If I told you they can shield it and dash grab you before your reflector was over would you believe me?
**** sucks. I recommend it for aerial use for when they're side-b'ing back or something.
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Falco Matchup Thread #32: Ice Climbers
- Thread starter -DR3W-
- Start date
**** sucks. I recommend it for aerial use for when they're side-b'ing back or something.
teluoborg
Smash Otter
I never said mindlessly spamming
IAP is still really good against people that want to grab you. And they might try to disguise it but in the end ICs just want to hold you tightly.
God. D: That sucks. I was thinking about it's aerial use too but didn't know about how silly is the usual option.
Yeah much safer in the air. Don't risk them getting the
Bloodcross
Smash Champion
Reflector can beat Side B and put either of the Climbers in free fall. Though our aerials can do that too, not sure how the moves put them in free fall but it works. Aside from a read Blizzard (imo they don't need that move in this matchup at all really), Reflector isn't so useful.
Wanna know what's better against people who run up and shield than Side B? Grab. Our standing grab outranges all of IC's grabs. If they spotdodge our grab, we get a guaranteed Jab on them (surprised I didn't see that info in this MU thread). This is probably the case if they spotdodge our Ftilt as well.
Picking the right throw option is key in this matchup too. If you pick the wrong option, Popo can Fsmash you (thankfully not grab you since usually you'll be far away enough to turn around Jab/grab before they can get to you). Fthrow to Jab/ftilt is a legit option at lower percents. Bthrow to ****ing up Nana is obv what we want the most, but you won't always get away with this. Upthrow is okay at center-stage especially at (nana's) higher percents. There's probably zero chance of Popo getting hit by the lasers from upthrow though, so bthrow is still infinitely better. Dthrow is only decent at best, it shouldn't be hard for Climbers regroup in that situation plus Popo can usually get a Fsmash on you as well.
^All of this is under the assumption you grabbed a grounded Ice Climbers.
Mixups with grab, Side B, and tilts, like most matchups, are really important. Keeps the opponent guessing... actually that's what you want Ice Climbers to do the most. Like what Bleachigo said a while back, Ice Climbers have to throw a move out before you Phantasm. That post is good, read it.
Weak Bair > Dair = psuedo Ken Combo.
Wanna know what's better against people who run up and shield than Side B? Grab. Our standing grab outranges all of IC's grabs. If they spotdodge our grab, we get a guaranteed Jab on them (surprised I didn't see that info in this MU thread). This is probably the case if they spotdodge our Ftilt as well.
Picking the right throw option is key in this matchup too. If you pick the wrong option, Popo can Fsmash you (thankfully not grab you since usually you'll be far away enough to turn around Jab/grab before they can get to you). Fthrow to Jab/ftilt is a legit option at lower percents. Bthrow to ****ing up Nana is obv what we want the most, but you won't always get away with this. Upthrow is okay at center-stage especially at (nana's) higher percents. There's probably zero chance of Popo getting hit by the lasers from upthrow though, so bthrow is still infinitely better. Dthrow is only decent at best, it shouldn't be hard for Climbers regroup in that situation plus Popo can usually get a Fsmash on you as well.
^All of this is under the assumption you grabbed a grounded Ice Climbers.
Mixups with grab, Side B, and tilts, like most matchups, are really important. Keeps the opponent guessing... actually that's what you want Ice Climbers to do the most. Like what Bleachigo said a while back, Ice Climbers have to throw a move out before you Phantasm. That post is good, read it.
Weak Bair > Dair = psuedo Ken Combo.
People need to grab more against ICs, it's not as bad is it sounds. If you know which throws are the best, you should do fine. I know Falco doesn't have any Lucario Fthrows around, but grabbing is a really easy way to separate them and it's not very easy for them to grab you if you have one of the grabbed.
And why do you think Blizzard isn't important? It basically covers everything except reflector which sucks anyways.
And why do you think Blizzard isn't important? It basically covers everything except reflector which sucks anyways.
teluoborg
Smash Otter
What usually happens when I try to grab is that : they spotdodge, I try to stuff the dodge with a jab, the dodge ends earlier, they shield then shieldgrab it.
è_é
Jabbing after getting your Grab/Ftilt dodged is good but doesn't work 100% of the time, and imo the risk/reward is really not in Falco's favor in this matchup. Especially when the IC player mashes the C stick when he sees he's gonna get grabbed.
Phantasm is forever broken tho, Utilt breaks it but is too slow and requires the ICs to not be shielding in the first place.
Bloodcross
Smash Champion
If they have guaranteed blizzard camboes, then they can go ahead and use blizzard. They don't exactly have to use it though
Well, we're disadvantaged at the start of the match no matter what imo; we have to plan our approach while they'll just run around and wait for side b, short hops, etc if they know how to fight Falco (I'm saying they don't have much to think about compared to a falco player in this matchup). So one has to ignore this risk/reward ratio and just go for the reads. I suppose it's a good point that they can shield jab if the dodge ends too early. God knows we're not gonna notice their spotdodge frames 100% of the time. I still say **** it imo, we shouldn't be afraid to use our arsenal. I feel that this is a matchup where we can/should be creative with how we play here. And utilt does break side b... but like the rest of their moves, you can wait it out and side b after the move ends (just realized you said that already lol). If you do end up getting hit by it, you can DI up a bit and/or side b again. Anything is better than getting grabbed in that situation, even getting juggled for like 30% by uairs or aforementioned utilt or something... which is much less of a problem than a possible instant death.
Masha Side B's are good too
Well, we're disadvantaged at the start of the match no matter what imo; we have to plan our approach while they'll just run around and wait for side b, short hops, etc if they know how to fight Falco (I'm saying they don't have much to think about compared to a falco player in this matchup). So one has to ignore this risk/reward ratio and just go for the reads. I suppose it's a good point that they can shield jab if the dodge ends too early. God knows we're not gonna notice their spotdodge frames 100% of the time. I still say **** it imo, we shouldn't be afraid to use our arsenal. I feel that this is a matchup where we can/should be creative with how we play here. And utilt does break side b... but like the rest of their moves, you can wait it out and side b after the move ends (just realized you said that already lol). If you do end up getting hit by it, you can DI up a bit and/or side b again. Anything is better than getting grabbed in that situation, even getting juggled for like 30% by uairs or aforementioned utilt or something... which is much less of a problem than a possible instant death.
Masha Side B's are good too
Dekillsage
Smash Lord
Somethings
to take into consideration
A lot of Ice Climbers grab set ups only work from 0-30%, so this is when you should play the most cautious.
Also when IC's use Side B and you hit them as they land always be aware that you can hit popo but their will often be times Nana won't get hit. This is because she ends up in the Z-axis when the Ic's do side b (nana spins around sopo. Popo is the sun and nana is the earth) so when they land she may or may not be invincible. This often leads to you getting fsmashed after punishing popo, so if you're at nana fsmash kill % just be aware of this.
Bloodcross is right when he says **** it and use all your tools. Sometimes you gotta yolo at the Ic's in order to get an advantage. Remember that nana will always be 5 frames behind popo in inputs, and she has trouble perfect shielding because of this. He's also right when he says just take the god damn 30% uair punish. It's amazing how people would rather land in front of Ic's and die instead of taking a small punish.
Also some more general vs Ic's stuff
Learn to realize when you're going to get grabbed and mash preemptively, only mash during the start of a chain grab, and during the end of the chaingrab(when they're charging). In between don't mash and jump away if they drop it.
Don't spotdodge vs this character. Rolling is almost always better, and so is grabbing them. Falco's fthrow has a hitbox, use it when you're scared.
Blizzard is bad once it can turn you into Ice. Just sdi away or sdi into them and hit them with bair for free(Mk can do this with dair so I'm just assuming falco can do the same with bair).
Blizzard on block is also very unsafe. If they're both doing blizzard on your shield at the same time just usmash oos after it ends. If they're using desync blizzard they're probably gonna grab you for blocking so roll I suppose. I'm not exactly sure what you're supposed to do with falco here, I'd have to ask an Ic's main.
I'm going to ask a friend about Falco's lazer use in this match up. It does... something but I don't remember what still -_-
to take into consideration
A lot of Ice Climbers grab set ups only work from 0-30%, so this is when you should play the most cautious.
Also when IC's use Side B and you hit them as they land always be aware that you can hit popo but their will often be times Nana won't get hit. This is because she ends up in the Z-axis when the Ic's do side b (nana spins around sopo. Popo is the sun and nana is the earth) so when they land she may or may not be invincible. This often leads to you getting fsmashed after punishing popo, so if you're at nana fsmash kill % just be aware of this.
Bloodcross is right when he says **** it and use all your tools. Sometimes you gotta yolo at the Ic's in order to get an advantage. Remember that nana will always be 5 frames behind popo in inputs, and she has trouble perfect shielding because of this. He's also right when he says just take the god damn 30% uair punish. It's amazing how people would rather land in front of Ic's and die instead of taking a small punish.
Also some more general vs Ic's stuff
Learn to realize when you're going to get grabbed and mash preemptively, only mash during the start of a chain grab, and during the end of the chaingrab(when they're charging). In between don't mash and jump away if they drop it.
Don't spotdodge vs this character. Rolling is almost always better, and so is grabbing them. Falco's fthrow has a hitbox, use it when you're scared.
Blizzard is bad once it can turn you into Ice. Just sdi away or sdi into them and hit them with bair for free(Mk can do this with dair so I'm just assuming falco can do the same with bair).
Blizzard on block is also very unsafe. If they're both doing blizzard on your shield at the same time just usmash oos after it ends. If they're using desync blizzard they're probably gonna grab you for blocking so roll I suppose. I'm not exactly sure what you're supposed to do with falco here, I'd have to ask an Ic's main.
I'm going to ask a friend about Falco's lazer use in this match up. It does... something but I don't remember what still -_-
teluoborg
Smash Otter
I personnally have already spent 7 lives worth of yolo in this matchup so now I'm dedicated to make every IC hate my character.
And a good portion of this strat relies on never giving even a slight chance to make use of the AT they practiced the most.
To each his motivations I guess.
And a good portion of this strat relies on never giving even a slight chance to make use of the AT they practiced the most.
To each his motivations I guess.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
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So, what is the big picture strategy going into facing ICs?
To me, I think its pretty apparent that if you can KO Nana, you should win the stock. However, I see hardly any discussion at all on keeping the two separated which I think should be the whole goal of the match-up. Learn the Nana AI so that you can abuse their separation to the maximum.
http://www.smashboards.com/threads/knowing-your-nana.307567/
I think its worth it to use this as a starting point to learn how the AI works. Oddly enough, playing against CPU is actually really helpful for learning a match-up. Play against the lv9 CPU and learn to abuse the AI on Nana. For example, if separated, Nana will take the shortest route to get back to Popo ignoring the danger in the way. So, you can charge an Fsmash at Popo, and then Nana will run right through your charging Fsmash. If the ICs ever have to recover with UpB, grab the ledge if the distance is right since while Popo gets on for free, you often get a free stock on Nana. Killing Nana is like getting the kill on Popo.
The AI on the ground is fairly obvious. However, the AI in the air I have not been able to figure out all that much, I think more attention needs to be paid to how Nana operates in the air above platforms, near the stage surface, and offstage both far and near. It always seems like Nana will prefer to fire one ice block when recovering from super high-far offstage. That would seem like very valuable time to get a Dair Spike on Nana at that point.
Match-up Staging
1) Work to separate.
2) Once separated, KO Nana.
3) Then KO popo.
And as mentioned before, Grab is wonderful at separating. Fthrow/Bthrow over Dthrow are more preferred since fthrow/bthrow have active hitboxes on top of falco, then have the active hitbox on the thrown IC for dead weight. The range of hitbox from fthrow/bthrow is larger than Dthrow. Even if you miss, the moves are much faster. I think never use Dthrow as it does not knock the other one away from you. Only disrupts them slightly.
To me, I think its pretty apparent that if you can KO Nana, you should win the stock. However, I see hardly any discussion at all on keeping the two separated which I think should be the whole goal of the match-up. Learn the Nana AI so that you can abuse their separation to the maximum.
http://www.smashboards.com/threads/knowing-your-nana.307567/
I think its worth it to use this as a starting point to learn how the AI works. Oddly enough, playing against CPU is actually really helpful for learning a match-up. Play against the lv9 CPU and learn to abuse the AI on Nana. For example, if separated, Nana will take the shortest route to get back to Popo ignoring the danger in the way. So, you can charge an Fsmash at Popo, and then Nana will run right through your charging Fsmash. If the ICs ever have to recover with UpB, grab the ledge if the distance is right since while Popo gets on for free, you often get a free stock on Nana. Killing Nana is like getting the kill on Popo.
The AI on the ground is fairly obvious. However, the AI in the air I have not been able to figure out all that much, I think more attention needs to be paid to how Nana operates in the air above platforms, near the stage surface, and offstage both far and near. It always seems like Nana will prefer to fire one ice block when recovering from super high-far offstage. That would seem like very valuable time to get a Dair Spike on Nana at that point.
Match-up Staging
1) Work to separate.
2) Once separated, KO Nana.
3) Then KO popo.
And as mentioned before, Grab is wonderful at separating. Fthrow/Bthrow over Dthrow are more preferred since fthrow/bthrow have active hitboxes on top of falco, then have the active hitbox on the thrown IC for dead weight. The range of hitbox from fthrow/bthrow is larger than Dthrow. Even if you miss, the moves are much faster. I think never use Dthrow as it does not knock the other one away from you. Only disrupts them slightly.
Bloodcross
Smash Champion
Footstool to Side B is a neat tool as well.
Dekillsage
Smash Lord
Don't footstool Ic's ever. They'll grab you for it
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
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They will reach up and grab your foot as you bounce off them and drag you down to the ground slamming.
Matgic
Smash Rookie
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This matchup is campy by nature, but it never seems to work by camping the vast majority of the time. Eventually they will get a read and land a grab. The most important thing is to remain unpredictable safely if that makes any sense. Proper spacing and use of lasers is helpful, as well as careful use of phantasm. I've found a quick bthrow or dethrow can work, as the lasers fired tend to stop a punish from the other climber while separating them. Stuff like a BDACUS can get you killed if they shield it, so it has to be really surprising. I think the hardest part is recovery. Again, once they get a read on habits it can mean a stock. Platforms are a good option and make it harder to complete a cg. A possible mixup would be empty shorthop (to draw a shield) followed by a grab and attempt to keep them separated. The key is to notice when you slip into a rhythm or pattern and break it, because they tend to pick up on that kind of thing. I would say this is a definite advantage ic's, maybe 60-40 or 55-45.
1PokeMastr
Smash Champion
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Take a wild guess.
Ultimate~Anarchy
Smash Rookie
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This MU is most definitely ice climbers favor. But, you can make this MU much easier than it looks. Number one don't get grabbed. That was a general statement, but don't get grabbed, there are so many ways around not getting grabbed. For example, be very intelligent with your recovery, this can be the death of you. Next be mindful of stage mechanics such as platforms ect. Keep a fairly good distance away from ic's for the sole reason of not getting grabbed and killed. 50% of the time use lasers and phantasm, 10% of the time jabs, 10% grabs (get the read), and 30% well spaced aerials preferably bair. To eliminate the large threat in this mu get rid of NANA! This will eliminate your limitations against ic and you will have a greater advantage, just be aware of popo at early percents because of the single cg. Number two keep your cool and stick with a positive mind set. Without this the mu will be a pain in the ass, and you will get destroyed because you will not be thinking straight, and you will be cg'd to death.
Ultimate~Anarchy
Smash Rookie
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Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
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This needs more talk about Falco's greatest strength in the match-up.
Abusing when they are separated.
ICs are most dangerous to Falco only when together. Therefore, it would be best to somehow get a reliable way to separate them. Once separated you can try to destroy one or the other. Obviously, Nana is CPU controlled most of the time and therefore the weakest link and the best case to develop a combo-to-death strategy. Once done you have the advantage over popo as "falco is as falco does".
So, what ways are there to separate? Grab to me seems the best way to physically remove at any percent. Otherwise, you have to rely upon messed up DI between Nana and Popo not being synced which typically requires higher percents.
Given separation how to KO Nana? Nana is stupid and will literally run past you to get to Popo. Therefore, charged Fsmash being Falco's strongest move can allow for quick KOs at lower percent. Additionally, spiking. I am not certain their reaction offstage, but abusing jumping from CPU to Falco's spike is another way to end the stock quickly.
The good thing about all this too is that you can learn the IC match-up in part from home by learning Nana's habits when separated from Nana.
Abusing when they are separated.
ICs are most dangerous to Falco only when together. Therefore, it would be best to somehow get a reliable way to separate them. Once separated you can try to destroy one or the other. Obviously, Nana is CPU controlled most of the time and therefore the weakest link and the best case to develop a combo-to-death strategy. Once done you have the advantage over popo as "falco is as falco does".
So, what ways are there to separate? Grab to me seems the best way to physically remove at any percent. Otherwise, you have to rely upon messed up DI between Nana and Popo not being synced which typically requires higher percents.
Given separation how to KO Nana? Nana is stupid and will literally run past you to get to Popo. Therefore, charged Fsmash being Falco's strongest move can allow for quick KOs at lower percent. Additionally, spiking. I am not certain their reaction offstage, but abusing jumping from CPU to Falco's spike is another way to end the stock quickly.
The good thing about all this too is that you can learn the IC match-up in part from home by learning Nana's habits when separated from Nana.
Unless you get solo cg'd into grab release at the ledge into footstool.
I've seen it done and I've done myself. If you aren't aware of this and just jump up, you'll get royally ****ed.
teluoborg
Smash Otter
Yeah but if you get grabbed by Sopo it's kinda your own fault lol. Poor thing has like the 4th worst grab range in the game and can't even compensate it by grabbing high like Falcon.
But yeah Sopo can do dirty things to Falco out of a Dthrow, the most humiliating being Dtilt at the ledge.
But yeah Sopo can do dirty things to Falco out of a Dthrow, the most humiliating being Dtilt at the ledge.