Fox Match-Ups

[Foxy K]

So I'm having trouble with the Ness matchup. I honestly don't know how to approach this. My friend simply camps on one end of the stage, and punishes me with a grab. Keep in mind that I try to approach with Nairs and Dairs. I'm still very nooby so I was hoping that I was SHFFL'ING correctly or whatever in order to be safe, but it turns out as I am not as I am easily grabbed out of it upon block. Either I suck, or Nair and dair isn't as safe as I think it is.

So advice for the matchup in general please?

Sounds like you're just not doing it right. Are you getting the L-cancel? Fox will flash if you're doing it right. That's step 1. All that does is allow you to move afterward quickly enough to not get hit by anything. The shine after is what makes it safe. If he tries to grab, the shine will hit him before he's able to grab you. So,

1. SHFFL: Make sure you're L canceling properly.
2. Shine: This comes out quicker than anything he can do out of his shield.
3. Wavedash, or jump, or SHFFL again: If your shine hits his shield because he held it up, you'll either want to wavedash through him for a cross up, backwards for safety, or keep hitting his shield with more SHFFLed aerials into more shines. Keep in mind that doing all of this fast enough to work is very difficult and fatiguing on the hands.

 

[Sir_Africa]

Hmmm, I guess I'm just not doing it correctly. I think just my L-cancelling is the issue, cuz it looks pretty safe when I do it but I guess not seeing as how Ness managed to just immediately grab me like nothing on block. But okay, I guess I'll work on my execution. Any other tips for approaching a defensive Ness?

EDIT: I'm in the lab atm practicing SHFFLing and damn, only now do I realize Fox requires good execution in order to be played well.

 

[rpotts]

Delay your nair as long as possible before hitting his shield, this accomplishes two things. First, it guarantees you'll hit with the strong nair hitbox and not the late, weak hitbox, which will do more damage and thus have more shield stun. Second, it allows you to hit his shield lower and get to the ground faster, closing the gap between the nair and the following shine. If you hit him at the top of his shield he'll have a much bigger window to shield grab you than if you hit him low.

Also, if he's always shielding when you approach, why don't you just run up and grab him?

 

[Sir_Africa]

@ rpotts Ohhh! That makes a lot of sense! Now that I think about it, I am actually hitting the nair really early and hitting my opponent at the apex of my short hop. I'll try what you suggested. ALSO! I can't seem to grab consistently for 2 reasons.

1.) I'll run into a PK fire and eat 4 more PK fires afterward or a grab or a fsmash.
2.) I'll for some reason whiff my grab, and then I'll get grabbed. But yeah! I was thinking of grabbing more and doing it more correctly because I realized as well that all he does is wait to shield me.

 

[Nemiak temp]

@ rpotts Ohhh! That makes a lot of sense! Now that I think about it, I am actually hitting the nair really early and hitting my opponent at the apex of my short hop. I'll try what you suggested. ALSO! I can't seem to grab consistently for 2 reasons.

1.) I'll run into a PK fire and eat 4 more PK fires afterward or a grab or a fsmash.
2.) I'll for some reason whiff my grab, and then I'll get grabbed. But yeah! I was thinking of grabbing more and doing it more correctly because I realized as well that all he does is wait to shield me.

Do less moves against Ness. Even with perfect l-canceling and all that you're still putting yourself in lag which will be punished by pk fire or grab or whatever. Ness' punishes against fox are free so just make sure you give him as little openings as possible. Recognize the angles ness can use to throw PK fire. (from standing, short hop, b-reversing them, DJC etc.) Once you learn to maneuver around his nonsense Grab a BUNCH. Uthrow bair/upair. Dthrow if you notice they roll the same way everytime and punish with upsmash. Edgeguarding Ness is tough because if you get hit by his up-b chance are you'll die. Just stay patient and space your bair (PERFECTLY, TRADING WITH PKT2 SUCKS).
TLDR: Learn to avoid PK fire and this matchup is free. Oh and don't get grabbed. And stay the **** away from FD

 

[Sir_Africa]

So is Fox's uair free on Ness after an up throw? There have been times when it gets beaten or traded with I think Ness' down air? I'm just curious if I'm mis-timing it or if I should just let him fall back down and then chase him down with another grab again.

 

[ep1c_marf]

Fox vs Mewtwo? someone help?

 

[Sir_Africa]

Anyone know the best way to punish players who just move around by dodge rolling?

 

[bksbestbwoy]

Anyone know the best way to punish players who just move around by dodge rolling?

I imagine just dash dancing or using dash up - wavedash back/in place to feint them or spot their roll patternswould work wonders. You could also go full try hard mode and try full speed pivot grabs to put the fear of God into them.

 

[DMG]

If you're not sure about punishing rolls (roll aways specifically), you can choose to bait them and then punish by laser camping. Not every MU or situation has to be a perfect approach: you can gain advantages by forcing approaches or looking for positional advantages. They jump high for an approach, you navigate under a platform. They patiently space or DD at a distance, you laser. Etc

Best option specifically for dealing with rolls in general is to bait them by waiting, or by mixing up your option up close as you approach. Assuming something like you approach their shield with Nair into Shine, and then try to Nair again. They roll out after the Shine, and you whiff. Instead of choosing that extra Nair so much, cancel the shine into wavedash towards them. If they rolled away, you can probably dash after this and punish them. If they did not roll away, you moved behind their shield hopefully at this point.

Flexible choices like that can keep up the pressure, without forgoing the ability to punish more defensive options. Chances are, if you're having trouble with rolls, it's due to repeating an approach or offensive pressure "1-2 combo punch" too much, that they can roll out of. Rolling gets a lot of flak, but it can require the opponent to forgo more intense pressure or direct approaching in favor of that flexible gameplan that can take into consideration the distance and speed of rolls. If you don't at least slightly respect that, you may find them rolling out in key areas and feeling frustrated.

 

[Ayane]

Anybody know what to do against dash attack spamming kirbys? Sometimes I can dair him out if spaced right but it seems like blocking it does nothing for me.

 

[DMG]

You're supposed to bait moves like that and dash back. Blocking is not a great option, but you can block it near the very start of the move and try to WD OOS + Dash towards them for a punish.

The more they spam it, the more likely they have a pattern or timing for it. Stepping back and waiting for it should give you clean windows to punish: it's what I do with Falcon before stomping them.

Also I haven't tested it, but I would venture that you could trade or beat out the attack with some of your smashes if spaced and timed well. I don't use Spacies vs Kirby very often, so I have no idea if that totally 100% works but just a gut feeling.

 

[Ayane]

Alright so it's basically a guessing game. My opponent isn't stupid enough to keep doing it if I had something to beat him reliably. He would just run up grab if i tried to stay back and throw out a smash attack. I usually play Roy and his smash attacks lost pretty much 100% of the time a long with his aerials. I'll just keep guessing with neutral SH dair i suppose.

 

[DMG]

Must be a timing or spacing issue then. I can't imagine Roy not having an attack that would at the very least clank with Kirby DA

 

[Runicwings]

TBH I think the best MU Against Fox is DK. In Melee he wasn't much of a threat but IF the player was smart he could 0-death a fox player. In PM DK is faster, stronger and has priority like a boss. Lets break it down

- You a sheild Nairing Fox? Guess what dash attack or DKs nair beats that not to mention DKs nair also has kill potential. So now DK is a contender in the neutral game with his own approaches that can beat out Fox.
- You STILL have DK grab combos which are easier too so 0-death grabs are more possible. And baiting an approach to a grab is always very viable just ask marth. This wouldn't be so Bad if Fox didn't have his grab staple but he doesn't, Uthrow to Uair doesn't work on DK. So now DK can play offensively against fox OR defensively just as easily.
- DKs kill potential is absurd since at above 100 percent a Nair can kill fox if not DIed Properly. And at 100 DK has a guaranteed fthrow to Fair kill combo. Where as I said before Fox's Uair doesn't work so you have to rely on Hard read upsmashes or Shine into upsmash which can be easy to see from far.
-Off ledge is about the only place Fox has some sort of power. He can easily punish the DK with Backairs until he dies OR shinespike him. But I will add that DK has plenty of tools to **** through Firefoxes AND a smart DK who knows the Fox MU (which he will) will control the middle ground and not fish on the edges asking to get gimped.

These are just a few of my observations. If anyone has other input on how to Battle this then im all ears. Fox Vs DK is heavily underated Id say if the DK knows the Fox MU (Which every DK should since Foxes are plentiful) then the match is 70-30 DKs favor. Overall DK has too many guaranteed punishes on Fox while fox would have to play a heavy hit and run game not being able to capitalize on confirms like he can on other characters.

 

[DMG]

You could try to argue for an even MU, but saying this is 70-30 in DK's favor tells me you either don't understand MU spreads very well, or overrate DK by an exorbitant amount.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I think Fox' worst MU is Mewtwo

 

[Runicwings]

You could try to argue for an even MU, but saying this is 70-30 in DK's favor tells me you either don't understand MU spreads very well, or overrate DK by an exorbitant amount.

I am more than willing and want to admit that i am overrating DKs MU. But only If someone can point out Foxs tools and strengths against DK and convince me.

 

[DiZZ]

dk v fox is a 45 55 you have a lot to combo fox but fox can waveshine you to oblivion

 

[DMG]

Fox can play Neutral with DK. It's scary because of how heavy he punishes, but you're still a fast char with laser and decent approaching. From a stage perspective, Fox tends to benefit from the larger stages/more diverse stage list introduced in PM. With DK buffs, you could argue even I think. Most DK mains would place it at even or small disadvantage DK, not strong DK's favor.

 

[dRevan64]

fox doesn't lose to dk unless someone broke his gun and his bair while I wasn't watching

uthrowing dk still puts him in the air where he does not have nearly as many options—you know what, never mind. Fox still has backair. Just wait for dk to hit a button coming down, if he commits to something patient fox will win.

 

[Juker]

Fox's worst MU's in my current opinion, are: Mewtwo, Kirby, and Ike. I hear Pit isn't a very good one for Fox either, but I'm not entirely convinced yet that it's anything worse than even. I've heard the term "spacie killer" thrown around for Pit, which I'm wondering if that's fair. We'll see over time.
I feel like Fox's worst matchups tend to be the characters that can take advantage of him when he's off stage - very well, and/or can control his neutral decently.
Kirby may just be me, but I find him to be somewhat of a nightmare as Fox. He kills Fox very early, and Fox doesn't come back on if the Kirby knows what he's doing.
Ike can basically kill Fox first time he gets him off the stage at any percent.
Mewtwo doesn't need much explaining.

 

[KingsGambit27]

Fox's worst MU's in my current opinion, are: Mewtwo, Kirby, and Ike...

I agree with Mewtwo and Ike specifically because they have disjointed hitboxes that either hit fox at horrible angles offstage, or are just plain powerful (Ike Fair). Not familiar with the kirby matchup, but I could see why that may also be difficult. These matchups seem to come down to "don't get offstage" or else your stock is gone.

Advantages would be that Fox controls the neutral game for these MUs, though I personally find Ike hard to deal with even in neutral.

 

[imrai]

Am I looking at the matchup correctly, or is a campy Squirtle a nightmare for Fox? I have so much trouble getting in. It seems like my only safe approaching option is dash dance grab when he isn't bubble spamming, and if he is I don't really have any approach options (since vertical approaches are unsafe to his UpB/USmash). Given, you can punish the bubbles occasionally with dash dance grabs, but if you try to use literally anything else and he hasn't eaten a hundred lasers (which he can quite easily avoid) you are going to eat a crouch cancel->USmash. Any insight anyone can give me that might be helpful?

Also, which of these secondaries would best compliment a Fox:
-Lucas
-Roy
-Marth
-Pit
-Sonic

I'm thinking one of the swordsmen or Pit. Probably going to end up going with Marth, because I've played him for some time in Melee, but I really like Roy, and Pit has really good recovery and neutral game, so I kind of want to hear some second opinions. I don't really know much about the metagame. Also, is Lucas' only bad matchup space animals? Been told this by several local players (which I am inclined not to believe, as most of the P:M players in the area are not melee players so less vs. Fox experience; one of the people who told me is a pretty strong Fox player, though in P:M and Melee). Is this true?

 

[Rhus]

Hey guys,

I missed the last PM tourney that some people put on around here because of work but was told that a guy there did incredible with Link and placed first (it was a small tourney, kind of casual) but I will likely make the next one.

So to prepare, do you guys have any tips against Link? I know he can cheese combo us with Dash attacks and Usmashes really hard but we approach and disengage better. Any really important notes I should be aware of?

 

[imrai]

Hey guys,

I missed the last PM tourney that some people put on around here because of work but was told that a guy there did incredible with Link and placed first (it was a small tourney, kind of casual) but I will likely make the next one.

So to prepare, do you guys have any tips against Link? I know he can cheese combo us with Dash attacks and Usmashes really hard but we approach and disengage better. Any really important notes I should be aware of?

Don't try to approach him unless he already has a hitbox out, don't forget what your reflector was originally used for, and don't be afraid to out-camp him by playing smart and evasive and pelting him with constant lasers

 

[steelguttey]

hey guys! at the Olimar matchup thread we are talking about the olimar vs fox matchup! come talk about it with us!

 

[Gunslinger]

Anyone have any thoughts on the Wolf matchup? I'm thinking of picking him up as a secondary to fight Fox/Falco. Although it's certainly doable with my Link, I don't enjoy being waveshined or pillared to death because I miss a projectile. I was thinking of using Ike but he'd have the same problem as Link, he can't deal with the close quarters pressure that spacies dish out. I feel Wolf has better defensive options against Fox's shield pressure (i.e. shine OOS). Plus the dair waveshine combos with Wolf are sick looking on Fox.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I feel this matchup is about even. Fox maybe has a slight neutral game advantage because his nair really helps him in general (both in attack as in defense). Wolf has some advantages in the punish game and their KO moves are about even in that matchup (Wolf's fallspeed helps him so much against up-smashes).

 

[steelguttey]

Spoiler: Fox

Good Stages: doesnt matter just pick what youre good at this matchup sucks anyway lol

Percent at which flowered purple usmash can kill at: 84%

Matchup Ratio: 7.5-2.5

Tips:

Fox? Pick a different character cuz this matchup is awful.

Fox is faster and hits Olimar pretty hard. Shine removes Pikmin safely (something I failed to mention vs Falco), and his laser camping ability let's him do constant damage while running circles around Olimar.

Big stages are a no go because Fox can run around, small stages are bad because of how much faster Fox can kill Olimar and medium stages arent advantageous in any way either.

This matchup really is just terrible.

I also feel that this matchup is unwinnable, despite that Olimar can 0-death him from a grab or up smash.

Lasers knock back pikmin side-B toss and we all know Fox shoots them very fast. Fox can and will outcamp us. Olimar is rather floaty whereas Fox has good combos on floatys and up-smash/up-air. He's too fast and very difficult to grab. Lastly, shinespike is terrifying for Olimar. I'll write on how to actually win this matchup later though

Saw this post in the Fox boards, I'll contribute, but what I have to say might be rubbish because I'm fairly inexperienced.

I must suck at this matchup then, because I play a good Olimar regularly and have reasonable trouble (but I usually win, minus bad matches of tech errors) in the match.

Olimar wombos us pretty hard and like 1 grab is instant death pretty much. Fox is hard to grab though.

We outcamp you because our lasers stop your Pikmin and we have no lag and move much faster than you. We also have a reflector for your pikmin, so we force you to approach. Olimar's options for approaching seem limited here too.

Approaching, perfect spaced Fairs outrange our OoS Usmash as well as of course our grabs. Your far superior range and ridiculous tilt combos hurt us once we get hit, and we pretty much die everytime if you get a grab. I also think basically every move you have beats our options in the air, except maybe our Bair.

Olimar is kind of clunky for Fox to combo. I find that Oli's aerial pluck can help him escape Uthrow>Uair at mid-high percents and the shine knocks him down, so we can't combo out of it. We do approach and pressure you far better than you do us, with our shine shield pressure and extremely fast Nair and dash speed. The shine also helps reset into neutral where we force you into approaching.

Off stage we die instantly, a single one of any of your aerials save Uair (and whites) will kill us as low as like 50% I'm pretty sure. But I find it really bloody hard to shine spike Olimar, might just be me though.

I don't really see this match being worse than 65:35 Fox's favour. I don't contribute much in matchup discussion though, so I don't think my opinion holds a whole lot of value here.

I concur with everyone else in the statement that this match-up is absolutely horrible for Olimar. Olimar relies on his mid screen/camping game in order to force a mistake onto the opponent and create an opening. In exchange for his strong camping game he has a pretty mediocre approach without a purple due to his fairly poor mobility and relatively unsafe approach options.

However Fox, a character with a much much stronger approach and pressure game can outcamp this character due to lasers stopping Pikmin. It's honestly kind of stupid. This forces you to try to approach but as aforementioned Olimar's approach isn't very good. Fox's neutral game is so much stronger than Olimar's he really struggles to get much going. Then there's also the fact that Fox can combo Olimar pretty well and can seal easy gimps with a shine spike if he forces him off stage.

If you can however successfully space a grab or an attack that allows you to lead into a grab you can 0 to death him with relative ease. Fox is also easy to gimp, particularly if you have reds as they beat his Up B completely. The issue is of course getting the grab in this first place.

I'd probably rank this as one of Olimar's worst match-ups if not his absolute worst. Definitely worth opting for a different character if you have one. Though I don't think it's unwinnable, it's a very difficult battle to win.

I honestly don't know. Olimar can seal his fate in one combo, however landing a good hit on Fox can be nearly impossible unless Fox messes up. Assuming you are fighting an amazing Fox who won't mess up, I think it is 7-3 Fox favor. Never been big on matchup numbers though I just prefer writing how to do the matchup.

Btw, in my experience the best way to get in as Olimar in this matchup is to read his jump and run under up-smash. This will likely combo into one or two more up-smashes, then f-air him and edgeguard. When he is at low percent, you want to grab him with a blue pikmin (blue up throw sends him high enough to start a combo at even 0%), or chaingrab with up-throw or downthrow into a blue pikmin. The easiest and most reliable thing to hit him with to start a 0-death are a blue up-throw, or a non-white up smash.

heres what we got for the olimar matchup friends

 

[xLithiumx]

So.... We can actually discuss MUs now. Who should we start with?

Edit: Maybe a character that many people consider broken or something would be the best? Idk

 

[Denjinpachi]

Fox vs Mewtwo? someone help?

You're gonna have to treat him a little bit like you would any other floaty. If you're familiar with Puff/Luigi you have to avoid combating them in the air if they have their backs to you. Of course recklessly jumping on them when they are facing you is dangerous too, but you really wanna attempt to hold a strong control of the stage in the neutral. You have to get comfortable with the laser game, spacing back air, and basic up-throw follow ups. Up-throw Up air is good, but not always guaranteed due to DI and early Percent. if you drill shine, be prepared to follow up with a waveshine into grab, or upsmash. Don't challenge his crouch cancel, and when he recovers, hold the ledge if he used his float/double jump. Its easier to punish him returning to the stage than letting him comeback off the ledge because of teleport stalling/recovery mix up. Keep in mind, Shine is too easy to live from now, so no point in trying to go for shine off stage against him. up-smash still kills around 85-90 I think on stadium, or battlefield. I may be mistaken.

So.... We can actually discuss MUs now. Who should we start with?

Edit: Maybe a character that many people consider broken or something would be the best? Idk

If I had to make a suggestion, we should discuss DK if not already covered. Talking about characters that can 0-to-death Fox would be really beneficial. So, we have a lot to discuss lol.

 

[xLithiumx]

With DK, I'd probably drillshine a lot, but I'd also DD so that it makes it harder for my opponent to react. Lasers are a good option too since DK has no projectiles. Aerial strings work good, but shine spiking to me is kinda iffy against DK. Tbh as long as your careful and punish good, DK can't really do anything. Plus, as far as I know, DK can only 0 to death if he grabs you.

Reasons why he loses the MU even though he can 0 to death Fox off a grab:

1. Lasers rack up damage
2. DK player will have to approach you at some point from the lasers (Which means you're in control and you can punish his laggy moves)
3. If you play aggressive(like I do) he'll shield a lot which means he'll always be under pressure and he'll make a bad roll or something
4. DK is slower than Fox(I think) so he can't really run.
5. Being under pressure makes people nervous so your opponent will eventually throw something stupid and laggy out.
6. DK is big and slow which means Fox pretty much always has control over what DK can do. He plays defensive - lasers. He plays aggressive - punish(and since DK's a big character you can hit him with everything pretty easily.)

That's the MU thru my eyes at least.

 

[Denjinpachi]

With DK, I'd probably drillshine a lot, but I'd also DD so that it makes it harder for my opponent to react. Lasers are a good option too since DK has no projectiles. Aerial strings work good, but shine spiking to me is kinda iffy against DK. Tbh as long as your careful and punish good, DK can't really do anything. Plus, as far as I know, DK can only 0 to death if he grabs you.

Reasons why he loses the MU even though he can 0 to death Fox off a grab:

1. Lasers rack up damage
2. DK player will have to approach you at some point from the lasers (Which means you're in control and you can punish his laggy moves)
3. If you play aggressive(like I do) he'll shield a lot which means he'll always be under pressure and he'll make a bad roll or something
4. DK is slower than Fox(I think) so he can't really run.
5. Being under pressure makes people nervous so your opponent will eventually throw something stupid and laggy out.
6. DK is big and slow which means Fox pretty much always has control over what DK can do. He plays defensive - lasers. He plays aggressive - punish(and since DK's a big character you can hit him with everything pretty easily.)

That's the MU thru my eyes at least.

I can give some more insight on the MU vs. DK as Fox. I've gotten to watch and play with SiS|ThunderzReign and I've even talked about ways to deal with the MU. Unfortunately the sets he played at Norcal Regionals 2015 weren't saved, so I cant give you a direct reference for this MU, but everything you say is mostly correct. DK, as I was informed, is apparently the 10th fasted character. He runs as fast as sheik, he benefits from CC grab/jab/d-tilt as well. A lot of what you will be afraid of, initially, is the grab game, which does indeed lead to 0-to-deaths. An important thing to not overlook is DK's tech chasing capability. It's a lot more powerful than you'd think. He can cover the options with dash dancing, or even a down-b to punish a roll, or timed with a wake up.

Basically, yes if you care capable of pressuring him if you are consistent on offensive pressure. However, even if you are capable with drilling, you can get grab armored which will lead to death. A lot of this MU is very laser based compared to the Melee counter part. You can't run a one man train on DK like you could in melee. The shine game has been adjusted notably, but you can still waveshine him I think. I believe his traction doesn't knock him down after shine, I don't recall so please don't quote me on that. but either way, if and when you are pressuring DK, you either need to confirm the shine-into-wave-shine, or your need to get competent with shine grabbing. All and every aspect of your offense needs to result in either a knock down, a grab combo, or an edge guard. Theres almost no real room for error when it comes to fighting DK. His Cargo-Up throw is comparable to Fox's U-throw U-air, but he has even more kill options off it than fox does. if not kill, then definitely follow up options are apparent. If you haven't heard of ThunderzReign, watch a set of him vs. really anyone and you'll understand why he's an example of why you need constancy vs. DK.

So, basically I just wanted to express how much more defensive play will be apparent vs. DK, and how much your punish game needs to be focused on. But, of course, if you already outplay your opponent, just proceed to do Fox things, and be about your day.

 

[xLithiumx]

Even if he does fall you can still waveshine him... if he doesn't tech... and if you're fast enough.

 

[Denjinpachi]

Even if he does fall you can still waveshine him... if he doesn't tech... and if you're fast enough.

That is true, but realistically, people will be mashing either a tech, or attempting to roll away from the shine pressure. I've noticed that a lot more recently. It seems a little to risky to go in with the assumption the tech will be missed. But, that's just me.

 

[Landitty]

I feel this matchup is about even. Fox maybe has a slight neutral game advantage because his nair really helps him in general (both in attack as in defense). Wolf has some advantages in the punish game and their KO moves are about even in that matchup (Wolf's fallspeed helps him so much against up-smashes).

Agreed, wolf's punish game is scary on Fox. You gotta be cautious with bad approaches or tech flubs.

 

[Denjinpachi]

I have a hard time in general dealing with wolf's wave landed laser approaches.

 

[Landitty]

It's funny that this thread would at first recieve any sarcasm as it did haha. Later it started getting productive so it's all good. But this really is an important topic! At this point, most people use Fox & Falco as there training bags and good PM players (at least in my experience) seem to be more expert at destroying the space animals then any other characters. They have plenty of effective offensive, defensive and zero-to-death options learned on us. Now we have to figure out the same for them.
I'll throw in my two cents on 3 general things I've noticed recently.
First let me say, a lot of this is going to sound like common sense if your coming from Melee. But a lot of old ideas have new significance when applied to the PM environment where Fox has been nerfed a bit and characters have more options to combat him.
So anyways:
-Drill/shine shouldn't be used too often on the big guys and a few medium guys- Donky Kong, Bowser, DDD, Charizard, & Mewtwo IMO. They seem to counter that option good in the obvious ways, crouch canceling etc.
-Other character's dash attacks in PM are GOOD, with high priority and speed. And they like to use them. It's so easy to be dash dancing while trying to land lasers and get suprised by a simple sudden dash attack when you thought you were spacing good and fine lol...
It's something to keep in mind in all situations.
-Getting grabbed is particularly dangerous for Fox in PM. You have to be even more careful of this then in Melee.

 

[Landitty]

I personally have been struggling really bad against good Charizard & Snake players. I just can't seem to figure out a good game plan for fighting them, or what weaknesses I could exploit.
Also, I do a little better against them with Falco...is Falco just a better matchup against them and I should just work on fighting them with him? Or is Fox just fine or better? Any tips would be great.