Is Sonic Mid-tier material? Is he better than Bowser again? (Read the OP)

[Browny]

ugh...

this isnt a case of recovery vs recovery. look at DK, he is pretty much always going to get back to the stage whether you like it or not, but can he do it safely? same as Snake, so shouldnt their recovery be equal to Sonic's since in the end, they recover? You will end up offstage a lot more than 1 time per stock. every single time Sheik gets put offstage she is in a rather bad position and really does not have many safe options at all. this will build up considerably over time. whether its a gradual build up of % over the entire match or and early gimp KO, it should happen.

this isnt a simple +1 for sonics case where we go KO potential, speed, range, damage, movement speed, recovery, priority, projectiles etc since thats not how brawl works. Look at Lucas... hes packing all of those traits, but in almost every situation hes left with 1-2 options. and that ends up as low tier.

What im getting at is your list of advantages sheik has over sonic are similar to lucas' to an extent. you can have all those amazing attributes in one character, but if at any given time you can only use 1-2, the opponent can figure this out very quick and shut down as many options as possible which is quite easy vs the likes of MK, Snake, DDD, Marth etc.

Dont underestimate the importance of options. The SBR-B realises that options are worth a lot. take note of the trends. characters with lots of options like Sonic, IC have risen in the list while those that lack options (Wolf, G&W) drop. Suddenly the effectiveness of certain character's amazing attacks (ROB nair, wolf fsmash, ZSS sideb) becomes lessened as its no longer measured by a degree to which the character can safely abuse the attack, but how well the enemy can bait and punish in the campy nature of brawl. It just so happens that Sonic is the sort of character who is not greatly affected by these tricks since attempting to bait and punish Sonic will not work very well.

or maybe idk what im talking about lol. At any rate... Sonic has more options (NOT MIXUPS FFS, DIFFERENT THING) than Sheik i think this is obvious. The degree of their effectiveness is debatable, hopefully we could do that in this thread. At the moment, I think Sonics sheer numbers of options result in him being a better character than sheik. All thats left is how well a player can actually use every one of these options which is the hard part. Until someone can reliably do that, sheik would be the better character.

 

[Camalange]

Well, the fact that IC's hard counter Shiek and Sonic has no hard counters...

A lot of disadvantages? Yes. Soft counters? Maybe. Hard counter? No way in hell.

So imo Sonic already has a tournament viability edge over Shiek.

 

[Kinzer]

Technically, ICs have a 100:0 MU on everybody on the whole cast except themselves since they can infinite them all, lol.

 

[<π]

a bunch of bad/mediocre options is not as good as a few or even one very solid option. thats why marth is a good character, why snake is so good.

Sheik has decent kill moves that can be comboed into usmash dsmash and fsmash can all be comboed into. nair air bair and even fair are all actually viable when fresh after around 150 on most characters when sweet spotted (near the edge of course) and all of these are very vey fast and almost always impossible to punish if given the get hit or dodge option. which pops up oh so often with sheik.

off stange sheik is still sheik fast aerials give sheik very good defence aginst meta as well as good old air dodge and such. upB is invincible. Over B is rediculous.

Why am I posting here. I can't say anything thats going to be taken seriously.

this game isn't only about not getting hit, thats important, yeah but what you need to focus on is hitting without getting hit obviously if you have a projectile you win that big. characters like meta have strong spacing tools like dair or approaching tools like nado. sonic has a bunch of different way to approach but few safe pokes or spacing tools that can go unpunished.

 

[Kinzer]

Wait, wut?!

Marth and Snake or not good because they are overpowered in one field, but because they are at the very worst decent in every field of their gameplay. Take a look at Snake, his worst aspect is probably his recovery, but that doesn't hold him down to the point where it becomes a laughing stock like Link's or Olimars.

Go look at MK if you want a more extreme example, he's not balanced in every field, he's got EVERYTHING covered. His poor aerial speed, exceptional aerial acceleration, and light weight don't hold him back from being the best character game.

It may not be as great as the professionals, but being a hybrid (RPG term) helps when you can do the job to an extent and more.

I can name things too, but that just gets us in circles, which is why I'm not really bothering either.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Ok so I don't see where you were going when you brought up the matchups. Sheik has one matchup that is horrible for her. Other than that the rest of her matchups are manageable.

Trye, but as a result, that one hard counter is enough to hinder her viability greatly. Sort of how the characters in low tier were simply not viable due to how badly ***** they are.

Sheik does better vs. Marth and Wario than Sonic does.....I dunno in the grand scheme of things I think they both do fairly well as far as MU's go so I think that aspect is pretty even.

???
I thought Sonic does quite decently against both characters.
I do not recall it being a matchup worse than 6-4 against Sonic.

Oh and down-b is part of Sheiks moveset so you honestly can't just ignore the option that she has of making some of her bad matchups go away with the press of a button. S*** in fact if you want to keep bringing up Sonics' "options" Then Sheik has one of the more powerful "options" in the game. Mhm.

A character who if forced to approach, loses? I am rather critical of Zelda's capabilities except in a few matchups.

And certainly her down B should be taken into account, something I've been advocating for the longest.

TBH you guys haven't given me much to support Sonic being better than Sheik. I'm not even displaying character bias here because I would readily agree with you if this was Zelda we were discussing but...................Sheik is just better than Sonic. Not by much granted, but she is. Prove me wrong.

The main issue is primarily we would have to go based on MU's.
I do not know all the MU ratios for Sheik, but correct me if I am wrong, both characters have similar MU's overall.

The difference being that Sheik hard counters a few characters but also suffers a hard counter herself. So it balances things out.

Strictly Sheik only,I would say Sonic would be better if only because of the fact that he does not suffer a hard counter which is such a major hindrance to the character's viability.
Even if she does hard counter other characters, the fact she suffers one herself pushes her down.

I would also say that Sonic would be slightly better, in that I think unlike Sheik, he is a character that can maintain a wider range of options.
While they may not be as solid as Sheik's less amount of options, (her pressure game is nifty ^_^), it also means that he can constantly be in a position where he can avoid being dedicated and more easily deal with stupid option select behavior.

I cannot help but find it an incredible relief to be able to jump cancel my specials and avoid that IC grab, DDD CG or any other stupid move that would result in lots of pain.

Like I said you have to put Sonic above her on the tier list at this current point strictly based off of tournament placings.

I would disagree with the tournament placings as well, primarily because its really only measuring the dominance of characters. There really is no effective means of dictating a character better than another based on the tournament results.

The only reason I would think Sheik lesser than Sonic, is simply because of that hard counter. That is speaking of strictly Sheik, once you factor Zelda in, she is clearly a better character.

Which is what I say we do. Factor in Sheik/Zelda.
Its an option available to both of those characters.
Why ignore it?

@<3: Sheik's Fsmash is almost as bad as Diddy's, DI makes it so that it will never kill.

 

[<π]

ICs don't counter sheik thats a myth. the match up is in their favor but ICs are hardly a best counter.

 

[Kinzer]

Shadow, Sonic's MU with Marth and Wario or 6:4, that much is true, however if Sheik has anything better than that, even 59:41, then he/(she, lolwut?)'s right.

Whee.

 

[<π]

fsmash if used correctly can't not be DIed out of with normal human button input power and regardless it is impossible for most characters to smash DI out of a "sweet" fsmash.

 

[-Mars-]

every single time Sheik gets put offstage she is in a rather bad position and really does not have many safe options at all. this will build up considerably over time. whether its a gradual build up of % over the entire match or and early gimp KO, it should happen.

Lol no, simply no. You have to grab the ledge or else Sheik can just tether the ledge with the chain. Her tether is imo the best in the game due to it's quickness and range. She's also not completely screwed if she whiffs it as long as she still has her second jump. Unless your smart enough/fast enough to grab the ledge..........Sheik is in no trouble at all.

Even if you do grab the ledge Vanish has invincibility frames and a wind effect at the end.

Sheik is not one of those characters with no safe recovery options which is what you stated. I already gave you that Sonic has a better recovery......I don't feel that we need to discuss this anymore. All I said is that Sheik in no way has a bad recovery because......she doesn't.

She has options to avoid gimps. Chain, needles, vanish, recovering very low......all of these are options that she possesses. I have never had a person argue with me that Sheik has a bad recovery........found that pretty amusing. Anyways on to the rest of your post.

this isnt a simple +1 for sonics case where we go KO potential, speed, range, damage, movement speed, recovery, priority, projectiles etc since thats not how brawl works. Look at Lucas... hes packing all of those traits, but in almost every situation hes left with 1-2 options. and that ends up as low tier.

What im getting at is your list of advantages sheik has over sonic are similar to lucas' to an extent. you can have all those amazing attributes in one character, but if at any given time you can only use 1-2, the opponent can figure this out very quick and shut down as many options as possible which is quite easy vs the likes of MK, Snake, DDD, Marth etc.

Comparing Lucas to Sheik is just silly. Lucas has a s*** recovery......Sheik does not. Lucas has a s*** projectile......Sheik does not. Lucas has a s*** grab game......Sheik does not.

Ok let me make one thing clear. Sheik is a very versatile character. She may not be as versatile as Sonic due to the fact that he is arguably the most versatile character in the game, but she has plenty of those "options" that you like to talk about so much.

Her fast-as-f*** moveset alone gives her numerous options. Not to mention her DACUS, her camp game, her edgeguard game, and the fact that she has guaranteed grab release setups on a ton of characters. Plenty of mixups out of those things alone to keep your opponent weary and guessing.......and i'm sure I missed stuff that isn't on the top of my head right now.

Another thing. There are very few matchups where Sheik actually has to approach. This is invaluable.

Dont underestimate the importance of options. The SBR-B realises that options are worth a lot. take note of the trends. characters with lots of options like Sonic, IC have risen in the list while those that lack options (Wolf, G&W) drop. Suddenly the effectiveness of certain character's amazing attacks (ROB nair, wolf fsmash, ZSS sideb) becomes lessened as its no longer measured by a degree to which the character can safely abuse the attack, but how well the enemy can bait and punish in the campy nature of brawl. It just so happens that Sonic is the sort of character who is not greatly affected by these tricks since attempting to bait and punish Sonic will not work very well.

or maybe idk what im talking about lol. At any rate... Sonic has more options (NOT MIXUPS FFS, DIFFERENT THING) than Sheik i think this is obvious. The degree of their effectiveness is debatable, hopefully we could do that in this thread. At the moment, I think Sonics sheer numbers of options result in him being a better character than sheik. All thats left is how well a player can actually use every one of these options which is the hard part. Until someone can reliably do that, sheik would be the better character.

Believe me I don't underestimate the importance of options in this game....which is why I play Sheik.

Well, the fact that IC's hard counter Shiek and Sonic has no hard counters...

A lot of disadvantages? Yes. Soft counters? Maybe. Hard counter? No way in hell.

So imo Sonic already has a tournament viability edge over Shiek.

One of the stupidest things I have ever read on SWF. A Ice Climber main? yes. Someone playing Ice Climbers specifically to counter my Sheik? no. You can't just pick Ice Climbers randomly and get a free win.

Not to mention the fact that icies aren't common in the tournament scene anyways........oh and maybe the fact that I can just press down-b?

 

[Camalange]

One of the stupidest things I have ever read on SWF. A Ice Climber main? yes. Someone playing Ice Climbers specifically to counter my Sheik? no. You can't just pick Ice Climbers randomly and get a free win.

Why not? Oh, and I never said RANDOMLY either. I'm talking about if Shiek were to become an actual threat to winning a tournament, people (zomg including top players) could just learn to play IC's and Shiek is no longer viable. Sonic doesn't have to worry about that. We are talking about tournament viability right? Doesn't matter if a top player doesn't MAIN ICs, he could become just as good with another character as he/she is with his/her main.

I saw <3 say IC is not a hard counter, so maybe you have your facts wrong? It's a possibility you know.

Not to mention the fact that icies aren't common in the tournament scene anyways........oh and maybe the fact that I can just press down-b?

Uh, Shiek =/= Zelda?

We're talking about Shiek here.


Oh how I love these threads >_>

 

[Kinzer]

It only comes down to "CP or lose" when the MU is 100:0, otherwise there's still a chance a character should win.

Though I'm not denying that playing a 99:1 MU is just as ********, I don't think I could CP D3 if I ever felt being Gay to a Donkey Bong player and still pull off a win. At least not without a little bit of practice

...This also is a bit silly, but I am getting a feeling that Ice Climbers will become somewhat prominent in the future, I bet the AN can back me up on this when some of their players will say a good ICs (player) is one of if not the last character they would want to see. Pretty sure there might also be a couple of different regions, but I don't know/remember them.

Oh now I'm curious as to how this mechanism works, sure Zelda/Sheik are great, but if you're pressing Down-B mid-match, isn't that the same as not playing the MU at all? Or would any of you care to inform to me how exactly to play the MU? I'm listening.

 

[Camalange]

Well, when I hear Brawl and Hard Counter and Highest Levels of Play I think Unwinnable.

idk, maybe I'm ******** and don't belong in this thread.

 

[-Mars-]

Trye, but as a result, that one hard counter is enough to hinder her viability greatly. Sort of how the characters in low tier were simply not viable due to how badly ***** they are.

Sheik has ONE hard counter. ROB has a hard counter, Marth has a hard counter, DK has several hard counters........see where i'm going with this Shadow? One hard counter does not equal a character having bad matchups.

Seeing that she has more FAVORABLE matchups than Sonic bodes well for my case.

A character who if forced to approach, loses? I am rather critical of Zelda's capabilities except in a few matchups.

Believe it or not I am under the impression that the Ice Climbers cannot camp Zelda. Blizzard and Ice Blocks are free Dins hits. One of the few matchups where I would actually bother to use Dins....primarily due to Nana being an idiot.

And certainly her down B should be taken into account, something I've been advocating for the longest.

I like this man.

The main issue is primarily we would have to go based on MU's.
I do not know all the MU ratios for Sheik, but correct me if I am wrong, both characters have similar MU's overall.

The difference being that Sheik hard counters a few characters but also suffers a hard counter herself. So it balances things out.

Strictly Sheik only,I would say Sonic would be better if only because of the fact that he does not suffer a hard counter which is such a major hindrance to the character's viability.
Even if she does hard counter other characters, the fact she suffers one herself pushes her down.

By that logic DK, Marth, ROB, Fox, G&W, and Wolf would all be lower then what they currently are.

I would also say that Sonic would be slightly better, in that I think unlike Sheik, he is a character that can maintain a wider range of options.
While they may not be as solid as Sheik's less amount of options, (her pressure game is nifty ^_^), it also means that he can constantly be in a position where he can avoid being dedicated and more easily deal with stupid option select behavior.

I cannot help but find it an incredible relief to be able to jump cancel my specials and avoid that IC grab, DDD CG or any other stupid move that would result in lots of pain.


I would disagree with the tournament placings as well, primarily because its really only measuring the dominance of characters. There really is no effective means of dictating a character better than another based on the tournament results.

The only reason I would think Sheik lesser than Sonic, is simply because of that hard counter. That is speaking of strictly Sheik, once you factor Zelda in, she is clearly a better character.

Which is what I say we do. Factor in Sheik/Zelda.
Its an option available to both of those characters.
Why ignore it?

I respect your opinion Shadow because you always come with some good material.....but I disagree with you on this one. I already went over Sheiks plethora of options. She doesn't have to commit to moves, she can retreat effectively when she needs to, and she camps like a b****.

I agree. Down b is a part of Sheiks moveset. You can't just say that doesn't matter because we're discussing Sheik......but at any time during the match if I feel like it I can press down b. That's one of Sheiks moves.

@<3: Sheik's Fsmash is almost as bad as Diddy's, DI makes it so that it will never kill.[/QUOTE]

Why not? Oh, and I never said RANDOMLY either. I'm talking about if Shiek were to become an actual threat to winning a tournament, people (zomg including top players) could just learn to play IC's and Shiek is no longer viable. Sonic doesn't have to worry about that. We are talking about tournament viability right? Doesn't matter if a top player doesn't MAIN ICs, he could become just as good with another character as he/she is with his/her main.

I saw <3 say IC is not a hard counter, so maybe you have your facts wrong? It's a possibility you know.



Uh, Shiek =/= Zelda?

We're talking about Shiek here.


Oh how I love these threads >_>

Once again. This would make G&W, ROB, DK, and Marth all not tournament viable.

<3 has one of the more optomistic Sheik outlooks that you will come across. Listen to him if you want but it only supports my case for Sheik even more.

Last time I checked Sheik had a down b move? <_<

Oh how I love these threads.

 

[Camalange]

Last time I checked Sheik had a down b move? <_<

I'm also well aware that Shiek and Zelda are both considered seperate characters...we have Shiek, Zelda, and Shiek/Zelda.

The OP has Shiek, not Shiek/Zelda or Zelda, so...

Unless this is how we want to roll, I honestly don't care, I'm done with this thread. No one agrees on anything and we all get migrains. To top it all off, at the end of the day, Sonic beats Shiek tournament placing wise.

Oh how I love these threads ;D

 

[Kinzer]

I'm beginning to think I'm on a couple of peoples' ignore list (not that it would really make me sad, lol).

Or my reply/question/whatever wasn't really important/on-topic to respond to, let me try this.

Aren't some characters only viable maybe because the community doesn't want to or need to focus on some characters weaknesses? Either that or something is wrong the MU ratio/s, but anyway:

Look at Marth. Assuming enough correct research has been done, he has overall great matchups against the entire cast save for MK and Snake, who happen to be borderline hard-counter/soft-counter respectively. Granted there is still a chance Marth can pull of a win with these generated ratios, it's still not looking very bright for him, yet whenever he comes across any other opponent, formidable or otherwise, he can make ends meet. Now while that certainly helps his position when it comes to getting around with the whole cast included in the equation, I am willing to bet he would fall drastically if everybody suddenly were to pick up MK and get very good to the point where they can make that Ratio true.

Yay/Nay?

 

[Allied]

Your all fools

 

[Camalange]

Your all fools

^ is tru

 

[Kinzer]

No U!

 

[<π]

Overoptimistic, XD.

I call it like I see it. I play this game with top players near daily so I see a lot. And as a sheik main with tons of IC experience I'm far from convinced that match up in so far in ICs I spare my thought on the match up for when I go against what everyone else thinks in our match up thread... but I digress.

Sheik is significantly better than what you see with the majority of the current sheik community. They don't understand how to approach a lot of the match ups or even smaller things like how our hit boxes work like fsmashes for example, reverse nair, bair's sweet spot within a sweet spot, uair's disjointed hitbox, pivot grab, ect.

In my opinion sheik right now should easily be high A teir near Martha. Great match ups against top teir characters, snake, d3, wario, diddy, falco. I've done very well in these match ups. to the point where I'm convinced they are all even if not in sheik's favor. even meta I'm not worried about anymore especially with grab release to death on a defino and castle. and grab release dacus in general.

And like I mentioned before far from a counter in the ICs or pika for that matter. I'd definitely go sheik first match verus ICs in part because of how little they, IC mains, seem to understand how difficult the match up can be.

 

[-Mars-]

Oh and for those of you questioning Sheiks "viabilty".........Armada got 17th at genesis.

 

[Browny]

Sheik is significantly better than what you see with the majority of the current sheik community. They don't understand how to approach a lot of the match ups or even smaller things like how our hit boxes work like fsmashes for example, reverse nair, bair's sweet spot within a sweet spot, uair's disjointed hitbox, pivot grab, ect.

here lies the problem. you claim sheik is better than currently peceived because the players are not using her correctly. Sonic mains have proven that the perceived playstyle (spam sideb) is not how he really plays, so they begin to use a whole range of fake-outs and other moves in how he should be used properly, reflected in tourney results and similarly the tier list.

At the moment it would seem the bar has been set by Sonic here, hes proven his case, its up to sheik mains to prove they are better. Talk about hidden potential in movesets is quite worthless unless we talk about footstool combos and similar things. Sheik has her trump cards with the ftilt-usmash combos and chain/needle gimping shenanigans, its up to you guys to prove (on a consistant basis) just how much they are worth

 

[-Mars-]

Armada got 17th at Genesis. I think that proves a lot don't you?

 

[Chis]

Down B will not be considered as her moveset. Check the OP, we've already discussed Zelda as another character.

^ is tru

No U!

Don't reply to people like this and fill up this thread with that kind of junk. Use the report button.

Oh and for those of you questioning Sheiks "viabilty".........Armada got 17th at genesis.

One tourney result doesn't really prove anything unless it's consistant.

 

[-Mars-]

Sorry for the double post

 

[-Mars-]

One tourney result doesn't really prove anything unless it's consistant.

When it takes place at the most significant tournament in Brawl's history to date then yes it does.

Oh and yea I forgot i'm not allowed to press down b when i'm playing Ice Climbers because it's not part of my moveset.

 

[Browny]

Attempt at humour noted

I quite clearly stated 'consistant', its why diddy shoots up in the tier list and G&W drops

 

[-Mars-]

Attempt at humour noted

I quite clearly stated 'consistant', its why diddy shoots up in the tier list and G&W drops

Even so, it proves that we're not BS'ing when we tell people how good Sheik is. At the largest Brawl tournament in history.....a Sheik main placed in the top 20 even with a hard counter.

I'm pretty much done in this thread. I've stated my arguments pretty well for the most part and most of my arguments weren't met with anything substantial enough to disprove my statements. See ya guys nice debating with ya.

 

[Chis]

Marsulas, I clearly said consistant. This thread is talking about Sheik as single char.

I'm pretty much done in this thread. I've stated my arguments pretty well for the most part and most of my arguments weren't met with anything substantial enough to disprove my statements. See ya guys nice debating with ya.

w/e Seems you're leaving because people aren't agreeing with your opinion which happens or/and you can't prove your point.

 

[Kinzer]

I keep trying to bring up points, but I'm just ignored... I should just leave too huh?

Ah but seriously we should all relax a little, this ought to help:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0xyv7_Zobo

 

[Kitamerby]

Sheik is not one of those characters with no safe recovery options which is what you stated. I already gave you that Sonic has a better recovery......I don't feel that we need to discuss this anymore. All I said is that Sheik in no way has a bad recovery because......she doesn't.

She has options to avoid gimps. Chain, needles, vanish, recovering very low......all of these are options that she possesses. I have never had a person argue with me that Sheik has a bad recovery........found that pretty amusing. Anyways on to the rest of your post.

In all honesty, I've never heard someone call Sheik's recovery good. Pitiful airspeed + ridiculous fastfalliness = bad distance, coupled with a horrible horizontal recovery distance, plus absolutely no way to ward off edgehoggers, no real air control after the up B, 7 years of landing lag if you somehow make it to the stage. I guess her tether is good, but even that has its severe limits.

Comparing Lucas to Sheik is just silly. Lucas has a s*** recovery......Sheik does not.

I found it hilarious that anyone could say that Lucas has a bad recovery, and that Sheik does not without being a troll, sorry.

One of the stupidest things I have ever read on SWF. A Ice Climber main? yes. Someone playing Ice Climbers specifically to counter my Sheik? no. You can't just pick Ice Climbers randomly and get a free win.

I've always believed that this idea was rather silly. Most players I've noticed stick to a single main or a main and a secondary or two and keep it at that, however, I've noticed quite a few like Ice Climbers as one of them simply because they're good. You shouldn't think of this as people picking up Icies randomly to counter sheik, but just many people keeping a sort of "pocket Icies" just in case one of their **** matchups comes along, if they aren't already using them as a main.

Sheik has ONE hard counter. ROB has a hard counter, Marth has a hard counter, DK has several hard counters........see where i'm going with this Shadow? One hard counter does not equal a character having bad matchups.

Marth doesn't have a hard counter. MK isn't THAT bad for Marth. Also, ROB and DK have several good matchups where it counts, although DK is pretty far down the list.

Seeing that she has more FAVORABLE matchups than Sonic bodes well for my case.

DK has more favorable matchups than some of the characters above him, yet the fact that he gets so horribly f*cked over by other guys brings him down. You need a nice blend of advantages and disadvantages, or you should have a character with mostly evenish matchups down the line. Sheik's the character with radically different matchups while Sonic's is more even.

By that logic DK, Marth, ROB, Fox, G&W, and Wolf would all be lower then what they currently are.

Last I checked DK has been horribly dropping with each tier list, as has GnW and ROB, Marth isn't that bad of a matchup and ***** almost the entirety of the rest of the cast, Fox is somehow mid tier, and Wolf is below Fox.

I agree. Down b is a part of Sheiks moveset. You can't just say that doesn't matter because we're discussing Sheik......but at any time during the match if I feel like it I can press down b. That's one of Sheiks moves.

*thinks that MK has a better downB than sheik*

Once again. This would make G&W, ROB, DK, and Marth all not tournament viable.

Last I checked, DK ISN'T tournament viable, ROB isn't really all that tournament viable anyways (And doesn't seem to be performing all that amazingly anyways), and neither GnW nor Marth actually lose that badly iirc. I've heard M2K and MikeHAZE both say that MK-Marth is 6:4, for example.

Last time I checked Sheik had a down b move? <_<

In all honesty, Meta Knight has a better DownB move than sheik imo.

At least his move doesn't set you up for a free Falcon punch and make you drop three tiers.

Armada got 17th at Genesis. I think that proves a lot don't you?

From his bracket, he beat Shadowfield, Fly Amanita, and f0cus, but then lost to UTD Zac and Bardull.

I'm honestly curious how he beat Fly Amanita (ICs main iirc), but all in all, his bracket didn't seem that impressive for the guy who got #2 in Melee. Especially once you consider that Armada may have just been a good player and won simply because he played smarter than the other players, AKA the Azen factor.

Hell, I've seen Ally's Falcon take out Tyrant's Wario in practice matches in which both players went all out. Does that mean Falcon should go up on the list?

I bet if Armada went Sonic he would've beaten UTD Zac lol.

 

[Kataefi]

About sheik's up b on the stage... she can land laglessly from the correct height. Horizontal coverage isn't much of a problem either when the chain reaches far. It's 9 frames to grab the ledge, which is pretty solid considering characters take longer to grab the ledge anyways. If you're DIing well enough to aim for the upmost corners of the stage, you'll rarely be edgehogged as sheik imo.

Boost transformations tend to take away free falcon punches, some stages also help... and though she drops 3 places (if tiers are part of playstyle), she gains a lot of OHKO options - this can be a good trade

 

[Kinzer]

Ugh, I get an infraction for the last post, though I somewhat deserved it, I guess I failed when I tried to say that leaving a thread because people either don't address your points or agree with you is childish. Considering that if people don't address your points that must mean that nobody can deny you, so this would be a GOOD thing!

Now can I at least have somebody respond to my posts, even if it's out of pity or they are one-liners? I know that I've been a bit stupid with a couple of them, and the substance in some of them is vague, but it's still there and I would like to see what somebody/anybody else would have to say about them.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Sheik has ONE hard counter. ROB has a hard counter, Marth has a hard counter, DK has several hard counters........see where i'm going with this Shadow? One hard counter does not equal a character having bad matchups.

Except I said no such thing. i said that a hard counter hurts the viability of the character tremendously and thus, knocks them down severely.
Marth does not have a ahrd counter. hard counters are generally 7-3 and currently, the matchup with MK is 65:35, just 5 points off from being terrible.


DDD, DK and ROB are characters who should fall down because of the fact that they are hard countered so badly, even more so Dk than the others. So your reasoning means little becausse in each case, all those characters suffer a tremendous blow to their viability, their potential cannot truly be realized since it only takes one character to really shut down their game.

Seeing that she has more FAVORABLE matchups than Sonic bodes well for my case.

Except its offset by that hard counter Marsula.
It is simil;ar to the issue with Samus. She is heavy, but she has such a hard time killing that her ability to survive to high percents is nullified.

Believe it or not I am under the impression that the Ice Climbers cannot camp Zelda. Blizzard and Ice Blocks are free Dins hits. One of the few matchups where I would actually bother to use Dins....primarily due to Nana being an idiot.

I agree with this whole heartedly. Hence why i really feel down b should be factored, its very useful in fighting those bad matchups.

I like this man.

^_^
I try.

By that logic DK, Marth, ROB, Fox, G&W, and Wolf would all be lower then what they currently are.

I disagree concerning Marth mainly cause t isnt a hard counter yet, as in its not 7-3/
in regards to the other characters though? YES.
They really should fall down and the only reason they have remained up there, is, I don't know. It's rather mind boggling.

I respect your opinion Shadow because you always come with some good material.....but I disagree with you on this one. I already went over Sheiks plethora of options. She doesn't have to commit to moves, she can retreat effectively when she needs to, and she camps like a b****.

This is very rtue, what I mean thouhg is say you're facing the IC's. Sonic does well against them even thuogh he lacks the needles because he is never committed. he can hit their shield and never fear the grab because he can jump cancel .

So he is able to avoid more things when he approaches the opponent.

i do think Sheik has better pressuring options with the chain, needles and other options, but I feel Sonic's tend to be safer even though they may not be as rewarding as Sheik's.
Do you agree to that?

I agree. Down b is a part of Sheiks moveset. You can't just say that doesn't matter because we're discussing Sheik......but at any time during the match if I feel like it I can press down b. That's one of Sheiks moves.

<3 you

Once again. This would make G&W, ROB, DK, and Marth all not tournament viable.

Eh you know my opinion on Marth. Concerning the other characters, yes.

Frankly all those characters should drop down because of that hard counter.

<3 has one of the more optomistic Sheik outlooks that you will come across. Listen to him if you want but it only supports my case for Sheik even more.

Last time I checked Sheik had a down b move? <_<

Oh how I love these threads.

fsmash if used correctly can't not be DIed out of with normal human button input power and regardless it is impossible for most characters to smash DI out of a "sweet" fsmash.

Can you provide a video showing how it cannot be DI'ed out of? In every case where I have been struck by it, DI has allow me to avoid it, even more easily with SDI.

Armada got 17th at Genesis. I think that proves a lot don't you?

has it been done consistently though? If not, it could be claimed as an exception to the rule.
Also, its hard to use tournament results unless we have brackets in order to prove he played high level players along the way.


Ah wait you've left =(

 

[Zankoku]

A couple things... Armada picked Ice Climbers against Zac, I think, and Meta Knight against Fly Amanita. Sheik's fsmash is really weird in that the first hit has set knockback but that set knockback varies based on WHAT PART of the leg hits you, giving the illusion that you DI'd out of the second hit when in reality it was just poor spacing on the Sheik's part.

Sheik's Vanish recovery has zero landing lag at the proper height.

 

[Camalange]

Oh and yea I forgot i'm not allowed to press down b when i'm playing Ice Climbers because it's not part of my moveset.

Sorry to interrupt discussions guys, but I did some research into this...

I went onto training mode, picking the character "Zelda". It just so happened there was a character standing right by her side...I think it was a dude. Either way I just went into training mode against an Ice Climbers (on Final Destination, it's the only stage I play) and decided to look into this "down b" thing.

After about 30 minutes I realized you had to hit Down and B at the same time. Whoops. Then...idk wtf happened, but she just...disapeared for a second, and out came that dude!!!11!

It was crazy. It was like a completely new character with a whole different moveset!

Then I was curious...does everyone do this???? Do these Ice Climbers guize turn to 2 ninjas? I had to find out.

I put the computer on control. After mastering the hitting down on the joystick and B button at the same time shenanigan, I...I was quite unimpressed. All they did was shoot Icy stuff together -_-

So here's my conclusion. When Ice Climbers use Down B, they don't change into a whole nother character with an entirely different moveset. Shiek and Zelda are two seperate characters who can be changed in mid-battle, but one of them (being Zelda) has already been discussed, so I believe Shiek is the only character in question, especially since it's just her name in the OP.

O_O'

 

[Tristan_win]

Sorry to interrupt discussions guys, but I did some research into this...

I went onto training mode, picking the character "Zelda". It just so happened there was a character standing right by her side...I think it was a dude. Either way I just went into training mode against an Ice Climbers (on Final Destination, it's the only stage I play) and decided to look into this "down b" thing.

After about 30 minutes I realized you had to hit Down and B at the same time. Whoops. Then...idk wtf happened, but she just...disapeared for a second, and out came that dude!!!11!

It was crazy. It was like a completely new character with a whole different moveset!

Then I was curious...does everyone do this???? Do these Ice Climbers guize turn to 2 ninjas? I had to find out.

I put the computer on control. After mastering the hitting down on the joystick and B button at the same time shenanigan, I...I was quite unimpressed. All they did was shoot Icy stuff together -_-

So here's my conclusion. When Ice Climbers use Down B, they don't change into a whole nother character with an entirely different moveset. Shiek and Zelda are two seperate characters who can be changed in mid-battle, but one of them (being Zelda) has already been discussed, so I believe Shiek is the only character in question, especially since it's just her name in the OP.

O_O'

>_>

Funny.

Anyways the reason why some people are pushing to have Sheik and Zelda discus together is because that's a acceptable style in how the character is used. Not all of us use Zelda with Sheik myself included but even so I recognize the advantages the transformation can bring.

Like sheik dacus, chain, and even needle's they are all options sheik have to use and Zelda is no different. Yes, it makes talking about the match up much more difficulty and yes, you didn't need to talk about Sheik when you discus Zelda but that's because it's not practice so largely or thought so highly.

By talking just about Sheik you are removing her last trump card, limiting what style the sheik player can use, and give people room to argue that Sheik/Zelda as a character needs to be discussed as well.

 

[Tenki]

^

Sheik-->Zelda is a much more common transformation I see than a Zelda-->Sheik, so it makes sense.

However, I believe the OP wants to discuss the characters separately for now, then maybe a SheikZelda combination later on.

 

[Camalange]

By talking just about Sheik you are removing her last trump card, limiting what style the sheik player can use, and give people room to argue that Sheik/Zelda as a character needs to be discussed as well.

Trust me, I'm well aware of that. I don't mean to just make that post to be an *** (okay maybe a little bit). Just making a point that we are currently discussing Solo Shiek, had previously discussed Solo Zelda, and will most likely get around to discussing Shiek/Zelda.

Shiek/Zelda currently is not the topic at hand, and considering on the tierlist they don't even have a Shiek/Zelda option (which I disagree with) we have to get our priorities in line, meaning discussing just Shiek and just Zelda is the most logical decision since the tierlist is formatted the same way, and this is a tier list discussion in relation to Sonic...cuz I think most of us can agree that...

Shiek/Zelda > Sonic

 

[Tenki]

though, if we're not going to do a Sheik/Zelda discussion, it might as well be done with the Sheik discussion, because, like I said, you're going to see alot more Sheik--->Zelda transformations than Zelda--->Sheik ones.