G&W Competitive Discussion (Casual Gametype discussion welcome)

[JohnnyB]

The opinion over at the villager board is that villager is the most like gdubs in this game (which is probably the reason i main villager in this game). They both have great aierals, edge guarding, pocket is similar to oil panic, and they can both kill *really* early. I think junior feels a little bit like g&w too bit not as much as villager.

I have been watching GimR's tourney videos lately on YouTube and he has rekindled my hope for g&w. Based on his matches it seems like you have to rely on hammer-9 and oil panic more than ever to get ahead. You can go toe to toe with a lot of mid tier and lower chars, but to really get ahead you need to get a OHKO. It's gimmicky and i hate that they designed him like this, but you can be such a stock thief with those early percent judgement hammer and oil panic follow ups.

I just hope g&w gets more viable with customs. His chef and hammer customs might be able to bring him up the tier list at least a little bit.

 

[meleebrawler]

The opinion over at the villager board is that villager is the most like gdubs in this game (which is probably the reason i main villager in this game). They both have great aierals, edge guarding, pocket is similar to oil panic, and they can both kill *really* early. I think junior feels a little bit like g&w too bit not as much as villager.

I have been watching GimR's tourney videos lately on YouTube and he has rekindled my hope for g&w. Based on his matches it seems like you have to rely on hammer-9 and oil panic more than ever to get ahead. You can go toe to toe with a lot of mid tier and lower chars, but to really get ahead you need to get a OHKO. It's gimmicky and i hate that they designed him like this, but you can be such a stock thief with those early percent judgement hammer and oil panic follow ups.

I just hope g&w gets more viable with customs. His chef and hammer customs might be able to bring him up the tier list at least a little bit.

Hey, don't forget the trampoline customs either.

 

[Coffee.dec]

Hey, don't forget the trampoline customs either.

Indeed. Heavy trampoline is so useful

 

[JohnnyB]

I don't have the upb customs for gdubs. How do you feel that they affect his recovery? Is heavy tramp worth potentially giving up g&w's amazing offstage game since you may not be able to make it back after going deep offstage?

 

[TheMiSP]

I don't have the upb customs for gdubs. How do you feel that they affect his recovery? Is heavy tramp worth potentially giving up g&w's amazing offstage game since you may not be able to make it back after going deep offstage?

Not so sure about Heavy Tramp, though you'd sacrifice distance, but keep the ongoing ascension hitbox. You also gain the beginning hitbox (kinda a kill move) and somehow float down slower.

But I love Trampoline Launch. You go crazy high and can basically make up for the parachute distance with aerial attack > second jump. It's now all about the beginning hitbox which is a crazy kill move, but you lose protection on ascension. And I also think the invincibility on starting the move is smaller, and it takes slightly longer to begin rising.

I'd stay with TL or regular.

 

[BBC7]

I don't have the upb customs for gdubs. How do you feel that they affect his recovery? Is heavy tramp worth potentially giving up g&w's amazing offstage game since you may not be able to make it back after going deep offstage?

I like Heavy Tramp because although it sacrifices damage, D-Throw into Up B into Fair(25%) becomes something incredibly legit since it does more damage then D-Throw to Nair(21%), is guaranteed and since you'll be closer to the ground, you can either jump after the opponent to continue dealing damage with aerials, or fastfall and prepare to punish landings.

EDIT: I meant range, not damage. It does more damage

 

[Shinobi1]

Do you guys think up air is a good kill move for GW? Ive gotten a few kills at around 115%. The reason I am asking this is because I think I have seen someone recently saying that it is a bad move in general.

Our character is *** in singles, and banned in doubles.

Life sucks for us

Why is GW banned in doubles?

 

[TrollheartBlue]

Do you guys think up air is a good kill move for GW? Ive gotten a few kills at around 115%. The reason I am asking this is because I think I have seen someone recently saying that it is a bad move in general.

Nair provides much better coverage and leaves Mr.G&W less vulnerable than Uair. The other problem is that Uair gets most of it's knockback from the second hit rather than the first.

Why is GW banned in doubles?

Ridiculous oil panic combos with Pikachu's Thunder. For example, this match last 17 seconds because of the combo.

 

[SFA Smiley]

Well. Was...kinda

Some regions banned the combo of Pika+GW but it was patched very early on. Things are fine now.

And GW is still a great doubles character (Which is why i prefer it to singles nowadays)

 

[Shinobi1]

Well. Was...kinda

Some regions banned the combo of Pika+GW but it was patched very early on. Things are fine now.

And GW is still a great doubles character (Which is why i prefer it to singles nowadays)

So did the patch make GW not able to grab pikas down b or does the oil not do as much damage?

 

[Trieste SP]

So did the patch make GW not able to grab pikas down b or does the oil not do as much damage?

They made sure you can't fill the bucket with only one thunder from pika. You gotta do it several times to fill it.

 

[Opana]

Found some really interesring things out:

-Soft Fair pops them up, I believe forcing a get up but uncertain

-Dthrow, as early as 0% for even Bowser, can lead into I believe a guaranteed airborne footstool.

-Right after an airborne footstool you can use Uair which actually pulls them up to you. This can actually lead into a read dependent aerial based on where they di. At around early mid percents a full hop from Dthrow led into a footstool nicely, which allowed me to carry them with Uair, followed by jumping into a Dair spike, essentially being a death string provided you time your recovery so you don't save them(Or use it to spike.). This was done in training, but with a good read could net you a stock I think.

-I think buffered short hop Dair is possibly guaranteed, and if sweetspotted and not teched has combo potential.

 

[BBC7]

Can anyone get the frame data off of a Dash cancelled into OoS Grab? It has really nice range, moreso than regular Dash Grab, Boost Grab, or Roll-Cancelled Grab. If it has good frame data, I'd be pretty happy.

 

[Neb]

@ Opana , many of your findings are laid out in this thread...

http://smashboards.com/threads/mr-frame-data-frame-data-information-ko.383626/

It should be stickied, but I digress... Using footstool>uair as a way of setting an offstage spike, however, is a new and interesting thought. Can you record this in action?

 

[Opana]

Just recorded off the phone, now if I can find a comp to upload I'll let you know. Keep in mind this was done with a humanless player 2, unsure when they can act but regardless I think we have their options covered if we read right. I'm gonna head to FG and try it out.

 

[GMan1255]

Just recorded off the phone, now if I can find a comp to upload I'll let you know. Keep in mind this was done with a humanless player 2, unsure when they can act but regardless I think we have their options covered if we read right. I'm gonna head to FG and try it out.

I would certainly enjoy to see this actually be a thing, but my initial thoughts about this is that they might be able to react. I haven't tried this and I'm really interested in seeing this video

 

[SFA Smiley]

@ Opana , many of your findings are laid out in this thread...

http://smashboards.com/threads/mr-frame-data-frame-data-information-ko.383626/

It should be stickied, but I digress... Using footstool>uair as a way of setting an offstage spike, however, is a new and interesting thought. Can you record this in action?

I gotchu

 

[Opana]

Likely can't get a video up anytime soon but some more info on it:

-Usmash can set up the airstool->uair

-They can't do anything but di for a second or two, meaning we can probably get a guaranteed aerial at least on some characters.

 

[GMan1255]

I played around with it a little bit, and we can basically get a free hit at best

 

[Opana]

Yeah the uair thing doesn't work on every either, but I'm still going to try and use it once I get dthrow to footstool down.

So I've been playing around with Chef, if you jump off and use it towards the stage the food can stun them setting up Fire stage spikes.

 

[Shaya]

Think of his up air as a pseudo neutral air.
If you hit someone just behind your head, most characters will be combo'd into the second hit.
Some floaty characters may often pop out.

It also has a lot of horizontal range in general, weaving in + falling or a mid-air jump from the sides will work out a lot.
If any of you play ZSS it's a similar thing she has to deal with comboing into her up-b, which requires both characters being parallel to it to work and that hitting on the rise of your jump will allow you the momentum to keep up as well.

tl;dr, aim behind your head/think horizontally with it, try to do it on the rise of your jumps to cover the first hit pushing them upwards slightly.

 

[Opana]

Honestly I've been using Uair to break out of juggles once I realized the windbox is below him too.

Also, here's what I believe is a death string:

Up Throw->Fire->Judge 9

After following di, I wait a very brief moment to get parachute momentum left/right so I can hit with Judge. Uthrow->Fire does 14% which should be enough to get a kill with 9.

 

[Johnny Heart Gold]

Dudes!!!! I used to be awesome with watch on melee and brawl but here I have a lot of problems, his attacks, his down smash is awful, the only thing I like ius the dash and the chair please help me dudes I cant believe I win with characters I never use on for glory but with watch a character I loved I suck the big one

 

[SeanS]

I have been watching GimR's tourney videos lately on YouTube and he has rekindled my hope for g&w. Based on his matches it seems like you have to rely on hammer-9 and oil panic more than ever to get ahead.

This is why GIMR is not a good rep for this character. HE IS NOT TEACHING YOU THE FUNDAMENTALS OF G&W PLAY. He is teaching you to be a troll going for reddit clips instead of someone who is trying their absolute best to optimize all the movements, mindgames, and attack priorities behind this character.

I don't have any personal dislike for GIMR, he's obviously better with this character than a lot of people are, and he's probably a cool person IRL etc., and I make no claims about being some kind of G&W avatar at all - I don't attend major tournaments regularly at this point in my life... but I do hate that you're contributing to the terrible perceptions of this character that he has caused by the virtue of him being one of the less than 10 people to actually give him a ****ing chance with all their heart.

You can go toe to toe with a lot of mid tier and lower chars, but to really get ahead you need to get a OHKO.

THIS IS AN EDGEGUARD AND PRESSURE BASED CHARACTER! Yes, he doesn't have brainless throw kills like Ness or ROB. What he does have is an incredible toolset for scaring the hell out of people the moment they aren't onstage. Don't believe me? This is a pretty small sample of what you could be doing RIGHT NOW:

http://gfycat.com/NiftyOrneryGoat

A bit on the extreme side? Yeah, but not as much as you probably think. Look at my face in that clip. I'm hardly even amused by what I pulled off because I get my kills offstage regularly, even if not in an incredibly impressive way like that.


I have fought people with team sponsorships who do not know or understand how to time a tech after getting stage spiked by turtle, and I don't think I've ever seen a human tech an Up B stage spike yet. I don't think a single offline Mario hasn't died from me threatening with fair / forwardly angled Up B vortex at least once and that's a pretty conservative estimate. Good players regularly sucker for me ftilting and jabbing out of every other move I execute while they're just getting up from the ledge, even if they're way better than me. GO THE **** IN! Stop hoping you get lucky out of some ridiculous fear of death and start usmashing every aerial rushdown and vortex panic airdodges above you into sweetspot dsmash.

Foxtrot chase in absolutely EVERY situation where you are below people. Please, if you want to give this character a chance, at least try to master G&W's foxtrot. The input timing is very simple and it amps his game up 200%, and I mean this literally.

 

[SeanS]

Do you guys think up air is a good kill move for GW? Ive gotten a few kills at around 115%. The reason I am asking this is because I think I have seen someone recently saying that it is a bad move in general.

On certain character percent combos - usually of the fastfaller sort - you can get a true combo dthrow > uair kill given no unusual DI. (Rage also plays into what percents you do this stuff at.)

Players who are not at the top level regularly fall into panic airdodge when you threaten with it out of dthrow anyway and you can get a guaranteed uair kill on characters who should not die to this if they do this.

It's a decent move, let's say. Oh, and you can use it to mess up people's timings in the air if they try to counteract your other options - this can net you that usmash or dsmash, or at least a grab / dash attack into the offstage pressure that this character excels at.

Dudes!!!! I used to be awesome with watch on melee and brawl but here I have a lot of problems, his attacks, his down smash is awful, the only thing I like ius the dash and the chair please help me dudes I cant believe I win with characters I never use on for glory but with watch a character I loved I suck the big one

His down smash is quite good, with good range and a decent amount of kill power. Ideally you need to pressure people into panic airdodging a predicted usmash into it, which is usually done by foxtrotting efficiently to space yourself into a falling opponent. Sourspot is also great for escaping pressure, getting your opponent in edgeguard territory, and slaying Little Mac.

Usmash a lot of aerial rushdowns and your opponent will be scared of you. You can even spam it in place sometimes. Throw out a chair right after if they think they can get to you after you usmash.

dthrow > nair until you are good enough to be absolutely sure that something else will combo. It doesn't hurt that you get a FREE 20%ISH EACH TIME. This is a fantastic aspect of this character. Learn to react to DI with this move right after you throw. Fastfaller practice helps too because they can DI you harder.

Learn to space fair as a beginner. Try to sweetspot it without getting into trouble (this is a constant struggle, don't worry, just try to do it most of the time). Learn what you can do with the lingering hitboxes that give you a sourspot hit (onstage, you can usually jab or evade, and offstage you may be able to combo it into sweetspot fair or something else).

Bair on crossup. You can true combo midair bair > bair in midair at certain percents as well.

Don't give up; experiment with what works relentlessly. This is not an easy character to use, but he is considerably underutilized - you DO have a chance to get good with him. Keep up the fight.

 

[GMan1255]

Dudes!!!! I used to be awesome with watch on melee and brawl but here I have a lot of problems, his attacks, his down smash is awful, the only thing I like ius the dash and the chair please help me dudes I cant believe I win with characters I never use on for glory but with watch a character I loved I suck the big one

Well, reading through this thread should help first and foremost. If you have not looked at the frame data thread, you should look here http://smashboards.com/threads/mr-frame-data-frame-data-information-ko.383626/ There is also the falling nair options which are here http://smashboards.com/threads/mr-game-and-watch-falling-neutral-air-combos.395638/ Honestly, I believe @ S SeanS gave very good information of how to pressure opponents and chase safely, and should be put into practice

 

[Johnny Heart Gold]

On certain character percent combos - usually of the fastfaller sort - you can get a true combo dthrow > uair kill given no unusual DI. (Rage also plays into what percents you do this stuff at.)

Players who are not at the top level regularly fall into panic airdodge when you threaten with it out of dthrow anyway and you can get a guaranteed uair kill on characters who should not die to this if they do this.

It's a decent move, let's say. Oh, and you can use it to mess up people's timings in the air if they try to counteract your other options - this can net you that usmash or dsmash, or at least a grab / dash attack into the offstage pressure that this character excels at.





His down smash is quite good, with good range and a decent amount of kill power. Ideally you need to pressure people into panic airdodging a predicted usmash into it, which is usually done by foxtrotting efficiently to space yourself into a falling opponent. Sourspot is also great for escaping pressure, getting your opponent in edgeguard territory, and slaying Little Mac.

Usmash a lot of aerial rushdowns and your opponent will be scared of you. You can even spam it in place sometimes. Throw out a chair right after if they think they can get to you after you usmash.

dthrow > nair until you are good enough to be absolutely sure that something else will combo. It doesn't hurt that you get a FREE 20%ISH EACH TIME. This is a fantastic aspect of this character. Learn to react to DI with this move right after you throw. Fastfaller practice helps too because they can DI you harder.

Learn to space fair as a beginner. Try to sweetspot it without getting into trouble (this is a constant struggle, don't worry, just try to do it most of the time). Learn what you can do with the lingering hitboxes that give you a sourspot hit (onstage, you can usually jab or evade, and offstage you may be able to combo it into sweetspot fair or something else).

Bair on crossup. You can true combo midair bair > bair in midair at certain percents as well.

Don't give up; experiment with what works relentlessly. This is not an easy character to use, but he is considerably underutilized - you DO have a chance to get good with him. Keep up the fight.

Thanks a lot, I'll try them all!

 

[DobbyMatrix]

Hey everyone! I've been lurking around the boards for months now and picked G&W up as a main in the last month or so. I was messing around with Judgement on Battlefield's platforms for a while, and noticed that there are a lot of strange things you can do by combining running off the edge and B-reversing Judgement. When you run off a platform and use Judgement as you're leaving it, you get a small momentum boost. You can do this facing forward or backward, and if B-reversed, you can slide yourself back under the platform you're running off of. It can also be done with Chef (and Oil Panic, though it can't be B-reversed), but I would imagine it's most useful with Judgement.

Is this useful? Is it already well-known? I didn't notice much about it while browsing this forum, though I may have missed it. I could see it being helpful for edgeguarding/reaching opponents that are on under a platform you're on.

 

[GMan1255]

The use is situational at best. It can certainly be an unexpected move, but I struggle to believe you could actually hit with that judge because the startup is extremely noticeable and you would be in neutral so they should be able to avoid it with no real issue. As far as edgeguarding goes, it would be better to use his other tools, especially UpB which is just amazing for edgeguarding.

 

[lllp3lll]

Found some really interesring things out:

-Right after an airborne footstool you can use Uair which actually pulls them up to you. This can actually lead into a read dependent aerial based on where they di. At around early mid percents a full hop from Dthrow led into a footstool nicely, which allowed me to carry them with Uair, followed by jumping into a Dair spike, essentially being a death string provided you time your recovery so you don't save them(Or use it to spike.). This was done in training, but with a good read could net you a stock I think.

The Uair thing thing is cool, But I don't see why wouldn't you just Dair right away after the footstool to set up combo's. Aside from style points.

I'm a massive fan of Dair spiking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7e17SRUOpwA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2YPJ51B390
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTTNPyJ4zZA
https://youtu.be/-wngz14XKvk?t=81

But using a footstool to set it up sounds like a stock trade since G&W needs to be at least at ledge level to recover with Fire (upB-1), and most of my footstool happen under the ledge- maybe it's viable with Trampoline .

 

[TheMiSP]

What are your thoughts on retreating bair? Specifically if you hop over a shielding opponent and do it on them?

I'm finding myself wanting the New 3DS so I can reliably pull it off.

 

[BBC7]

On certain character percent combos - usually of the fastfaller sort - you can get a true combo dthrow > uair kill given no unusual DI. (Rage also plays into what percents you do this stuff at.)

It's more than just fastfallers, it's almost everyone that dies to this. Might be a new change because I don't remember it being this way in 1.0.4.

http://smashboards.com/threads/mr-frame-data-frame-data-information-ko.383626/page-2#post-19026576

 

[Neb]

Can we confirm this?

http://smashboards.com/threads/mewt...ated-fri-4pm-pst.398902/page-16#post-18996084

 

[SFA Smiley]

Maybe it is stronger. It's possible. I don't land that move much because usmash lol.

 

[lllp3lll]

I can confirm it kills mario @ 107% sweetspoted off the top of omega. -No Rage

 

[Kofu]

I can confirm it kills mario @ 107% sweetspoted off the top of omega. -No Rage

They're using Thinkaman's data which, while generally accurate, is occasionally off a little. I suspect there's not really a change.

Incidentally, was the 107% kill on 3DS or Wii U? Having the two games have differing blastzones is really stupid.

 

[lllp3lll]

3ds but I can test on wii as well if you'd like/

 

[Patriot Duck]

I've found that falling uair > uair is a kill combo provided G&W lands before the second hit of the first uair comes out.

 

[NouveauRétro]

Is this a tech sharing thread? Trying to disseminate my tricks somewhere where a lot of people will see them. I really want to author a guide to advance strats w/ G&W, but I would hate to not have a video to illustrate, and I don't have Elgato or any method of capturing gameplay that isn't ugly.

 

[SaintNick49]

I think GnW is actually good on gor glory 1v1 you can kill with all his smash attacks if you read them right i feel his Fair is like sheiks Fair good for knocking of a map if you hig right hes good at edge gaurding if you can hit with the side B and since each ones different theres good combo potential you can down throw into side B until 50 then you have to jump to get them i feel his forward throw launches thrm to far to do any thing a lot like his back throw if youre on the edge his up air can really help to get up smashes and his down tilt is good for people who dash or short hop ands goid for keeping them at bay his up B helps if youre below the edge since he'll it people on the way up his dash attack is great for my play style