DMG's Wario Guide Stuff Blah Stuff

[DMG]

You people STILL think that Yoshi is even? It's been established that Dino has a 65:35 advantage for a while.

I think I'll go cry now.

Bwett and I agree, it's probably 60:40 at best for Yoshi. That would be on a stage like FD. On BF Wario does a lot better, and can make it even or maybe even slightly in his favor without too much trouble.

 

[PKNintendo]

You people STILL think that Yoshi is even? It's been established that Dino has a 65:35 advantage for a while.

I think I'll go cry now.

What do you mean? you people?

 

[jehonaker]

Thoughts on Yoshi|Wario:

Even on Wario-friendly stages like Battlefield, the infinite still works perfectly. The chaingrab doesn't work as well, but they're both still options.
Yoshi is also arguably one of the few characters that can go toe-for-toe with the fat man in the air (Wario has a narrow edge there, but still...).

Yoshi has the Egg Throw to help keep you away. Wario can turn his bike into projectiles, but that burns precious time that might let the Yoshi destroy you.
Wario's moves are very disorienting, but the range is still pretty awful. Yoshi wins in the range department.

It's a match of momentum...if Yoshi gets rolling early and gets a chaingrab or infinite going, it's hopeless. You can go on a similar streak, but Wario doesn't have anything that decisively destroys Yoshi in the same way.

The match is anywhere from 50:50 to 65:35. I'd call it 60:40...Yoshi can consistently chaingrab on at least two of the starter stages (occasionally on a third). If he wins that first round, it goes uphill from there for Wario.

 

[Ace55]

Also, you don't want to really go through the D3, if they're quick enough they'll either pivot grab you before you can get away or turn around grab you, it's safer to just retreat the way you came. If they're facing you they can really do nothing about it.

As long as I autocancel dair (or use Nair) or even better jump away after it I think any character is gonna be hard pressed to release shield, then turn around grab or pivot grab.

 

[Vorguen]

Wario = shenanigans

 

[DMG]

Thoughts on Yoshi|Wario:

Even on Wario-friendly stages like Battlefield, the infinite still works perfectly. The chaingrab doesn't work as well, but they're both still options.
Yoshi is also arguably one of the few characters that can go toe-for-toe with the fat man in the air (Wario has a narrow edge there, but still...).

Yoshi has the Egg Throw to help keep you away. Wario can turn his bike into projectiles, but that burns precious time that might let the Yoshi destroy you.
Wario's moves are very disorienting, but the range is still pretty awful. Yoshi wins in the range department.

It's a match of momentum...if Yoshi gets rolling early and gets a chaingrab or infinite going, it's hopeless. You can go on a similar streak, but Wario doesn't have anything that decisively destroys Yoshi in the same way.

The match is anywhere from 50:50 to 65:35. I'd call it 60:40...Yoshi can consistently chaingrab on at least two of the starter stages (occasionally on a third). If he wins that first round, it goes uphill from there for Wario.

I know how to get out of the infinite fast. It's actually usually more productive to just go ahead and take the free Usmash/Uair and move on instead of trying to regrab. As for Egg Toss, that move is nearly useless here except for recovery purposes and maybe for trying to go for a gimp when Wario pulls out his bike, but even then it isn't too helpful. They are too easy to avoid and let's Wario get closer to Yoshi while Yoshi isn't really improving his position much.

Yoshi has bad OOS options, and Wario mutilates him there. Wario also kills a lot sooner than Yoshi can, and that's including the guaranteed setups Yoshi has.

I would say that at worst it is 60:40 on a stage like FD. On somewhere like Battlefield I think Wario could even squeeze out a marginal advantage, and same for Smashville (I love that moving platform )

 

[Mmac]

Yoshi has bad OOS options, and Wario mutilates him there. Wario also kills a lot sooner than Yoshi can, and that's including the guaranteed setups Yoshi has.

I wish people would stop bringing up OOS options as a glaring flaw. I know it is poor, but No Good Yoshi should Shield against Lagless attacks, and Wario has plenty of them. Direct Attacks and Pivot's work better as a defence, especially against SH Dairs.

It's true that Wario can kill sooner, but Yoshi still kills better, and the difference isn't really enough to make that much of an impact. Yoshi can also gather damage surprisingly fast from release combos, even without the Infinite. Perhaps there's a bit more Yoshi can do from release too that I haven't looked into, such as SH Dair and Upwards Fsmash.

I'm willing to go on 60:40, but I think there are some more things to be discussed that have yet to be on both sides

 

[DMG]

I wish people would stop bringing up OOS options as a glaring flaw. I know it is poor, but No Good Yoshi should Shield against Lagless attacks, and Wario has plenty of them. Direct Attacks and Pivot's work better as a defence, especially against SH Dairs.

While that may be true, it still stands that when Yoshi does shield that his options are not too great, and a character like Wario can take advantage of that. People may need to change their applications of his shield, but his shield is still somewhat bad when he does use it.

It's true that Wario can kill sooner, but Yoshi still kills better, and the difference isn't really enough to make that much of an impact. Yoshi can also gather damage surprisingly fast from release combos, even without the Infinite. Perhaps there's a bit more Yoshi can do from release too that I haven't looked into, such as SH Dair and Upwards Fsmash.

Waft says hello lol. That and Fsmash from Wario I think is stronger than Fsmash from Yoshi. For vertical kills Clap and Uair are about the same, and Clap is probably stronger than Yoshi's Usmash. That and Wario's kill moves are faster for the most part. What Yoshi does have are opportunities for guaranteed kill setups after a release, but you gotta get that grab first, and you better not be under a platform.

As for Dair, I would just SDI it fairly easily. Upwards Fsmash I think would hit, not sure what spacing issues there might be or not.

I'm willing to go on 60:40, but I think there are some more things to be discussed that have yet to be on both sides.

I think the biggest thing is to discuss how hard it really is to grab Wario and what are the safe %'s Yoshi can grab him at and not expect a ground break. For some stages though, I really do think Wario has it at even or better. But yes, moar discussing

 

[PKNintendo]

While that may be true, it still stands that when Yoshi does shield that his options are not too great, and a character like Wario can take advantage of that. People may need to change their applications of his shield, but his shield is still somewhat bad when he does use it.



Waft says hello lol. That and Fsmash from Wario I think is stronger than Fsmash from Yoshi. For vertical kills Clap and Uair are about the same, and Clap is probably stronger than Yoshi's Usmash. That and Wario's kill moves are faster for the most part. What Yoshi does have are opportunities for guaranteed kill setups after a release, but you gotta get that grab first, and you better not be under a platform.

As for Dair, I would just SDI it fairly easily. Upwards Fsmash I think would hit, not sure what spacing issues there might be or not.



I think the biggest thing is to discuss how hard it really is to grab Wario and what are the safe %'s Yoshi can grab him at and not expect a ground break. For some stages though, I really do think Wario has it at even or better. But yes, moar discussing

I think?

Dude, Wario Fsmash is MUCH stronger than Yoshi's. Your Bwett matches show this XD.

 

[Mmac]

Waft says hello lol. That and Fsmash from Wario I think is stronger than Fsmash from Yoshi. For vertical kills Clap and Uair are about the same, and Clap is probably stronger than Yoshi's Usmash. That and Wario's kill moves are faster for the most part. What Yoshi does have are opportunities for guaranteed kill setups after a release, but you gotta get that grab first, and you better not be under a platform.

As for Dair, I would just SDI it fairly easily. Upwards Fsmash I think would hit, not sure what spacing issues there might be or not.

I know that Wario is stronger, that's a given. Uair though is about twice as fast as the Clap, and more reliable to use. Even if his Kills do come out faster (Which I don't really agree), it's only by a bit. His Pivot Grabs should also count as a Kill Move, as it's completely linked to it.

I also think that some platforms can be used to Yoshi's Advantage too, especially the ones at Battlefield, though I think it would be best at open ground still.

I think the biggest thing is to discuss how hard it really is to grab Wario and what are the safe %'s Yoshi can grab him at and not expect a ground break.

You can't Ground Break during the first grab though... right?

I personally don't find Wario that hard to grab at all, but then again, I haven't really had much problem grabbing anyone... except Ike. **** his Gigantic Sword!

 

[DMG]

You can't Ground Break during the first grab though... right?

I personally don't find Wario that hard to grab at all, but then again, I haven't really had much problem grabbing anyone... except Ike. **** his Gigantic Sword!

I have broken to the ground on the first grab, but usually only if I absolutely know I am gonna get grabbed and start trying to break even before I get grabbed.

Also, dude you have some awesome Yoshi GIF's lol. And I actually picked him up somewhat seriously and hes really fun, no lie.

 

[Mmac]

I have broken to the ground on the first grab, but usually only if I absolutely know I am gonna get grabbed and start trying to break even before I get grabbed.

First, I like to mention that it's completely avoided if Yoshi prevents Chewing. If he is just going to setup a Air Release, then he shouldn't chew at all. Wario's aren't that delicious anyways.

Second, most of the time you'll probably won't expect to be grabbed. It's not like you are purposely throwing yourself into his grab so that you can break out in lighting fast speeds....

Unless....

Also, dude you have some awesome Yoshi GIF's lol. And I actually picked him up somewhat seriously and hes really fun, no lie.

Indeed, My GIF's and Yoshi are fun to use

Now I must Sleep...

 

[Popertop]

Mmac, your sig is pretty epic.
I only wish Yoshi looked like that.

 

[DMG]

First, I like to mention that it's completely avoided if Yoshi prevents Chewing. If he is just going to setup a Air Release, then he shouldn't chew at all. Wario's aren't that delicious anyways.

If you don't chew, then you won't get any damage done which would make the infinite almost more of a stall lol. If you just want to go for an Usmash/Uair, then that is perfect.

Second, most of the time you'll probably won't expect to be grabbed. It's not like you are purposely throwing yourself into his grab so that you can break out in lighting fast speeds....

Unless....

That's right, I get grabbed on purpose to show off meh skills. lol jk but what I mean is like if I approach with something and I get lag when I didn't expect it (Like I fastfall Dair near Yoshi and instead of being lagless Wario's head goes into the ground.) If I see that happening, you already know my fingers will be working lol.

Indeed, My GIF's and Yoshi are fun to use

Now I must Sleep...

Lol I just might go find some cool Wario GIF's and duke it out with you.

 

[stnapknah]

Hey, I'm having trouble with Marth. I looked over the board but I couldn't really find any advice other than "dodge a lot". Could you guys give a little more detail? I'm having a really hard time against the spacing and aerial spam. Then when i do get close, tilts become hard to counter and i just have to get out of there again. There are only a few (recent) videos of marth vs wario (thanks, DMG) that I watched but I was wondering if anyone could give more advice on the match-up. I'm basically just having a really hard time approaching-I'm not being stupid by trying to gimp him or something.

All help is appreciated. Thanks in advance!

 

[PhantomX]

There really isn't much advice we can give. You have to outplay your opponent if you want to beat the Marth. Stay grounded if you can, but at the same time avoid grabs and don't dodge or you'll get dancing bladed. It's gross. Kill with farts given the chance, and make sure to expect that stupid up b.

 

[DMG]

Lots of shield grabs, and you gotta be smart about it. Airdodge a lot, but don't spotdodge too much cause Dancing blade ***** that.

Try to Dair from a slight bit above Marth. Try to go above him when you expect a Fair or Nair and just Dair him. Once he starts to Uair when you jump above him, airdodge through it and either get to the ground or punish him if he is close enough.

For a fast punishing move up close, go with Nair in the air and just grab him is he is close enough to you on the ground.

But yeah, you just have to outplay your opponent in this matchup, only other thing I can think of is get really good at DI, I lived til like 229% on one stock vs Roy R and I could have lived longer if I DI'd better.

 

[PhantomX]

They don't even need to upair against you as long as they keep you zoned in front of them. Fair covers their top plenty :\

 

[MorphedChaos]

Hey, with this whole standing pivot grab thing, I'm going to revisit the infinite on MK, see if that helps out. If I find he can't break out... Wario will be an MK counter!

Yes, Mmac's GIFs are awesome, I'll have to make some with wario maybe...

And Phantom, I just can't get over how epic your avvi is. Pimp wario FTW.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

Wario's bad range is easy to avoid with his air speed and to turn around in the air instantly, mindgames!

 

[Mmac]

Hey, with this whole standing pivot grab thing, I'm going to revisit the infinite on MK, see if that helps out. If I find he can't break out... Wario will be an MK counter!

Nah, he slides too far back to be effective. Unless he has a good Boost Pivot, like Falco...

 

[stnapknah]

Hey guys I'm back. I played that guy again and i destroyed his Marth so thanks a lot!

But now I can't beat his peach lol
1. Her dair is too hard too approach unless wario is directly above peach
2. Nair approach or short hopped dair doesnt work either because of her fair
3. Dodging doesn't work because of the 50 thousand hitboxes she has
4. Turnip spam also gets annoying (especially with some of the things she gets with items off WTF!?)
5. If I do manage to get close, her downsmash obliterates me and I have to retreat again
6. and the worst one yet, F****ing grab release upsmash kills as low as 104%!

He probably beat me at a ratio of 3:1 so am I doing something wrong? Or is this just like the Marth match up where I have to outplay him? If so, then why is the matchup down for 50-50?

Thanks again.

 

[DMG]

If he approaches you with Dair or Fair, either go backwards, shield and try to counter attack when it is over, or try hitting him from the sides when he does Dair and from above when he does Fair.

For Dsmash, try a full hopped Dair, or even a full hopped Bite near the end to catch him off guard (It has a poor vertical hitbox so you should be safe.)

What I have found with Dair is that if they are just floating and using that move over and over, you can break your bike on purpose and use tires to stop him from doing that cause Dair has a long duration where he can't cancel it.. You can glide toss them Up, Down, or even just jump and throw them. Eventually he should be reevaluating his use of Dair and might start using something else.

As for Grab release Usmash, All I can advise it to get good at SDI and pick a side, usually just aim towards the general direction (left or right) of the center of the stage for the maximum distance possible.

 

[PhantomX]

You can't do anything against grab release except avoid it. Don't ever dodge dairs, tilt your shield up and sit through them, she'll have some lag when she's done w/ them that you can punish with an oos nair/up b/dair. When they fair, take note of whether or not they like to use jabs immediately after (most do) or if they like to try something else, and either shield or counter appropriately.
Bite them a lot if you can get inside their fair range.
Their dsmash is bad, SDI it up and then dair or something, watch out for the fsmash b/c it has deceptively large range. Turnips is just standard Wario item avoidance.

The key to this matchup is stay out of fair range, and make a move when you can catch them offguard or predict their choice.

 

[mc4]

Tl is a bad match up for wario. I checked the Tl boards and its 60-40 Tl's favor. I personally agree with that because after d3 i myself have the hardest time with TL's

 

[DMG]

Tl is a bad match up for wario. I checked the Tl boards and its 60-40 Tl's favor. I personally agree with that because after d3 i myself have the hardest time with TL's

Naw it's 60-40 for Wario, I already went to their boards and we agreed on that.

 

[Dynomite]

can someone help me on the snake match up?

 

[stnapknah]

DMG, where have you gone? </3

 

[PKNintendo]

He hangs out near the G&W boards alot. Occasional in the MK boards, and sometimes at the Diddy boards.

 

[DMG]

Hey guys, I am still here, I still use Wario. I just also use a ton of other characters well now.

 

[ksizl4life]

So why is thread different from all others? There isnt that much information for certain characters that are evolving their metagame. For so, can you thoroughly help with the wario / diddy matchup?

 

[DMG]

So why is thread different from all others? There isnt that much information for certain characters that are evolving their metagame. For so, can you thoroughly help with the wario / diddy matchup?

Because I am going over some of these matchups with a different play style than normal in mind. That and the Wario boards are dead so no one else usually is around to give me their opinion lol.

 

[stnapknah]

lol no DMG, WE MUST CONTINUE THIS THREAD!

 

[MorphedChaos]

Hey, I'm a frequent person on the Wario forums, I can give my opinions of things , I do need to get more well known though, but collage is annoying.

 

[Luigi player]

How the **** is Wario vs Zelda 55-45 for Wario?

Wario can't approach Zelda, because Zeldas fsmash + usmash beat everything he has. It's impossible...
They also have low ending lag and thus he can't even punish them...

Grab release to upsmash/fair also **** Wario...


How can Wario beat Zelda? =/

It isn't that bad though, I can bring her down to one stock, but nothing more...

 

[PhantomX]

We already discussed this with the Zelda people... they agree it's 50:50, maybe 55:45 for Wario if played right. Go to their boards and read the matchup thread there.

 

[bassem6]

Only ones I disagree with are game and watch and luigi. I would say its 55:45 their favor due to them being able to easily outprioritize wario.

 

[PhantomX]

It only seems more difficult on WiFi... once you're experienced in the matchups you'll see that they're quite even. Luigi doesn't flat out win b/c he can't approach us in the air due to slow aerial influence. Watch doesn't win because unless you make a mistake the guy can't kill you. I often live to 200% per stock against Hylian's Watch b/c he can't land a kill move unless I mess up. Luigis should also not land that deadly fsmash on you.

You can actually punish offline... so much so that I pretty much beat game and watch entirely by grabbing, haha.

 

[stnapknah]

How are the updates coming along, DMG?

 

[PKNintendo]

Hey DMG, whats the MK matchup? I swear to god, when I see MK I CP to Wario. IMO he doesn't get ***** by him, far from it, maybe like a... 50-50 or 55-45 for Wario. (yes Im crazy)