G&W Competitive Discussion (Casual Gametype discussion welcome)

[Smaggles]

Does anyone else find that number 1 judgements are EXTREMELY common on the normal judgement? Either every other or every 1 in 3 judgements I do end up being a 1. I am using the normal judgement, not the 1 or 9 judgement.

 

[shapular]

I don't know if anybody's mentioned this, but you can use dtilt when your opponent is recovering to the ledge to pop them into the air and put them in freefall. I did it against a Bowser earlier today. He popped up high into the air behind me for a free punish. I'm not sure if it works against everybody or what exactly the timing is. I'll try to test it out some more tomorrow.

 

[_hunt]

Oh god... I'm so inconsistent with GDubs in this game. I can't seem to land his aerials reliably. It's pretty clear at this point, for me at least, that his approach is to use aerials (which he still excels at), the dash attack and the chair (which has surprising knockback in this game!) I just can't KO anybody before 150% without a charge smash!

Has anybody found a reliable way to KO people that doesn't require me to attempt an offstage fair (with a high whiff chance)?

 

[FrameImperfect]

I've found that Up B can be a reliable way to edgeguard. Melee Up B custom move is hilarious since it reaches so high and moves quick. Knockback seems improved overall too.

 

[PentaSalia]

After playing for two days i notice the nerfs now lol. It's frustrating.
I don't mind the power nerf on smashes but the bair nerf is what's the most depressing. We no longer have a way to approach or shield pressure the opponent AT ALL. Yes back air was predictable as **** in brawl but at least we had the option. We have nothing now.
Dash attack is still unsafe on block and it's prime purpose is mostly for quick punishes or roll habits. Yes it's good but not nearly enough to make up for his nerfs. His bair is only good damage now.

If you thought being a stock behind with gw in brawl was bad, smash4 is near hopeless if you're playing against a good player. I don't think he's palutena bad but he's definitely not a braindead character you can just pick up and be decent with anymore(in singles anyway). As for his pros, GW can still juggle okay, and his fair is still great offstage. Uair still allows him to be a threat if you're above him. He can still rack up the damage but just has no reliable way to approach or land kills now.

 

[Smaggles]

Oh god... I'm so inconsistent with GDubs in this game. I can't seem to land his aerials reliably. It's pretty clear at this point, for me at least, that his approach is to use aerials (which he still excels at), the dash attack and the chair (which has surprising knockback in this game!) I just can't KO anybody before 150% without a charge smash!

Has anybody found a reliable way to KO people that doesn't require me to attempt an offstage fair (with a high whiff chance)?

Off stage fairs are your best bet, it's something you will have to get good at. On the plus side, g&w has godly recovery, so even if you do miss it's not so bad. Especially if you can hit your opponent with your up b on the way back to give yourself some breathing room, and as Frame Imperfect just mentioned, you can follow that up b up with a real ledge guard option like a bair or another fair if you're close enough to the stage to make it back without your parachute. Don't use smash attacks as a mind game so that your opponent won't think about them anymore, then when they get to kill percentages try to hit them with up smashes/fsmash sweet spots while they're landing on stage.
I've also found that you can down air people near the ledge for a good spike. I've gotten a couple kills in for glory by jumping at them and down airing and using up b immediately to recover.

After playing for two days i notice the nerfs now lol. It's frustrating.
I don't mind the power nerf on smashes but the bair nerf is what's the most depressing. We no longer have a way to approach or shield pressure the opponent AT ALL. Yes back air was predictable as **** in brawl but at least we had the option. We have nothing now.

I find my entire g&w in this game revolves around short hop bairs. If I'm not close to my opponent I just constantly short hop bair to show them the turtle and zone them. If they have a projectile I'll try to stay in the air just above ground level, using double jump if I have to. If they have a charged projectile (shiek, samus, etc) this can make them wary of using their projectile because they're more unsure if it will hit or not and they will tend to save it from what I've noticed, allowing me to get in closer. Mixing this up with Chef has been a good enough approach for me, but I am not playing top level players.

 

[PentaSalia]

I find my entire g&w in this game revolves around short hop bairs. If I'm not close to my opponent I just constantly short hop bair to show them the turtle and zone them. If they have a projectile I'll try to stay in the air just above ground level, using double jump if I have to. If they have a charged projectile (shiek, samus, etc) this can make them wary of using their projectile because they're more unsure if it will hit or not and they will tend to save it from what I've noticed, allowing me to get in closer. Mixing this up with Chef has been a good enough approach for me, but I am not playing top level players.

I sort of question who you were playing against, sorry lol. Sheik should not be afraid of using her needles when she's far away. It's a fast projectile that's hard to punish, especially against someone slower than her like gw. If it's any move she should be cautious of, it would be dash attack.
Short hop bair has lag on landing and the last hit it had in brawl is no longer there so it's not even safe to throw out. With almost every character having a decent to quick dash attack now, it is very punishable if whiffed. Same goes for chef.

 

[SFA Smiley]

His new playstyle revolves around using his amazing foxtrot and mixing up dash attacks, fsmash/dsmash, and grabs.

I play him ground based in this game, aerials don't do it for me anymore

I still haven't hypnotized myself into using landing fair on shields because i'm still trying to keep it fresh but it may actually be safer in this game, i really haven't tested it yet

Honestly even with all the new ways to play him, he still just sucks.

Now that people started vectoring, dair at 150+ doesn't even do it anymore, and gimping is still too difficult in this game to effectively do to pretty much anyone

I also need to try keeping dash attack fresh still but it's his best damage racking option because it's so reliable, i don't think i can really get them into ko % without dash attack

@ PentaSalia Chef is def better though, I actually get a lot off chef in this game, but I don't know why. Not sure if it's faster or what

 

[A2ZOMG]

His new playstyle revolves around using his amazing foxtrot and mixing up dash attacks, fsmash/dsmash, and grabs.

I play him ground based in this game, aerials don't do it for me anymore

I still haven't hypnotized myself into using landing fair on shields because i'm still trying to keep it fresh but it may actually be safer in this game, i really haven't tested it yet

Honestly even with all the new ways to play him, he still just sucks.

Now that people started vectoring, dair at 150+ doesn't even do it anymore, and gimping is still too difficult in this game to effectively do to pretty much anyone

I also need to try keeping dash attack fresh still but it's his best damage racking option because it's so reliable, i don't think i can really get them into ko % without dash attack

@ PentaSalia Chef is def better though, I actually get a lot off chef in this game, but I don't know why. Not sure if it's faster or what

Chef definitely looks slightly less laggy last time I checked. And I personally think using F-air to approach somewhat like Melee G&W is the way to go.

I think G&W's air to air game is honestly a little better because his aerials look like they have less total duration, meaning you can go from one move to another a little bit faster to cover more options on the fly.

 

[raymundoTheGod]

Poor G&W. I always disliked when characters just come out bad without the meta even making him bad. But I will spend the day trying to see if there is a way around it.

 

[Kofu]

I found a use for DTilt's windbox. It may have been alluded to in this post but it wasn't specific. If a Little Mac decides to approach you with Jolt Haymaker, throw out a DTilt. The windbox will propel him up and over you. If you're close enough to the ledge, Mac will go flying off of it and die. Hypothetically you could do this with any other aerial that moves a fighter off the ground when used, but none come to mind off the top of my head. It would be workable for people trying to recover horizontally on stage, though, enabling you to punish them.

 

[Mr G W]

Neutral Air:
Damage: 4x3

I know we were all looking forward to this move being broken with hitstun added and air dodges nerfed and I would say it doesn't disappoint too badly. It hits one less time, which is a noticeable nerf, but this is move is back with a huge buff from system mechanics.

It still hits 4 times, with the first hit dealing 5% damage.

It might be harder to pull it off, but the 4 hits are still there.

 

[Bonds]

I actually like gnw a lot in smash 4. The dual threat between neutral air and upsmash when landing is really nasty considering all the landing lag on airdodge now, and upsmash feels slightly stronger on kb despite doing less damage. Customs definitely help a lot, since dthrow into heavy parachute into fair is a strong 31% combo where not a lot of those exist. Ftilt feels like the new dtilt for his ground game, as it seems like it has less start up and end lag. He doesn't have much trouble punishing rolls due to the improvements on dash attack which is huge considering how much more powerful they are now, and it's easier to trap into upsmash than in brawl in a game where being able to reliably land a kill feels more important. I don't think he should be written off just yet.

 

[Alphicans]

Our character is ass in singles, and banned in doubles.

Life sucks for us

 

[Neb]

He'll find his way in high tier somewhere along the lifespan of this game. May not stay, but from the little I see, he's in great shape this time around.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

My contribution to G&W Boards:

Custom Moves:

B Move Edge Momentum Shifts

Air Dodge Delux Cancelling

 

[DeLux]

You don't even know the salt I have that it's called DeLux cancelling in a video LOL

 

[Kofu]

You don't even know the salt I have that it's called DeLux cancelling in a video LOL

DeLux with that name searching.

In all actuality though it's really good that G&W can cancel his airdodge landing lag with BAir

 

[MachoCheeze]

So I was playing a Rosalina earlier and I was able to trap Luma in the pan hits of chef until he died.

What was neat was that Luma wouldn't take the bacon, it kept flying as Luma was trapped in the frying pan so Rosalina had a harder time punishing me.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

You don't even know the salt I have that it's called DeLux cancelling in a video LOL

You discovered this, I think It is fair enought to use your name on this AT

 

[DeLux]

You discovered this, I think It is fair enought to use your name on this AT

I didn't discover it technically. Long story short, I noticed the peculiarity for the IASA on Air Dodge. I googled and youtube searched and didn't see anything. I checked about a months worth of comp threads and didn't see anything. So I made a thread and video. Then, as per standard operating procedure, I learned that Kprime discovered it before I did (which that guy knows something about the universe we don't I swear) as the first documented incidence of the mechanic.

The plot thickens because I had a running joke in the IC boards during the Brawl life time where I discovered dozens of character specific ATs, and would only name them based off their inputs, using acronyms like say DACUS (using that as an example, I didn't name them). Some of the inputs were absurd, so the acronyms became unbearable. So as a running joke, rather than using the absurd acronyms, we started naming things after ourselves (which I objected to in the context that I figured I had enough discoveries that nobody would know the difference between the Lux Desync1 and say, the Lux Desync 5). So as the running inside joke, whenever I document a phenomenon that takes more than one sentence to explain, I just catalog it as a "Lux (insert tactic here)" as satire to the arrogant nature of naming things after ones self (or worse naming something absolutely nonsensical [see the Pikachu Brawl boards]) because it doesn't transfer any useful information. This was clearly meant to be satire because EVERYONE tries to do this with every discovery, even if they discovered it or not. Kprime recognized the joke and made a post alluding to this sociological phenomenon in the Smash Community in the thread I made.

So I clearly labeled it as satire, and I more or less made the video just to show a couple Diddy's a visual of the utility of the tactic via Diddy's Dair. Then someone else made a video of it that garnered quite a bit of attention. And then despite labeling about 3 times that the name was satire and there was another discoverer, I somehow got credited for discovering it. But then some people were salty that I would dare name something after myself.

TLDR - The internet is a wondrous and amazing place.

 

[Kofu]

I'm not sure of it's of any particular help, but our DTilt seems to hit several times in a very short span. I don't think anyone will every get hit by all of them, but multiple times when it's hit a shield the sound effect and shield clash animation indicates there's more than one hit. This could also be a result if the windbox, but I doubt it.

I bring this up mainly because the hitbox appears to be active longer than in Brawl, even if it's barely longer. Makes it a little better at stuffing aerial approaches, I suppose, though I'd rather use FTilt in most cases.

 

[Rakurai]

The windbox on the down tilt is indeed multi-hitting and actually causes 1% damage per hit. Most easily noticed if you use it on an AI that's set to jump in training mode as they're descending.

 

[Dexident]

I too have noticed some of the nerfs that our character has undergone. In my opinion one of the biggest nerfs is the elimination of the lingering hitbox on the forward smash. For really good opponents/people who are unfamiliar with GW it wasn't tremendously effective. But it sure had its place at punishing rolls or dodges...

The only buff I can seem to notice in this game is that because of the nerfs to air-dodging - chef-locking people seems much easier.

Also am I the only one who feels that our f-tilt got a minor buff?

It seems that it comes out faster or something. At any rate I like the animation a lot.

 

[SFA Smiley]

This thread is now the competitive discussion thread so if you have things that are less social in nature and more related to improved performance of the character this is where that stuff goes. I'm pretty lax so you don't have to worry too much about what goes where just use common sense so that the information organized for readers who are looking for certain information =)

 

[A2ZOMG]

I actually wonder if anyone has played G&W vs Rosalina. I personally don't know what to do in that matchup, especially since G&W lacks good throws against her while she has Luma. I feel like it's too easy for her to shield camp against G&W because of that.

 

[SFA Smiley]

I used to main her.

It's pretty bad for GW lol

He has no way to approach safely. I'd like to try it again though, but I need a Rosalina to play against first. Maybe I'll hit up Wifi more in the upcoming months (Even though I haaate it)

 

[A2ZOMG]

Okay, I appreciate hearing that. Good to know I'm not the only one that feels that matchup is very unfavorable for G&W. Though I believe with Short Order Chef and Heavy Trampoline, we have a better chance in that matchup.

 

[TheMiSP]

I like Heavy Trampoline because it nastily consumes a significant portion of a full shield when the sweetspot connects. Is this kinda like free shield pressure? I got away with spamming it, but my friends ranted a bit about it afterwards. Plus, the gravity on gliding is reduced.

On Rosa, she can seriously get away with dash attacking and dsmashing all day, accompanied by teleporting rolls. Kinda wish she loses her teleporting when Luma's dead, but oh well. None of my friends main her.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I like Heavy Trampoline because it nastily consumes a significant portion of a full shield when the sweetspot connects. Is this kinda like free shield pressure? I got away with spamming it, but my friends ranted a bit about it afterwards. Plus, the gravity on gliding is reduced.

On Rosa, she can seriously get away with dash attacking and dsmashing all day, accompanied by teleporting rolls. Kinda wish she loses her teleporting when Luma's dead, but oh well. None of my friends main her.

I don't really believe the teleporting affects punishing her rolls. I cover rolls by just committing to a direction and attacking. Much easier than trying to do it with pure reactions, and usually safe if you miss because assuming they didn't roll that direction, you should likely be spaced out of range.

My main issue vs Rosalina is just that we have no way to really stop her from shield camping with Luma because we don't have good throws or safe aerial approaches. With Short Order Chef we have a better chance of harassing Luma, and Heavy Trampoline gives us more consistent punishes for juggling her past her disjointed D-air.

 

[meleebrawler]

If you really have to assault a very passive Rosalina, the best thing to do
is just focus focus out-spacing Luma and Luma only. Not the most optimal
thing to do, but it's something.

 

[FrameImperfect]

I used to main her.

It's pretty bad for GW lol

He has no way to approach safely. I'd like to try it again though, but I need a Rosalina to play against first. Maybe I'll hit up Wifi more in the upcoming months (Even though I haaate it)

You could play against me. I know how to use most of the characters.

 

[SPoitter]

why is his dtilt garbage unless used for forcing the opponent to do something? it's really annoying when i have that sudden melee part of me kick in and i do a dtilt, it's like what the fluck

 

[meleebrawler]

why is his dtilt garbage unless used for forcing the opponent to do something? it's really annoying when i have that sudden melee part of me kick in and i do a dtilt, it's like what the fluck

Because Ftilt and Jab are useful now?

 

[SPoitter]

Because Ftilt and Jab are useful now?

Ftilt & Jab were always useful.

 

[Kofu]

Ftilt & Jab were always useful.

Not really. They may have had some situational uses in Brawl (don't remember much about Melee tbh) but DTilt was almost as fast as jab, had a bigger hitbox, and was safer. FSmash, while slower than FTilt, had a lingering hitbox that did its job better. The tablea have kind of turned now and FSmash/DTilt are mediocre, but they're not completely useless.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I would never use Fsmash for anything except punishing blocked ledge attacks personally. Move is just irrationally terrible right now. Dtilt at least still sorta works in footsies.

Also, Judgment imo is actually a decent attack. Never has been seriously terrible, it has its place as a punish that you can use in the air and ground. Getting a 1 in this game actually isn't quite as awful in this game due to Rage. Getting a 9 is obviously game changing but the move actually overall does good damage. I would use this attack competitively.

Also, G&W has the best Dair for spiking people off the ledge imo. Do this either when they regrab the ledge or during the 1 frame vulnerable window when sweetspotting the ledge.

 

[SFA Smiley]

Fsmash is so bad in this game.

Dtilt is bad too, i get away with it sometimes but know I shouldnt because that move is REALLY bad. The windbox gives it utility though at least but it's very risky even so. Also I think getting 1s are even worse in this game because of rage. Even with rage GW kinda gets better at KOing but he doesnt survive as long in this game because of no bucket braking so that extra damage really hurts him more than it helps. I still use Side-B because swag n' such but that move was nerfed IMO. Rage 9 is hype though and actually does KO at 0% but it doesnt even matter because all i ever get are 5 1s in a row and then a few 3s

 

[Kofu]

FSmash is still usable out of a run which can usually get us the optimal range. As a landing punish, I prefer DSmash or USmash though.

 

[Neb]

Out of a run, I still argue ftilt is better. Fsmash is unique in the fact that you can mix-up its release.