Differences Between Dr. Mario and Mario. (Which Italian is better than the other!)

[dbzeenx]

You guys do realize that you can push opponents even further with the use of the FLUDD if you aim at their feet?

 

[Masonomace]

You guys do realize that you can push opponents even further with the use of the FLUDD if you aim at their feet?

I'm a day late, but welcome to Smashboards.

And that piece of information you shared whether it be true or not is. . .

 

[Sir Bubbles]

Yes, Mario is IMO better than Doc in this game. Take this from a Doc from main for Melee, it pains me to say that he just doesn't seem to be as good as Mario.

Before anyone of you say "da tornaedoh downe bee is da behzt moove evar" keep in mind that the tornado is nearly useless in this game. That's because it loses some vertical distance in exchange for a little bit of horizontal distance. There is no other reason why you would ever want to use Doc's tornado, as an attacking move it's worthless.

Mario's dair seems to be better than Doc's dair and it seems that way because it covers more area, the final hit of the attack sends opponents flying and has far less ending lag. Doc's dair is alright from what I've seen, but I prefer Mario's.

Since Meteor smashes in this game are actually good, I have a feeling that Mario's fair is better than Doc's. I've been playing around in the demo and I have gotten a bunch of stocks just from Mario's fair alone. Doc's fair can be better for certain situations, but it seems that Mario's will be more useful.

Pills in this game seemed to be nerfed, but not drastically from what I've seen. The hitsun is still alright and damage really isn't important either, but it has a hard time hitting smaller characters. This is a bad thing because Doc's pills had a better trajectory than Mario's fireballs in Melee.

Mario also seems to have a better combo game in general. Doc was always about spacing and Mario was about being up close with the combos. You can still do both with either of the two, but they're better at doing what I just listed. Combos really do look like a big part of Mario's metagame and taking it away for some stronger aerials, smash attacks and random directions on tilts doesn't seem like something I would want.

Doc was better in Melee because he had a better projectile, bair, fair, crouch-cancel dsmash and better approaching options in general. Since all the tech in Melee was taken away and now they have a new game, I think it's safe to say that Doc really isn't as good anymore because of it. Doc benefited Melee's physics and mechanics more than Mario did.

I know I'm missing a few things and I may have errors (Correct me if I do BTW) but this is just my two cents on the topic and I think I was pretty specific. Mario is above Doc but it isn't a mile difference or something like that.

 

[Morbi]

Yes, Mario is IMO better than Doc in this game. Take this from a Doc from main for Melee, it pains me to say that he just doesn't seem to be as good as Mario.

Before anyone of you say "da tornaedoh downe bee is da behzt moove evar" keep in mind that the tornado is nearly useless in this game. That's because it loses some vertical distance in exchange for a little bit of horizontal distance. There is no other reason why you would ever want to use Doc's tornado, as an attacking move it's worthless.

Mario's dair seems to be better than Doc's dair and it seems that way because it covers more area, the final hit of the attack sends opponents flying and has far less ending lag. Doc's dair is alright from what I've seen, but I prefer Mario's.

Since Meteor smashes in this game are actually good, I have a feeling that Mario's fair is better than Doc's. I've been playing around in the demo and I have gotten a bunch of stocks just from Mario's fair alone. Doc's fair can be better for certain situations, but it seems that Mario's will be more useful.

Pills in this game seemed to be nerfed, but not drastically from what I've seen. The hitsun is still alright and damage really isn't important either, but it has a hard time hitting smaller characters. This is a bad thing because Doc's pills had a better trajectory than Mario's fireballs in Melee.

Mario also seems to have a better combo game in general. Doc was always about spacing and Mario was about being up close with the combos. You can still do both with either of the two, but they're better at doing what I just listed. Combos really do look like a big part of Mario's metagame and taking it away for some stronger aerials, smash attacks and random directions on tilts doesn't seem like something I would want.

Doc was better in Melee because he had a better projectile, bair, fair, crouch-cancel dsmash and better approaching options in general. Since all the tech in Melee was taken away and now they have a new game, I think it's safe to say that Doc really isn't as good anymore because of it. Doc benefited Melee's physics and mechanics more than Mario did.

I know I'm missing a few things and I may have errors (Correct me if I do BTW) but this is just my two cents on the topic and I think I was pretty specific. Mario is above Doc but it isn't a mile difference or something like that.

I still maintain that the choice regarding Dr. Mario or Mario should be preference based. I do not believe that either of them do anything significantly better. The differences are subtle for the most part.

 

[Masonomace]

I still maintain that the choice regarding Dr. Mario or Mario should be preference based. I do not believe that either of them do anything significantly better. The differences are subtle for the most part.

Basically your choice of thought is my same outlook.
Right now for me due to ignorance of knowing nothing about both Mario's, It's the choice of, "Do I want FLUDD, or do I want Tornado?"
The differences that seem to have little difference by appearance, may have detrimental differences in-game between the two. So for now, I wait for the metagame to flow forward for the Marios.

But atm, I'm subjectively considering Dr. Mario better soely for my green bias of the good doc's light green palette & the genious reference behind the palette's meaning I posted about in Doc's costume thread.

 

[Sir Bubbles]

I would also like to talk about which is better, FLUDD or Tornado?

Now, I believe that this topic is entirely preference based. If Doc's bair and cape properties were the same as they were in Melee, then I'd say that the Tornado is the better option. This is because Doc's bair and cape were very good edgeguarding tools, giving Doc one of the best edgeguarding tools in Melee. Seeing as FLUDD is primarily used for edgeguarding, it would defeat the purpose of having FLUDD if Doc is just better at edgeguarding anyway.

But let's say that isn't the case, then I'd say that FLUDD is better. As I stated earlier, Mario has a better dair than Doc does. Mario Tornado is a good aerial and I see that move having a lot of potential. Doc's tornado is stronger but it has more ending lag. Doc's dair is good but I think the two replacing Mario's dair and FLUDD doesn't really work.

I'm not a big FLUDD fan personally, but I'm a fan of how Mario seems to work in Smash 4. With Mario's current moveset along with FLUDD, people really seem to make FLUDD and his dair work.

Again, those are my two cents on the topic and I would like to see any ideas that you guys have. I like hearing the opinions of other people.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Gonna be honest, Doc's combo game might be drastically different with the D-Throw. BUT I don't think their differences in that regard are going to be incredibly drastic. They're certainly there perse, but I feel like Doc can do stuff identical to Mario.

Doc's Bair is a better edgeguard AFAIK, among other things. That being said I totally agree with your analysis of Mario being overall better, but I think it's more for his recovery and reliable meteor smash, and his D-Throw, more than overall combo game.

Doc not having D-Throw means I'll have to start combos into Uptilt differently, and since I hear uptilt has more KB with Doc this may actually be BETTER at low %s(since Mario's Uptilt basically is made to be used after D-Throw due to low KB).

With Doc I idealize approaching with either Dair(unlikely) or Uair(more likely) into Uptilt, and then maybe one more Uptilt or a Uair follow up. D-Throw will still be good if purely position only.

As a Doc main I plan on forcing people off the edge early and using his better Bair to gimp.

I also see potential in gimping with how Doc's cape works, sorta. Since Doc doesn't stall in the air with it, more vertical gimps may be possible if the player is good.

TL;DR Doc is hard mode Mario but I feel like his playstyle will be equally fundamentally rewarding, while being completely different to approach(Funny how he ended up being the most unique of the three clones in this roster, and the other two are separate characters in their own series!)

 

[Sir Bubbles]

Gonna be honest, Doc's combo game might be drastically different with the D-Throw. BUT I don't think their differences in that regard are going to be incredibly drastic. They're certainly there perse, but I feel like Doc can do stuff identical to Mario.

Doc's Bair is a better edgeguard AFAIK, among other things. That being said I totally agree with your analysis of Mario being overall better, but I think it's more for his recovery and reliable meteor smash, and his D-Throw, more than overall combo game.

Doc not having D-Throw means I'll have to start combos into Uptilt differently, and since I hear uptilt has more KB with Doc this may actually be BETTER at low %s(since Mario's Uptilt basically is made to be used after D-Throw due to low KB).

With Doc I idealize approaching with either Dair(unlikely) or Uair(more likely) into Uptilt, and then maybe one more Uptilt or a Uair follow up. D-Throw will still be good if purely position only.

As a Doc main I plan on forcing people off the edge early and using his better Bair to gimp.

I also see potential in gimping with how Doc's cape works, sorta. Since Doc doesn't stall in the air with it, more vertical gimps may be possible if the player is good.

TL;DR Doc is hard mode Mario but I feel like his playstyle will be equally fundamentally rewarding, while being completely different to approach(Funny how he ended up being the most unique of the three clones in this roster, and the other two are separate characters in their own series!)

Now that I think about it, I think Doc is gonna be better at punishing and edgeguarding and Mario will be better for the reliable meteor smash and D-throw, just like you mentioned. But the reason why I didn't mention the D-throw into U-tilt combos was because I was basically talking about Mario's combo game in general, I wasn't ignoring it.

Now recovery is something I don't necessarily agree with. I hear that Doc's single jump has more height than Mario's, so if you save your double jump doesn't that mean Doc has a better recovery than Mario? Mario's only tools for recover is his cape for stalling and his up-special. Doc has his tornado (for horizontal distance, I'm assuming you can act out of it) a better single jump and his up-special. That in my book seems to be better than what Mario already has right now.

Doc isn't gonna be as good as Mario, but he's close. I'd say they're both high tier, Mario is in the middle and Doc is low. It doesn't seem like how it was in Melee where Doc >>>>>>>>> Mario (IMO that's how it is for me).

 

[dbzeenx]

I used to hate FLUDD like most of you guys. I hated that Mario didn't have the tornado which was super good in SSB64, but it's better than you think. First of all, I usually do the next combo in SSB3DS:

I use my up smash on a character, I send them flying, and then push them to the edge of the stage with FLUDD. It works. Also in sudden deaths I charge it up to full and then lag them, so I can use an attack and win. Also you can use it when they're above you after they're trying to recover from a stage. What I mean is this:

-For example Pikachu was sent out of the stage and he's trying to recover. He doesn't need his air special, so he double jumps. When he's about to land, I use FLUDD and lag him, then use my forward smash and push him even further. It's a pretty good combo.

edit: Also charge up FLUDD when someone's trying to juggle you with a move. When you have enough water, use it and aim it at them so they can't touch you and keep juggling you.

 

[GlitchyFireEmblem]

It seems the contrary actually. Dr. Tornado is a huge advantage.

 

[StarLight42]

Yes, Mario is IMO better than Doc in this game. Take this from a Doc from main for Melee, it pains me to say that he just doesn't seem to be as good as Mario.

Before anyone of you say "da tornaedoh downe bee is da behzt moove evar" keep in mind that the tornado is nearly useless in this game. That's because it loses some vertical distance in exchange for a little bit of horizontal distance. There is no other reason why you would ever want to use Doc's tornado, as an attacking move it's worthless.

Dr. Mario has a custom move that literally trades all the attack power of the move for even more recovery power, and in competitive Smash, the Dr. Tornado isn't used offensively (but it's fun to use as an attack in casual play). So if custom moves are allowed, Dr. Mario has been buffed quite a bit.

You guys do realize that you can push opponents even further with the use of the FLUDD if you aim at their feet?

Sounds great! Is there a way I can get some extra recovery with it too?

 

[Folt]

Keep in mind that Mario has the Gust Cape custom, which also helps his recovery (in addition to still being a reflector). From what I've seen, none of Dr. Mario's Sheet customs help his recovery at all, so he's stuck with the wind tornado and SJP.

Dr. Mario may have the better vertical recovery from below, but Mario's horizontal recovery is just far and above better than the good doctor.

 

[Sir Bubbles]

Dr. Mario has a custom move that literally trades all the attack power of the move for even more recovery power, and in competitive Smash, the Dr. Tornado isn't used offensively (but it's fun to use as an attack in casual play). So if custom moves are allowed, Dr. Mario has been buffed quite a bit.



Sounds great! Is there a way I can get some extra recovery with it too?

This is assuming that custom moves are going to be legal in most tournies. If so, that's really cool and I would love to see it.

 

[StarLight42]

Keep in mind that Mario has the Gust Cape custom, which also helps his recovery (in addition to still being a reflector). From what I've seen, none of Dr. Mario's Sheet customs help his recovery at all, so he's stuck with the wind tornado and SJP.

Dr. Mario may have the better vertical recovery from below, but Mario's horizontal recovery is just far and above better than the good doctor.

You are really overestimating the Cape's power. It helps with horizontal recovery, but it's no Lloid Rocket.

 

[CodeBlue_]

You are really overestimating the Cape's power. It helps with horizontal recovery, but it's no Lloid Rocket.

The point is that with Gust Cape, Mario's Recovery>Doc's

He never said it was an amazing recovery, just better.

 

[StarLight42]

The point is that with Gust Cape, Mario's Recovery>Doc's

He never said it was an amazing recovery, just better.

It's not better, for **** sake. At the highest hopes it would be equal.

You guys are just grasping on straws to compare Mario to the Doc, I mean seriously, just stop, i'm sick and tired of this thread.
---
Staying loyal my friends.


I just don't like FLUDD at all, whether it's useful or not. I played Mario A LOT in Smash 64/Melee and a lot of Dr. Mario in Melee and the Mario Tornado was one of my favorite moves to spam when I played with my older brothers. Then Brawl took it away and I was pissed, I didn't want to play Mario anymore, but Luigi was WAAAY too floaty, so I just uhh...mained Toon Link, and that wasn't very fun. This is pretty much why I didn't like Brawl at all. Mario Tornado also helps more with recovery, and Dr. Mario has a custom move that literally amplifies the recovery a lot, so it's all good.

FLUDD honestly goes against the main point of Mario as a Smash character, being basic. The Mario Tornado was a simple spinning attack intended for offense but also useful for recovery. FLUDD is a complicated mess that literally no casual players understood when Brawl came out. Even the competitive players disliked the move's high lag and low reward rate.

Why do you think PewPewU never used FLUDD when he played Mario in the invitational?

Combo potential? Means nothing to me. Nobody is playing the Doc right now because everybody is in that "anti-clone" phase. I'm sure once people start playing him he will have some combos, not as much as Mario, but some.

Dr. Mario's inferior cape? I honestly don't care. The cape was never a move I liked, I was fine with Mario's Smash 64 moveset without it. Also, Dr. Mario's cape in Melee wasn't that great either so I don't know why it's disadvantages are being so emphasized now.

 

[UberMadman]

I doubt you'll be alone.

 

[UberMadman]

You guys are just grasping on straws to compare Mario to the Doc, I mean seriously, just stop, i'm sick and tired of this thread.

I don't know if you noticed though, but they're clones. It's certainly not straw grasping making comparisons between them and, in fact, it is probably the best possible thing we can do to get a better sense of how each of them play. And if you dislike the thread, that's fine, just stop looking at it.

 

[Masonomace]

Apologizing for the title before you even post a thread? Silly Star, never be sorry. Perhaps you would of enjoyed FLUDD's push-back mechanic had you mained this gimping machine in Brawl.

Broken Record speaking: Their practically the same character with some differences to several moves & priority. The tier difference between & won't be that far apart.

The most depressing thing I read in your OP was that you basically didn't enjoy Brawl at all because:

1. Mario's DownB was replaced
2. Dr. Mario didn't return to Brawl
3. Luigi was too floaty
   &
4. Played TL not out of fun.

Sheesh. I suddenly humble & thankful I was able to like a lot of things about SSBBrawl.

 

[StarLight42]

I don't know if you noticed though, but they're clones. It's certainly not straw grasping making comparisons between them and, in fact, it is probably the best possible thing we can do to get a better sense of how each of them play. And if you dislike the thread, that's fine, just stop looking at it.

Well exactly. I don't really care who is better, but I don't like to be lectured how Mario's FLUDD is somehow "useful" when I hate that move, and I won't play Mario as much as the Doc because of it.

 

[StarLight42]

Apologizing for the title before you even post a thread? Silly Star, never be sorry. Perhaps you would of enjoyed FLUDD's push-back mechanic had you mained this gimping machine in Brawl.

Broken Record speaking: Their practically the same character with some differences to several moves & priority. The tier difference between & won't be that far apart.

The most depressing thing I read in your OP was that you basically didn't enjoy Brawl at all because:

1. Mario's DownB was replaced
2. Dr. Mario didn't return to Brawl
3. Luigi was too floaty
   &
4. Played TL not out of fun.

Sheesh. I suddenly humble & thankful I was able to like a lot of things about SSBBrawl.

Sorry, but Brawl didn't contain a lot of Mario content. Only four of the five characters returned and most of them get enormous nerfs. When a Smash game takes a big bite out of your favorite franchise, you are prone not to like it in my opinion. SSB4 seems to fix that by the mile, with new Mario characters as well as adding Dr. Mario back.

Also didn't ever play Squirtle in Brawl, I stopped maining any Pokemon after Mewtwo got cut. However, I think a Water Gun fits for Squirtle's moveset. It doesn't fit at all for Mario in my opinion.

 

[ThePlayer77]

The point is that with Gust Cape, Mario's Recovery>Doc's

He never said it was an amazing recovery, just better.

True, but with Soaring Tornado, Doc's recovery>Mario's

 

[meleebrawler]

True, but with Soaring Tornado, Doc's recovery>Mario's

Is that the one where he keeps holding his arms out for 2 seconds when he's done?

 

[BSP]

Why do you think PewPewU never used FLUDD when he played Mario in the invitational?

Maybe because he plays melee and wouldn't know how to use the move?

He also probably didn t know that FLUDD steals KOs in FFAs.

If you're not going to listen when people try to tell you how FLUDD is useful, stop talking about it. I gave a giant reply on how FLUDD will affect recoveries in this game, and I told you how it's the best shoryuken punisher in the game. You just keep saying it is useless.

Play Doc all you want, but stop calling Fludd useless if you're not even going to bother to learn how to use it.

Again, the stall with tornado will not make a difference between a high and low tier character. What a character can do onstage and in general is much more important than recovery.

Btw, I was one of brawl's competitive mario players. I've gotten plenty of kills with it. I've seen Boss kill with it. Flameleon always charges it up.

 

[ThePlayer77]

Is that the one where he keeps holding his arms out for 2 seconds when he's done?

I think? It gives him an extremely high vertical recovery.

 

[meleebrawler]

I think? It gives him an extremely high vertical recovery.

Like Brawl Luigi Cyclone high?

 

[ChikoLad]

Yeah I think is better than in this game, from what I'm watching.

He moves noticeably faster, making it easier to follow up on your attacks. His moves are really swift across the board, with Dr. Mario being a bit slower. And FLUDD is actually really cool in this game - can totally gimp people (especially the fast fallers), and can even be used as an amazing horizontal recovery when fully charged (and getting it fully charged is not hard at all). Also I swear it has much better width than it did in Brawl. In Brawl, I could never hit with the thing, but in Smash 4, I'm almost always on point with it.

 

[CrazySolaire]

Down-B though

 

[ThePlayer77]

Like Brawl Luigi Cyclone high?

I think even higher. Luigi also has the Soaring Tornado Custom .

 

[StarLight42]

Maybe because he plays melee and wouldn't know how to use the move?

He also probably didn t know that FLUDD steals KOs in FFAs.

If you're not going to listen when people try to tell you how FLUDD is useful, stop talking about it. I gave a giant reply on how FLUDD will affect recoveries in this game, and I told you how it's the best shoryuken punisher in the game. You just keep saying it is useless.

Play Doc all you want, but stop calling Fludd useless if you're not even going to bother to learn how to use it.

Again, the stall with tornado will not make a difference between a high and low tier character. What a character can do onstage and in general is much more important than recovery.

Btw, I was one of brawl's competitive mario players. I've gotten plenty of kills with it. I've seen Boss kill with it. Flameleon always charges it up.

Or maybe because he knew the move sucked in Brawl and they probably hadn't bothered to change it?

I'll call FLUDD useless all I want, doesn't mean you have to believe it's useless, but in from my experience, it is and has always been. The only thing that Mario has over the Doc in this game is faster speed, more combos, and the cape, comparing FLUDD to the Dr. Tornado isn't even feasible, ESPECIALLY the Dr. Tornado custom that goes like, twice as high.

I'm sorry, but you just keep telling me "FLUDD gimps, FLUDD gimps" and all that nonsense when even in the competitive play I have seen after the japanese release, nobody uses FLUDD. It's a useless move, and it's just as bad as it was in Brawl. Maybe it's useless if your opponent is dumb enough to get into that type of situation, but that seems few and far between. FLUDD's customs are the silliest things I have ever seen, as well.

I mean, I might be pissing you off, with my direct speech, but that doesn't mean you can't believe FLUDD is the better move, you can. However, me? I think FLUDD is useless and atrocious, and just as bad as it was in Brawl, judging from the 3DS demo. There are many other reasons that I like the Doc better than Mario, but this is the heavy hitter, and why i'll still main the Doc even if Mario is higher tier.

Like Brawl Luigi Cyclone high?

Higher than that definitely, it goes like up 3/4 of the screen. Luigi's Luigi Cyclone custom move in this game goes up like to the top of the screen!

 

[meleebrawler]

Or maybe because he knew the move sucked in Brawl and they probably hadn't bothered to change it?

I'll call FLUDD useless all I want, doesn't mean you have to believe it's useless, but in from my experience, it is and has always been. The only thing that Mario has over the Doc in this game is faster speed, more combos, and the cape, comparing FLUDD to the Dr. Tornado isn't even feasible, ESPECIALLY the Dr. Tornado custom that goes like, twice as high.

I'm sorry, but you just keep telling me "FLUDD gimps, FLUDD gimps" and all that nonsense when even in the competitive play I have seen after the japanese release, nobody uses FLUDD. It's a useless move, and it's just as bad as it was in Brawl. Maybe it's useless if your opponent is dumb enough to get into that type of situation, but that seems few and far between. FLUDD's customs are the silliest things I have ever seen, as well.

I mean, I might be pissing you off, with my direct speech, but that doesn't mean you can't believe FLUDD is the better move, you can. However, me? I think FLUDD is useless and atrocious, and just as bad as it was in Brawl, judging from the 3DS demo. There are many other reasons that I like the Doc better than Mario, but this is the heavy hitter, and why i'll still main the Doc even if Mario is higher tier.



Higher than that definitely, it goes like up 3/4 of the screen. Luigi's Luigi Cyclone custom move in this game goes up like to the top of the screen!

You can't deny that FLUDD is much better this time, with a much stronger push effect
AND it's much easier to hit. It may be hard to get actual gimps with it while edgeguarding, but in my
experience it often puts the opponent in a bad position for them.
As for the japanese players, maybe they are just instinctively not using it because
of how bad it was in Brawl and haven't really given it another chance?

Doc's Tornado custom can certainly give him better recovery than Mario, but
(unless I'm thinking of the wrong custom here) it won't be used for anything BUT that,
especially with it's atrocious end lag (unless it has IASA?).

It seems both FLUDD and Dr. Tornado are very situational moves, so the one that is "better"
seems to come down largely to preference. You're definitely right about one thing: comparing the two
isn't feasible, because THEY ARE TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MOVES THAT FULFILL TWO COMPLETELY
DIFFERENT ROLES. If one of them doesn't suit you, it's your call.

BTW I love how you say Mario has only one thing over Doc, and then list three things.

 

[StarLight42]

You can't deny that FLUDD is much better this time, with a much stronger push effect
AND it's much easier to hit. It may be hard to get actual gimps with it while edgeguarding, but in my
experience it often puts the opponent in a bad position for them.
As for the japanese players, maybe they are just instinctively not using it because
of how bad it was in Brawl and haven't really given it another chance?

Doc's Tornado custom can certainly give him better recovery than Mario, but
(unless I'm thinking of the wrong custom here) it won't be used for anything BUT that,
especially with it's atrocious end lag (unless it has IASA?).

It seems both FLUDD and Dr. Tornado are very situational moves, so the one that is "better"
seems to come down largely to preference. You're definitely right about one thing: comparing the two
isn't feasible, because THEY ARE TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MOVES THAT FULFILL TWO COMPLETELY
DIFFERENT ROLES. If one of them doesn't suit you, it's your call.

BTW I love how you say Mario has only one thing over Doc, and then list three things.

1. Umm, maybe it's better? Not seeing much difference in push, though, and the range looks a little shorter than in Brawl. Nevertheless, i'd consider you right if you are talking about the High Pressure version.

2. End lag isn't much of a problem if you are using one of his tornado customs, so I disagree.

3. I agree here, you should use the one that suits you better, and I think the Dr. Tornado suits me better. However, if someone directly says that FLUDD is the "better" move in almost every aspect, I can't help but laugh.

4. Ummm...ok? I don't consider those to be three seperate buffs over Dr. Mario, but you can consider them that way, if you want.

 

[BSP]

Or maybe because he knew the move sucked in Brawl and they probably hadn't bothered to change it?

It wasn't the best move (and still isn't) in brawl, but it still had its uses, and, since the auto sweet spot range has been reduced, it was inherently buffed. It also obviously got buffed in pushback.

Regards, your guess is probably right, but it is his loss, as I've explained how FLUDD even has uses in a FFA.

I'll call FLUDD useless all I want, doesn't mean you have to believe it's useless, but in from my experience, it is and has always been. The only thing that Mario has over the Doc in this game is faster speed, more combos, and the cape, comparing FLUDD to the Dr. Tornado isn't even feasible, ESPECIALLY the Dr. Tornado custom that goes like, twice as high.

That's what I'm saying. You keep calling FLUDD useless and you haven't provided counterpoints to anything I've said, and if you're going to keep insisting that it is useless, I guess I can't help you. Don't judge something by your own experience alone.

And forget the fludd debate for a second. You are giving the tornado too much credit still. We agree that it is a terrible attack, right?

Recovery is not that important of a factor in smash. Having a good one certainly helps, but the characters attacking capabilities are much more important. You think tornado is good because it helps Doc's recovery. I say it doesn't mean much based on the fact that:

64 Falcon: terrible recovery, 4th best in the game, above characters with better recovery
64 Jiggs: amazing recovery, in the bottom half of the list
64 Mario and Luigi: Luigi had a better recovery, but mario is ranked higher.
Melee Falco: bad recovery, arguably the best in the game
Melee Falcon: bad recovery, still high tier
Melee ICs : recovery is extremely punishable and often hurts the player using it (nana basically does from belay), but they are still high tier
Melee Mario vs Doc: mario has a better recovery, but Doc is higher
Melee Kirby: good recovery, arguable worst character in the game
Melee Peach: good recovery with mixup potential, but still not top tier
Brawl Olimar: bad recovery, top 5 at least in the game
Brawl Sonic, Pit, Jiggs, Luigi, ROB: good recoveries, none of them are high tier
Brawl Wario: has a better recovery than olimar, diddy, Falco, Snake, Marth, ICs, ZSS, and Pikachu, but is below all of them.

I'm sorry, but you just keep telling me "FLUDD gimps, FLUDD gimps" and all that nonsense when even in the competitive play I have seen after the japanese release, nobody uses FLUDD. It's a useless move, and it's just as bad as it was in Brawl. Maybe it's useless if your opponent is dumb enough to get into that type of situation, but that seems few and far between. FLUDD's customs are the silliest things I have ever seen, as well.

Where have you seen mario play? Link me to it, and I can probably find some instance in the match where fludd would help. Let me repeat: the move is situational, yes, but not useless. Some characters, it's pretty non effective unless they do something stupid. Others...

A gimp is a kill btw...that's a pretty big deal, and better than you recovering. You have no need to recover if your opponent is dead.

Unless the mario player can't force the player offstage, it is impossible for the opponent to never be in a situation where fludd can screw them up. Of course, the potency is character dependent, but it is still there.

For the whiff punish I mentioned, you're essentially telling:

Marth/Samus/Bowser (admitting this one is theory, but I bet it'll work)/MK/Lucina/Mario/Doc to never use up B OOS, because that puts them in the situation to be fludd killed if they miss.

Luigi to never go for his move that kills at really low %

Anybody who's up B puts them in helpless to never retreat to the ledge after using it (which means a free punish for mario, but not doc)

That's all I can think of right now. It s situational, but it can be deadly.

Tornado will let Doc recover sometimes when mario can't. Ok. I'll take the whiff punish and edge guard potential.

However, me? I think FLUDD is useless and atrocious, and just as bad as it was in Brawl, judging from the 3DS demo. There are many other reasons that I like the Doc better than Mario, but this is the heavy hitter, and why i'll still main the Doc even if Mario is higher tier.

The only thing that's annoying me is that you're calling fludd useless even though I'm giving you solid theory (vids once I can, could right now for brawl, and the move is much worse in that game due to larger sweets pot range and less pushing power) to the contrary. I can see I won't change your mind about tornado being better, but I don't see how you can keep calling it useless.

@ meleebrawler tornado isn't really situational since if you're usin it for recovery purposes, he always has access to it

 

[StarLight42]

This post is way too long to be quoted

I don't need any counterpoints. FLUDD has never been effective for me, EVER. Even when I try to use it. You can tell me FLUDD is useful in FFAs (which umm, who plays FFAs? Lol.) when you don't have any actual evidence. Show me a professional Mario player use FLUDD, I dare you. Actual video evidence please, once you SHOW me that FLUDD is useful instead of TELLING me, i'll believe you, but i'm still using the Doc either way.

There was definitely a reason PewPewU never even considered using FLUDD in the invitational, and I think he played a damn good Mario myself.

 

[BSP]

The invitational had FFAs.

I'll upload some vids later. They will be from brawl, but the same concept will apply to this game.

Search "Boss vs 513"

It should be mario vs snake. On one stock, 513 tries to mix boss up with his landing and boss kills him for it with FLUDD.

I'm going to upload a vid where I

Kill a zelda player for landing on stage with up B

Kill a Link player for trying to land and use gale boomerang

Set myself up for a free kill by FLUDDing link while he's next to the ledge

Multiple where I kill olimar with it

One where I kill MK for whiffing shuttle loop

One where I miss 2 free kills because I didn't FLUDD the MK after shuttle loop.

 

[Masonomace]

I found them both as decent moves, though I find FLUDD a lot more useful. Aiming it at an opponent's telepgraphed recovery, it alters their means of getting back. After that, it's a free cape gimp. It's mainly for characters that're limited with only a DoubleJump & an UpB triple jump since FLUDD vs multiple jumps or a SideB recovery option like & makes it tricky. I just took a look at this video & found this: http://youtu.be/XQhV05JQt-Y?t=4m

Idk how much charging in seconds it requires to be fully charged, but that FLUDD upclose to Link uncharged pushed him back fairly far. I'm still on #TeamFLUDD.

EDIT: FLUDD can be used close-ranged & long-ranged, is a push-back property that can clang upon colliding hit-boxes freeze-framing a character's attack, & can gimp?
I'm not sorry to admit FLUDD in my subjective opinion, is the better DownB with more options & utility all in one attack.

 

[Knight Dude]

It's way too early to tell for me. Smash 3DS hasn't been out all that long. So the chances of us finding enough tech between both Mario and Doc Mario seems slim. Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

Doc probably has better recovery, thanks to the Tornado. And he deals more damage. But Mario can gimp others with FLUDD. I think Mario has more combo potential, but again it might be too early to tell at this time.

Normally, I'd go with Normal Mario. But Doc seems like a fairly interesting choice this time around. So I might switch to him every so often.

 

[StarLight42]

The invitational had FFAs.

I'll upload some vids later. They will be from brawl, but the same concept will apply to this game.

Search "Boss vs 513"

It should be mario vs snake. On one stock, 513 tries to mix boss up with his landing and boss kills him for it with FLUDD.

I'm going to upload a vid where I

Kill a zelda player for landing on stage with up B

Kill a Link player for trying to land and use gale boomerang

Set myself up for a free kill by FLUDDing link while he's next to the ledge

Multiple where I kill olimar with it

One where I kill MK for whiffing shuttle loop

One where I miss 2 free kills because I didn't FLUDD the MK after shuttle loop.

Not convinced by Brawl videos dude. A Link player and a Zelda player? There were such garbage tier in Brawl, doesn't prove any points.

 

[Ultinarok]

Not convinced by Brawl videos dude. A Link player and a Zelda player? There were such garbage tier in Brawl, doesn't prove any points.

I'm pretty sure everyone is getting salty because you're saying that FLUDD is useless, as though it is an objective fact, despite this obviously not being the case. You don't like it. That's what you're trying to say. It doesn't fit how you play, and you don't enjoy it. Completely fine. However, concluding that a move is useless because you don't enjoy how it is makes your opinion seem like you are expressing it as a fact. And if people have successfully used FLUDD, which many have, then the move can't be called useless. Situational? Yes. Hard to use? Yep. But it can't be useless, or else it would never do anything. And it does.

If you want to end this silly argument, just say "I don't like FLUDD, I don't see a use for it when I play, and I like Tornado much, much better, therefore I'm going to stick with Doc so I can have my preferred Down B." Leave out all the useless and atrocious stuff and no one will get salty. Problem solved.

 

[FalconBrofist]

I think part of the novelty of playing Dr. Mario was that he was better than Mario in Melee