Competitive Smash consumer action

[Paradoxium]

He's kinda right though.

A lot of fighting games don't sell or perform well if you alienate any other audience. Smash at it's core, works best as a party fighter for every single smash games.

It just happens it can also work for comp play as well.

He was right when he said smash has no future if it is directed only towards the competitive players, but then he goes and directs it only at the casuals. I think smash is the type of game that can be played at any level, and over the years we've seen that it can. Smash 4 is good competitively, but it can be so much better. And he can definitely improve the competitive side without sacrificing anything from the casual side.

But he wont do it, because that isn't his focus. Hes more focused on trying to eliminate the whole feeling of losing.

But he needs to understand that as long as someone wants win they're always going to have that feeling of losing. The more they want to win, the more that feeling is gonna sting. He needs to get that into his head. Some people play without caring if they win or lose, but there will always be people trying really hard to win. And that's what I feel like he tries to alienate. Not necessarily the competitive crowd, but the crowd who wants to win.

That's just the type of vibe I get out of him anyways

 

[hype machine]

All of this applies to other smash games.

Top players always change and improve, unless people think Salem winning with Zero Suit in Brawl was people just throwing to him.

Fox dash dancing isn't the same while shooting Lasers? Because it is a lot of what M2K and Mango do to Armada when he plays Peach. Some characters are different in play style as well.

Every smash character more or less uses a lot of their kit even more so in some games when people fine tune their kits like they did in PM and Smash 4.



The correct quote was, "Smash has no future if only focused on competitive players."

People jump the gun when translating him and the news articles all corrected this.

I'm not even a fanboy of the guy, but people keep jumping the gun on really badly translations and then printing articles on it on the news front.

At least SmashCapps corrected his instead of the patching one which people corrected everywhere else but here.

If you're getting lazered by a fox it's because you're being defensive.

that may be a Mistranslation, but he has said and done other things in the past that are against competitive smash, also I disagree with his viewpoint on smash, he acts like losing is the worst thing ever, and thinks that casual and completive skill floors can't coexist.

 

[Bleck]

And he can definitely improve the competitive side without sacrificing anything from the casual side.

yeah people keep saying stuff like this but uh the reason he doesn't do it is 'cause it isn't actually true

 

[Paradoxium]

yeah people keep saying stuff like this but uh the reason he doesn't do it is 'cause it isn't actually true

Lol he removed all of Rosalina's bs infinites and I doubt any casuals noticed a difference. I also doubt any casuals are actually skilled enough to even know those infinites even existed, so in reality it improved the competitive side of the game without sacrificing anything from the casual side.

 

[hype machine]

yeah people keep saying stuff like this but uh the reason he doesn't do it is 'cause it isn't actually true

No it's definitely possible l canceling separates the casuals from the people who play it competitively. Casuals will have no idea about lcanceling existence and will play the way sakurai visioned it. While the competitive community will get a chance to thrive.

 

[Bleck]

Lol he removed all of Rosalina's bs infinites and I doubt any casuals noticed a difference. I also doubt any casuals are actually skilled enough to even know those infinites even existed, so in reality it improved the competitive side of the game without sacrificing anything from the casual side.

No it's definitely possible l canceling separates the casuals from the people who play it competitively. Casuals will have no idea about lcanceling existence and will play the way sakurai visioned it. While the competitive community will get a chance to thrive.

yeah see both of your arguments here hinge on the idea that there are these magical people called "casuals" who have a very specific threshold of knowledge about whatever video games they choose play and Sakurai has somehow committed a crime by marketing games towards "them" to the detriment of "competitive gaming"

in reality, stuff is - surprise - a lot more complicated than that, and Smash 4 doesn't really have any design choices that could definitively be argued to be anti-competitive (like, for instance, tripping was in Brawl)

the only things that people see as problems with Smash 4 are things where it's dissimilar to Melee (i.e people complaining that shieldstun is low, even though the only reason they think shieldstun being high is a good thing is because that's how it works in Melee)

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If you're getting lazered by a fox it's because you're being defensive.

that may be a Mistranslation, but he has said and done other things in the past that are against competitive smash, also I disagree with his viewpoint on smash, he acts like losing is the worst thing ever, and thinks that casual and completive skill floors can't coexist.

Or he is camping you to approach and he knows it can be dangerous for you.

Ie what you claimed Diddy does. In the end, it might seem Melee is a lot more aggressive, but honestly at top levels of play it really isn't.

Top notch combos and links yes, very aggressive? Not really as much as people think. A lot of smash ends up like that but it's not impossible to approach in any of them.

 

[hype machine]

yeah see both of your arguments here hinge on the idea that there are these magical people called "casuals" who have a very specific threshold of knowledge about whatever video games they choose play and Sakurai has somehow committed a crime by marketing games towards "them" to the detriment of "competitive gaming"

in reality, stuff is - surprise - a lot more complicated than that, and Smash 4 doesn't really have any design choices that could definitively be argued to be anti-competitive (like, for instance, tripping was in Brawl)

the only things that people see as problems with Smash 4 are things where it's dissimilar to Melee (i.e people complaining that shieldstun is low, even though the only reason they think shieldstun being high is a good thing is because that's how it works in Melee)

I consider casuals to be 8-13 year olds who just want to play smash 4 for the characters and the game mode, who don't really care about the games engine at all, they don't care about how fast or slow your character can move, neither how much ending lag moves have, they just want to play their favorite character and use wacky items. By the way you're talking it sounds like you don't even play smash 4 competitively, smash 4 isn't anti competitive Iike brawl was, but that doesn't mean the competitive community will thrive, the game just isn't that fast, there's no flashy combos, there's nothing special about it, which is bad for viewers, and eventually people are going to stop playing it once they get bored and all the fake hype goes away, just like brawl. But at the same time you guys have it so easy, you get a free pass to evo to show your game off, melee had to earn that **** and it took 5 years from nothing to get there, there are also other things you guys get which will probobly make smash 4 competitive a success but for the wrong reasons. Also the shield stun isn't enough to fix the game I don't know why melee fans are even arguing about that when there are much bigger problems with the game. I think melee fans should just ignore smash 4 completely, and just stick to melee. It's really hard to tell whats in store for smash 4 as time passes by. Oh and about sakurai I don't think he committed a crime but he has a strange viewpoint on how he sees gaming.

Or he is camping you to approach and he knows it can be dangerous for you.

Ie what you claimed Diddy does. In the end, it might seem Melee is a lot more aggressive, but honestly at top levels of play it really isn't.

Top notch combos and links yes, very aggressive? Not really as much as people think. A lot of smash ends up like that but it's not impossible to approach in any of them.

There is defensive play in melee but there's more offensive than defensive, and to the viewers it's a thrill to watch.

 

[Paradoxium]

yeah see both of your arguments here hinge on the idea that there are these magical people called "casuals" who have a very specific threshold of knowledge about whatever video games they choose play and Sakurai has somehow committed a crime by marketing games towards "them" to the detriment of "competitive gaming"

No I think it's totally fine that he markets his games towards a certain audience, but it kinda sucks when players form a community for competitive play and he makes no attempt to help them in anyway, even if helping them wont hurt his intended audience in anyway. And when I say casual I'm referring to the intended audience the game was marketed too.

in reality, stuff is - surprise - a lot more complicated than that, and Smash 4 doesn't really have any design choices that could definitively be argued to be anti-competitive (like, for instance, tripping was in Brawl) the only things that people see as problems with Smash 4 are things where it's dissimilar to Melee (i.e people complaining that shieldstun is low, even though the only reason they think shieldstun being high is a good thing is because that's how it works in Melee)

I never said Smash 4 wasn't competitive. I actually said Smash 4 was a good competitive game. Mechanics being different shouldn't make a game less competitive. Just because shields are different doesn't mean its worse, it just means you have to handle them with a different strategy. And that could be said for a lot of Smash 4 mechanics. It's not that their less competitive, it's that they just have to be handled differently.

(But then again you can use that argument to make literally everything seem competitive. There are many factors that decide how competitive something is. Mainly popularity.)


But there are design flaws that you can say are uncompetitive. The most important one is balance, and pretty much every smash game suffers from this. But he isn't doing anymore balance patches so that's not gonna change anytime soon

Also the reason people worship maylay so hard is because you have the highest degree of control over your character than in any other smash game. That's why in every Pm update they come out with a bunch of weird bug/engine fixes that you never knew existed, all of those were intentionally put in the game by Sakurai in order to give you the most control over your character as possible. Those mechanics were lost in the jump form melee to brawl, and that is one of the reasons why some of the hard core melee players can never make the switch to a different smash game. They aren't tourny tards, they just prefer melee, the same way people prefer pm and smash 4.

 

[MegaMissingno]

people who are saying Smash 4 is a bad game competitively because of criticisms that only make sense in the context of how similar it is or is not to Melee

Writing off legitimate complaints like that is ridiculous. You don't have to agree, but please stop saying it's only about Melee.

 

[Bleck]

I consider casuals to be 8-13 year olds

doesn't matter

And when I say casual I'm referring

doesn't matter

Writing off legitimate complaints like that is ridiculous. You don't have to agree, but please stop saying it's only about Melee.

can you explain to me why shieldstun being low (i.e shielding an attack being a legitimate defensive option) is a bad thing without making any reference at all to Melee

 

[JayTheUnseen]

For the last time,this topic is about writing a letter to Nintendo voicing the complaints of competitive Smash consumers,NOT whether said complaints are warranted.nor about whether the letter itself is needed,nor which is better between Melee and Smash 4.

I swear if I were a mod I'd issue out infractions right now.We've had about 1 page of discussion pertaining to the topic the thread was made for and 3 pages involving an off topic argument.

I've already mentioned this TWICE before.
Please stop now,or I WILL report this.

 

[Bleck]

I already posted the most reasonable response to this dumb topic

and just in case you missed it

some people should just get together and make a game that plays like Melee instead of expecting Nintendo to cater to a hilariously small group of people who want things out of a game that it was never meant to have to the detriment of the game itself

also, stop minimodding, bub

 

[GrandHc]

The biggest issue I see is trying to work around with Project M if Nintendo gets more involved.

Scope could be something to have them looking at but a real question is what is the scope of what they should be including given how much Smash 4 is right now. Can it be expanded to include more in certain demographics as is?

l8 response but that's a good question. As of now, one of the focuses I guess could be to make the current sm4sh and future creations to be the best competitively they can be. I know it's a broad statement, but it is a bit hard to narrow the scope of something that each iteration is different while they only have to compete with themselves as a platform fighter.

Weirdly enough, I suggest people play a game like Brawl minus or Zeus. Obviously the balance isn't there intentionally, it is a pretty good balance between some good of brawl and melee. If this is the direction of this letter is something like that, it be good but i would also like to hear more outside input before I truly can say that it's a good model.

 

[Paradoxium]

Wow we were having a pretty good conversation too, and then you just ran it into the ground Bleck.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

and just in case you missed it




also, stop minimodding, bub

I understand why you want to continue to de-rail the topic,don't worry bro

 

[MegaMissingno]

can you explain to me why shieldstun being low (i.e shielding an attack being a legitimate defensive option) is a bad thing without making any reference at all to Melee

Because way too few safe-on-shield moves exist, and many characters cannot apply any form of shield pressure at all. Shields are an overwhelmingly powerful defensive option, too powerful. And that's why so many of us feel the game is too defensive.

 

[Bleck]

Because way too few safe-on-shield moves exist, and many characters cannot apply any form of shield pressure at all.

1) why does the game need moves that are safe on shield

2) why do characters need to be able to apply shield pressure

Shields are an overwhelmingly powerful defensive option, too powerful.

too powerful compared to what

 

[Paradoxium]

Because way too few safe-on-shield moves exist, and many characters cannot apply any form of shield pressure at all. Shields are an overwhelmingly powerful defensive option, too powerful. And that's why so many of us feel the game is too defensive.

But this doesnt make the game less competitive at all. It just means you have to respect shields a lot more.

 

[PlateProp]

@ Vigilante I think you're better off abandoning the cancer that is this thread :/

 

[hype machine]

@ Vigilante I think you're better off abandoning the cancer that is this thread :/

Nobody is acctually mad at each other were just debating, the guy who made the topic tried to bring it back into the main focus but someone called his topic stupid and continued to rant then I disagreed with his rant and now others are disagreeing with each other and if one stops disagreeing, the other will feel like they won, and it never ends

 

[GrandHc]

@ Vigilante I think you're better off abandoning the cancer that is this thread :/

Where is the cancer? everyone is just disagreeing with each other and that is actually more healthy. Besides I do not think much would get done if this thread only agreed with each other all the time.

 

[PlateProp]

Where is the cancer? everyone is just disagreeing with each other and that is actually more healthy. Besides I do not think much would get done if this thread only agreed with each other all the time.

Vigilante is asking for people's jnput on a letter, but instead you all come up in here and argue about stuff


Seems pretty cancerous

 

[hype machine]

Vigilante is asking for people's jnput on a letter, but instead you all come up in here and argue about stuff


Seems pretty cancerous

Dude ok I agree with the letter and the idea of making the game more competitive, but will it work? Do they care enough to work with us? Also is this the right time? Is there another smash game coming? Idk you tell me. I want future smash games to be more competitively viable but let's work with what we have, like project m.

Also if we are going to write a letter we have to translate this ourselves, we don't want any mistranslations happening and end up coming out as arrogant.

 

[MegaMissingno]

1) why does the game need moves that are safe on shield

2) why do characters need to be able to apply shield pressure



too powerful compared to what

Why should shields trump absolutely everything? Having some moves that are safe on block to apply pressure with is a pretty fundamental part of most every fighting game. Without it defense is too powerful compared to offense, shields are too powerful compared to trying to beat shields.

 

[JCOnyx]

1) why does the game need moves that are safe on shield

2) why do characters need to be able to apply shield pressure

too powerful compared to what

Every FG has a concept we like to call "block-strings". Being able to apply relatively safe pressure on block is a necessary staple to almost any "competitive" fighter. Smash is a bit different in this regard though, with chatacters having only certain options available to them in shield and shield grabbing in itself can lead to way more damage then mashing a DP (unless in that fighter you can combo after a DP... which would be stupid as ****). In my opinion, smash has yet to get the right amount of shield stun in any game in the series. We don't talk about 64 shields, Melee had a bit too much and Smash 4 has too little. Trust me Bleck, I don't want anything like Nair Shine or Falco laser pressure to become commonplace in Smash 4 (although Link's jabs seem to be really good at frame trapping) but I do want some attacks to at least come out near +0 when shielded and/or spaced right. And I don't want said moves to be powerful smash attacks or dash attacks, that just doesn't make sense.

 

[hype machine]

Why should shields trump absolutely everything? Having some moves that are safe on block to apply pressure with is a pretty fundamental part of most every fighting game. Without it defense is too powerful compared to offense, shields are too powerful compared to trying to beat shields.

Shield are fine the problem is smash 4 approaches are to linear, it needs dash dancing. Also everyone has bad air mobility/momentum, and the moves have like to much end lag.

 

[hype machine]

Why is nobody focusing on the letter? I read the letter and reading the limited supply paragraph, reminded me of something externally important! Nintendo stopped shipping wii u GameCube adaptors. Fourtuantaly I got my hands on one for $20. I don't use it anymore and sadly it doesn't work for project m. But I did hear that they are going for $100 at amazon. Wish me luck guys

 

[Bleck]

Every FG has a concept we like to call "block-strings". Being able to apply relatively safe pressure on block is a necessary staple to almost any "competitive" fighter.

I'm not really sure that safe-on-block moves can exist in Smash specifically in such a way that doesn't just lead to Melee's "don't ever shield anything" syndrome. They'd have to make shields not actually decay for block strings to exist without making them virtually worthless - if there were moves that were safe on block and presumably couldn't also be punished with a grab, what's to stop people from just throwing those out until you stop blocking and get hit by it (i.e Melee)?

Trust me Bleck, I don't want anything like Nair Shine or Falco laser pressure to become commonplace in Smash 4

This is my fear, yes.

 

[GP&B]

Shielding isn't that unsafe in Melee, but doing anything useful out of it usually requires a not terrible jumpsquat and quick aerial/Up B options (so most of top and high tier). While I'd argue for a little more shieldstun in Smash 4, it also lacks intricacies from Melee like light shielding and shield DI that allow for some kind of interaction with blocking hits.

 

[hype machine]

About the letter I think your conclusion should be changed not the meaning but the mood, you said the Letter should be in a more humorous/friendly approach but your conclusion makes it sound like you're more disappointed in sakurai for his past actions. I think the you should end it with a more humorous mannar so he doesn't feel offended

 

[Paradoxium]

I'm not really sure that safe-on-block moves can exist in Smash specifically in such a way that doesn't just lead to Melee's "don't ever shield anything" syndrome. They'd have to make shields not actually decay for block strings to exist without making them virtually worthless - if there were moves that were safe on block and presumably couldn't also be punished with a grab, what's to stop people from just throwing those out until you stop blocking and get hit by it (i.e Melee)?




This is my fear, yes.

aight this just sounds like blind melee hate. shields in melee are still very good. Like its cool how Hax and Westballz can shine pressure and whatnot, but they just end up either getting swatted away or grabbed. Mango on the other hand respects shields a lot so he never gets grabbed or hit by oos options, he could shine pressure if he wanted too but he knows its safer to respect the shields and bait out the oos options. Look at how Mango plays the match up with Armada, he mixes in shielding with a lot of his approaches because he knows how to use it. But Unlike smash 4 it isn't overbearing and he has other options equally as strong as run up shield.

In melee if you knew what your oos options were and when to use them they were fine.

 

[FireBall Stars]

Saying an effort like this is a waste of time is a bit too harsh. I don't intend on participating but I'd like to just tell the people who will that it's an important thing to do, even if it's just you and 10 more guys.

It is true that it is unlikely to make it's way to japan perfectly translated to convince Sakurai and the guys there that better balance between both gameplay styles is possible. But at least from a company perspective, it is always interesting to know how its consumers feel about their products, so regardless of probably not causing anything to the future of Smash gameplay, it might help people in there to understand the niche more, and that's important.

Small niches are getting more important in the new business relationships being developed on the current hypermodern days as the long tail marketing theory accurately predicted, and is of a company interest to know how to keep the biggest number of them faithful to its brand.

They definitely would like to know how to get some more money, even if not with Smash Bros.

 

[JCOnyx]

I'm not really sure that safe-on-block moves can exist in Smash specifically in such a way that doesn't just lead to Melee's "don't ever shield anything" syndrome. They'd have to make shields not actually decay for block strings to exist without making them virtually worthless - if there were moves that were safe on block and presumably couldn't also be punished with a grab, what's to stop people from just throwing those out until you stop blocking and get hit by it (i.e Melee)?

This is my fear, yes.

Here is some good information on S4 shields: http://smashboards.com/threads/shields-in-smash-4.381183/

To be at 0 frame advantage after an attack, the shielding opponent is at a slight disadvantage, since dropping his shield takes 7 frames which happens to be how fast the fastest grabs in the game are. They'd also be susceptible to faster normals like jabs if they commit to an action after shielding. But you can roll, spotdodge, shield grab, jump, UpSmash, and UpB in this situation depending on your characters jump squat and startup frames on these options. Characters who have really poor defensive options, as in the ones listed above, will of course have difficulty handling this said shield pressure. But it's not like an opponent can just spam this said move to get the same effect.

I mostly want approximately +0 on block moves to come from aerials. This way, they can't just spam it in neutral since they'd have to commit to their jump squat and the startup frames if said move does get blocked in order to go for it again. Which of course the shielding opponent can just swat them away or even grab them in midair before they can even get the move out again.

It is difficult to balance I will admit. But in the games current state, too much is susceptible to being shield grabbed. Crossing shields up and spacing perfectly of course mitigate this problem somewhat, but it would much appreciated if at least one aerial option was "relatively" safe on block. Doesn't have to be at +0, but anything being better than -7 would be much appreciated.

 

[Bleck]

aight this just sounds like blind melee hate. shields in melee are still very good. Like its cool how Hax and We

I don't care about any of this

Here is some good information on S4 shields: http://smashboards.com/threads/shields-in-smash-4.381183/

I might be reading it wrong, but it seems like that thread is mostly people talking about how shields aren't as strong as people think they are...?

 

[hype machine]

Can we just ignore the Smash 4 defense force and go back to the topic at hand? Please list the main points you'd like to adress in a consumer letter as briefly as possible. Sicne we didn't get news, I'll start drafting something over the weekend and post it here for you guys to critique.

I think one of your main points should be on how the causal and competitive community can coexist. Sakurai stated that if we focus only on the competitive side of smash it will have no future. It sounds to me that he believes both sides can't exist at once which isn't true. Also someone mentioned a toggle feature that can work as well.

 

[OSCA MIKE]

What a fun thread

 

[Paradoxium]

I don't care about any of this

You said melee had a "don't shield anything syndrome." That's sounds like blind hatred to me. And Ironically you get mad when melee players talk nonsense about smash 4 when you do the same to melee.

 

[MegaMissingno]

I don't care about any of this

If you're gonna spout blatantly wrong nonsense like saying Melee is "don't ever shield anything", then when someone calls you out on it you can't just backpedal and say "I don't care".

 

[Bleck]

You said mel

don't caaaaare

If you're gonna spo

doooooon't caaaaaaaare