Imperfect Control

[SynikaL]

This was my the strangest problem with this game. The game, amazingly, seems to have control issues. I don't know if it's just the nature of the new system and there's a mechanic we're not aware of, flirting with us, so I can't say for sure -- but everyone found themselves turning the opposite direction or jumping randomly when generally playing. It was quite annoying, the controls just don't feel very tight. This may be us just not being very good yet, but it's something that I don't remember experiencing in the previous games. It happened most after landing an aerial or trying to DashDance and was completely ****ing over the ground game.

A few weeks ago I realized Brawl had a Universal Buffer system in place and I've been physically and mentally wrestling with the purpose of its existence ever since (outside the obvious attempt of streamlining the gameplay -- which may very well be its only purpose).

Why is this not being discussed -- I can't possibly be the only person having control issues with this game because of the buffer system. There's only so much you can do to mitigate its effect on your character:

What's infuriating about it is, spacing becomes a bit difficult quite often. Trying to Short Hop backwards to space or mind game can result in turning the opposite direction, leaving you open or betraying your intentions. This can be somewhat mitigated by pressing Forward prior to landing with the exception of one crucial situation: Spacing aerials.

For example, say I want to lead an approach with Falcon's Nair. My opponent shields it, so near the end I decide to hold back in an effort to space it -- this results in Falcon turning the opposite direction, as going to neutral prior to the 5-10 active buffer frames or pressing Forward is not an option in this scenario (since I'm attempting to space in order to avoid something such as a Shield Grab).

It happens most when you're really focusing on you opponent, and you find yourself randomly facing away from him -- very frustrating. The plus side, is that now that I know precisely what this is and how it works, I can work on ways to mitigate, circumvent and exploit it.

To add to this, Brawl obviously does not like Fast Falling, forcing you to duck after last moment Fast Falls, mitigating combo potential by stalling momentum (Falcon is hit hardest here IMO). Also, many buffer frames exist outside Aerials -- they're pretty prevalent throughout the game. As a result, never, for a single moment do I feel as though I have tight control over my character -- even intentions of Dashing towards my enemy arouses doubt because of Trip. Quite ridiculous.

To the people who are actually playing this game: I want to know how you feel about this issue; if it is as detrimental to you as it is to me, your guesses as to its purpose and what you're doing to mitigate its effect on your gameplay.


-Kimosabae

 

[-Linko-]

WTF is a Universal Buffer system and why does it make those weird things?

Try to explain it to people that aren't computer scientists

 

[DeliciousCake]

I haven't had much of a problem with this. Also, I think somebody posted a thread about this a few days ago but it got buried.

 

[SynikaL]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=146398

-Syn

 

[Gesi1223]

WTF is a Universal Buffer system and why does it make those weird things?

Try to explain it to people that aren't computer scientists

Agreed.

Or it could be a messed up controller.

 

[Blue sHell]

WTF is a Universal Buffer system and why does it make those weird things?

Try to explain it to people that aren't computer scientists

Really if you don't understand it don't try to cook up a remark like that.

..like...please


When I first started playing this was blatantly obvious to me too. Especially because I later picked up Wario and his main strength is his aerial DI being like Melee's Jigglypuff. But everytime I retreated after a missed Fair, I turned around when I landed.

What you do though, and I'm sure you know already, is to hold back to retreat and just when your about to land you press foward to not turn around. It sounds annoying but really after a while I barely noticed I was doing it, it just becomes muscle memory really. But I do understand that it should be a tad more annoying with chars that don't have as good aerial DI.

Also note that with Fox if you hit a nair into your opponent's shield and retreat slightly backwards without pressing foward before landing that you could nail them with an Uptilt right after you land do to the almost 0 lag frames on his nair. And Uptilts come out fast and are decently ranged from behind so it allows you to stay at a distance that you can't be grabbed as most characters. I haven't tested this 1000000000% but I've tried it a few times and it seems like a very good use of this new system.

But really. It's not a big deal at all. Theres a reason many of us aren't commenting about it. As characters I'm comfortable with I play perfectly controled and stable.

Tripping on the other hand is 100% ********.

Hope I helped.

 

[rageagainst]

yea most of the ppl here are casual and thats why you arn't getting any intelligent remarks, and also, i regularly surf this board and sometimes skim through adv. techniques and have NEVER seen any mention of a "universal buffer system" so don't be so harsh only very few will know what your talking about.

Yeah many impressions DID talk about control problems and you might have just found out what was causing them

 

[Chiroz]

I've only played 4 matches, but this became clearly obvious to me (although at the start I thought it was the controller)

I kept rolling to the side twice in a row, and kept dodging in place twice too. Although after a while I was able to control it more or less. I never had that problem you guys had of turning around when landing. I guess its because I let go of my direction at the last second before landing normally.

 

[M3D]

It seems to me like a way to deal with latency issues online. They give you buffer windows for inputs to allow for lag over the online connection and allow you to appear to be playing with more precise controls than you typically could in an online fighter. It will make the online experience appear to be closer to "normal" gameplay, but the effect on offline play is that it creates these bizarre buffer inputs that screw the more precise players up.

In response, players that are more competitive and precise with their inputs will need to properly use the buffer system to their advantage. Learn to buffer escapes, attacks, grabs & combos so that you execute things more quickly. This kind of play might make online play less rewarding, but will make players more competitive in live events.

 

[Blue sHell]

I've only played 4 matches, but this became clearly obvious to me (although at the start I thought it was the controller)

I kept rolling to the side twice in a row, and kept dodging in place twice too. Although after a while I was able to control it more or less. I never had that problem you guys had of turning around when landing. I guess its because I let go of my direction at the last second before landing normally.

The control problems your having have nothing to do with this. That there actually does sound like a problem with your remote or how YOU input commands.

Even if you let go of the analog stick before you land, you will still turn around randomly if you didn't press front. Literally you could full jump and at the peak of your jump hold back for half a second, and you will turn around when you land.

 

[Card]

It's funny you bring this up.... I was actually having this discussion last night with my roommate. We've been playing Smash for a good 2 years now so we know each others play styles pretty well. He has a much more technical and "tight" style filled with wave-dashing all over and flawless L-Cancels, whereas my play style is much more graceful and "fluid" where I rely much more on proper timing and spacing as opposed to perfect movements.

But now that we got our hands on Brawl, there is a clear difference which has been shown. My roommate, whose play style has always been about very tight quick-second thoughts, feels that he is severely hindered in Smash Brawl. Myself on the other hand, whose play style is about thinking ahead and never doing quick "jerky" movements, I feel that I have even MORE control over my character than I do in Smash Melee.

Another thing both my roommate and myself have noticed, is that he trips quite often (and at the worst times) throughout a match, whereas I would trip maybe once every 3 matches, and at a time where I simply cannot be punished for doing so. I'd also like to note that I am simply better than my roommate in addition to this... I would beat him in a match of Smash Melee and Brawl probably 5 times to 1.


I don't know what I am getting at exactly by saying this... just thought it needed to be said.


It's almost as if... "Tight" Play styles are frowned upon (such as by Tripping, and Buffering) whereas "Fluid" Play styles are suggested" (again, such as by Less Tripping, and Buffering working with it).


So... I guess you can understand how I really have not had any control issues with Brawl, but on the contrary my Roommate constantly hates on the control and especially... Tripping. Personally though, Tripping doesn't bother me at all, because quite frankly it rarely happens to me. I also believe that it is NOT because I am lucky that I don't trip, but I believe it is because of the way I play compared to the way my roommate plays.



EDIT: Then again... I could just be crazy and seeing things :embarrass

 

[Chiroz]

The control problems your having have nothing to do with this. That there actually does sound like a problem with your remote or how YOU input commands.

Even if you let go of the analog stick before you land, you will still turn around randomly if you didn't press front. Literally you could full jump and at the peak of your jump hold back for half a second, and you will turn around when you land.

No because the thing is, when I dodge I smash the direction quite a few times (while still holding the shield button), which is what makes me believe this is why I was rolling twice in a row. But on my last match it didn't happen once, as I got to learn how not to smash it so many times.


The turning around when landing thing, I don't get. I don't remember once turning around, but it might be because I wasen't paying so close attention. But I imagine I would remember if it would have happened to me.



Also I would like to say, that even though I played 4 (5 stock) matches, I never tripped once, my opponent did, once. I know its really rare, but just wanted to point that out. (Maybe I am just really lucky)

 

[Hydde]

I've only played 4 matches, but this became clearly obvious to me (although at the start I thought it was the controller)

I kept rolling to the side twice in a row, and kept dodging in place twice too. Although after a while I was able to control it more or less. I never had that problem you guys had of turning around when landing. I guess its because I let go of my direction at the last second before landing normally.

i had thesame problems with the rolling... whenusing the c stick.

It seems i need more time to figure out how it works.

 

[BentoBox]

Show up to mtl bi-weeklies you! (@Card)

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

Was anyone else expecting a parody of Superdoodleman's videos when they saw the thread title?

 

[Card]

Show up to mtl bi-weeklies you! (@Card)

I thought those died >_>

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

how the ability to do moves prior to recovering make control less tight?

if anything, you dont have to compensate your inputs for recovery and can just do them outright.

ive not had problems ffing and getting crouches, nor have i had problems with turning around trying to throw a series of Bairs.

the only quirk i had was getting double capes with mario, the reason: i mash b when i do f+b habitually, once i stopped, i had no problems.

but yeah, buffering = yay

 

[Card]

how the ability to do moves prior to recovering make control less tight?

Performing a move before it actually happens is actually the definition of "Less Tight" controls...


The less delay (buffered or not) that there is from button press to activation on screen... The tighter the controls. Essentially Melee had an extremely tight control scheme, where every action performed was direct from the timing of your button press. With Brawl's "buffering" system, the control scheme is not as tight OR as fast, so its fairly obvious when playing.

 

[Eggm]

Its not detrimental to me, but its very very annoying. Tripping is ******** as well. I'm really not a fan of brawl lol.

Edit : For competitive play. Just for fun its a pretty awesome game.

 

[Brookman]

Its not detrimental to me, but its very very annoying. Tripping is ******** as well. I'm really not a fan of brawl lol.

Edit : For competitive play. Just for fun its a pretty awesome game.

Let's play melee, I'll roll a lot. :D

 

[Eggm]

I wish I want to play real bad lol. Your in CT tho right?

 

[fr0st2k]

A few weeks ago I realized Brawl had a Universal Buffer system in place and I've been physically and mentally wrestling with the purpose of its existence ever since (outside the obvious attempt of streamlining the gameplay -- which may very well be its only purpose).

Why is this not being discussed -- I can't possibly be the only person having control issues with this game because of the buffer system. There's only so much you can do to mitigate its effect on your character:



To add to this, Brawl obviously does not like Fast Falling, forcing you to duck after last moment Fast Falls, mitigating combo potential by stalling momentum (Falcon is hit hardest here IMO). Also, many buffer frames exist outside Aerials -- they're pretty prevalent throughout the game. As a result, never, for a single moment do I feel as though I have tight control over my character -- even intentions of Dashing towards my enemy arouses doubt because of Trip. Quite ridiculous.

To the people who are actually playing this game: I want to know how you feel about this issue; if it is as detrimental to you as it is to me, your guesses as to its purpose and what you're doing to mitigate its effect on your gameplay.


-Kimosabae

the only thing i got from all this trite is, "This game doesnt play like melee and im mad! Grrrr"

god ... i hate the melee community, most self absorbed, sheepish, egocentric, and most of all, , clingy, community around. Man....when are you going to realize that this ISNT melee. Its a DIFFERENT game, with DIFFERENT physics, and DIFFERENT playstyles, with DIFFERENT strategies, and DIFFERENT techniques.

In case you didnt get it .. Its DIFFERENT. Stop complaining. Its not throwing off your game....youre just trying to use your melee skill in BRAWL. Thats like if i tried to use my track experience in swimming. IT DOESNT MAKE ANY SENSE

 

[Zek]

So the problem you're talking about is that Brawl allows you to queue a command to be performed immediately after your current action is finished? Seems to me like this is something that would be an advantage once you break Melee habits, allowing you to eliminate any gaps in timing between your attacks.

 

[Brookman]

Thats like if i tried to use my track experience in swimming. IT DOESNT MAKE ANY SENSE

You obviously don't know much about swimming

edit: or good competitive video games..

 

[fr0st2k]

You obviously don't know much about swimming

edit: or good competitive video games..

actually ... i have like 50 gold medals ... like 15 plaques and way too many ribbons to say otherwise. And i placed 3rd at the junior olympics, and was coached by an olympic coach at some private school.

/brag off

but on point... running destroys your swimming muscles, and vice versa.

 

[errtu]

u are trying to play the game like melee. that is ur problem. that is why you keep tripping and have problems with this buffering system. if u keep trying to play it like that, you are gonna keep having the same problems. gotta change those habits man. only thing left to do.

 

[fr0st2k]

i agree. what da hell is that man??? sounds like ur controller is messed up. try buying a new one.

now .. im not supporting this thread, cause i think the TC is just ranting and crying because brawl isnt melee 2 like he imagined...

but,

dont you think he tried more than 1 controller? i mean really... come on

 

[Mario77]

OP, You sound like my freind when he loses... "I PRESSED Y TO JUMP BUT HE DIDN'T!"

"I DIDN'T PRESS Y, MY GUY JUST JUMPED ALL ON HIS OWN!"

Give me a break.... and I still don't know what the heck universal buffering is.... -_-

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

moves having more start up frames and more recovery is speed. thats like saying brawl is "loose" because its slower and moves have noteable recoveries now.

to me, tighness is the actual timing in relation to your actions. and buffering completely closes that gap in some situations. there is no "empty frames" between me doing a shff bair with mario into fsmash, because i can do the input before recoving, thusly having the move come out on the first possible frame.

hypothetical situation here: if you have a jab thats 2 frames, with 0 frames of recovery on block, unless you can hit your jab button 15 times a second, thats wasted frames. on that note, if you have a move you have to wait to recover, unless your timing is first frame perfect, there are wasted frames.

to me, wasted frames is loose/sloppy, where as perfectly filled out situations are more solid and tight. (reguardless of your inputs)


either or, ive been using the buffering pretty well, having no problems, doing things as quickly as possible within the confines of recovery and activation.

 

[Gr00ve]

Was anyone else expecting a parody of Superdoodleman's videos when they saw the thread title?

yes, that's why I came into this topic.

 

[Brookman]

but on point... running destroys your swimming muscles, and vice versa.

The mentality for racing is the same though, wouldn't you say?

 

[fr0st2k]

moves having more start up frames and more recovery is speed. thats like saying brawl is "loose" because its slower and moves have noteable recoveries now.

to me, tighness is the actual timing in relation to your actions. and buffering completely closes that gap in some situations. there is no "empty frames" between me doing a shff bair with mario into fsmash, because i can do the input before recoving, thusly having the move come out on the first possible frame.

hypothetical situation here: if you have a jab thats 2 frames, with 0 frames of recovery on block, unless you can hit your jab button 15 times a second, thats wasted frames. on that note, if you have a move you have to wait to recover, unless your timing is first frame perfect, there are wasted frames.

to me, wasted frames is loose/sloppy, where as perfectly filled out situations are more solid and tight. (reguardless of your inputs)


either or, ive been using the buffering pretty well, having no problems, doing things as quickly as possible within the confines of recovery and activation.

thank you for putting those complainers in their place. very well stated.

 

[errtu]

now .. im not supporting this thread, cause i think the TC is just ranting and crying because brawl isnt melee 2 like he imagined...

but,

dont you think he tried more than 1 controller? i mean really... come on

yeah man, my bad. i changed my commentary. i did not read the whole thread, only his first post and answered then i read on and changed my opinion. he is trying to play it the same way he plays melee and that is just not gonna work.

edit. for him i mean,. cause i dont have any problems with this whatsoever.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

yes, that's why I came into this topic.

I was hoping for a video showcasing things like Gimpy's walltechjumpreversewarlockpunch. lol

On-topic: I think buffering is just something we'll have to get use too. I never heard of other fighters complaining about buffering, because in the end it allows you to do a succession of moves with more precision.

 

[fr0st2k]

The mentality for racing is the same though, wouldn't you say?

yeah ... if you look at it in the most simplest of forms, such as "I must win the race"

But if you look at it as in what you have to do, they are much different. One is in the water for crying out loud...how could you even say they are similar in that respect.

and why are we arguing about this. you understood my point by using those 2 in comparison, right??? so lets leave it at that.

 

[errtu]

his problem kinda reminds of a problem i had with fifa games. i used to play this games since like forever. and i was used to shooting the ball by pressing the shooting button multiple times. then one day i go to my cousins house and he has his brand new 2000 something fifa version. we strart playing and i just dont seem to be able to shoot anymore. turns out they changed the system and u had to press the button only once. if done twice u cancelled ur shooting input. at first i was like wat da hell man!!! this sucks (kinda like the guy starting the thread) , but then u get used to it and find uses for it too.

 

[Galt]

My whole regular group noticed this very quickly upon playing Brawl. Things like accidentally doing 3-4 jumps with MetaKnight if you don't turn off up-jumping, or rolling accidentally, or turning around randomly. On the other hand, I also noticed that the buffer system seemed to help early on with my controller's problem from Melee, which is that it tends to be sensitive to left inputs and doesn't respond well to tapping right (if you want to reverse a B move in the air, for instance), but that's just a coincidental benefit, obviously.

Mostly, yes, I think the few frames you might possibly be able to save with this buffer system aren't worth the chances of accidentally rolling or turning around. But, then, the game's bad all around, and this is really among the least of its problems.

 

[fr0st2k]

My whole regular group noticed this very quickly upon playing Brawl. Things like accidentally doing 3-4 jumps with MetaKnight if you don't turn off up-jumping, or rolling accidentally, or turning around randomly. On the other hand, I also noticed that the buffer system seemed to help early on with my controller's problem from Melee, which is that it tends to be sensitive to left inputs and doesn't respond well to tapping right (if you want to reverse a B move in the air, for instance), but that's just a coincidental benefit, obviously.

Mostly, yes, I think the few frames you might possibly be able to save with this buffer system aren't worth the chances of accidentally rolling or turning around. But, then, the game's bad all around, and this is really among the least of its problems.

once again ... all i see here is , "This isnt melee2, wahhhhhhhhhhhh"

*edit, not to mention you and you friends are probably so used to melee, and so bad at adjusting, that it will probably take another month, maybe a year, until you finally realize, "oh this isnt so bad, im used to it now"

 

[Rx-]

I understand what the OP is saying.

What I don't understand is why he uses the word "mitigate" so much.

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

the only accidental rolling ive managed is from doing a fsmash too early when canceling my dash with a guard, and im not having any problems turning around accidently.

i think brawl is fun , solid and competative.

i also think once the metagame is more defined, people will chill out a bit. most people need to be told how to play competatively, and cant/dont want to put forth the effort to figure things out themselves.