Differences Between Dr. Mario and Mario. (Which Italian is better than the other!)

[InfiniteTripping]

FLUDD takes forever to set up with very little payoff. I think a lot of people like to think that FLUDD is this OP thing since it isn't like anything else in the game, so it presents interesting ways to interpret how to use it, but ultimately it is just goofing off. As much as we want FLUDD to be something, it isn't. It is garbage with a long set up and a predictable path that anyone who has played the game for more than a couple weeks will be able to work around.

 

[InfiniteTripping]

------------

 

[InfiniteTripping]

I think part of the novelty of playing Dr. Mario was that he was better than Mario in Melee

It wasn't so much better as different, but yes. If Dr. Mario is not much different from Mario in this game, I think it gives a lot of fire to his critics. A lot of the kids totally against Dr. Mario never played Melee that much to know how much more interesting he was than Mario. If he's basically the same thing now only without FLUDD, he's not going to win any converts and that is disappointing.

 

[meleebrawler]

@ meleebrawler tornado isn't really situational since if you're usin it for recovery purposes, he always has access to it

I'm just saying you'll never use it for ANYTHING other than that, which makes it situational as
it is practically useless in non-recovery scenarios. I do admit that recovery is a situation that
happens fairly often.

So, if you want power and survivability, pick Dr. Mario.
If you want speed, combos and recovery screwing, pick Mario.

 

[InfiniteTripping]

I'm just saying you'll never use it for ANYTHING other than that, which makes it situational as
it is practically useless in non-recovery scenarios. I do admit that recovery is a situation that
happens fairly often.

So, if you want power and survivability, pick Dr. Mario.
If you want speed, combos and recovery screwing, pick Mario.

Yeah that's how it is supposed to work in theory but FLUDD is useless. If your opponent gives you enough time to actually charge that bad boy up and use it... then there's like a million edge things you could do that could kill them anyway.

 

[meleebrawler]

@ meleebrawler tornado isn't really situational since if you're usin it for recovery purposes, he always has access to it

I'm just saying you'll never use it for ANYTHING other than that, which makes it situational as
it is practically useless in non-recovery scenarios. I do admit that recovery is a situation that
happens fairly often.

So, if you want power and survivability, pick Dr. Mario.
If you want speed, combos and recovery screwing, pick Mario.

Yeah that's how it is supposed to work in theory but FLUDD is useless. If your opponent gives you enough time to actually charge that bad boy up and use it... then there's like a million edge things you could do that could kill them anyway.

So I guess Charge Shot is useless too? Oh, and Aura Sphere. And Giant Punch.
You have to charge it BEFORE that situation comes. You CAN store the charge.

 

[InfiniteTripping]

I'm just saying you'll never use it for ANYTHING other than that, which makes it situational as
it is practically useless in non-recovery scenarios. I do admit that recovery is a situation that
happens fairly often.

So, if you want power and survivability, pick Dr. Mario.
If you want speed, combos and recovery screwing, pick Mario.


So I guess Charge Shot is useless too? Oh, and Aura Sphere. And Giant Punch.
You have to charge it BEFORE that situation comes. You CAN store the charge.

Those aren't among the best moves of the characters that possess those moves, either. But anyway, FLUDD doesn't work as a finisher even in 4. It is way too predictable. There's a reason a lot of the pro videos going around of Mario do not even acknowledge FLUDD at all. It is useless in all but a few rare circumstances.

 

[Radical Larry]

Doctor Mario is better; he was better in Melee, and he's still better now, because he doesn't have FLUDD.

 

[BSP]

Those aren't among the best moves of the characters that possess those moves, either. But anyway, FLUDD doesn't work as a finisher even in 4. It is way too predictable. There's a reason a lot of the pro videos going around of Mario do not even acknowledge FLUDD at all. It is useless in all but a few rare circumstances.

Nothing in the game works if you're predictable about it. It's up to the player to mix it up.

The reason the pro vids don't acknowledge FLUDD is probably because most people (ie the people 'arguing' against me now, people who didn't study FLUDD or play mario seriously in brawl ) don't know how to use the thing. You have to experiment with the move a lot to find its uses, and you're not going to do that unless you're seriously using the character.

Your last sentence basically says: "it's useless, except when it's useful."

Again, link me to this Mario footage you guys are claiming to see, and I can probably find some instance in the match where FLUDD would've done something.

FLUDD takes forever to set up with very little payoff. I think a lot of people like to think that FLUDD is this OP thing since it isn't like anything else in the game, so it presents interesting ways to interpret how to use it, but ultimately it is just goofing off. As much as we want FLUDD to be something, it isn't. It is garbage with a long set up and a predictable path that anyone who has played the game for more than a couple weeks will be able to work around.

I have said again and again that FLUDD is situational. It's not OP in the slightest. However, it's not useless, and the tornado isn't leagues better than it by any means, if at all.

I have killed people in tournament with FLUDD and have missed several occasions when it would've netted me kills. Just because you couldn't find a use for the move doesn't mean that it is useless.

It is garbage with a long set up and a predictable path that anyone who has played the game for more than a couple weeks will be able to work around.

Charge it up when you have time. You can store it.

You've seen FLUDD's range right? The way to "get around it safely" (go super low) sets you up for meteors and capes. If you go super high with a move that puts you in helpless, FLUDD can kill you, or you go to mario for a free punish.

The way to get around capes and meteors is to not go too low. That puts you in FLUDD's danger zone.

What about my whiff punish point? You guys understand what I mean when I say that, right? Are you just going to tell Marth/MK/Luigi/Mario/Doc/Lucina/Samus etc. to just never use their up B?

Not convinced by Brawl videos dude. A Link player and a Zelda player? There were such garbage tier in Brawl, doesn't prove any points.

Why not? Please do not say, "because it's a different game".

Even if you don't think FLUDD got more pushing power in Smash 4, it was inherently buffed by the nerf to auto sweetspot ranges. Anything that worked in brawl, minus edgehogging, should work in smash 4, and better.

You keep saying that FLUDD is useless. I have evidence of it being used. It disproves your point.

You also completely ignored the mention of MK, Olimar, and Snake

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDv7MnOhAmc#t=560

That should go to the time Villager Loid Rockets across the stage (MIXUP) and then fastfalls to the ledge. Even though Jumpman used the FLUDD prior, he could've ran towards the edge and started charging again. If he would've shot village when he fastfell, he would've died. This is what I mean by FLUDD stopping mixup potential.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV2z95qRNyI

at 2:20; you see when DHD up B'd and MIXED UP Zelda by going to the ledge? You can't do that against Mario with FLUDD.

at 3:17, Nairo chose to recover on stage. Against Mario with FLUDD, that's suicide as Zelda. His teleports would also be risky as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlfwHqrEuP4&list=UUbr6TI0Mujw2iFAQE4R8yrQ#t=124

See how Lucina whiffs up B? FLUDD kills you if you do that.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'm in agreement with BSP even though I'm booty at using FLUDD. While I think it's hard to use and situational(along with being sort of mediocre in Brawl), it's a lot better here. You nerf the ledge snap and all of a sudden that little push from FLUDD is a much bigger deal when it prevents you from grabbing the ledge. Combine that with caping and meteors and Mario has a very diverse gimping range that greatly outshines Doc.

Basically

Mario - All around character, decent pressure, decent everything, above average edgeguard
Dr. Mario - More polarizing Mario, less combos more of a punish game, STRONGER but not more diverse edgeguarding, better Bair for gimps, but lacks the diverse uses of FLUDD. Worse recovery

In summary while Doc might be slightly worse than Mario IMO they're pretty much in the same spot, very close to each other.

 

[InfiniteTripping]

Your last sentence basically says: "it's useless, except when it's useful."

There are situations it is useful. Like, it kills Lucas and Ness dead in Brawl. There's nothing they can do about it either. And this will probably be the same in this game. But those characters are so vulnerable in so many ways anyway that having a move that is totally devoted to killing those two is not really practical.

Just because you couldn't find a use for the move doesn't mean that it is useless.

Every match I have been against someone who was a devoted FLUDD user, it's just such a telegraphed move. You can see it coming from last week - it's a waste of time to charge it up, you could do several combos in the time it takes to set up, and then once it's charged, you know they are going to use it and it has a long end lag. Also every video I have seen with "oh my god awesome FLUDD user owns guy"... it's usually the other person's obvious lack of skill that allows that to happen. There's one going around that shows FLUDD pushing Pikachu's torpedo recovery back and everyone is saying in hushed tones, damn FLUDD is useful... but that person could have easily used the more practical quick attack recovery and avoided that situation altogether.

I love Mario and I wish FLUDD would be useful, but I just don't see how a move with so many downsides could ever be a great move. You're fighting the good fight in trying to see successful Mario but FLUDD is just not a very practical move.

 

[TTTTTsd]

You can angle it now. I'm sorry but that changes like, everything. No, really, it does.

 

[meleebrawler]

There are situations it is useful. Like, it kills Lucas and Ness dead in Brawl. There's nothing they can do about it either. And this will probably be the same in this game. But those characters are so vulnerable in so many ways anyway that having a move that is totally devoted to killing those two is not really practical.



Every match I have been against someone who was a devoted FLUDD user, it's just such a telegraphed move. You can see it coming from last week - it's a waste of time to charge it up, you could do several combos in the time it takes to set up, and then once it's charged, you know they are going to use it and it has a long end lag. Also every video I have seen with "oh my god awesome FLUDD user owns guy"... it's usually the other person's obvious lack of skill that allows that to happen. There's one going around that shows FLUDD pushing Pikachu's torpedo recovery back and everyone is saying in hushed tones, damn FLUDD is useful... but that person could have easily used the more practical quick attack recovery and avoided that situation altogether.

I love Mario and I wish FLUDD would be useful, but I just don't see how a move with so many downsides could ever be a great move. You're fighting the good fight in trying to see successful Mario but FLUDD is just not a very practical move.

Why is it that you make it seem as if when you charge a move, you have to use it very soon?
People who do this are probably trying to see how the move works in various situations. They learn by
screwing up, and thus, how NOT to use FLUDD.

Are all chargeable moves bad because they are "telegraphed"? They can make the opponent wary,
but otherwise they have no way of knowing when you're gonna use the attack.

There are plenty of times when it's not possible to "do several combos": they could have been sent
real high, they could have been KO'd, they might be running away etc.

 

[InfiniteTripping]

Why is it that you make it seem as if when you charge a move, you have to use it very soon?
People who do this are probably trying to see how the move works in various situations. They learn by
screwing up, and thus, how NOT to use FLUDD.

Are all chargeable moves bad because they are "telegraphed"? They can make the opponent wary,
but otherwise they have no way of knowing when you're gonna use the attack.

There are plenty of times when it's not possible to "do several combos": they could have been sent
real high, they could have been KO'd, they might be running away etc.

Unlike other charged moves, FLUDD isn't really that useful in any situation but edge guarding (and it does work for kill stealing too). A DK punch, for example, you can use at any time your opponent is off-guard. It is not particularly useful as a move either but at least there's a lot of situations where you can use it to move the match in your favor. You're making this a general attack against all charged moves which I wasn't saying. I am pointing out that in the instance of FLUDD, from my experience, it is only really is worth anything in edge guarding. And if you see a FLUDD charged up, you're going to be able to adjust appropriately if you are off-stage and reasonably skilled at the game unless you have a really slow, easy-to-gimp recovery like Ness. So it has a predictable window of use and a really long start up and a lot of end lag, I just don't see it as that useful. I think people trying to make FLUDD into something are akin to those who ****** around with the Pokemon Trainer, trying to make that into something. Just because something has a unique mechanic doesn't mean it will amount to anything.

That the FLUDD can change directions now does add SOME unpredictability to the move. And there are a lot of new characters and characters with changed recoveries that the move might be useful with. But I think once everything digs in you're not going to see the FLUDD perform any miracles for Mario.

 

[StarLight42]

Gigantic post

You're wasting your time with these giant walls of text, I still haven't seen any visual evidence that Mario's FLUDD is useful and used in competitive play within Smash 3DS.

I'm honestly just done with arguing, still think the Doc is better in a lot of ways, still always will.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Why would there be footage of it in Smash 3DS when the game ISN'T EVEN OUT IN AMERICA?

Nobody's even talking about the original title anymore. You're calling a move bad when it's really not that bad, you can say YOU don't like it, but there's a difference between preference and fact. For that matter you can use a version of FLUDD to recover, thanks to custom moves. High pressure FLUDD lets you dash horizontally backwards and it has even MORE pushback than normal FLUDD meaning you can actively chase and edgeguard with it.

Asking for videos for this game after all of 2 tournaments where Mario was barely used is like, I don't want to talk about this. I'm taking BSP's word because he's placed in actual Brawl tournaments and has had competitive experience with it, and if FLUDD got BETTER in this game due to the ability to aim it, more of a reason for me to.

 

[meleebrawler]

Why would there be footage of it in Smash 3DS when the game ISN'T EVEN OUT IN AMERICA?

Nobody's even talking about the original title anymore. You're calling a move bad when it's really not that bad, you can say YOU don't like it, but there's a difference between preference and fact. For that matter you can use a version of FLUDD to recover, thanks to custom moves. High pressure FLUDD lets you dash horizontally backwards and it has even MORE pushback than normal FLUDD meaning you can actively chase and edgeguard with it.

Asking for videos for this game after all of 2 tournaments where Mario was barely used is like, I don't want to talk about this. I'm taking BSP's word because he's placed in actual Brawl tournaments and has had competitive experience with it, and if FLUDD got BETTER in this game due to the ability to aim it, more of a reason for me to.

You mean the question of whether Doc is better or worse than Mario?
Well, their down specials ARE the biggest point of distinction between the two.

 

[meleebrawler]

Unlike other charged moves, FLUDD isn't really that useful in any situation but edge guarding (and it does work for kill stealing too). A DK punch, for example, you can use at any time your opponent is off-guard. It is not particularly useful as a move either but at least there's a lot of situations where you can use it to move the match in your favor. You're making this a general attack against all charged moves which I wasn't saying. I am pointing out that in the instance of FLUDD, from my experience, it is only really is worth anything in edge guarding. And if you see a FLUDD charged up, you're going to be able to adjust appropriately if you are off-stage and reasonably skilled at the game unless you have a really slow, easy-to-gimp recovery like Ness. So it has a predictable window of use and a really long start up and a lot of end lag, I just don't see it as that useful. I think people trying to make FLUDD into something are akin to those who ****ed around with the Pokemon Trainer, trying to make that into something. Just because something has a unique mechanic doesn't mean it will amount to anything.

That the FLUDD can change directions now does add SOME unpredictability to the move. And there are a lot of new characters and characters with changed recoveries that the move might be useful with. But I think once everything digs in you're not going to see the FLUDD perform any miracles for Mario.

It's just that you said FLUDD was telegraphed, and the only point you made to support that
claim was that it requires charging. Thus, I couldn't tell how you set it apart from other charging moves.

You are right about FLUDD only being really useful for edgeguarding, and that does mean people
tend to expect it when offstage. But in trying to avoid FLUDD (by going higher), you can make yourself
vulnerable other forms of edgeguarding (cape and Fair).

And now my question is: what situations are the Dr. Tornado good for outside of recovering?
If you could come up with more than that, that would be a good argument for supporting the Tornado.

 

[Gre ninja'd]

So far, I've preferred Dr mario to mario, but thats because of the down b and forward air differences. Dr Mario is slower and stronger, but mario has more combo potential, so its just your preference.

 

[TTTTTsd]

You mean the question of whether Doc is better or worse than Mario?
Well, their down specials ARE the biggest point of distinction between the two.

Sorta? I mean their combo games and fundamental approaches look way more different than just their Down-Bs, seems like more of a footnote than an overall character strength indicator.

 

[BSP]

You're wasting your time with these giant walls of text, I still haven't seen any visual evidence that Mario's FLUDD is useful and used in competitive play within Smash 3DS.

I'm honestly just done with arguing, still think the Doc is better in a lot of ways, still always will.

Ok, you watched the link where Villager Loid Rocketed across the stage and then fast-falled to the ledge? Put two and two together.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q3gAELCOiE

Johns: I don't even own a 3ds. That's bad mario play, but it gets the point across.

Anyway, in the first few seconds, you see how I push villager past the ledge when he's falling to it? That's what I mean by killing people when they go to the ledge. If Jumpman would've done it, he would've killed Pwing. Pwing was drifting towards the ledge too, so he would've shot past it.

And then at 1:50, you see how far he goes if he's leaning towards the ledge. Remember the video of Duck Hunt Dog retreating to the ledge in helpless? That's free kills for mario.

Expected Response: So what? Doc/Mario could just go cape them, rendering FLUDD useless.

Answer: maybe...If someone is retreating to the ledge, you may not be able to get them in time to cape before they grab the ledge. They can also mix you up by faking which direction they are going to drift and by fastfalling. FLUDD removes the option of retreating to the ledge, making the only option going to Mario and getting hit for free. It also stalls fastfalls, giving you more time to cape if necessary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3JSY89R79I

In the first few seconds, I show the theory I posted about FLUDDing villager's balloon trip, and like I said, it shoots him up. The only way he can avoid that it by going super low, which leaves him open to meteor smashes and capes.

Without FLUDD, I still could've jumped out and gotten the cape, but Villager can still mix me up, and then retreat towards the other ledge if he gets over me, or mix me up and fall back. It's all about killing the mixup potential.

At :56, when I cape villager, to avoid going helpless, a human player would have to descend to the ledge, in which case i'd just cape him again or meteor him. He could also go really high, and then try to get me with a falling mixup. With FLUDD, they have to come to me. With Doc, it's a 50/50.

Villager could still mix it up by going under the stage. In which case, don't go offstage until you see him commit to whichever side he is on.

I couldn't get AI Mario to Up B me, so I couldn't get a video of a whiff punish. I may try to get video of me FLUDDing Link's up B, because i'm pretty sure it's push him into the air and make him go helpless, leading to a kill for you.

This argument has consisted of (for me, anyway):

people saying FLUDD is useless and tornado is much better
I (and others) explain why FLUDD isn't useless and why tornado doesn't help too much
People reiterate that FLUDD is useless and don't address my points about tornado; nobody says anything about my whiff punish example and they continue to call FLUDD useless.

And, again, I'm not arguing Mario v Doc overall. I'm not sure who's better. We'll see. I'm trying to correct misinformation about FLUDD and trying to explain why Tornado isn't that good.

Guys, you could aim FLUDD in brawl. The water actually feels like it has more gaps to me in this game.

Also, I completely forgot the fact that doc can't meteor people. So whenever I mention people being susceptible to meteors, that doesn't apply to doc.

Whatever. The game comes out soon. If my buddies get it, I'll go online, beat some people, and get some replays.

but that person could have easily used the more practical quick attack recovery and avoided that situation altogether.

FLUDD destroys quick attack btw. If Pikachu gets hit mid QA, he shoots straight up. If he gets hit after, he gets pushed extremely far.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93m2PzwaEjg&list=UUrggeDItu8mnC03ocQoH-Zg - shooting him mid quick attack.

Why didn't I just go out there and cape him? 1: I have to go out there, which he can see coming and then 2: He can Up B early and I miss.

Well, won't they see FLUDD coming too? Why would a pikachu ever up B that early?

Once you start caping people, they start avoiding you by up B'ing early. FLUDD punishes them for doing so. Mix it up and you've got a 50/50 kill.

 

[Sir Tundra]

In my opinion I think both of them are equal in this game. It's really all about personal preference at this point. Do you prefer a Mario with more combo potential or a Mario with more Kill potential? Also Doc Tornado was always terrible to begin with. I mean the thing had a huge amount of ending lag in melee and it seems to not be any different in this game. Fludd seems like it's been buffed based on the fact that it can push people farther than it did in brawl not to mention you can angle it. Regardless I still find it a terrible move in my opinion. However Doctor marios recovery seems to have gotten worse since his up b has changed to a kill move then and gain less of a distance. Soaring tornado seems to help Doc's recovery a lot so if custom moves are going to be legal in tournaments then I'd advise all you doc mains to use it. Doc still has his tools like down throw to fair which can kill pretty early, pills still seem to have the same knock back only receiving a damage % nerf, cape still looks like it can gimp well although that was only the case in melee/pm because you can only grab the ledge when you're facing it so take that with a grain of salt, and forward smash is still one of his best kill moves. Also dr mario is not slower than mario.. They have the exact same walking/running/airspeed the only difference about them is their kill/combo potential and their recovery. I plan on Seconding Doc because he was one of my mains in melee. But you can choose whatever you want.

 

[StarLight42]

Big post that is best not quoted

I appreciate you trying to defend your point with this big wall of text, and it really looks like you are trying hard. However, i'm not bought on CPU Villager gameplay footage. CPUs are still really dumb in Smash 4 even on Level 9. (it seems yours was on Lv. 1) Also, I think any human player using Villager against Mario would be smart enough not to use the Lloid rocket because when it collides with Mario's cape it can spell disaster.

I appreciate your hard work to try and defend FLUDD, but after like 421525355323534678574353 posts, I still haven't seen FLUDD used in competitive gameplay footage because it's not very effective and it's a move that is easily outsmarted.

I think Mario beats the Doc in other areas, like combo potential, but I think the better Down-B is still owned by the Doc.

 

[BSP]

I appreciate you trying to defend your point with this big wall of text, and it really looks like you are trying hard. However, i'm not bought on CPU Villager gameplay footage. CPUs are still really dumb in Smash 4 even on Level 9. (it seems yours was on Lv. 1) Also, I think any human player using Villager against Mario would be smart enough not to use the Lloid rocket because when it collides with Mario's cape it can spell disaster.

It was level 9. Regardless, I agree AI are stupid, but my video still gets the point across. I linked you to a match where a human Villager Loid Rocketed across the stage, above Mario's cape range, and then fell to the ledge safely because Mario didn't FLUDD him off.

I appreciate your hard work to try and defend FLUDD, but after like 421525355323534678574353 posts, I still haven't seen FLUDD used in competitive gameplay footage because it's not very effective and it's a move that is easily outsmarted.

Put two and two together from the villager vs mario match, and my vid where I FLUDD villager off the stage. What do you think would've happened if Mario would've FLUDDed in the former?

"Outsmarting FLUDD" is exactly my point. If have to think about the move and work around it, that means it has a presence that you are concerned about, and it is limiting your options. That's the exact opposite of useless.

How do you "easily outsmart" the whiff punish potential? Do you just never use your up B offensively? Option limiting.

To outsmart the FLUDD edgeguarding and punish, you:

Should avoid going helpless above the stage, or you risk a free punish or death
Should never up B early, because FLUDD will mess you up.
Should never miss the ledge sweetspot, because FLUDD will mess you up if you do.
Think very carefully about up B'ing OOS or for a kill off the top. If you miss, Mario kills you or you take a free punish to avoid death.

This narrows your recovery potential and offensive options, unless you're willing to take great risks.

The method to get around cape is to do what I just said not to do if you want to avoid FLUDD. If you want to outsmart cape, you:

Should Up B early, to make Mario miss or hit him before he hits you; this will entail missing the ledge sweetspot though, assuming Mario is covering that, but you'll hit mario away and be safe.
Should, if available, use a recovery move to go over his head and to the other side. Cape won't kill you from center stage, and you have a chance to mix Mario up.
For up B's OOS and up B's to KO off the top, the risk : reward is in your favor. If you hit, mario dies or you counter whatever he was trying to do. If you miss or it gets blocked, he, at most, hits you, and you can retreat to the ledge as a mixup.

Can you see this?

 

[meleebrawler]

I appreciate you trying to defend your point with this big wall of text, and it really looks like you are trying hard. However, i'm not bought on CPU Villager gameplay footage. CPUs are still really dumb in Smash 4 even on Level 9. (it seems yours was on Lv. 1) Also, I think any human player using Villager against Mario would be smart enough not to use the Lloid rocket because when it collides with Mario's cape it can spell disaster.

I appreciate your hard work to try and defend FLUDD, but after like 421525355323534678574353 posts, I still haven't seen FLUDD used in competitive gameplay footage because it's not very effective and it's a move that is easily outsmarted.

I think Mario beats the Doc in other areas, like combo potential, but I think the better Down-B is still owned by the Doc.

Of all the times I've heard someone say Doc's Down B is way better than Mario's, I hardly remember
hearing justification for it. Well? I'm waiting. And don't say "recovery" because we all know that.

 

[Sir Tundra]

Of all the times I've heard someone say Doc's Down B is way better than Mario's, I hardly remember
hearing justification for it. Well? I'm waiting. And don't say "recovery" because we all know that.

Both Doc Tornado and Fludd are terrible moves. One is a terrible recovery move with terrible ending lag that you're better off not using it and should just use the jump punch. And other still can't gimp despite the buffs it received that you're better off fairing them for the easy gimp.

Edit: I'm not counting custom moves variants for doc tornado and Fludd

 

[Fairycancel]

Okay, Its hard to say that vanilla Dr. Mario is better. Its just not happening in my opinion since as much as I dislike F.L.U.D.D its still seems like a better move to have than the Tornado. Now, with custom moves on the other hand I think that its much closer. The reason for this is because of the recovery down special practically lets you have two recoveries. This also lets you pick the stronger up special since you don't have to worry about recovery too much. With this said, I think that the recovery down special is still not all that great alone but being able to get a powerful attack thanks to it is a plus. This is probably the only reason why I am interested in Dr. Mario. Though, for those of you defending Dr. Mario... Please stop, if you are talking of vanilla version of them then its hard to say that Dr. Mario is better.

 

[Sir Tundra]

I think Dr Mario does have a slight edge against Mario(I could be wrong) with Custom Moves. Fast pills are basically Falco's Lasers but better and have more hitstun then mario's fast fireballs, Soaring Tornado gives him ridiculous recovery making him have a better recovery than mario's and as I stated before its gonna be the one every Doc main would want to use, Gust Cape can gimp the Hell out of people with relative ease(I guess this also works with Mario too), and Since Doc's got soring Tornado he can actually do well with the Ex Shoryuken Jump Punch killing at low percents if used closer to the air. However Mario's High Pressure Fludd does look like it can easily gimp people with ease due to that ridiculous distance. Both of them are gonna benefit greatly with custom moves and that having custom moves be legal or not will be a huge deciding factor on how well they're gonna do in the meta.

 

[Fairycancel]

I think Dr Mario does have a slight edge against Mario(I could be wrong) with Custom Moves. Fast pills are basically Falco's Lasers but better and have more hitstun then mario's fast fireballs, Soaring Tornado gives him ridiculous recovery making him have a better recovery than mario's and as I stated before its gonna be the one every Doc main would want to use, Gust Cape can gimp the Hell out of people with relative ease(I guess this also works with Mario too), and Since Doc's got soring Tornado he can actually do well with the Ex Shoryuken Jump Punch killing at low percents if used closer to the air. However Mario's High Pressure Fludd does look like it can easily gimp people with ease due to that ridiculous distance. Both of them are gonna benefit greatly with custom moves and that having custom moves be legal or not will be a huge deciding factor on how well they're gonna do in the meta.

Would suck if they didn't. Characters like Palutena, Ganondorf, Mario and Ness benefit a lot from their custom moves. It sad they didn't give them the better moves from the get go :/

And lets not forget of Samus which seem to have a great amount of stage control and edge guarding potential.

 

[meleebrawler]

Both Doc Tornado and Fludd are terrible moves. One is a terrible recovery move with terrible ending lag that you're better off not using it and should just use the jump punch. And other still can't gimp despite the buffs it received that you're better off fairing them for the easy gimp.

Edit: I'm not counting custom moves variants for doc tornado and Fludd

I kinda agree with you, in spite of everything I said to defend FLUDD I can see
that it's still not that great. Though I do feel that it's been buffed from "absolutely awful"
to "useable". I also said before that while it's hard to get actual gimps with it, it can still
make it easier to hit with other edgeguarding moves.

My last post was mostly challenging those who said Doc was better simply because
he doesn't have FLUDD, yet never justified why tornado was better.
You'd think they held FLUDD responsible for every bad thing about Mario in Brawl...

 

[Sir Tundra]

I kinda agree with you, in spite of everything I said to defend FLUDD I can see that it's still not that great. Though I do feel that it's been buffed from "absolutely awful"
to "useable". I also said before that while it's hard to get actual gimps with it, it can still
make it easier to hit with other edgeguarding moves.
My last post was mostly challenging those who said Doc was better simply because
he doesn't have FLUDD, yet never justified why tornado was better.
You'd think they held FLUDD responsible for every bad thing about Mario in Brawl...

I think they'll both be better with custom moves.
Also Mario wasn't just bad in Brawl because of the tornado lost. Yes it was a big hit since his recoveries even worse but It was also because of the physics/game mechanics, Mario's ability to K.O is even worse than it was in melee, Forward air is not a guaranteed spike anymore, increased landing lag on super jump punch, and so forth that I could make it a 4 paragraph
essay out of it. So I agree with you that all those people are over exaggerating when they say that FLUDD is the number one reason why Mario sucked in Brawl. I think Mario in this game is much better than he was in Melee and Brawl combined cause of his crazy combo potential making this marios best incarnation in the entire smash series.

Would suck if they didn't. Characters like Palutena, Ganondorf, Mario and Ness benefit a lot from their custom moves. It sad they didn't give them the better moves from the get go :/

And lets not forget of Samus which seem to have a great amount of stage control and edge guarding potential.

Most tournament organizers actually want custom moves to be legal but due to the fact that unlocking all the custom moves in this game takes so much time compared to unlocking all the character's that it'll probably just ban it for a month till people unlock all the moves.

 

[Fairycancel]

I think they'll both be better with custom moves.
Also Mario wasn't just bad in Brawl because of the tornado lost. Yes it was a big hit since his recoveries even worse but It was also because of the physics/game mechanics, Mario's ability to K.O is even worse than it was in melee, Forward air is not a guaranteed spike anymore, increased landing lag on super jump punch, and so forth that I could make it a 4 paragraph
essay out of it. So I agree with you that all those people are over exaggerating when they say that FLUDD is the number one reason why Mario sucked in Brawl. I think Mario in this game is much better than he was in Melee and Brawl combined cause of his crazy combo potential making this marios best incarnation in the entire smash series.



Most tournament organizers actually want custom moves to be legal but due to the fact that unlocking all the custom moves in this game takes so much time compared to unlocking all the character's that it'll probably just ban it for a month till people unlock all the moves.

Actually, that is good to hear. Glad they will not be banned forever. If only Nintendo would also let you use them online later on in the normal modes :/

 

[Sir Tundra]

Actually, that is good to hear. Glad they will not be banned forever. If only Nintendo would also let you use them online later on in the normal modes :/

In due time man.. In due time. Maybe if we can actually tell nintendo that we like custom moves then they could possibly make a patch to put them in.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think they'll both be better with custom moves.
Also Mario wasn't just bad in Brawl because of the tornado lost. Yes it was a big hit since his recoveries even worse but It was also because of the physics/game mechanics, Mario's ability to K.O is even worse than it was in melee, Forward air is not a guaranteed spike anymore, increased landing lag on super jump punch, and so forth that I could make it a 4 paragraph
essay out of it. So I agree with you that all those people are over exaggerating when they say that FLUDD is the number one reason why Mario sucked in Brawl. I think Mario in this game is much better than he was in Melee and Brawl combined cause of his crazy combo potential making this marios best incarnation in the entire smash series.

...What?

Mario's KO power is most definitely better in Brawl than in Melee. I'm not sure where you are getting your facts, but I am almost certain that all three of Mario's Smashes KO slightly earlier in Brawl than they do in Melee.

Melee Mario primarily benefited from braindead throw combos into Smashes on most of the cast and easier edgeguard options, if that's what you're actually talking about. And in both Melee and Brawl, Mario's F-air is meteor cancelable, and the Super Jump Punch is laggy in both games.

Smash 4 Mario's combos are great...until you realize that very few of them are guaranteed, and that Mario has to make some rather hard reads to get big damage. Which is a problem he had in Brawl as well, except Mario's attacks do more damage in Brawl. Meaning in the time you deal ~50% to someone with Smash 4 Mario, you are able to do closer to 65% with Brawl Mario.

 

[GenericSonicFanName]

I kinda want to use Dr. Mario, but regular Mario looks to play much better than he did before. Just how much worse is his recovery? Is the additional damage worth it?

 

[warionumbah2]

nuff said...

 

[Blue Warrior]

Honestly, I think both of them got nerfed in places where they didn't need it. I mean, it beats Brawl Mario, but... why do they keep nerfing his recovery?

 

[TTTTTsd]

That video above was sad because that Doc had plenty of options to counter Mario or at least go against the offensive pace, he just kept dropping into his attacks. NAIR HIM MAN, DAIR(use the disjoint!)! Doc is still worse than Mario but come on, man! It's not THAT bad.

 

[Sir Tundra]

...What?

Mario's KO power is most definitely better in Brawl than in Melee. I'm not sure where you are getting your facts, but I am almost certain that all three of Mario's Smashes KO slightly earlier in Brawl than they do in Melee.

Melee Mario primarily benefited from braindead throw combos into Smashes on most of the cast and easier edgeguard options, if that's what you're actually talking about. And in both Melee and Brawl, Mario's F-air is meteor cancelable, and the Super Jump Punch is laggy in both games.

Smash 4 Mario's combos are great...until you realize that very few of them are guaranteed, and that Mario has to make some rather hard reads to get big damage. Which is a problem he had in Brawl as well, except Mario's attacks do more damage in Brawl. Meaning in the time you deal ~50% to someone with Smash 4 Mario, you are able to do closer to 65% with Brawl Mario.

Last time I checked it took me almost 200% just to kill someone in brawl with mario due the fact that the floaty physic's in general make it hard to kill someone in brawl . Mario might of had it easier if that wasn't the case. And yes I was referring to the brain dead combos with the down throws and such. Maybe I might not know what I'm talking about since I didn't really played mario much in brawl.

 

[warionumbah2]

That video above was sad because that Doc had plenty of options to counter Mario or at least go against the offensive pace, he just kept dropping into his attacks. NAIR HIM MAN, DAIR(use the disjoint!)! Doc is still worse than Mario but come on, man! It's not THAT bad.

Dude you watch jojo to? mad respect you have good taste.