Binx
Smash Master
You mean a super fast *throw* cause if I remember right his grab start up is terrible.
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Guide Ice Climber Match Up Guide
- Thread starter Binx
- Start date
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
How do you fight a platform camping Doc? Chok's advice is really accurate and I've learned from it but I can't seem to get around this part of Doc's game. Two of my crewmates play Doc and one of them spends most of his time in the air. He'll use pill spam to force me to approach the ledge, fool around above me with d-airs and often will fastfall f-air on reaction, and it's a lot harder to counter than what I've learned to play against. I would think u-air is the simple answer but it seems like he's always able to double jump or retreat and punish.
I wish I knew how to platform camp. =[
Binx
Smash Master
Kyu, try predicting his double jumps with a double jumped fair, the extra start up can give him time to fall into it, even if you miss as long as he actually did double jump you should be able to land and shield before he can punish, if you hit it does more damage than uair also, and he will be in the air w/o a double jump for more fun.
When he is falling down you can add some more pressure with short hop feigns or dj/full hopped attacks.
Macman - you shouldn't platform camp with ICs, its really more usefull for characters with faster falling speeds, or more range, or a good diagonal projectile, Sheik has all 3!
When he is falling down you can add some more pressure with short hop feigns or dj/full hopped attacks.
Macman - you shouldn't platform camp with ICs, its really more usefull for characters with faster falling speeds, or more range, or a good diagonal projectile, Sheik has all 3!
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I'd probably camp him back. Most people get bored and approach eventually.
Binx
Smash Master
He should know how to get around it for the times that he is at a percentage disadvantage
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
He never gets bored of spamming pills. Normally I love fighting platform campers because I don't really have trouble predicting double jumps or waiting for them to fall, but in this match I feel like I'm punished for approaching more often than not. Safe options like sh u-air work sometimes but I still don't do well against him because... the match-up isn't fun in general. It's hard to explain, I wish I had some vids or something.
Btw, if I contributed to the guide at all, would any of it be edited in?
Btw, if I contributed to the guide at all, would any of it be edited in?
I don't play a cheap character like ICs... theres two of them! =[
Binx
Smash Master
Yeah Kyu, I try to edit stuff in when I can, if I forget go ahead and send me a PM.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
Link match-up
Before you rush in, wanting to destroy his spammy ***, remember that Link, a mediocre version of Ganon, is a defensive wall. No matter how slow and completely lacking of potential he is, he has a lot of priority and range, and you put yourself at risk by being on the blind aggressive. Watch out for defensive tools -- n-air, u-tilt, f-air, jab, d-smash -- while keeping in mind that he has a significant range advantage on you. You want to get close enough to Link to stop his projectile spam, but play a patient punishing game, abusing his inability to do anything when you don't approach.
The hitbox of his u-tilt extends far behind him, so be aware of it while he's facing away. It hits you out many approaches if you misspace your wavedash, and afterward he can combo Nana (who won't DI out of it) with additional u-tilts, u-air, and d-air. It will be tough to save her considering the priority of his u-tilt and your position after being hit. According to Wobbles you can CC the u-tilt and punish.
Fortunately Link isn't a fantastic Nana-killer. His d-air hits Nana diagonally upwards and doesn't kill her for a long time on most stages. Up+B semi-spikes her if she walks into it in the middle of its animation. His only other reliable way of killing Nana is knocking her off the stage, and either spiking her with up+B or stealing her jump with n-air (in which case she's unable to recover).
Another problem fighting Link lies in his heaviness and recovery. I try to be reactive when edgeguarding Link. Unless you perfectly time invincibility frames, edgehogging typically doesn't work. If you wait away from the ledge to see if he sweetspots or not, you can try to edgehog him if he sweetspots or wd d-smash if he misses. When you're off the stage he'll hit you out of side+B with his n-air and up+B; recovering onto platforms is usually safer although a sweetspot from below with SoPo might throw him off.
Link's n-air has the best priority from above you, and he loves to fulljump n-air. Link mains also love to platform camp, and there are plenty of uses for u-tilt and u-smash (although u-smash is situational as always, it can get you some surprise kills from under the platforms on YS). If Link uses fj n-air to double jump on your shield make use of u-air and b-air oos.
What do you think of adding a section on counterpick/ban stages? Maybe that should just be kept to the stage thread.
Before you rush in, wanting to destroy his spammy ***, remember that Link, a mediocre version of Ganon, is a defensive wall. No matter how slow and completely lacking of potential he is, he has a lot of priority and range, and you put yourself at risk by being on the blind aggressive. Watch out for defensive tools -- n-air, u-tilt, f-air, jab, d-smash -- while keeping in mind that he has a significant range advantage on you. You want to get close enough to Link to stop his projectile spam, but play a patient punishing game, abusing his inability to do anything when you don't approach.
The hitbox of his u-tilt extends far behind him, so be aware of it while he's facing away. It hits you out many approaches if you misspace your wavedash, and afterward he can combo Nana (who won't DI out of it) with additional u-tilts, u-air, and d-air. It will be tough to save her considering the priority of his u-tilt and your position after being hit. According to Wobbles you can CC the u-tilt and punish.
Fortunately Link isn't a fantastic Nana-killer. His d-air hits Nana diagonally upwards and doesn't kill her for a long time on most stages. Up+B semi-spikes her if she walks into it in the middle of its animation. His only other reliable way of killing Nana is knocking her off the stage, and either spiking her with up+B or stealing her jump with n-air (in which case she's unable to recover).
Another problem fighting Link lies in his heaviness and recovery. I try to be reactive when edgeguarding Link. Unless you perfectly time invincibility frames, edgehogging typically doesn't work. If you wait away from the ledge to see if he sweetspots or not, you can try to edgehog him if he sweetspots or wd d-smash if he misses. When you're off the stage he'll hit you out of side+B with his n-air and up+B; recovering onto platforms is usually safer although a sweetspot from below with SoPo might throw him off.
Link's n-air has the best priority from above you, and he loves to fulljump n-air. Link mains also love to platform camp, and there are plenty of uses for u-tilt and u-smash (although u-smash is situational as always, it can get you some surprise kills from under the platforms on YS). If Link uses fj n-air to double jump on your shield make use of u-air and b-air oos.
What do you think of adding a section on counterpick/ban stages? Maybe that should just be kept to the stage thread.
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned via Warnings
no adding a counter pick stage is smart think about bowser he can kill you at low %s on yoshi's story and you would what to take him to FD because he sucks more on large stages
Binx
Smash Master
Honestly, for Ice Climbers the counter pick for every character is the same.
You want either FD or DL, with PS close after those and you want to avoid Yoshi's
Fountain and Battlefield are bad as well compared to the larger neutrals. Obviously you don't want to be on any of the CP levels if you can help it, I personally use my stage reset on BF only, which is bad because its difficult for most characters to sweetspot on the stage making the edgeguarding a little better. I LOVE yoshi story, its my favorite map, and I'll CP people there even though it's stupid. If you look at the level design though, and take into account ICs playing style they do worst on Yoshi's out of all neutral stages.
There are very few exceptions to this, for instance I would take captain Falcon to Fountain, and then Yoshi's because the way his character plays, I might also consider using my random reset on PS.
You want either FD or DL, with PS close after those and you want to avoid Yoshi's
Fountain and Battlefield are bad as well compared to the larger neutrals. Obviously you don't want to be on any of the CP levels if you can help it, I personally use my stage reset on BF only, which is bad because its difficult for most characters to sweetspot on the stage making the edgeguarding a little better. I LOVE yoshi story, its my favorite map, and I'll CP people there even though it's stupid. If you look at the level design though, and take into account ICs playing style they do worst on Yoshi's out of all neutral stages.
There are very few exceptions to this, for instance I would take captain Falcon to Fountain, and then Yoshi's because the way his character plays, I might also consider using my random reset on PS.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
Don't forget Corneria!
That's how I feel about FoD. I don't care if I lose there, I just love that stage too much.
Binx
Smash Master
It's not a bad stage, the way the platforms work there can really mess with other people's ability to L cancel effectively on the lower platforms, also at certain heights they can protect you from certain aerials. VS Falcon because of how long some of his attack take to start the platforms will cancel his short hopped attacks before they have a hit box XD.
Weird, I really really love YS.
--KO floaties at around 60-70 with charged d-throw up-smash
--Harder to camp ICs on a stage that small
--Badly DI'ed d-smashes KO can KO at like, 50 or 60
--Up-smash through platforms tends to hit people's toes.
--Wide ledge-range for the handoff.
--Cloud can help you recover if you keep good track of it.
--Harder to outspace ICs when there is less room to maneuver.
I just had a pretty good batch of fights against Forward in tourney, and this level is probably why I won; I actually 3 stocked his Marth on YS. Of course, he 2 stocked me next match with Falcon, so it was pretty clearly a fluke, but even so, I feel really comfortable there. I was able to counterpick his Falcon to FoD next, which--as mentioned--is a good stage to fight him on. It's probably my least favorite place to fight Marth though. He can just pull so many ridiculous stunts with the platforms... it gets pretty violent.
--KO floaties at around 60-70 with charged d-throw up-smash
--Harder to camp ICs on a stage that small
--Badly DI'ed d-smashes KO can KO at like, 50 or 60
--Up-smash through platforms tends to hit people's toes.
--Wide ledge-range for the handoff.
--Cloud can help you recover if you keep good track of it.
--Harder to outspace ICs when there is less room to maneuver.
I just had a pretty good batch of fights against Forward in tourney, and this level is probably why I won; I actually 3 stocked his Marth on YS. Of course, he 2 stocked me next match with Falcon, so it was pretty clearly a fluke, but even so, I feel really comfortable there. I was able to counterpick his Falcon to FoD next, which--as mentioned--is a good stage to fight him on. It's probably my least favorite place to fight Marth though. He can just pull so many ridiculous stunts with the platforms... it gets pretty violent.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
I counterpick YS more than anything and it's worked well for me in tournament. Don't forget that the cloud often saves Nana also. 
Binx
Smash Master
Maybe Ice Climbers are just great on all the neutrals then? I dunno, I counterpick Yoshis too, but when I analyze it, it seems like every other stage has more advantages. Minus the CPs of course.
Finch
Smash Lord
Arg me and hozart both lost to ganons on saturday. He lost to linguini so that's understandable but I lost to random 13 year old who just spammed fair for 3 matches and he lost to spider sense in losers who is pretty good but not at all as good as hozart.
I just don't know how you get around fair. My entire strategy against ganon is just to grab him and then reverse dthrow dair for like a minute until he's at killing percent, but if I get hit with one fair nana is almost guaranteed to die and I will probably end up losing a stock. I know that I have to be patient in the matchup, but WTF there's like no opportunity to approach at all if he's just doing retreating fairs.
I just don't know how you get around fair. My entire strategy against ganon is just to grab him and then reverse dthrow dair for like a minute until he's at killing percent, but if I get hit with one fair nana is almost guaranteed to die and I will probably end up losing a stock. I know that I have to be patient in the matchup, but WTF there's like no opportunity to approach at all if he's just doing retreating fairs.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Yea, Ganon's fair is impossible to deal with. Coupled with his ftilt and uair, it's a really dumb match-up for ICs. Even Chu seems to have a lot of trouble with Ganon. I guess you just have to have crazy good spacing.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I blizzard a lot against Ganon. One stupid gimmick that has worked pretty well in my experience is to get close and shield the fair, then immediately belay OoS -> blizzard.
edit: I no longer agree with this post.
edit: I no longer agree with this post.
Alpha Dash
Smash Ace
YS is a good stage to play on with ICs but bad against fox's and falcos in my opinion. Fox's u-air destroys them and surprisingly falcos shine on the top platform can kill 'em very easily and so can both up-bs will also result in disaster...
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
And Ganon. Looooooool.
Finch
Smash Lord
I think yoshi's gives advantages to both ICs and spacies in the matchup, it just comes down to which player is better on the stage. Yoshi's low platforms are really really good for ICs.
Alpha Dash
Smash Ace
Fountain of dreams does the job though.
Airwalkerr
Smash Journeyman
How about some Zelda help? I get rocked by my friends Zelda, with her impeccable lightning kicks that cannot be baited and those desynching f-smashes that make my games ever so miserable. Some quick tips, if you please.
Alpha Dash
Smash Ace
Yeah I've actually lost that match up a few times I cant lie... The way I found my head around that was to be careful on recovery. Also poor spotdodging is what usually got me (or nana) super kicked, so I had to fix that real quick. But I do need a little more advice on this matchup myself...
Drecker
Smash Ace
I just love small stages.
Two characters gives you unprecedented control.
Two characters gives you unprecedented control.
Binx
Smash Master
I dunno how old this is but on the off chance someone reads this...
The thing about ICs vs Zelda is that its really not safe for either character to approach the other, Zelda can out range all your approaches so you have to be sneaky, this match up is VERY similar to the marth match up, the main differences are that Zelda doesn't have as much ground or air speed and this is what does her in.
You basically have 2 options to open up damage, you either desynch iceblock and force her to approach from the air, or you can platform camp and pick careful times to drop through with back and down airs, the first option is safer but not always reliable.
Spend plenty of time in light shields and make sure to get a good smash off if you get grabbed.
Finch
Smash Lord
ICs **** zelda. Really the only thing a good zelda has going for her is smart, spaced kicks, but ICs just have so many options for getting around that and she dies so easily it's really not fair. Just grab her and cg her or combo her.
Alpha Dash
Smash Ace
I hear that, thanks.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I thought you couldn't chain grab Zelda?
Other than Wobbles and hand-off shenanigans I don't think much throw stuff works on her.
Finch
Smash Lord
If she DIs up it doesn't work but most players don't know that so shhhhhhhhhh. If she DIs away, which most players do, you can definitely get the regrab. Smarter players will generally catch on but then you can do other combos to mix it up.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Yes! Bank on ignorance! Perfect plan! Nothing can go wrong :D
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I've never played against a good Zelda, but I'd probably just camp her really hard. That's what I do against a lot of stupid characters.
Binx
Smash Master
I've had trouble against some zelda players but that all goes away once you start treating her like a threat, its not a hard match up but you do have to be careful about how and when you approach.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
For obscure match-ups like Zelda I think treating her like a threat might put you in a bad mentality. Instead I like to pick a tough match-up that I'm comfortable in, play like I would in that match-up, and it is noticeably easier. You definitely don't want to underestimate her, but if you actually consider that she has some kind of advantage you might start to avoid easy openings.
Binx
Smash Master
When I say treat her like a threat I just mean realize that its not going to be a cakewalk unless you play it correctly, take ICs vs Pichu or Pikachu or DK, all you have to do is be aggressive but not stupid and you should dominate simply because those characters don't have any acceptable answers to our moveset.
Zelda if played carefully and correctly can really dominate an IC if we don't play carefully, but she shouldn't be able to win at all if we play the match up right. To play the match up right you have to force Zelda to approach you, or only approach her when she is doing something unsafe. And if you have access to platforms you can move around her and get more openings.
Zelda if played carefully and correctly can really dominate an IC if we don't play carefully, but she shouldn't be able to win at all if we play the match up right. To play the match up right you have to force Zelda to approach you, or only approach her when she is doing something unsafe. And if you have access to platforms you can move around her and get more openings.
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
I would love to see this thread remade or revived or a new Match Up Thread made.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
i attack zelda. i'm like the opposite of fly lol. i think ic's are too fast for her, i pressure her too hard for her to pull off too many sweetspot kicks