Ivysaur Tactical Discussion

[Trip.]

Hmm... Why does zero suit samus get to use her teather more than once in the air, but not ivysaur?

Because Sakurai hates us all.

 

[Griffard]

after ledge dropping and re-tethering 3 times, you can still double jump and up B and go well above the stage which is weird. probably doesn't help but whatevs. also, ivysaur is my fave of the 3

 

[Retro Gaming]

So guys Ivysaur can grab Metaknight out of Mach Tornado.

Discuss.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

and charizard cant???... .. anyway, another good use for ivys grab game

 

[Retro Gaming]

I hate just posting random facts in these topics to keep them alive. =(

If Razor Leaf hits a slant (I'm looking at the one in the Halberd platform) it will follow its curve.

So obvious.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

dont look at me i always post something when you post those random stuff, btw, that one was too random XD... btw, steeler said something about ivys running grab having surpresive range, can someone test that???

 

[Hydde]

I dont know if someone has notcied... but i would like to know why this happens:
Sometimes when u do a down air with ivy.... he does the attack but also continue falling with the momentum, when this move was designed to stop ur momentum most of the time.
I think it has to do with pressin down the moment u do the move but i have not tested it.

Maybe this has something to do with charizard´s glide. I dont know if u have noticed but if u press down after the initial frames of the glide animation, ull fall pretty quick , making u able to hit enemies that were in front of you with glide attack.

 

[TheFast]

Stool-hop --> down-air = perfect spike

 

[PltnmNgl]

Thank you. I've been trying to figure out new things for Ivy's gimp game.

 

[Hydde]

ill give a tip, use it wisely because is maybe my personal favorite with ivy.

When u have someone cornered with ivysaur (near the edge)...sometimes people tend to full jump or short hop. In this case i usually do a short hop towards them and instantly do and up air (with the c stick) and right away the explotion takes place, DI back to distance urself in case of fail.
Its great to kill people in high %..because the maneuver is so ortodox that no one expects it. This also works in any part of the stage with people who likes to short hop a lot.

This attack executes extremely fast and it covers some considerable area.

I was fighting online today with a dk and a wario..and in some ocations, wario did his "karate kick" move and it collided with the up air, pausing the game a little....and wario was the loser in the collition.-.... it seems it even nullifies some attacks in the air because is so strong. Tired of those "short hop-fair" spammers like ike for example?, make them think twice before doing it with this crazy move!!.

Let me remind you that this move must be excecuted with pure instinct (anticipation of the enemy´s move), because the thing is to make it so fast the enemy doesnt expects it, is not something u calculate. So there is always the risk that the opponent simply does nothing and ull have some landing lag..... take this in consideration.

But the rewards are great!. Specially if u cant get the killing blow with ivy, which usually happens.

 

[PltnmNgl]

I'm thinking about doing an thread about Ivysaur's gimp game. He's pretty much the only character that doesn't necessarily have one. Granted, Ivy's tools aren't much, but they must mean something...

 

[Retro Gaming]

His gimp game can work, but its very difficult to pull off effectively and safetly. Nair is very important to it, and so is Bair.

 

[Steeler]

yeah i ****ing suck at gimping safely. i am way more effectively killing myself than my opponent.

 

[Retro Gaming]

I landed this the other day, and I like it as a kill move. I just hope it wasn't a fluke and this can be done:

Nair like you're setting up for Bullet Seed, fox-trot at your opponent and dash attack.

 

[PltnmNgl]

Dash attack is a really under-appreciated kill move.

Anyway, Gimpyfish's gameplay video inspired me to figure out Ivy's edge game.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Want to direct me in the direction of this video g'sir?

 

[Adriel]

Ivysaur can use D-air to gimp, spike or even kill near the edge. It's a very unsafe move, but Ivy's D-air does have some pretty nice horizontal knockback.

 

[Toby.]

The tether is a really good way to stop the opponent whilst staying safe. As Onxy mentioned a while ago, you can use it right after running off the edge to pop up into the air for a while. In practise it extends your invincibility frames quite a bit.

Depending on who you are facing, a running razor leaf to nair/fair/ bair can work, though it's risky.

I've also played around with jumping out, baiting an airdodge and using u-air. Easier to kill with, but runs the (high) risk of getting you edguarded. You also need to do it pretty high up so that you dont get pushed below vine whip's recovery range.

Typically, a bair wall-> tether is the safest. It just takes a long, long time to push them out of recovery range.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Dtilt is like G & W's Dtilt but more punishable. Try it near the ledge of Yoshi's Island (Brawl) to see what I mean.

 

[Steeler]

this is a question that's been on my mind a while but i haven't bothered to check

which as more range, ftilt or dtilt? it doesn't really matter since you can follow up more with ftilt and its a generally better move regardless, but...i've been wondering.

 

[Toby.]

I've always thought that dtilt had the longest range, but I'm not sure why.

EDIT: Turns out ftilt has more range. That forward lunge is deceptively long.

On another note, ivysaur doesn't quite move back to her original position after using ftilt. So you can slooowly creep forward with it. Note very useful.

I think you can also do it on an edge and she will pull back past your starting point. I could be wrong about that, though.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Dtilt's hitbox lingers for a while, and I think it might beat Ftilt by like the smallest bit. Either way, Dtilt's primary use is resetting spacing if they get too close. You can't follow up like with Ftilt.

Like you said.

 

[Toby.]

I double checked the range of both and whether or not you pull away from the edge after ftilt.

Ftilt is definitely longer than dtilt. Ivysaur definitely moves back past her starting point when doing an edge ftilt, as well.

Useless?

 

[PltnmNgl]

Want to direct me in the direction of this video g'sir?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOeIo3InPLU

It's actually a sheik video, but it inspired me to figure out ways to gimp with Ivy. Before he switched mains, Sheiks were stuck in their ways, thinking that Sheik is only good at racking up damage and using awkward kill moves. I feel this could parallel with Ivysaur.

In addition, looking at the "rise" of sheik lately, I'm thinking of starting each game with squirtle unless I know the other two can handle the opponent. At first, I always started with Ivy, but that may not do with the speed of the game continuing to rise.

 

[Onxy]

Ivy's Dtilt usless? Yeah right, that thing is so quick; it works far better than ftilt in close quarters, because they always end up DI'ing behind you with Ftilt.

I always start with Squirtle; bad match up or not. It's also far easier to manage matchups that way too.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

ivys dtilt is far from useless, its one of my favorite spacing attacks on all the game, and with ivy sometimes its better keep your oponents at distance, instead of keep them close even if you are trying to string some attacks

 

[PltnmNgl]

So how many people utilize the footstool spike off stage?

 

[Toby.]

I wasn't saying that dtilt is useless. I was talking about moving away from an edge with ftilt.

 

[Bestiarius]

OK, I may be wrong, but Ivy is a powerhouse if used correctly.
Allow me to explain:
I vy can easily camp against any character without projectiles. Razor Leaf spam can be used to apply pressure, then, when they try to approach, Ivy can cover nearly every angle of entry. Low, d-tilt. Mid-low, jab combo. A little higher, Vine Whip. Vertical or close to it, Bullet Seed. If they manage to get past all of this, Bullet Seed is a great in-close punisher. F-smash and f-tilt are great for pushing opponents back. If you can get them off the edge, b-air spam works great, but, for change of pace, doing a jab combo from the stage onto the sweet spot of the edge is a great way to rack up damage. I fthye don't get knocked off, grab them. U-throw to Bullet Seed works great. Ivy is all about racking up damage, so use her and if she just can't get you a kill, use Zard.

 

[Toby.]

I've been thinking about ivysaur's grab game lately, specifically her pivot grab. It appears to be much, much shorter than her standing grab, which is a point of lament which came up a short while ago.

Thing is, we all know that ivysaur's grab range is highly misleading in that the tips of her vines don't actually grab the opponent. This does not occur with the pivot grab. In fact, the pivot grab is a very similar in length to her standing grab as far as I can tell. It just appears to be shorter because the vines are thinner, quicker, and lack the misleading tips of her standing grab.

Now, I have a lot of trouble believing this as it is, simply because the grab appears so short compared to her normal grab. It certainly felt like it was a very similar distance, though. Could some people double check this for me?

Given that her pivot grab is very fast, having a similar reach to the standing one would be very useful.

 

[Onxy]

I tested it just now. It's practially the same range believe it or not.

Edit: Did a few more tests. It's not around the same range... It is the same range

 

[Retro Gaming]

I think it is actually slightly shorter, but not by as much as it seems. I can't ever seem to incorporate it into my gameplay.

Edit: Now that I think of it, it may seem shorter because I'm moving away while grabbing, instead of moving forward, shield canceling, and grabbing someone.

 

[Miles.]

Ivys dashing grab is growing on me the more I use it.

Ian (Itburns) was landing in a lot on me and got me to start using it more.

 

[Onxy]

No, it is the same, believe me.

 

[Retro Gaming]

I edited after that reply. Regardless, we should see if we can get some progress with it. Yoshi and Olimar use pivots pretty often, but I don't really understand it so much. Maybe some input from them can tell us how useful Ivysaur's pivot grab would be?

 

[Onxy]

I edited after that reply. Regardless, we should see if we can get some progress with it. Yoshi and Olimar use pivots pretty often, but I don't really understand it so much. Maybe some input from them can tell us how useful Ivysaur's pivot grab would be?

Meh, they wouldn't know unless they actually use Ivy. That's like asking how useful Charizard would be on the Bowser board, lol.

 

[Retro Gaming]

What I meant was for them to take Ivysaur into Training mode and try its pivot grab however it is that those characters would normally use it, and then compare it to their own respective pivot grabs. And tell us how it compares.

Yeah, maybe we should do it backwards. Someone around here try and learn what to do.

 

[Toby.]

Well I'm glad that I'm not crazy. This makes Ivysaur's grab game far less punishable than it was before. We should definitely invest some time into exploring what we can do with it. Talking to the yoshi and olimar mains is a good idea, retro.

At the very least its going to make her defensive game even better than it was before. Retreating pivot grab -> back throw off stage is looking great already.

Woo for ivysaur!

Edit: This edit wasn't needed at all.

 

[Retro Gaming]

That's exactly what I meant. But I wanted them to take Ivysaur into training mode for just a few minutes and see how the range/speed compare, and tell us, just briefly, how useful they think it would be. Approximately.

 

[Toby.]

Sounds good. It'll be nice to have an opinion that is possibly a little more neutral than that of Ivysaur players.