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Down B.

dodoromeo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 23, 2006
Messages
106
It would be awesome if Zelda's down b was that she pulled out a sword, giving her a slightly different move set. Agreed, this would make her not sub-par to sheik, but possibly sub-par to her sword move set. (lol->sub-par to yourself), this is providing that her sword move set would better than her magic one. I for one would love to see a sword-wielding Zelda, however, the chances that Sakurai would implement this is very low as a number of factors like simultaneous sword + item, and final smash... but a man can still dream i guess...
 

adumbrodeus

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 21, 2007
Messages
11,321
Location
Tri-state area
I feel the need to point out that characters in smash are Nintendo all-stars, they represent the character as a whole within their franchises, not the individual game that was most recent.

How do I know that? Think about Link, in SSB64, he used the boomerang, yet his model is clearly based on the OOT adult version which could not use boomerang. The same is true of Link in SSBM, except his kid link version flies even more in the face of continuity, using the hookshot and fairy bow (fire arrows no less), both of which are adult-only.

How do you explain this? Well, he used all 3 all the time in Link to the Past (great game, I suggest you play it).... Put two and two together.



As for the argument that the items still existed, so did the Sheikah, theoretically they could've trained Zelda in a similar manner.

However, I prefer it as a nod to an earlier game in the series that had a major impact, come on, who doesn't like OOT?
 

Noshiee

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Messages
689
Location
Viva Mexico Cabrones!
I feel the need to point out that characters in smash are Nintendo all-stars, they represent the character as a whole within their franchises, not the individual game that was most recent.

How do I know that? Think about Link, in SSB64, he used the boomerang, yet his model is clearly based on the OOT adult version which could not use boomerang. The same is true of Link in SSBM, except his kid link version flies even more in the face of continuity, using the hookshot and fairy bow (fire arrows no less), both of which are adult-only.

How do you explain this? Well, he used all 3 all the time in Link to the Past (great game, I suggest you play it).... Put two and two together.



As for the argument that the items still existed, so did the Sheikah, theoretically they could've trained Zelda in a similar manner.

However, I prefer it as a nod to an earlier game in the series that had a major impact, come on, who doesn't like OOT?
I totally agree with you, except that Young Link from Melee could be based on Majora's Mask Link (who is the same one from OoT, but you get the point),
 

Black/Light

Smash Master
Joined
May 23, 2006
Messages
3,207
I feel the need to point out that characters in smash are Nintendo all-stars, they represent the character as a whole within their franchises, not the individual game that was most recent.
Im sorry but thats kind of a moot point IMO. In melee and 64 ALL the characters where one character in their series besides LoZ Link and Zelda. Theres no "64 mario" and "GC mario" in the Mario series because mario is the same character in all the series games. Much like how Fox is the same Fox from all his games and Sonic the same Sonic in all his games which makes it reasonable to take elements from anything in any game they where in. LoZ is the only series in smash that has a new main character every game that goes by the same Name of the old main character so I don't think we can just chop it up as "he can and will use any element from any LoZ game like with Mario and etc". As we have seen with Brawl's Link he is willing to change things to reflect the newest form of Link.

The only thing I think Link's boomerang proves is that Sakurai doesn't have to follow the games exactly. That item and move is a staple in LoZ and technically Adult Link is still the same Young Link that could use said item. If Shiek was a staple ablitity in LoZ for most all Zeldas than I would think she would transform again but thats not the case.

And only one Sheikah was in TP. . . If she trained Zelda in TP than it must have been with that sword seeing as Zelda wasn't doing any Ninja moves.

On topic, I personally think her down B has changed. I can't find any reason to not reveal her Bv if it's the same. Even if he didn't update Pika's and Kirby's B moves he did show them too us in vids, pics and demos.
 

Drake3

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
756
Location
Canada
Im sorry but thats kind of a moot point IMO. In melee and 64 ALL the characters where one character in their series besides LoZ Link and Zelda. Theres no "64 mario" and "GC mario" in the Mario series because mario is the same character in all the series games. Much like how Fox is the same Fox from all his games and Sonic the same Sonic in all his games which makes it reasonable to take elements from anything in any game they where in. LoZ is the only series in smash that has a new main character every game that goes by the same Name of the old main character so I don't think we can just chop it up as "he can and will use any element from any LoZ game like with Mario and etc". As we have seen with Brawl's Link he is willing to change things to reflect the newest form of Link.

The only thing I think Link's boomerang proves is that Sakurai doesn't have to follow the games exactly. That item and move is a staple in LoZ and technically Adult Link is still the same Young Link that could use said item. If Shiek was a staple ablitity in LoZ for most all Zeldas than I would think she would transform again but thats not the case.

And only one Sheikah was in TP. . . If she trained Zelda in TP than it must have been with that sword seeing as Zelda wasn't doing any Ninja moves.

On topic, I personally think her down B has changed. I can't find any reason to not reveal her Bv if it's the same. Even if he didn't update Pika's and Kirby's B moves he did show them too us in vids, pics and demos.
Good rebuttal. I was actually going to ask if someone could use the continuity argument with a character that wasn't Link, but you can't because the LoZ characters are unique unto themselves. Yeah, Mario got a new gizmo, but he's still the same plumber he always was. A new Link is born into the role of the Hero of Time as a different person but sharing similar attributes.

Did anybody ever see Sheik fight in OoT? How do we know she was trained in the ninja ways? Isn't it possible that Zelda was just altering her physical appearance and can't actually do anything ninjaesque? Teaching songs and disappearing don't seem all that physically straining. All of her moves (sans deku nut) were constructed from the ground up because of Melee.

I think Link had the boomerang in Smash because it worked well for a B move. Zelda got the OoT magic because they translated well into combat spells. She kept them because there wasn't anything too wrong with them (some needed major buffs, but still). There was, however, something wrong with the Transformation skill. Which is why I think Zelda has a new Down+B too.
 

MACMO

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 16, 2007
Messages
36
I GOT IT!!!!!. . . . . . . . . PRINCESSES CHANGE!!!!!!

Zelda´s vB will change places (NOTE: not transform) with Midna that will have the same moves than sheik but more twilighty. The ligth and the twilight princesses.

*runs before flames*
 

adumbrodeus

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 21, 2007
Messages
11,321
Location
Tri-state area
Im sorry but thats kind of a moot point IMO. In melee and 64 ALL the characters where one character in their series besides LoZ Link and Zelda. Theres no "64 mario" and "GC mario" in the Mario series because mario is the same character in all the series games. Much like how Fox is the same Fox from all his games and Sonic the same Sonic in all his games which makes it reasonable to take elements from anything in any game they where in. LoZ is the only series in smash that has a new main character every game that goes by the same Name of the old main character so I don't think we can just chop it up as "he can and will use any element from any LoZ game like with Mario and etc". As we have seen with Brawl's Link he is willing to change things to reflect the newest form of Link.

The only thing I think Link's boomerang proves is that Sakurai doesn't have to follow the games exactly. That item and move is a staple in LoZ and technically Adult Link is still the same Young Link that could use said item. If Shiek was a staple ablitity in LoZ for most all Zeldas than I would think she would transform again but thats not the case.

And only one Sheikah was in TP. . . If she trained Zelda in TP than it must have been with that sword seeing as Zelda wasn't doing any Ninja moves.

On topic, I personally think her down B has changed. I can't find any reason to not reveal her Bv if it's the same. Even if he didn't update Pika's and Kirby's B moves he did show them too us in vids, pics and demos.
Look, the point I'm making is not that Sheik HAS to be Zelda's transformation.

As long as we are predicting what another human is going to decide, unless that person gives us absolutes, there are no absolutes. We do not know for sure whether he wants characters in smash to represent the individual incarnations, or the characters as a whole.

However, there is some evidence that it's the character as a whole allowing the picking and choosing of elements from any number of incarnations, that evidence would be the inconsistencies with Zelda's spells and Link's techniques (especially Young Link) in melee.

You admitted that it is an inconsistency (and your subsequent reasoning is rather thin since the entire point is that he doesn't have to follow the individual incarnations of the characters exactly, changes can be made how he wishes for the reasons he wishes)....

The only thing I think Link's boomerang proves is that Sakurai doesn't have to follow the games exactly




However, there really is no evidence that he is restricting himself as such, I see quite a bit of explaining away inconsistencies in the "only this incarnation" approach for a character, but no actual evidence that this is the approach taken by the game makers (and the changes in Link's moveset are no less valid under the "multiple character" approach).

Furthermore, since it's a restriction, it's the positive in the argument, so the burden of proof lies on the "only this incarnation" approach, the null hypothesis ALWAYS being nothing (no correlation, no restriction, no action) until replaced with an alternative hypothesis.



That and it simply stands to reason, Link was a popular character before Twilight Princess, his Icon represents the entire series, so why should he as a character in Smash, solely represent Twilight Princess?


I also wish to point out that, even though this approach does not require the appearance of Sheik, a "Twilight Princess visual version" Sheik being designed does strongly suggest that she will appear and by extension that this approach is correct, there would be no use for this except to match Zelda's visual style (trophies don't generally randomly change a character's visual style for instance).



Again, none of this confirms Sheik, but it certainly suggests her appearance over the vast majority of other potential characters.
 

SmashBrawler950

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 25, 2007
Messages
3
were did you get thatfrom? Sheik might be in because sakurai said that they had received designs for Sheik and Ganondorf's new looks :psycho:
 
Joined
Oct 23, 2007
Messages
1,303
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Rochester, NY
With the strong possibilty Sheik is gone (IMO) due to her being in her twilight princess look, Zelda will need a new down B. What could it be?

And before you start saying that because she kept the other three moves she'll keep Sheik too, keep in mind that the three things she used in Melee were items in Hyrule that could have been kept during the 50 odd years between OoT and TP also keep in mind that Zelda is the head of the sages of Hyrule so it wouldn't be odd to think that the goddesses would each bless her with some sort of power. That can all make sense, but Sheik just wouldn't. It's like having Tom Nook transform into Crazy Redd.
Her magical abilities are the same. She could've transformed if she really wanted to. I mean that cloak she wore in the beginning had Sheik's symbol on it, as did the howling stones. What does that tell you?

And it would be NOTHING like your Tom Nook situation.


(I know that they showed it on the SSE movie clip thingy, but some people said that it could have been anything, that maybee she didnt had it in her moveset, and that was a before game released thing, and maybe it wasnt going to be in the game and stuff)
The people that said that are idiots.
 

•Col•

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Messages
2,450
Her magical abilities are the same. She could've transformed if she really wanted to. I mean that cloak she wore in the beginning had Sheik's symbol on it, as did the howling stones. What does that tell you?
.
Do you know where I could find a picture her with the cloak? I really didn't notice the symbol when I played the game, and since I've recently been hearing that the Sheikah symbol is on it, I've been getting more curious about it...
 

Iris

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 31, 2007
Messages
532
Would anyone mind explaining why the Eye of Truth symbol represents Sheikahs? I'm not disagreeing, I'm just not sure about the basis behind it. I always thought it was just a symbol on things, like the Triforce or that golden bird.
 
Joined
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Do you know where I could find a picture her with the cloak? I really didn't notice the symbol when I played the game, and since I've recently been hearing that the Sheikah symbol is on it, I've been getting more curious about it...
Well I played the game recently and I noticed it. Most youtube videos don't have the quality for it to show up, because it's basically dark gray against black. But it's there. And you can also look at the howling stones.
 

The rAt

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 1, 2003
Messages
669
Location
In a constant state of self-examination. In MN.
Would anyone mind explaining why the Eye of Truth symbol represents Sheikahs? I'm not disagreeing, I'm just not sure about the basis behind it. I always thought it was just a symbol on things, like the Triforce or that golden bird.
It doesn't. The only reason folks associate it with them is because it was prominent in Sheik's costume. You're probably right about it being just a symbol. I always thought it made sense that it was a reference to the Eye of Truth than the Sheikah.


Anyhow, regarding the debate in general, I'm pretty sure the mods set up thread about how these Sheik debates in the Zelda section need to end. In fact I'm positive. Here it is:


http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=125310

What's more, they're right because everything that can be said has been said. Twice. Maybe even three times. And pissy fanboys on both sides make it personal. Like calling people idiots for not seeing the same things as them in blurry, poor resolution pictures/videos, for example.

The topic at hand, as I understand it, wasn't to debate whether or not Sheik will be back, but assuming she wasn't, but to brainstorm what could replace her in Zelda's moveset.

So, here's an idea; why don't we focus on that, and leave the unfounded claims about how Sheik will/won't/should/shouldn't/can/can't return to the millions of "I heart Sheik", "I hate Sheik", and "Sheik is a potato" threads in the general character section so the rest don't have to read the same **** arguements every ten seconds, m'kay?

I realize saying all that makes me a hypocrite, but eventually the madness has to end. :dizzy:


EDIT: Actually, THIS was the one I meant to link:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=126323
 

papagenos

Smash Champion
Joined
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2,494
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if zelda couldn't turn into shiek they'd have shown her moves and let us move on. however if they have some sweet new shiek design they don't wanna show us yet they'd do what they're doing and hide zeldas moves from us. also we KNOW after seeing that zelda has an oot costume she is NOT exclusively twilight princess zelda. so in my opinion all signs point to shiek.
 

hungrybum

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 22, 2007
Messages
363
Pirates >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ninjas.
totally agree
what they could could do is give zelda a new down-b and give sheik's old moveset to another character: IMPA (who is btw far more important than sheik)
 

Arean

Smash Ace
Joined
May 2, 2006
Messages
559
I GOT IT!!!!!. . . . . . . . . PRINCESSES CHANGE!!!!!!

Zelda´s vB will change places (NOTE: not transform) with Midna that will have the same moves than sheik but more twilighty. The ligth and the twilight princesses.

*runs before flames*
I had the same Idea before.. but how is that relevant to zelda... Midna can have her own character slot.... and give zelda a new one
 

Soluble Toast

Smash Ace
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if zelda couldn't turn into shiek they'd have shown her moves and let us move on. however if they have some sweet new shiek design they don't wanna show us yet they'd do what they're doing and hide zeldas moves from us. also we KNOW after seeing that zelda has an oot costume she is NOT exclusively twilight princess zelda. so in my opinion all signs point to shiek.

Except, the " OOT" costume is more than likely a nod to Melee Zelda more than OOT specifically, since the costume isn't the OOT costume, but the TP costume with Melee's colours.

That's like saying Mario gains Wario's moves when he has the " Wario" costume on.

Plus, what's the suspense in Zelda if NOTHING about her has changed?
Sheik's " new look" isn't enough. I can't see them drastically altering her look. She'll be upgraded to look more realistic, and perhaps become brunette.

That is hardly anything to hold out 6+ months for.

If Sakurai is holding out for suspense, I think a lot is pointing to something other than Sheik.
 

Soluble Toast

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Zelda has no bow, link does and light arrows will make her to similar to pit.

The light spirits bless Zelda with her very own bow in Twilight Princess. ;]
Her arrows could easily be made to both, look and feel different to Pit's bow.
 

Ztarfish

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 23, 2007
Messages
484
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B-Town Colorado
I had a dream last night where I was playing Zelda and I pressed Down-B and I turned into Sheik and I screamed.

That aside, Pit's arrows were made distinctively different than Link's arrows, so it's not impossible that they could give Zelda arrows that were made different than the both.
 

hungrybum

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 22, 2007
Messages
363
Her magical abilities are the same. She could've transformed if she really wanted to. I mean that cloak she wore in the beginning had Sheik's symbol on it, as did the howling stones. What does that tell you?


TP Zelda can't transform in Sheik because Sheik is what Impa teched to Zelda. Impa isn't in TP so how would Zelda be able to transform in Sheik?
BTW the sign Zelda wore in TP was the Sheika's(Impa's race in OoT) not Sheik's
 

tafutureboy

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 9, 2007
Messages
867
Location
Texas
let me throw in my 2 cents.........shieks in but no as down B
why would they withhold her and not give her even one update
i'm going with this
we have another transformation FS
 

Ztarfish

Smash Journeyman
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Nov 23, 2007
Messages
484
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B-Town Colorado
Sheik as a FS would be THE MOST anti-climactic thing anyone could ever come up with in the history of the universe. If they're going to keep it secret for all this time it BETTER be something actually effing amazing.
 

Circus

Rhymes with Jerkus
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 9, 2007
Messages
5,164
let me throw in my 2 cents.........shieks in but no as down B
why would they withhold her and not give her even one update
i'm going with this
we have another transformation FS
Bowser
Samus
Wario
Sonic

And then Zelda too?

Seriously, is Sakurai THAT lacking in creativity?
 

Stiputation

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
263
Honestly, if we HAD to have Sheik attached to Zelda's hip AGAIN. I WOULD NOT WANT HER AS AN FS! Seriously, I really despise Sheik, and having everyone else jump around the scre
en in search of FSs and me just standing there because I don't want it wouldn't be very nice ): I'd have to turn the smash balls off......and I wouldn't want to do that.

Even though I'd rather not have Sheik in at all, I'd much rather have her as a transformation for the simply because we already know that shes been buffed, and made prettier. So I guess I could live with it.
BUT I DO NOT WANT SHEIK A PART OF ZELDA DO NOT! DO NOT! DO NOT!
Goodness, Zelda needs to be a whole character this time around. :/
 

-spAzn-

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Messages
265
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Tacoma, WA
Honestly, if we HAD to have Sheik attached to Zelda's hip AGAIN. I WOULD NOT WANT HER AS AN FS! Seriously, I really despise Sheik, and having everyone else jump around the scre
en in search of FSs and me just standing there because I don't want it wouldn't be very nice ): I'd have to turn the smash balls off......and I wouldn't want to do that.

Even though I'd rather not have Sheik in at all, I'd much rather have her as a transformation for the simply because we already know that shes been buffed, and made prettier. So I guess I could live with it.
BUT I DO NOT WANT SHEIK A PART OF ZELDA DO NOT! DO NOT! DO NOT!
Goodness, Zelda needs to be a whole character this time around. :/
Once again QFT.

I really don't hate Sheik but I don't like her either. If Sheik has to be Zelda's down b so be it but if Sheik is Zelda's FS I would be angry. Probably never use her FS because I don't want to be stuck as Sheik especially if I didn't intend to be her in the first place. This is what made Zelda unique her ability to transform whenever you want. So hopefully Sheik is her down b or a totally seperate character but please not her FS. Though I would be ok with light arrows or something else as her down b as well.
 

hungrybum

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 22, 2007
Messages
363
No. Did you also notice characters with complicated movesets weren't in either? Like Pokemon Trainer(since he's 3 in one), Kirby(his copy move), etc. Zelda was shown in the SSE trailer at E for All, with a computer playing as her. She looks great, although I'm not liking her dress - it's huge.
How can you explain Lucas, Snake and Wario?
 

Soluble Toast

Smash Ace
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Today's event makes me uneasy about Sheik..
In one of the event pictures you can see ZS Samus, and Zelda together.

Transforming woman vs other transforming woman?

It could just be girl power, but it still makes me sightly uneasy =S
 

.:~*Momo*~:.

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 15, 2007
Messages
624
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Fairyland
Once again QFT.

I really don't hate Sheik but I don't like her either. If Sheik has to be Zelda's down b so be it but if Sheik is Zelda's FS I would be angry. Probably never use her FS because I don't want to be stuck as Sheik especially if I didn't intend to be her in the first place. This is what made Zelda unique her ability to transform whenever you want. So hopefully Sheik is her down b or a totally seperate character but please not her FS. Though I would be ok with light arrows or something else as her down b as well.
I agree, I'd hate it if I used Zelda's FS and ended up as Sheik.

Though I myself want Sheik to NOT be part of Zelda's moveset... I'd love for Zelda to be her own character this time around without having to rely on a transformation.
 

TheLake

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 8, 2007
Messages
3,057
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Butler PA
I would like sheik in the game. I dont care if its a FS, PC, or transformation.

Im still gonna stick with zelda (:
 
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