Game & Watch Match-up Export Thread Directory

[Mr. Escalator]

I was focusing on the first phase and the switch mechanic. The second phase is probably a bad place to fight snake, but ah well.

I wanted three stages as other ideas in case these two were personally banned by the opponent for the set, but I couldnt think of a third. I snuck Frigate in there.

What stage should I put there instead?

 

[omegablackmage]

i agree with rainbow cruise, def. if japes is on i'll go there, then to frigate orpheon, then to norfair, then to delphino.

 

[Neb]

i agree with rainbow cruise, def. if japes is on i'll go there, then to frigate orpheon, then to norfair, then to delphino.

I think it should go Rainbow Cruise, Japes, Norfair, Frigate, Delphino.
Norfair has more priority than Orpheon because the lava swells, which make Snakes weapon preparation and slow start up on his stronger moves, harder to utilize. Though I'm still hesitant, since there's those times where there is only one plantform, which makes way for punishment with his heavy tilts.

 

[Lotsa_Spaghetti]

Snake=Easy to Spike. IMO, Snake's the easiest character for G&W to spike. I've gotten plenty of collective dair spikes and dthrow spikes on Snake than any other character. Although that might have just been because i was playing noobs. Pro Snake players will probably be too smart to fall for any of that.

 

[Ruuku]

Man, it sucks that most of Florida is banning Jungle Japes.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Really? Thats lame :S
Well the SBR doesn't think JJ should be banned, I believe, but ah well then :[
Maybe when they come out with an official ruling things will change.

 

[napZzz]

Hmmm I'm not even sure anywhere around here you can even choose jungle japes or rainbow cruise in a tournament...but in friendlies maybe. Cutter, the match up is in snakes favor but if you outsmart snake, you can pull it off. Mind games run brawl everyone.

 

[Ruuku]

Really? Thats lame :S
Well the SBR doesn't think JJ should be banned, I believe, but ah well then :[
Maybe when they come out with an official ruling things will change.

Something about Falco having an easy time against a lot of characters on JJ.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

That is something I can believe. I played a great falco main, and he CP'd Jungle Japes. It was pretty hard on me.

But, I don't think an advantage makes a ban, just a good counterpick.

 

[omegablackmage]

Snake: (5/5)

General Matchup:

• Snake is a well built killing machine, having a large variety of moves that can strike gw's light weight frame down quickly. The up tilt and up air will have no problem killing gw vertically at 80%, the ftilt, nair, bair, dair, and jab combo will also kill pretty quickly.
• Snake is also built with many projectiles at his disposal. Most notably the grenades and mortars, but the nikita, c4, and proxy mine can have you dodging around the stage more than focusing on snake.
• Snake has a good amount of range to a lot of his attacks, mainly the ftilt and uptilt, but you will find his aerials and other tilts can be a very large pain to gw, usually matching his own range.
• Snake's recovery is one of the more interesting one's in the game. It has only a certain amount of super armor when he is rising with his cypher, so only aerials with strong knockback like the fair and key will knock him out. Even with the pseudo super armor, this is where you will find you can hurt snake the most.
• Other than trying to tossing fast-falling bairs at you when recovering, snake doesn't have a lot of options to gimp you as most of his projectiles are nullified by up b's.
• Snake is a character with poor movement based combos. You will rarely see him chain multiple moves together across the stage. However, he is good at close combat combos that don't move you anywhere but rack up serious damage. By utilizing the first to jabs, ftilt knee, grab to dthrow he can very quickly rack up the 80 damage he needs to kill you with an up tilt, VERY devastating to gw's survival.
• Due to snake falling fairly quickly, nair combos, up air combos, and the other usual combos work just fine. Snake also doesn't have a quick aerials to interrupt things : )

General Strategies:

• At all costs, avoid being in close combat with snake unless you are POSITIVE you can get a grab, otherwise it isn't worth it. Because what I mentioned above about his close combat combos, you will find yourself dying quickly if you stay too close. And if you can get a grab to dthrow in, keep in mind that snake's tech roll is one of the longest in the game.
• Snake is pegged out to have an amazing keep away game, but personally i think its pretty overrated. Grenades are nice, but for the most part are quite easy to avoid. Most snakes fall into the habit of using their mortar slide at a certain distance, so learn to set that distance up and start charging f smashes.
• Because snake has some projectiles to pressure you, and an amazing close combat game, you need to learn to dominate this middle ground in between the two. You have to be too far for them to mortar slide and too close for tilts or jabs to reach. This is where you have to shine. Learn how to punish with the turtle and dtilt at this range to pressure him. When shielding an ftilt with your back to him you can sh and bair and hit him before he gets his sheild up. Some might use the bacon when in this range, but i feel as though the move is too laggy to bother with.
• When edgeguarding snake learn how to deal with each type of situation. If he up b's close to the stage, grab him or his cypher and don't throw or hit him and he'll die (can't use his up b again). If he recovers low but too far to grab learn to use your dair spike to send him back down (don't forget to slowfall it). If he recovers mid range, then use a strong fair or a forward b (hammers 4-9 knock him out) to give some damage and send him back out). If he recovers too high then you have two options. You can up air him to make him use a laggy aerial and then punish. Or you can wait for an air dodge out of the up b and then up b yourself to send him back out. All of these tactics should cover whatever he does to recover. If he does need to c4 to recover, go out over him and have a fair waiting for him to potentially kill him.
• Dtilt will clank with all of snakes attacks, but his tilts are a few frames faster than the dtilt comes out again so either roll away or run away after this happens. I've found that most of your aerials will cancel out snakes if spaced properly. So learn to keep snake in the air if you can, because you can dominate him very easily here.
• If you land behind him with a key through a mortar (it goes through it) you can usually get your shield up faster than he can ftilt you. Watch out though in case then mix it up and try to grab you. You also need to get good at watching out for when he pulls grenades out and then shields, this also applies for when you bair him. If you have good enough spacing control you can avoid hitting the grenade.
• Snakes hate the up air as they can't move through the air very fast, very good for getting punishing smashes off.
• Learn to make good use of your smashes and keep them fresh, because having a snake at 180 percent can be depressing and demoralizing.

Stages:

• Any stage that moves a lot or has recovery hazards are excellent choice. GW has superior movement and recovery in every way so make use of it. Stages like rainbow cruise (lot of moving around and recovering), frigate orpheon (missing ledges, flipping stage), delphino (stage changes, dtilt locks), and norfair (hazards to put him in the air, not a lot of room to mortar slide/grenade, can get under him for pressure nairs) are all good stages for playing against snake.
• Avoid stages with either low ceilings or incredibly large boundaries. Stages like pictochat, halberd, and hanenbow seem to come in mind. They either can get really low percent kills here or can use the stage to camp or survive well.

 

[cutter]

So who'll we discuss next? I would be ok with doing any of these characters next:
- Marth
- Olimar
- DK

EDIT: Nevermind I just saw Marth is next.

I'll get to this in a bit. I have dinner made for myself and I'm starving.

 

[Neb]

Looks good OBM, Marth's next.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'd say Marth is like the lower tiered MK. He's very aggressive, and has quick attacks with good range. Marth however unlike MK does not have many safe kill moves, hence I'd think he would be significantly easier to deal with if you know how to deal with MK.

Marth has a pretty nasty blind spot below him. His D-air is an awful attack in Brawl, due to the undesirable landing lag, and the spike being situational. None of his other attacks prove any reliable hitboxes below him. Because Marth can be difficult to D-throw to D-smash, it's worth U-throwing him.

Eh, I'll leave it as that for now.

 

[cutter]

I really haven't played any good Marths. The majority of them noobishly spam Fsmash, Fair, Counter, and Up B which is pretty easy to get around. It's still a bit of a challenge though.

At times it seems like Marth has the advantage during the match while G&W has the advantage at other times. Like Snake, this feels like a 5/5 matchup to me.

The key to beating Marth IMO is mixing up your approaches. He is one of the very few characters in the game that can challenge the Turtle. I do a lot more approach of Nair, Fair, dash attack, Usmash, shield cancelling, and I'll even airdodge to approach to draw a Counter.

This also one of the few characters I'll use Chef on since Marth isn't super quick like Metaknight and doesn't have a projectile.

G&W's smashes kill Marth so early it's crazy. I've killed him at 80% with sweetspot Dsmash and Fsmash many times. Usmash easily dispatches him in the 80s with ease off a techchase.

According to IvanEva's matchup chart (lol), G&W has a disadvantage to Marth, but I really think it's neutral. Too bad IvanEva hasn't updated the chart in over 2 weeks, Emblem Lord is adamant that Marth > G&W, and it's no use arguing any of the other matchups (especially the Lucario matchup... ugh). Esc and I tried making sense into why G&W has a large advantage over Lucario, but a couple of Lucario mainers attempted to derail the thread and stubbornly defend that G&W only has a "small" advantage over Lucario.

 

[Plum]

Spacing is VERY important against Marth. A tipped attack is the last thing you want.
I haven't played any good Marths, but even poorly played Marths know that a tipped attack is the last thing you are going to want to get hit by with your light frame.

 

[Plum]

Sorry about the double post. My computer lied to me saying the first didn't post...

 

[A2ZOMG]

Whatever for Emblem Lord. I know other people like Teh_Spammerer who think G&W is clearly a superior character. *shrug*

IMO if G&W has even the slightest advantage vs MK, which is the conclusion we seemed to have come to, then Marth is an even better matchup for G&W. Marth in many ways is a lot like MK, but he lacks kill moves that are safe on block, and he has a more one-tracked recovery.

Vs Lucario. Forget the fact you can Bucket Aura Sphere. G&W kills Lucario at very low percents either way, and he happens to also be extremely good at ledgeguarding. Combined with the fact Lucario doesn't have any absolutely clear wins in range in this matchup, this makes it extremely hard for Lucario to get any momentum on G&W.

 

[omegablackmage]

my experiences vs marth, although limited seem to boil down to these points:

- turtles and fairs against marth's shield have to be pixel perfect spacing, or you will eat an up b out of shield.
- very difficult to edgeguard because his up b has so much priority, but i'll get into this more later (tomorrow maybe).
- has a hard time killing unless he can land random fsmash tippers or maybe upsmashes.
- forward b is pretty quick and you need to learn to di out of it fast.
- doesn't really have any edgeguarding options
- agreed that he seems like a modified MK in many ways.

hylian, you should post what you know about this matchup as you probably have the most experience with it. how does this release grab crap work and what can marth do with it?

 

[Cyan_]

dthrow (or was it fthrow?) to fsmash guarantees a tipper at very low %s, so watch out for that.

Also, less experienced Marths tend to spam SH double fair.

 

[omegablackmage]

ok so i did a little research and tried to follow what the release grab threads were saying about vs. gw.

basically what happens is if the character marth is grabbing is off of the ground during the grab stand animation (marth just holding gw, gw is not touching the ground), then no matter what gw will do a jump release assuming marth isn't grab attacking gw. So marth just needs to grab, and when gw escapes the grab, he will do the jump release.

Now, supposedly there is a certain amount of time before gw can react, and marth can land some attacks w/o fail. Assuming the testing they have done is correct, then a fair, dolphin slash, and dancing blade are all free hits.

What does this mean for gw players? well besides the obvious don't get grabbed, make sure your always mashing out of your grabs, as they will probably try to get a few grab hits in and then wait, you'd rather avoid that damage. Other than that, keep looking for ways to get out of these hits. Maybe their testing isn't 100% correct just yet. If they are right then we'll just have to live with the fact that getting grabbed at 130% will mean that gw will die.

If marth could get free fsmash tippers out of this, i would say it would make a huge impact on the matchup, as he could kill MUCH earlier, but since fair isn't as strong it isn't as big of a deal. I still say this matchup is even, does anyone else have any information on this subject?

 

[Emblem Lord]

lol. Don't sweat the grab release stuff. It doesn't really work on G&W.

Also when have I ever said that Marth is superior to G&W?

A blind man could see G&W is better.

There is no point in me contributing to this BTW.

None of you save for Hylian will/have ever faced a good Marth.

They are few and far in between. And since Marth is not noob friendly, most Marths blow ***.

So have fun ****** Marths with Maim and Watch. lolz.

 

[Neb]

lol. Don't sweat the grab release stuff. It doesn't really work on G&W.

Also when have I ever said that Marth is superior to G&W?

A blind man could see G&W is better.

There is no point in me contributing to this BTW.

None of you save for Hylian will/have ever faced a good Marth.

They are few and far in between. And since Marth is not noob friendly, most Marths blow ***.

So have fun ****** Marths with Maim and Watch. lolz.

Tiredoftryingtohelpmakeyourmainbetter syndrome?
u_u.

 

[Emblem Lord]

No. No point in talking about a match-up that most of you will never have trouble in.

Let Hylian tell you about this match-up.

You guys seem to have the basics covered already.

 

[sonic 12111]

i vote that gaw has a 4/6 chance of winning because true gaw can cancel a lot of his projectiles but cant defeat rocket and snake has a much longer range roll for instince and is much stronger

 

[cutter]

i vote that gaw has a 4/6 chance of winning because true gaw can cancel a lot of his projectiles but cant defeat rocket and snake has a much longer range roll for instince and is much stronger

Currently, we're discussing vs. Marth, not Snake. -_-

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ok, enough goofing off from me. Time to help you guys out.

Let's get down to business.

G&W's advantages

- Better kill moves
- Lasting hitboxes
- Better recovery
- Great offense/pressure game

Marth's advantages

- Faster and has more mobility
- More range
- Heavier
- Awesome defensive game


I will say this to start. All the post so far, save for a couple have been a wealth of misinformation concerning Marth vs G&W. Who cares if MK vs G&W is slightly in G&W's favor? You think that because MK is superior to Marth that means Marth auto loses? No. Sorry. Match-ups don't work that way. Marth is a completely different beast then MK and what G&W's match is vs MK has no bearing on his match vs Marth or any of his other matches for that matter.

Next thing You need to know is this. Match-up analysis is about high level play. So talking about how crap Marth's spam fairs and how it's easy to deal with is pointless. Good Marth's will not do this so this is irrelevant.

Marth vs G&W is one big spacing war. On paper Marth has more things going for him. More speed, more range, he has answers for G&W's offensive game and G&W can't really edgeguard him effectively. But in the match-up G&W's raw killing power is enough to keep him in the game and make the match very close.

In this match G&W can't abuse his offense as much. Doing aerials to up b to more aerials takes a hit due to Marth's range and his counter. After the first aerial Marth can just counter and stuff G&W. And if G&W doesn't space perfectly on Marth's shield he eats up b. If he does Fair on Marth's shield he could eat an U-smash. G&W also can't abuse his up b to dair or fast falling aerials also due to counter and Marth's U-smash.

G&W must play more patient then he is used to I would imagine. This is actually probably the most boring match-up for G&W players since any carelessness or miscalculation will be punished by Marth. So the safest thing to do is just Turtle dance, but Marth can play that game equally well with his good aerial mobility. He can weave back and forth in the air with ease just as G&W can. And since Marth has more range, he has a bit more leeway then G&W.

G&W however has the ability to simply throw out kill moves when Marth is at higher percents. His kill moves are fairly safe on block unlike Marth's. So he has more leeway in that department. Still G&W is second lightest in the game and a tipper is devastating. And don't think Tipper F-smash is the only threat. Tipper D-smash is Marth's second strongest smash attack and can kill G&W in the mid 90's. Untipped it can kill in the low hundreds and it comes out in frame 6. Also Marth's tipper F-smash is actually pretty safe on block so be aware of that.

Edgeguarding...bah. Neither character can really edgeguard the other. Although G&W might be able to get some hits in a bit better then Marth can because he has the better recovery.

Also be aware that Marth doesn't have to go air to air to beat G&W's aerials. He could just do an f-smash or an f-tilt to stuff G&W's aerials.

The key to this match-up is patience.

 

[Hylian]

Ugh sorry guys, I have a lot going on in my life, so I've been busy. I am on my wii right now, but I have a ton of experience vs Marth so I will definitly write up everything I know.

 

[Neb]

Ugh sorry guys, I have a lot going on in my life, so I've been busy. I am on my wii right now, but I have a ton of experience vs Marth so I will definitly write up everything I know.

Finally, we get assistance from the pro's!

 

[Hawks go Caw]

Dash attack > Marth's Sword

How long is Marth's sword? Does it have more range than some of G&W's moves like Dtilt or Fsmash?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yeah, I wouldn't advise overusing dash attack.

Marth's sword beats all of G&W's moves in terms of range. You won't win a battle of range.

But, anyway dash attack is good every now and then, but don't fall back on it. That ending lag is ugly.

 

[Needle of Juntah]

marth huh.... welll this is a lil bit old but here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a24t5_U26Ug

 

[pockyD]

I can't believe you, man, lol! Posting our hard worked, match-up info on the Snake boards to get swallowed, digested, and put to shame. They're going to spoil up counters to destroy all of our efforts.

well this is a pretty lousy mentality

it's like not telling someone how to break a chain-grab just so you can maintain a short-lived advantage

 

[Neb]

Oh, I'm sorry, pft.
Just, if everyone's working on a matchup to stop Snakes, why would we give, what we all just worked on, to them? They'll eventually re-counter it, and we'll have to make another analysis. And no, its more like putting everything we just came up with in the garbage.

But if you don't understand that, its okay.

 

[pockyD]

no, because if you give what you know to the snake community, you can read what they're doing and find out whether the advice is actually effective or not

"theoretical" matchup talk is exactly that; theoretical - you want to have the maximum amount of knowledge on both sides to produce the maximum amount of insight. If the extent of the matchup is "hope snake doesn't know how to utilt", then maybe you shouldn't let them know (although i think they mostly know how to utilt)

if you just want to beat joe snake who only walks back and forth and ftilts, they probably don't read the forums anyway so it doesn't affect you

 

[Mr. Game and Penguin]

Guys, can we just get back to Marth?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Osnap here's Emblem Lord. =O
But man you know stuff. XD

Honestly, I think G&W can camp most characters better with the D-tilt than he can with the B-air. If Marth tries to approach G&W with an aerial, he'll likely eat a D-tilt which also has really silly range, not to mention G&W's crouch is ridiculously low so if he just stays crouching, it will be really hard for Marth, not to mention anyone to hit him with aerials.

Although I guess it wouldn't be safe against Dancing blade... =(

Otherwise I'll restate that the key here is to get Marth above you since he does not have any safe options below him. His safest option is likely Counter, which you can do silly things to by U-air stalling and then punishing afterwards.

 

[cutter]

Ok this appears to be at a standstill. OBM, can you make a summary of the matchup and we'll move on?

Next up I think should be
- Olimar
- Donkey Kong
- someone else who can give G&W a good match

 

[_Phloat_]

Ok this appears to be at a standstill. OBM, can you make a summary of the matchup and we'll move on?

Next up I think should be
- Olimar
- Donkey Kong
- someone else who can give G&W a good match

It looks like Hylian has something coming though...

 

[Needle of Juntah]

i played against a marth today

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Kty-nmTLoiI

 

[Neb]

i played against a marth today

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Kty-nmTLoiI

Nice turtle dancing, NoJ.
That finishing KO, I do that all the time.
._.b