Competitive Smash consumer action

[Paquito]

I mentioned the main three I heard.

What's the *context* of those complaints. What was the event? Who made the complaints? What was their background with Smash? etc

 

[Vigilante]

Can we just ignore the Smash 4 defense force and go back to the topic at hand? Please list the main points you'd like to adress in a consumer letter as briefly as possible. Sicne we didn't get news, I'll start drafting something over the weekend and post it here for you guys to critique.

 

[Bleck]

topic at hand?

I already posted the most reasonable response to this dumb topic

 

[hype machine]

Can we just ignore the Smash 4 defense force and go back to the topic at hand? Please list the main points you'd like to adress in a consumer letter as briefly as possible. Sicne we didn't get news, I'll start drafting something over the weekend and post it here for you guys to critique.

Honestly there's no point in trying to convince Sakurai to make smash more competitive. I'm pretty sure he hates it when other people try and tell him how to make his own game. He also hates, hates,hates competitive smash. He said it himself if you want to take smash seriously you should play a diffrent game. Does that sound like a developer who cares about the competitive scene in smash? Don't take this the wrong way personally I hate the direction smash went after melee

 

[JCOnyx]

Why not, I'll make a quick list.

Arial landing lag slightly reduced across the board and shield stun very slightly increased. Both of these in combination should allow for a few specific arials to actually create shield pressure. At least have some moves that are 0 to +1 on shield.
Certain Dash Attacks are too safe on shield and should have slightly increased ending lag. Perhaps have the attacks momentum be reduced even further when connecting with a shield as well.
Very slight increase to the amount of frames one is helpless during a ledge trump, making this tactic a more reliable tool to use while edge guarding.
Since a lot of people complain about this, a very very slight increase to the end lag of dodge rolls. TBH, they are almost perfect for what they are meant to be used for, but because of how easy it is to spam it has created a lot of bad habits among certain players.

There is more I could add of course, but I hate posting over mobile so this'll be all for now.

EDIT: Almost forgot the most important one, momentum transfer for jumps.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Increase the game's pace. We shouldn't have to go all the way down to 2 stocks in order to finish a bracket on time. Biggest problem I see with this, besides shields, is all the recovery power creep, it makes PM 3.02 look like 64. Nerf all of that. I also think edgehogging was an important mechanic that ought to exist, being able to always sweetspot the ledge shouldn't be guaranteed and you should be forced to consider aiming above the stage instead sometimes. Perhaps a suitable compromise would be to make it so that the ledge can't be stolen while the opponent is in their invincibility frames, meaning that in order to edgehog you have to time it perfectly. That way ledge stealing can still exist without completely removing edgehogging from the game.

Better mobility and approach options. Lower landing lag goes without saying here, aerial approaches suck right now. The other thing I think is needed more than anything else is dashdancing. It's a simple and intuitive mechanic that makes otherwise crappy dashes far more flexible by granting the ability to juke and feint rather than being fully committed the second you start a dash. I don't expect wavedashing to ever return, but I don't think dashdancing is too much to ask. Also, how about undoing 1.0.4's removal of DACUS? I have no idea why that was necessary.

Lastly, nerf shields, for the love of god nerf shields. Add 2-3 more frames of shieldstun and reduce how quickly they regenerate. Enough to make shield pressure possible again. Maybe also add 1-2 more vulnerable frames on rolls while we're at it.

And then buff Puff pls, gib pound range back

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Can we just ignore the Smash 4 defense force and go back to the topic at hand? Please list the main points you'd like to adress in a consumer letter as briefly as possible. Sicne we didn't get news, I'll start drafting something over the weekend and post it here for you guys to critique.

When you don't acknowledge a lot of legitimate issues and counter points with you sending this letter. There is no point and is a giant waste of time.

Try if you want, but this letter I guarantee will do nothing but show what a very very small majority of people think in an already kinda split competitive smash community.

 

[hype machine]

When you don't acknowledge a lot of legitimate issues and counter points with you sending this letter. There is no point and is a giant waste of time.

Try if you want, but this letter I guarantee will do nothing but show what a very very small majority of people think in an already kinda split competitive smash community.

It's a small majority because of Sakurais attempt on killing the completive scene when he made brawl. If brawl wasn't an anti competitive game the scene would be much larger then it is today

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It's a small majority because of Sakurais attempt on killing the completive scene when he made brawl. If brawl wasn't an anti competitive game the scene would be much larger then it is today

It's a small majority because a few upset people are not even a fraction of the people that buy the game, Brawl or Smash 4.

 

[hype machine]

It's a small majority because a few upset people are not even a fraction of the people that buy the game, Brawl or Smash 4.

Every competitive scene starts out as a small majority but Sakurai killed the chance of it becoming more, causals are the majority but the two can coexist

 

[Bleck]

the only people trying to kill the competitive scene for the game are butthurt Melee enthusiasts

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Every competitive scene starts out as a small majority but Sakurai killed the chance of it becoming more, causals are the majority but the two can coexist

Yes they can and do, the issue is sending a letter in of disappointment when the large majority are in favor and support the games as is.

The letter will not make them patch the game or 180 it it change smash 5 if it happens.

Like another said early, if you want a major change. PM, mods, fan games are your main chance.

Not sending a letter in where the small majority vs the large majority that like it.

 

[hype machine]

the only people trying to kill the competitive scene for the game are butthurt Melee enthusiasts

Exactly how are melee fans hurting the competitive scene

 

[MegaMissingno]

Wanting shields to be nerfed is literally killing the competitive scene!

 

[GrandHc]

Yes they can and do, the issue is sending a letter in of disappointment when the large majority are in favor and support the games as is.

The letter will not make them patch the game or 180 it it change smash 5 if it happens.

Like another said early, if you want a major change. PM, mods, fan games are your main chance.

Not sending a letter in where the small majority vs the large majority that like it.

Honestly, as of 2015, Super Smash Bros as a franchise is about to hit major levels of recognition and growth rivaling Street Fighter...... that's freaking huge for a franchise in competitive play. It is and will be almost impossible for us as an entire community to grow without Nintendo ever really getting involved. Things like mods and fan games will be pushed aside for the titles that are official and to the public for support, Smash as an official title will always shine bright in their eyes. In all due respect to the PM dev team and the Touhou game, if Nintendo wants to support the scene, I do not feel these games should be our uniter.

As the growing competitive community, we do deserve the right to ask, not force, not demand, but to ask for our voices to be heard for a competitive extension to Smash. Hopefully the composition of this is something that can express the ENTIRE communities sentiments, at least. I'm so sure Nintendo has heard our plights before, but I'm also so sure that what they heard was no always as organized, structured , and civil in regards to what we want. If anything, this letter could be compromised under the intentions to show we want a competitive extension of the games made rather than dedicating an entire game towards us. At least in my case, if Sakurai said they balanced the Sm4sh engine as well as little character tweaks (Note: I'm not advocating and will not advocate anything just seen as melee), but would literally isolate the mode to offline or give it the for glory treatment and said I had to pay, within reasonable price, I would buy it and support it.

I want to see this letter for the purpose that is we want a little more and are willing to compromise for it. I don't this to rip casuals of the game they love nor to enforce the competitive communities ideals upon the series. And even if this fails, to which i can see it truly doing, so what? If the word can get out about this and more from each community could share their inputs, at the very most extreme, we can say that the general competitive community can together for one united goal. I know we are far from organized, will have clashing ideals, and may end up getting this thread closed several times in it's iterations, but it can be done.

TL;DR: This letter's purpose should be for the effort put in by the community, not for the result.

 

[hype machine]

Wanting shields to be nerfed is literally killing the competitive scene!

They are never going to be nerfed, most melee fans don't want anything to do with smash 4 and the ones who are currently complaining about shields is the smash 4 community itself. Also the reason it will never be nerfed is because of sakurai being stubborn and will never acknowledge the completive community of smash.

 

[Bleck]

Exactly how are melee fans hurting the competitive scene

people who are saying Smash 4 is a bad game competitively because of criticisms that only make sense in the context of how similar it is or is not to Melee

 

[hype machine]

Some people here are saying sending a letter is a stupid idea. It's not. The problem is the timing. Smash 4 is already made and there are no plans for future patches, this idea should have been done before the release of smash 4. Even then getting sakurai to agree would be very difficult because of his stubbornness and his doubt and hate for the competitive community, this includes smash 4.

 

[hype machine]

people who are saying Smash 4 is a bad game competitively because of criticisms that only make sense in the context of how similar it is or is not to Melee

The hate from melee fans wasn't as nearly as bad as it was in brawl, it also barely hurts the competetive growth for smash 4. Nobody is going to stop playing smash 4 just because a few people are hating on the game.

 

[Bleck]

competitive*

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Exactly how are melee fans hurting the competitive scene

I wouldn't say it's just Melee fans but the hostile attitudes overall are where the problems are.

Honestly, as of 2015, Super Smash Bros as a franchise is about to hit major levels of recognition and growth rivaling Street Fighter...... that's freaking huge for a franchise in competitive play. It is and will be almost impossible for us as an entire community to grow without Nintendo ever really getting involved. Things like mods and fan games will be pushed aside for the titles that are official and to the public for support, Smash as an official title will always shine bright in their eyes. In all due respect to the PM dev team and the Touhou game, if Nintendo wants to support the scene, I do not feel these games should be our uniter.

As the growing competitive community, we do deserve the right to ask, not force, not demand, but to ask for our voices to be heard for a competitive extension to Smash. Hopefully the composition of this is something that can express the ENTIRE communities sentiments, at least. I'm so sure Nintendo has heard our plights before, but I'm also so sure that what they heard was no always as organized, structured , and civil in regards to what we want. If anything, this letter could be compromised under the intentions to show we want a competitive extension of the games made rather than dedicating an entire game towards us. At least in my case, if Sakurai said they balanced the Sm4sh engine as well as little character tweaks (Note: I'm not advocating and will not advocate anything just seen as melee), but would literally isolate the mode to offline or give it the for glory treatment and said I had to pay, within reasonable price, I would buy it and support it.

I want to see this letter for the purpose that is we want a little more and are willing to compromise for it. I don't this to rip casuals of the game they love nor to enforce the competitive communities ideals upon the series. And even if this fails, to which i can see it truly doing, so what? If the word can get out about this and more from each community could share their inputs, at the very most extreme, we can say that the general competitive community can together for one united goal. I know we are far from organized, will have clashing ideals, and may end up getting this thread closed several times in it's iterations, but it can be done.

TL;DR: This letter's purpose should be for the effort put in by the community, not for the result.

Part of issue that would still remain is that your not just the smash community, there are a lot of Smash 4 players who actually very fond and love how it turned out. People want to address that but they have to argue about this with Nintendo, the casual crowd and the competitive scene that likes Smash 4.

People think with the letter it is addressing it for all of us, when really it's the smaller than the whole crowd issue even within the competitive community.

But I do like the sentiments to have your voice at least heard so kudos for that. I just don't think this is the solution for change on this level.

Some people here are saying sending a letter is a stupid idea. It's not. The problem is the timing. Smash 4 is already made and there are no plans for future patches, this idea should have been done before the release of smash 4. Even then getting sakurai to agree would be very difficult because of his stubbornness and his doubt and hate for the competitive community, this includes smash 4.

They still might patch, they just said they aren't planning on a patch right now.

Mistranslated and people jumping the gun.

 

[hype machine]

competitive*

You know you lost when you have nothing else to say other than to correct my spelling after speed typing that message.

 

[hype machine]

Look I don't hate smash 4, it's too early to say if it's a good game to play competitively I play it myself, but I find myself playing it less as the time passes. the metagame doesn't look too bright, I just don't see how anyone at evo will want to pick up the game when half of top 8 is using diddy kong and doing the same combo over and over again. but I will say brawl was the absolute worst thing to happen to competitive smash.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Look I don't hate smash 4, it's too early to say if it's a good game to play competitively I play it myself, but I find myself playing it less as the time passes. the metagame doesn't look too bright, I just don't see how anyone at evo will want to pick up the game when half of top 8 is using diddy kong and doing the same combo over and over again. but I will say brawl was the absolute worst thing to happen to competitive smash.

Sounds like Fox.

 

[GrandHc]

@ #HBC | Red Ryu I get that, I like smash 4 and support it as it is now and full n well know that there are going to be potential patches. Really, the letter shouldn't target a Smash game per se, but the overall scope of Smash as an entity. If anything, I'm more paranoid that the community will further split over the further development of Sm4sh and more Nintendo involvement.

 

[Bleck]

You know you lost when you have nothing else to say other than to correct my spelling after speed typing that message.

nah man it's more like I can't bring myself to take your arguments seriously when you can't even spell the community's favorite buzzword

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

@ #HBC | Red Ryu I get that, I like smash 4 and support it as it is now and full n well know that there are going to be potential patches. Really, the letter shouldn't target a Smash game per se, but the overall scope of Smash as an entity. If anything, I'm more paranoid that the community will further split over the further development of Sm4sh and more Nintendo involvement.

The biggest issue I see is trying to work around with Project M if Nintendo gets more involved.

Scope could be something to have them looking at but a real question is what is the scope of what they should be including given how much Smash 4 is right now. Can it be expanded to include more in certain demographics as is?

 

[hype machine]

Sounds like Fox.

I do agree fox is overused in top level melee, but the difference is that fox uses all his moves and doesn't use the same combos, he also takes a lot of skill to use. Did you know that the best fox users in melee are still improving till this day, he has a ridiculously high skill cap. Also fox plays a more aggressive style while diddy kong is just baiting out grabs and throwing bananas

 

[JayTheUnseen]

nah man it's more like I can't bring myself to take your arguments seriously when you can't even spell the community's favorite buzzword

That's sounds like an excuse because you've lost,no offense.

Anyway,again,we're getting off course.

 

[Bleck]

That's sounds like an excuse because you've lost,no offense.

yeah man I totally lost an argument 'cause someone made a vague assertion about interactions between hundreds if not thousands of people and how the manner in which they interact is definitively not in any capacity similar to what I've said is likely the case

that totally makes a lot of sense, thank you for pointing it out to me

 

[Paradoxium]

Lol I don't know who this mysterious melee crowd with this evil plan to terminate smash 4 is. From what I've seen so far the melee community has been very enthusiastic about playing smash 4, they've been running it alongside melee at a lot of tournaments ever since it's release. The only Melee players who **** on smash 4 are the newbs who think they're good because they can multishine, they're brainwashed.

Now in my opinion the smash 4 hate is coming from Pm elitists and smash 4 players. Some smash 4 players hate on a lot of he characters and mechanics, the pm players are salty that smash 4 is replacing them.

 

[JCOnyx]

Don't start placing the blame on PM players. I only play PM and S4 and enjoy both games for different reasons and there are a lot of others just like me.

And just because I consider PM the best smash game doesn't mean I'm a PM elitist :/

 

[hype machine]

Lol I don't know who this mysterious melee crowd with this evil plan to terminate smash 4 is. From what I've seen so far the melee community has been very enthusiastic about playing smash 4, they've been running it alongside melee at a lot of tournaments ever since it's release. The only Melee players who **** on smash 4 are the newbs who think they're good because they can multishine, they're brainwashed.

Now in my opinion the smash 4 hate is coming from Pm elitists and smash 4 players. Some smash 4 players hate on a lot of he characters and mechanics, the pm players are salty that smash 4 is replacing them.

If you're talking about people like me I don't actually hate the game, I only hate the smash 4 elitist, and sakurai the most. It's just recently some smash 4 fans have been celebrating that project m got kicked off from apex and is even getting it's streaming cut off, they continue to praise Sakurai when he's against competitive smash in general, smash 4 fans manipulate what he says and changes the meaning of what he actually meant. Yea I agree I'm really salty that project m is being cut off From major tournoments and streams and we also don't get the Same luxury that smash 4 fans get by automatically making it into evo, and getting sponsored by nintendo on top of that they are falsely praising sakurai. Too bad there's no way to argue with these guys without sounding like a melee elietist.

 

[GrandHc]

Can't we all agree that ALL elitism in this thread is ignorant and misplaced.

 

[Paradoxium]

when i said pm elitists I didn't mean the entire pm fan base, I meant the vocal brainwashed minority.

fiy I absolutely hate smash 4, but I support it anyways.

and lol at the Sakurai fanboys, he literally said smash 4 has no competitive future. I don't see how any competitive smash 4 player can support him after that.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I do agree fox is overused in top level melee, but the difference is that fox uses all his moves and doesn't use the same combos, he also takes a lot of skill to use. Did you know that the best fox users in melee are still improving till this day, he has a ridiculously high skill cap. Also fox plays a more aggressive style while diddy kong is just baiting out grabs and throwing bananas

All of this applies to other smash games.

Top players always change and improve, unless people think Salem winning with Zero Suit in Brawl was people just throwing to him.

Fox dash dancing isn't the same while shooting Lasers? Because it is a lot of what M2K and Mango do to Armada when he plays Peach. Some characters are different in play style as well.

Every smash character more or less uses a lot of their kit even more so in some games when people fine tune their kits like they did in PM and Smash 4.

when i said pm elitists I didn't mean the entire pm fan base, I meant the vocal brainwashed minority.

fiy I absolutely hate smash 4, but I support it anyways.

and lol at the Sakurai fanboys, he literally said smash 4 has no competitive future. I don't see how any competitive smash 4 player can support him after that.

The correct quote was, "Smash has no future if only focused on competitive players."

People jump the gun when translating him and the news articles all corrected this.

I'm not even a fanboy of the guy, but people keep jumping the gun on really badly translations and then printing articles on it on the news front.

At least SmashCapps corrected his instead of the patching one which people corrected everywhere else but here.

 

[Paradoxium]

The correct quote was, "Smash has no future if only focused on competitive players."

People jump the gun when translating him and the news articles all corrected this.

Oh well that changes my perspective greatly. He went from being an asshole to a delusional casual. Like everyone has said already, you can find a balance between casual and competitive, I think he has a skewed perspective on what modern gamers think fun is.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Oh well that changes my perspective greatly. He went from being an ******* to a delusional casual. Like everyone has said already, you can find a balance between casual and competitive, I think he has a skewed perspective on what modern gamers think fun is.

You also have to take into account he's Japanese and the Western audience may or may not be his first priority.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Oh well that changes my perspective greatly. He went from being an ******* to a delusional casual. Like everyone has said already, you can find a balance between casual and competitive, I think he has a skewed perspective on what modern gamers think fun is.

He's kinda right though.

A lot of fighting games don't sell or perform well if you alienate any other audience. Smash at it's core, works best as a party fighter for every single smash games.

It just happens it can also work for comp play as well.

 

[hype machine]

He's kinda right though.

A lot of fighting games don't sell or perform well if you alienate any other audience. Smash at it's core, works best as a party fighter for every single smash games.

It just happens it can also work for comp play as well.

The two can definitely co exist. When I first played melee at a friends house when I was 9 I still had a lot of fun and none of us even knew about the existence of l cancel or wavedashing, l canceling and wavedashing is what successfully separates the competitive community from the casuals. Most casuals only want to play as their favorite characters and play them against their other favorite characters from different franchises. One can argue that they like smash 4 competitively over melee competitivly but they also said the same thing about brawl, and look where brawl is today despite having a free pass to evo being born in the age of YouTube and twitch
and also is available on a much popular console and even getting a head start from melees popularity.