward for getting a hit is also more consistent than Ken, as SDI mixups are more easily accounted for, given his shorter combos.

I haven't seen his top reps really exploit COIL either. So, as DTCOIL is busted, I see him as reasonably unoptimized.



I'm up there with you. Kazuya is stupid good. It's amazing that so many people are doing well with him, despite the fact that I still don't see his top players use CDC>shield - outside of Ferps.

but isn't en's reward inconsistent BECAUSE he is vulnerable to DI on his shoryuken?

Ferps does use the most of kazuya kit of anyone ive seen. by far.

i think terry is a character that you can a. fight more straight-up than the other fgcs and b. if you know the basics like (how to di power dunk) terry starts having a much harder time.

 

[superjm]

Dabuz posted his tier list

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Is this the first tier list from a pro player to put Samus above ZSS?

You know I wanted to post a while ago that we might be entering a world where Samus is seen as better than her zero suit counterpart but that still sounded farfetched even for someone like me who's super optimistic about Samus. And yet here we are.

 

[NairWizard]

Is this the first tier list from a pro player to put Samus above ZSS?

You know I wanted to post a while ago that we might be entering a world where Samus is seen as better than her zero suit counterpart but that still sounded farfetched even for someone like me who's super optimistic about Samus. And yet here we are.

ESAM did the same a while back

 

[Rizen]

Hot take: While / are amazing, no doubt...they aren't the character that should be looked at in the top 3. is the character, and has a shot at being best in the game.

I don't think he's top 3 but has proven to be better than I thought. And I never thought poorly of him in the first place. Steve has amazing buttons that are both fast and have good range. He creates a wall not only with blocks but with his attacks and it can be very hard to get in on him. IMO he's somewhere in upper high tier.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

So, I guess we can talk about how characters will be affected by GIMR's new Slingshot tech.
Sparg0 found applications for it for Cloud

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[superjm]

So, I guess we can talk about how characters will be affected by GIMR's new Slingshot tech.

I'm thinking of how the big knock against Mythra's neutral all this time is her being unable to pressure shields safely.

Now I'm actually scared.

 

[NairWizard]

Well, slingshotting benefits everyone by giving them more movement options, but benefits those with bad shield pressure options disproportionately. Characters like Cloud who have -3 disjointed aerials do benefit, but less extremely. Slingshotting will make whiff punishing safe characters harder so characters like Cloud should do better against characters like Wario. This is notable, but not gamechanging.

Characters with bad shield pressure though are just going to skyrocket in neutral ability. I anticipate that the biggest buff will be to Mythra. Her most glaring weakness was bad shield pressure, exasperated by the difficulty of whiff punishing a cornered opponent. Slingshotted fast disjointed aerials makes her neutral much harder to deal with.

of course, it also makes her whiff punishing game on characters like Byleth harder to set up, so it’s not all grim imo

characters with poor OOS get a boost too since the value of strong OOS goes down as you add more completely safe aerials to the game

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Well, slingshotting benefits everyone by giving them more movement options, but benefits those with bad shield pressure options disproportionately. Characters like Cloud who have -3 disjointed aerials do benefit, but less extremely. Slingshotting will make whiff punishing safe characters harder so characters like Cloud should do better against characters like Wario. This is notable, but not gamechanging.

Characters with bad shield pressure though are just going to skyrocket in neutral ability. I anticipate that the biggest buff will be to Mythra. Her most glaring weakness was bad shield pressure, exasperated by the difficulty of whiff punishing a cornered opponent. Slingshotted fast disjointed aerials makes her neutral much harder to deal with.

of course, it also makes her whiff punishing game on characters like Byleth harder to set up, so it’s not all grim imo

characters with poor OOS get a boost too since the value of strong OOS goes down as you add more completely safe aerials to the game

It doesn't benefit ROB. He can't do it

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Leo showing some Aegis slingshot stuff

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[NotLiquid]

Really curious how Min Min works out with these changes. The last balance patch nerf specifically hit parts of her kit that this tech seems to expressly seek to compensate for. It should also make her more dangerous at playing keepaway, and allegedly the holdshot method might open up the ability for her to buffer an arms swap into an instant aerial Smash attack, which is another nice thing to have.

Also while this probably won't make him better than Lucina, this might be the antidote that the last few Marth players were dying for.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

Out of the loop, what is slingshot tech?

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Out of the loop, what is slingshot tech?

 

[Arthur97]

What a title. As if it hasn't changed gradually.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Tru4 posts what he feels will benefit the most from slingshot

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[Game7a1]

It doesn't benefit ROB. He can't do it

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Didn't take to debunk this, but slingshotting with ROB is slightly different from the rest of the cast.

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[blackghost]

cool for some character. kazuya and bayo get virtually nothing from this.
1. kazuya jump is too slow.
2. bayo short jump is too high.
kazuya mains would benefit more from perfecting his ground movement than this.
oh well. optmized with slingshot peach should be a menace.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

VoiD is going crazy with this slingshot tech for

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Fatality's thoughts on the tech for

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Based on clips and such, it seems this is benefitting speedy rushdown/whiff-punishing characters and sword characters the most.

 

[The_Bookworm]

VoiD is going crazy with this slingshot tech for

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Fatality's thoughts on the tech for

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Based on clips and such, it seems this is buffing speedy rushdown/whiff-punishing characters and sword characters the most.

VoiD was the first person (or one of) to take perfect and consistent advantage of perfect pivoting in SSB4 before it really caught on for some players. Makes sense that he would be a forerunner in slingshot as well.

Funnily enough, slingshot is not even a new tech. Someone (forgot who, typing this post on my phone) apparently discovered slingshot on the first month of Ultimate's release. Doubt GimR himself knew about that. It is just that it really didn't catch on and been long forgotten, until unearthed over 3 years later.

Additionally, a few players such as Lavish was already utilizing slingshot to some degree. A few Shoto & Terry players are wondering themselves if they have already been using the tech for their RAR back airs.

Regardless, GimR puts slingshot in a brand new light, shows how it done, the multiple different variations, and really goes into depth about the layers and versions of this tech.

It does make me wonder what other obscure tech been discovered but needs to be unearthed.

 

[Emblem Lord]

This is an amazing footsie tool that also allows you to scout for options while maintaining your space.

I like it.

Also hard disagree about Terry having a lower ceiling than shotos. But that's a separate conversation.

 

[blackghost]

This is an amazing footsie tool that also allows you to scout for options while maintaining your space.

I like it.

Also hard disagree about Terry having a lower ceiling than shotos. But that's a separate conversation.

for the characters that do get a benefit from it. I don't think my mains (bayo and kazuya) do.


im interested in your thoughts on terry vs ken and ryu.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

Ok, so if I’m not mistaken, this essentially removes all end lag when preformed correctly. If so, Hero can now combo moves from down-tilt! Down tilt Bair, Down tilt up air, down tilt zapple… So much potential! Misspaced forward air could be safe! Safe nair into instant zap! Forward tilt and retreating frizzle! The possibilities are limitless!!!

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

OrionStats update

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Not relevant on characters, but I'm surprised Low Tide City 2022 is considered less stacked then LMBM 2022 by OrionStats after all the DQs LMBM 2022 had. I know LMBM 2022 had some overseas representation with QuiK, but I thought Low Tide City felt more top player heavy, with Sparg0, Zomba, Lui$ and Maister being players who went to Low Tide but not LMBM 2022.

Ok, so if I’m not mistaken, this essentially removes all end lag when preformed correctly. If so, Hero can now combo moves from down-tilt! Down tilt Bair, Down tilt up air, down tilt zapple… So much potential! Misspaced forward air could be safe! Safe nair into instant zap! Forward tilt and retreating frizzle! The possibilities are limitless!!!

Uh, no. That's not how it works. Characters moves become harder to punish because of more accurate spacing (aka being further away from your opponent), not because of less landing lag or endlag on attacks. It means moves now have more shield pressure and it's very good movement tool. It won't help create new combos or kill confirms.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ok, so if I’m not mistaken, this essentially removes all end lag when preformed correctly. If so, Hero can now combo moves from down-tilt! Down tilt Bair, Down tilt up air, down tilt zapple… So much potential! Misspaced forward air could be safe! Safe nair into instant zap! Forward tilt and retreating frizzle! The possibilities are limitless!!!

It does not remove end lag. It allows you to take advantage of the buffer windows to maximize whatever frames of advantage you have to work with when it comes to using air drift for combos and set-ups. It does not give you more to work with so much as let's characters more easily access what is already there, but could not consistently use due to human limitations.

You know how in anime you have that elder that unlocks a character's "true power"? That's Slingshot. Just maximizing what already exists.

for the characters that do get a benefit from it. I don't think my mains (bayo and kazuya) do.


im interested in your thoughts on terry vs ken and ryu.

Kazuya does benefit. People are already coming up with new combos and shield break set-ups. Jumping to conclusions on day 1? Nah. Just mess with the tech and be a student of the game. Let the game show you a conclusion. Don't be in a rush to reach one. Besides Kazuya's meta still has way more juice even if this did not help him. Kaz players aren't even doing CDC to break past zoning yet.

As far as Terry compared to shoto's, I would love to know why you think their ceiling is higher when Terry has access to better burst options which demands respect and sets the pace for him to Power Wave. That alone makes him more complex with a higher ceiling than Ken who essentially must play around his opponents and cannot make his opponent do anything. Ken as a character cannot enforce his will. He relies heavily on vortex type mix-ups that let him create scramble situations which can snowball out of control for his opponent if they do not choose the correct defensive option. I think perhaps you are so used to seeing Riddles play a certain way that you may think Terry has a low ceiling comparatively when he doesn't. His set-play is arguably the best of the FGC chars, especially his ability to trap landings. Riddles simply does not do it. He relies heavily on "Abare" i.e converting stray hits into combos for damage and kills.

Ryu is also fairly one dimensional, but he is quite good at what he does and can sit on a lead with the greatest of ease. His set-play is easier to see and abuse compared to Ken as well. Uair knocks you up. Tatsu knocks you up. So do an ender that knocks the opponent up and throw a hadouken as they fall so they have something to deal with. Apply pressure to their landing. Terry has VERY similar traps, but with even more options thanks to Burn Knuckle and Crackshoot. Riddles just refuses to try to trap landings. He won't even try it with Kazuya even though EWGF is THE anti-air of the gods. Why he doesn't do it much, I cannot say. Might just be his mindset to focus hardcore on conversions. I presume this is why his Kazuya is superior to his Terry. Kazuya gets much more out of stray neutral wins compared to literally every other character in the game.

However, when we look at shoto players they DO engage in set-play, landing traps, and tech traps. So if the strongest Terry is not doing those things, but the strongest shoto's are and the results are comparable between them; doesn't it follow that if the strongest Terry DID start utilizing those aspects of his game that the gap in results would widen?

Please share your thoughts.