da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
This thread is basically my answer to this quote
But first off, a disclaimer...
Boxob has told me that im getting a big ego as of late, so i just want it to be known that just because i say KID AT doesnt mean that im claiming ownership or creation of these in anyway. Im basically taking a few things that werent known to everybody, making them known to everyone, and giving them practical uses as well. as a matter of fact one of the KID ATs that i will get to is named after somebody else.
some of the stuff is created by me, but saying KID AT #420 is just a way of me keeping them in order in the context of this thread
Now, down to business
KID AT #1!!
instant SpinDash Jump
Instant SpinDash Jump is the process of charging Down B and c sticking either up or forward to fly through the air, similarly to a spinshot. A good example of this move in action and one of the practical uses for it is in JBs second vid, Acceleromaniac http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL6HKOwO2eA at 6:17
From now on, I will be refering to this as iSDJ.
Now, that being said, iSDJ is superior to spinshot in almost EVERY CONCEIVABLE WAY.
Spinshot is lower to the ground, and slightly faster moving through the air, and can be performed in the air.
however iSDJ is easier to pull off (charge down b and at anytime, hit up on c stick) HAS A HITBOX, and most importantly, RETAINS YOUR DOUBLE JUMP.
Its better, learn to use it, it combos into f-air. You can do it off the stage into a down air, and still be able to recover, i gimped a DK doing this yesterday.
KID AT #2!!!!
Jab locks!
We know them, we love them, we hate the work that it takes to pull one off with sonic.
But ive discovered at least one new way to jab lock effectively.
1. we all know the basic jab lock setup: Side b hop to facejump, to spring to AC down air. but A slightly easier, slightly less effective way of pulling that off is:
side b hop to facejump, TO IMMEDIATE DOWN AIR, to buffered turnaround jab.
I got this idea from playing kirks ike, one of his best moves was, spot dodge, and in the dodge, he would buffer a turnaround jab. and since ike has the best jab in the game, that move is effective. so i thought of how to use this for sonic, and i came up with this. Now since you are down airing right after the Facejump, the lag might give the opponent the time to roll out, but if they dont, this does work! I also took note of the ganon matchup discussion when one of them said how integral the buffering system is to ganons playstyle. so i used that in this as well. And even if you dont pull this off correctly, its still a free down air, and we always take free damage...
2. By far, the most simple combo ive ever seen. For this, I thought about how the fact that screech stops allow you to do any move so quickly and tried to put it to better use.
Jab combo to run to screech stop, to jab lock.
Ive noticed that on silly hits like these, teching isnt the first thing on peoples minds. So at HIGHLY VARYING PERCENTS, this will work. I did this to a ganon yesterday at 70%. so im guessing this can go all the way from 70% on super heavys like ganon, to as low as possibly 20% for jigglypuff
KID AT #3!!
Ledgeshooting.
I got the idea from this move, from trying to replicate a move that was done on accident at 1:28 in JB's sonic video. For those of you that missed it, or want to see it again...
This move is good to punish long range edgeguarders. If Marth tries to block you from the stage, and tries to charge forward smash from max range, you can drop off, ledgeshoot and be within down tilt range of him. Im not completely positive on that one, but im pretty sure.
An alternate, easier way to perform this, is to drop from the ledge, side b normally and after the release, jump adn hold forward. Its slower, doesnt give you as much momentum, and doesnt put you as far on the stage. So its much easier, but not as effective
KID AT #4!!
OoSiDA!
I thought of this when I talked to Jesiah after he came back from C3, he said that people in our area dont punish people well enough. I also noticed that people were looking up frame data on MK and concluding that he is supposedly much more punishable than we thought. So I thought that being the fastest person in the game would be able to do something good with this information.
I am going to let tenki explain the basics of it.
From the Ganon matchup discussion:
When buffered Out of Shield as a counter attack this move becomes **** tier.
It is fast enough and ranged enough to punished perfectly spaced Snake F-tilt and a perfectly spaced MK down-smash. This move is amazing and needs to be used enough to be a factor in matchup discussions. This move single handedly makes sonic one of the best punishers in the game
A quick aside:
Starting with AT #4 and 5, you will notice that these moves are becoming more and more dependant on the other player. This means that some things will have to take place before these moves are even applicable.
1. You as a player will probably have to take your prediction game to the next level.
and 2. Both you and your opponent have to be on a pretty high level of play. note the parentheses in the thread title.
With that out of the way...
KID AT #5!!
The Anthinus Combo!
Now I realise that this is neither new, nor unknown, but just roll with me for a sec here.
I advise everyone to refamiliarize themselves with the anthinus combo by watching his vid. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4GGuRDQShw) And for all my intents and purposes, Anthinus combo is only true if it kills, and thus all setups are used in the 90-110 damage range.
Now everyone knows that you can set this up with the weak, ending hitbox of the dash attack, but I'm going to expand on this move in a few ways.
a. When Snake gets the max spacing on his forward tilt, and you punish him with AT #4, its actually PERFECT SPACING FOR THIS MOVE.
b. My boy Infizzie made a vid about the mechanics of Spindashery. And at 2:10 in his vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQ34M-Bdo6k) he shows how to end a basic spindash without the terrible screech lag. Now, if you are able to hit with the SDR right before this cancel, the hit actually gives you perfect placement for the anthinus combo!!
c. I stated this before in another thread, but I want to restate this. At the higher end of the damage spectrum for this move, If the opponent DIs upward, it is actually possible to perform a down throw, and use sonics amazing speed to run under the opponent and place a spring under them before they land.
Im also going to add 2 methods, that need testing since I LITERALLY, just thought of them on the spot, while typing this post.
d. Down smash. If you are playing agianst against a spotdodge spammer, it should be possible to anticipate them, and perform a down smash, and have them get hit by the 3rd and last hitbox, (the one that goes forward but has less power and range than the initial part) and be able to use the small amount of ending lag on this move to run after them and place a spring under their landing spot and complete the anthinus combo. Very similar to method c.
e. Down tilt, I was unsure about even including this just because the percentages that it would even work at, are wayyy too low for this to be able to kill with but I figured id put it out there, and see what you guys come up with, maybe it can be used for a free down air or something.
HUGE EFFING DISCOVERY: f.
KID AT #6
The KID CG!!
Normally I would put in some kind of quote or video to explain what the KID CG is, but since I dont have any vids of myself doing it, I have to settle for a poor imitation. loljk.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rl44vnqg16U
the first move of the game.
up throw to more up throws at 0 damage.
Ive seen many different versions of this, with sonic doing various things to lead into the next grab, but the one that i feel is the most effective is to include the DDP into this string.
When you do the first foxtrot away from them it gives them a false sence of security that they can just land, but with the dash pivot you can instantly be moving at max speed in the opposite direction, and then get a running grab on them right as they land.
At my tourney on sat. i pulled this off on a D3 and got him from 0-75 doing only this string.
Since up throw is his most damaging throw, as well as his best set up, you need to keep in mind 2 things.
You should want to milk this CG for all is has, but as a skillful reader, you should know your opponent and their character well enough to know how many times you can smack the duck before they learn.
In most of my experiences the average comes out to about 2-3 throws before they stop airdodging on instinct and jump to get away. Now if you can predict when that will happen, you have the option at that point to go for the shinku KID combo, which entails pulling off this up throw chain 2-3 times, than when you know they are going to jump out, that is your oppurtunity to jump, hit them with an up air, double jump, to hit them with another up air, and than USE THE BOOST TO GET THROUGH!!
...erm...
ahem...
and than use the spring invinciblity to go right past them and any counter attacks they might have tried to use and than hit them with a down air, which will net you anywhere from 45-65 damage depending on a few factors.
Now after that combo, the foe is sent a good distance away but since you just pulled off an AC down air, you are still free to chase them and camp their landing or continue attacking however you see fit. A good follow up to this is to wait for about half a second after the down air, and then run and pull a hyphen smash under them right before they land, 90% of the time, their brawl instincts will make them try to airdodge into the ground and we all know that doesnt work against sonics hyphen smash.
With this AT im, open to new ideas, i just think that this is the most effective, flashy, and tech skill heavy way to pull it off. and the flashyness does belie its substance since the whole dash around the stage, while the opponent is in hit/dodge stun above the stage, makes sonic harder to follow than normal when the other guy tries to figure out what you are doing.
KID AT #7!!
Down Tilt!
Since my foes are already acclimated to avoid grabs early in the stock because of the KID CG, ive had to find alternate ways to get that early damage in.
Thats where this move comes in!!
Now by now, we should all know what down tilt combos look like, but just in case, they can be found at 2:13 in this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQkGDK_NaMk
and 3:57 in this vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4GGuRDQShw
yes those are my fav vids.
anyway, the point is to determine what the best follow up for this combo is. Some say its f-smash, some say f-tilt, some say, u-tilt.
But in terms of reliability, damage, and placement for more followup, GRAB is always the best follow up to this combo. (yes it is a combo)
include 1-2 pummels, grabbing will be the most damaging followup and it allows for expression as a sonic main since not all of us are focused on whatever throw.
Malcom for example loves his forward throw
Personally, I am obsessed with up throw.
Pufferson cant get enough down throw
We all know how Boxob is with his Boxthrows.
Even Blue puts a lot of focus into grab releases.
and since those are all good options, it only makes sence to grab after all your down tilt combos.
But thats not all, for this part I need the help of those that can test things.
I personally think that the way the falcos found out exactly what damage they can CG every character to before they cant grab again, I think we need to have a down tilt list of how many times and to what damages we can combo each character with this move. On MK i know it works to for 3 tilts in a row usually before they get out of it, while ive heard stories of people taking fox's from 0-60 and crazy numbers like that. So get on it!
*important! announcement*
magnum was actually smart enough to listen to me and compile this information. Thank you very much.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=216027
Last but not least, every one should learn how to reverse this combo. It always upsets me when I see a vid of somebody down tilt comboing and than having to stop when they could get more just because sonic slid under the opponent and they can't do a turn around down tilt to continue the combo.
KID AT #8!
Double Ledgehop Attacks!
Normally I tend to get very wordy with my definitions of these moves, but this will be just the opposite. When you hang on the ledge, you can fall off, double jump and forward air the opposite and land on the stage. But if you are fast enough pulling off this move, the forward air will end and you can n air before you even hit the ground.
And the properties of this combination make it very effective because the n air is begun so close to the ground that
1. only the strongest hitbox will activate. and
2. the n air will land during the strongest hit, and as far as I can tell, landing during that beginning phase, is the n air landing that has the least amount of landing lag. so this move in entirety is pretty close to lagless as well.
p.s. just to let you know, after the f air in this string, you can also spring, or do a side b, which can be boxcanceled. you can also with great timing, it should be able to ASC cancel as well, but it seems moot, because you wont move very far before you stop if you shield cancel it, so you are just better off box cancelling it. (side b) because its much easier.
OH SNAP!!
as im typing this i just realised you can HA as well out of the ledgehopped f air.
MINDGAAAAAMMMEESSS!!
just dont try to do any other airials beside n air, lest you land super laggy.
oops i got mad wordy again. oh well w/e
KID AT #9!!
Wario ****!
So a little while back, the peaches decided to join the ranks of yoshi, ganon, ZSS, and D3 in the ever expanding number of characters that can do some thing gay to wario out of his Grab Release (GR). If you missed the epicness, heres the demo...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0c0I-ybNEwI
and if that wasnt **** enough, that GR combo can lead into this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4sTCS7knCM
So, thats pretty win. Now I thought of how I could apply this to sonic. And heres what I cam up with.
If you air release wario, you can jump up and footstool him into an untechable landing. And at that point you can either immediately down air (a la KID AT #2), or pull a basic spring to down air TO INITIATE A JAB LOCK.
So yea, sonic has a 100% effective, non damage dependant jab combo setup on Wario, that when perfected, will always lead into a forward smash.
Credit for this technique goes out to GodismyRock and Praxis for inspiration, and Gf2tw, for being the only person in the Steak Break Room epic and beast enough to test and confirm this for me.
*** Let it be noted that Malcom has stated that when played correctly, its INCREDIBLY difficult to land a grab on wario. So this doesnt turn into an auto win for us. However, being the fastest character in the game, I think we can sneak 1 or 2 grabs in on wario, and i think that once this is properly implemented, Wario will not be on the "this character ***** sonic" list anymore for a lot of sonics.
Chapter 2!
Box Techs!!
Box Techs are almost the same as KID ATs except that they are created by my man Boxob instead of yours truly, I hope that he takes this idea and makes his own thread from it.
With that out of the way
Box Tech #1!!
Up air Spam!
It turns out that if you are at long range from your opponent and decide to repeatedly use SH AC up airs, it can quickly condition your opponent, thus setting up for a ground based assault using sonics amazing speed to to attack the opponent while they are confused as to how to counter theup air spam. Good moves to use this with, would be dash attack, and grab, just like 80% of situations with sonic, grab is the most damaging option and the best set up for the application of this move.
This move is so new, I dont even have any vids of it to show the application in action, all I have is the knowledge that this works.
Box Tech #2!!
Rampaging-Back-Air-Grab a.k.a. BoxCutting!
Boxob found out that a good approach option against projectile spammers, is to spinshot, to a back air which will naturally be sheilded and than you can grab the opponent.
Since it uses Sonic's incredible movement options it can usually catch opponents off guard, which is what allows Sonic to get the grab in.
NEW SECTION!!!
KID Theory!
Seeing as I dont really have a Wii to test things on, there are many time where I come up with ideas but cant test them due to not beign able to play this game whenever I want.
Hopefully more people like magnum can help me out and test the theorys that i post on here. I have to get them down in writing since im very prone to forget things.
Now should my ideas prove not to work, they will stay up as theory, so as to possibly give the other members of the boards ideas on stuff to come up with on their own. But should they come to fruition as i would like them to, they will graduate and become official KID ATs
with that done...
KID Theory #1!!
Back air!!
It should be known that back air is sonics highest priority airial. I was thinking about how to make my sonic take less damage and thus survive longer. The obvious plan is to work on my DI and learn the ability to get out of multi hit attacks. This is very good and I suggest all serious players do it. But if that option fails you, we all know sonic's spring allows him to get out of bad situations. But the down side to that is that it leaves him with out any b moves, and thus he becomes very vulnerable to land camping.
Now, Ive done very limited testing on this, and it seems that performing back air when entering your opponents range can ensure your safe landing since back airs hitbox is pretty big and disjointed.
The only sitch so far where I know this works is against snake (its like the only match I even know anymore). When he down throws you, your best option to avoid a follow up is to wait about a half second and stand straight up and immediately spring. The snakes timing will rarely be good enough to regrabb you out of this. but than he gets the chance to land camp you with up tilts (a rediculously good land camping move by the way.) but ive personally held a great amount of success DIing as far away as I can from snake and spacing back airs. It frequently beats out his up tilt
I reallise up tilt isnt nearly as disjointed vertically as horisontally but its still impressive that back air can beat it.
I would like to see what other land camping moves back air can hit through.
Oli's upsmash?
MKs Tornado?
Up tilt?
up smash?
up air?
KID Theory #2!!
Back air Grabs!
It is understood that Box Tech #2 is effective because of the off-beatness of the move
But i had a thought.
We all know that back air has almost no lag, no matter when you land it. But What if Box Tech #2 is possible as a general move, simply because, if initiated at the right time (right before you hit the ground) the sheild-stun frames of the sweetspot back air is higher than the number of frames in landing the back air and grabbing put together.
That would be amazing for this character. since grabs are mostly agreed to be sonics best way to rack damage.
IF it is true that a grab is inescapable after this, Sonics standing will most certainly improve, because he will become a much better character. seeing as sonic basically doesnt have any garenteed damage moves except for KID AT #7
KID Theory #3!!
n-air lock!!
We all know that n air has 3 hitboxes to it and that the third is the weakest...
BUT
is it weak enough to sustain a jablock,
if my theory works out, sonic should be able to do something similar to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_dsnSjCmb8
This theory is false, and has been
DEBUNKED
_______________________________________________
Anyone that is concerned with sonic becoming a better character, I humbly ask that you test these theorys out for me.
It will be HIGHLY APPRECIATED.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Every time I think of something new I will return to this thread and post it here.
Basically, I have thought it over, and decided that its time to share some of my discoveries with you people...KID: ... care to explain? you do a lot of "omg discovery!11" without ever sharing >.>
(as far as I remember...) Not that you have to, lol, but it'd be nice
But first off, a disclaimer...
Boxob has told me that im getting a big ego as of late, so i just want it to be known that just because i say KID AT doesnt mean that im claiming ownership or creation of these in anyway. Im basically taking a few things that werent known to everybody, making them known to everyone, and giving them practical uses as well. as a matter of fact one of the KID ATs that i will get to is named after somebody else.
some of the stuff is created by me, but saying KID AT #420 is just a way of me keeping them in order in the context of this thread
Now, down to business
KID AT #1!!
instant SpinDash Jump
Instant SpinDash Jump is the process of charging Down B and c sticking either up or forward to fly through the air, similarly to a spinshot. A good example of this move in action and one of the practical uses for it is in JBs second vid, Acceleromaniac http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL6HKOwO2eA at 6:17
From now on, I will be refering to this as iSDJ.
Now, that being said, iSDJ is superior to spinshot in almost EVERY CONCEIVABLE WAY.
Spinshot is lower to the ground, and slightly faster moving through the air, and can be performed in the air.
however iSDJ is easier to pull off (charge down b and at anytime, hit up on c stick) HAS A HITBOX, and most importantly, RETAINS YOUR DOUBLE JUMP.
Its better, learn to use it, it combos into f-air. You can do it off the stage into a down air, and still be able to recover, i gimped a DK doing this yesterday.
KID AT #2!!!!
Jab locks!
We know them, we love them, we hate the work that it takes to pull one off with sonic.
But ive discovered at least one new way to jab lock effectively.
1. we all know the basic jab lock setup: Side b hop to facejump, to spring to AC down air. but A slightly easier, slightly less effective way of pulling that off is:
side b hop to facejump, TO IMMEDIATE DOWN AIR, to buffered turnaround jab.
I got this idea from playing kirks ike, one of his best moves was, spot dodge, and in the dodge, he would buffer a turnaround jab. and since ike has the best jab in the game, that move is effective. so i thought of how to use this for sonic, and i came up with this. Now since you are down airing right after the Facejump, the lag might give the opponent the time to roll out, but if they dont, this does work! I also took note of the ganon matchup discussion when one of them said how integral the buffering system is to ganons playstyle. so i used that in this as well. And even if you dont pull this off correctly, its still a free down air, and we always take free damage...
2. By far, the most simple combo ive ever seen. For this, I thought about how the fact that screech stops allow you to do any move so quickly and tried to put it to better use.
Jab combo to run to screech stop, to jab lock.
Ive noticed that on silly hits like these, teching isnt the first thing on peoples minds. So at HIGHLY VARYING PERCENTS, this will work. I did this to a ganon yesterday at 70%. so im guessing this can go all the way from 70% on super heavys like ganon, to as low as possibly 20% for jigglypuff
KID AT #3!!
Ledgeshooting.
I got the idea from this move, from trying to replicate a move that was done on accident at 1:28 in JB's sonic video. For those of you that missed it, or want to see it again...
Basically how ledgeshooting works, all you have to do is be hanging on the edge, drop off and immediately spinshot. Performed correctly sonic will appear to climb up the stage, and will land on the stage, about half a roll's distance in, retaining forward momentuma and a neutral position, which means that he can do any move from it. The drawback to this move is that so far, ive only concluded this tech to be performed on Battlefield, Yoshi's Island Brawl, and Pictochat. In theory, this should be able to work with any ledges that whose walls go straight down to the bottom of the stage. I know for a fact that this move does not work on FD, or Green GreensSorry Boxy..
This move is good to punish long range edgeguarders. If Marth tries to block you from the stage, and tries to charge forward smash from max range, you can drop off, ledgeshoot and be within down tilt range of him. Im not completely positive on that one, but im pretty sure.
An alternate, easier way to perform this, is to drop from the ledge, side b normally and after the release, jump adn hold forward. Its slower, doesnt give you as much momentum, and doesnt put you as far on the stage. So its much easier, but not as effective
KID AT #4!!
OoSiDA!
I thought of this when I talked to Jesiah after he came back from C3, he said that people in our area dont punish people well enough. I also noticed that people were looking up frame data on MK and concluding that he is supposedly much more punishable than we thought. So I thought that being the fastest person in the game would be able to do something good with this information.
I am going to let tenki explain the basics of it.
From the Ganon matchup discussion:
The last sentance is incredibly important. its very good for punishing. But i dont think that too many people know the full scale of how good this is.
When buffered Out of Shield as a counter attack this move becomes **** tier.
It is fast enough and ranged enough to punished perfectly spaced Snake F-tilt and a perfectly spaced MK down-smash. This move is amazing and needs to be used enough to be a factor in matchup discussions. This move single handedly makes sonic one of the best punishers in the game
A quick aside:
Starting with AT #4 and 5, you will notice that these moves are becoming more and more dependant on the other player. This means that some things will have to take place before these moves are even applicable.
1. You as a player will probably have to take your prediction game to the next level.
and 2. Both you and your opponent have to be on a pretty high level of play. note the parentheses in the thread title.
With that out of the way...
KID AT #5!!
The Anthinus Combo!
Now I realise that this is neither new, nor unknown, but just roll with me for a sec here.
I advise everyone to refamiliarize themselves with the anthinus combo by watching his vid. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4GGuRDQShw) And for all my intents and purposes, Anthinus combo is only true if it kills, and thus all setups are used in the 90-110 damage range.
Now everyone knows that you can set this up with the weak, ending hitbox of the dash attack, but I'm going to expand on this move in a few ways.
a. When Snake gets the max spacing on his forward tilt, and you punish him with AT #4, its actually PERFECT SPACING FOR THIS MOVE.
b. My boy Infizzie made a vid about the mechanics of Spindashery. And at 2:10 in his vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQ34M-Bdo6k) he shows how to end a basic spindash without the terrible screech lag. Now, if you are able to hit with the SDR right before this cancel, the hit actually gives you perfect placement for the anthinus combo!!
c. I stated this before in another thread, but I want to restate this. At the higher end of the damage spectrum for this move, If the opponent DIs upward, it is actually possible to perform a down throw, and use sonics amazing speed to run under the opponent and place a spring under them before they land.
Im also going to add 2 methods, that need testing since I LITERALLY, just thought of them on the spot, while typing this post.
d. Down smash. If you are playing agianst against a spotdodge spammer, it should be possible to anticipate them, and perform a down smash, and have them get hit by the 3rd and last hitbox, (the one that goes forward but has less power and range than the initial part) and be able to use the small amount of ending lag on this move to run after them and place a spring under their landing spot and complete the anthinus combo. Very similar to method c.
e. Down tilt, I was unsure about even including this just because the percentages that it would even work at, are wayyy too low for this to be able to kill with but I figured id put it out there, and see what you guys come up with, maybe it can be used for a free down air or something.
HUGE EFFING DISCOVERY: f.
KID AT #6
The KID CG!!
Normally I would put in some kind of quote or video to explain what the KID CG is, but since I dont have any vids of myself doing it, I have to settle for a poor imitation. loljk.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rl44vnqg16U
the first move of the game.
up throw to more up throws at 0 damage.
Ive seen many different versions of this, with sonic doing various things to lead into the next grab, but the one that i feel is the most effective is to include the DDP into this string.
When you do the first foxtrot away from them it gives them a false sence of security that they can just land, but with the dash pivot you can instantly be moving at max speed in the opposite direction, and then get a running grab on them right as they land.
At my tourney on sat. i pulled this off on a D3 and got him from 0-75 doing only this string.
Since up throw is his most damaging throw, as well as his best set up, you need to keep in mind 2 things.
You should want to milk this CG for all is has, but as a skillful reader, you should know your opponent and their character well enough to know how many times you can smack the duck before they learn.
In most of my experiences the average comes out to about 2-3 throws before they stop airdodging on instinct and jump to get away. Now if you can predict when that will happen, you have the option at that point to go for the shinku KID combo, which entails pulling off this up throw chain 2-3 times, than when you know they are going to jump out, that is your oppurtunity to jump, hit them with an up air, double jump, to hit them with another up air, and than USE THE BOOST TO GET THROUGH!!
...erm...
ahem...
and than use the spring invinciblity to go right past them and any counter attacks they might have tried to use and than hit them with a down air, which will net you anywhere from 45-65 damage depending on a few factors.
Now after that combo, the foe is sent a good distance away but since you just pulled off an AC down air, you are still free to chase them and camp their landing or continue attacking however you see fit. A good follow up to this is to wait for about half a second after the down air, and then run and pull a hyphen smash under them right before they land, 90% of the time, their brawl instincts will make them try to airdodge into the ground and we all know that doesnt work against sonics hyphen smash.
With this AT im, open to new ideas, i just think that this is the most effective, flashy, and tech skill heavy way to pull it off. and the flashyness does belie its substance since the whole dash around the stage, while the opponent is in hit/dodge stun above the stage, makes sonic harder to follow than normal when the other guy tries to figure out what you are doing.
KID AT #7!!
Down Tilt!
Since my foes are already acclimated to avoid grabs early in the stock because of the KID CG, ive had to find alternate ways to get that early damage in.
Thats where this move comes in!!
Now by now, we should all know what down tilt combos look like, but just in case, they can be found at 2:13 in this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQkGDK_NaMk
and 3:57 in this vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4GGuRDQShw
yes those are my fav vids.
anyway, the point is to determine what the best follow up for this combo is. Some say its f-smash, some say f-tilt, some say, u-tilt.
But in terms of reliability, damage, and placement for more followup, GRAB is always the best follow up to this combo. (yes it is a combo)
include 1-2 pummels, grabbing will be the most damaging followup and it allows for expression as a sonic main since not all of us are focused on whatever throw.
Malcom for example loves his forward throw
Personally, I am obsessed with up throw.
Pufferson cant get enough down throw
We all know how Boxob is with his Boxthrows.
Even Blue puts a lot of focus into grab releases.
and since those are all good options, it only makes sence to grab after all your down tilt combos.
But thats not all, for this part I need the help of those that can test things.
I personally think that the way the falcos found out exactly what damage they can CG every character to before they cant grab again, I think we need to have a down tilt list of how many times and to what damages we can combo each character with this move. On MK i know it works to for 3 tilts in a row usually before they get out of it, while ive heard stories of people taking fox's from 0-60 and crazy numbers like that. So get on it!
*important! announcement*
magnum was actually smart enough to listen to me and compile this information. Thank you very much.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=216027
Last but not least, every one should learn how to reverse this combo. It always upsets me when I see a vid of somebody down tilt comboing and than having to stop when they could get more just because sonic slid under the opponent and they can't do a turn around down tilt to continue the combo.
KID AT #8!
Double Ledgehop Attacks!
Normally I tend to get very wordy with my definitions of these moves, but this will be just the opposite. When you hang on the ledge, you can fall off, double jump and forward air the opposite and land on the stage. But if you are fast enough pulling off this move, the forward air will end and you can n air before you even hit the ground.
And the properties of this combination make it very effective because the n air is begun so close to the ground that
1. only the strongest hitbox will activate. and
2. the n air will land during the strongest hit, and as far as I can tell, landing during that beginning phase, is the n air landing that has the least amount of landing lag. so this move in entirety is pretty close to lagless as well.
p.s. just to let you know, after the f air in this string, you can also spring, or do a side b, which can be boxcanceled. you can also with great timing, it should be able to ASC cancel as well, but it seems moot, because you wont move very far before you stop if you shield cancel it, so you are just better off box cancelling it. (side b) because its much easier.
OH SNAP!!
as im typing this i just realised you can HA as well out of the ledgehopped f air.
MINDGAAAAAMMMEESSS!!
just dont try to do any other airials beside n air, lest you land super laggy.
oops i got mad wordy again. oh well w/e
KID AT #9!!
Wario ****!
So a little while back, the peaches decided to join the ranks of yoshi, ganon, ZSS, and D3 in the ever expanding number of characters that can do some thing gay to wario out of his Grab Release (GR). If you missed the epicness, heres the demo...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0c0I-ybNEwI
and if that wasnt **** enough, that GR combo can lead into this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4sTCS7knCM
So, thats pretty win. Now I thought of how I could apply this to sonic. And heres what I cam up with.
If you air release wario, you can jump up and footstool him into an untechable landing. And at that point you can either immediately down air (a la KID AT #2), or pull a basic spring to down air TO INITIATE A JAB LOCK.
So yea, sonic has a 100% effective, non damage dependant jab combo setup on Wario, that when perfected, will always lead into a forward smash.
Credit for this technique goes out to GodismyRock and Praxis for inspiration, and Gf2tw, for being the only person in the Steak Break Room epic and beast enough to test and confirm this for me.
*** Let it be noted that Malcom has stated that when played correctly, its INCREDIBLY difficult to land a grab on wario. So this doesnt turn into an auto win for us. However, being the fastest character in the game, I think we can sneak 1 or 2 grabs in on wario, and i think that once this is properly implemented, Wario will not be on the "this character ***** sonic" list anymore for a lot of sonics.
Chapter 2!
Box Techs!!
Box Techs are almost the same as KID ATs except that they are created by my man Boxob instead of yours truly, I hope that he takes this idea and makes his own thread from it.
With that out of the way
Box Tech #1!!
Up air Spam!
It turns out that if you are at long range from your opponent and decide to repeatedly use SH AC up airs, it can quickly condition your opponent, thus setting up for a ground based assault using sonics amazing speed to to attack the opponent while they are confused as to how to counter theup air spam. Good moves to use this with, would be dash attack, and grab, just like 80% of situations with sonic, grab is the most damaging option and the best set up for the application of this move.
This move is so new, I dont even have any vids of it to show the application in action, all I have is the knowledge that this works.
Box Tech #2!!
Rampaging-Back-Air-Grab a.k.a. BoxCutting!
Boxob found out that a good approach option against projectile spammers, is to spinshot, to a back air which will naturally be sheilded and than you can grab the opponent.
Since it uses Sonic's incredible movement options it can usually catch opponents off guard, which is what allows Sonic to get the grab in.
NEW SECTION!!!
KID Theory!
Seeing as I dont really have a Wii to test things on, there are many time where I come up with ideas but cant test them due to not beign able to play this game whenever I want.
Hopefully more people like magnum can help me out and test the theorys that i post on here. I have to get them down in writing since im very prone to forget things.
Now should my ideas prove not to work, they will stay up as theory, so as to possibly give the other members of the boards ideas on stuff to come up with on their own. But should they come to fruition as i would like them to, they will graduate and become official KID ATs
with that done...
KID Theory #1!!
Back air!!
It should be known that back air is sonics highest priority airial. I was thinking about how to make my sonic take less damage and thus survive longer. The obvious plan is to work on my DI and learn the ability to get out of multi hit attacks. This is very good and I suggest all serious players do it. But if that option fails you, we all know sonic's spring allows him to get out of bad situations. But the down side to that is that it leaves him with out any b moves, and thus he becomes very vulnerable to land camping.
Now, Ive done very limited testing on this, and it seems that performing back air when entering your opponents range can ensure your safe landing since back airs hitbox is pretty big and disjointed.
The only sitch so far where I know this works is against snake (its like the only match I even know anymore). When he down throws you, your best option to avoid a follow up is to wait about a half second and stand straight up and immediately spring. The snakes timing will rarely be good enough to regrabb you out of this. but than he gets the chance to land camp you with up tilts (a rediculously good land camping move by the way.) but ive personally held a great amount of success DIing as far away as I can from snake and spacing back airs. It frequently beats out his up tilt
I reallise up tilt isnt nearly as disjointed vertically as horisontally but its still impressive that back air can beat it.
I would like to see what other land camping moves back air can hit through.
Oli's upsmash?
MKs Tornado?
Up tilt?
up smash?
up air?
KID Theory #2!!
Back air Grabs!
It is understood that Box Tech #2 is effective because of the off-beatness of the move
But i had a thought.
We all know that back air has almost no lag, no matter when you land it. But What if Box Tech #2 is possible as a general move, simply because, if initiated at the right time (right before you hit the ground) the sheild-stun frames of the sweetspot back air is higher than the number of frames in landing the back air and grabbing put together.
That would be amazing for this character. since grabs are mostly agreed to be sonics best way to rack damage.
IF it is true that a grab is inescapable after this, Sonics standing will most certainly improve, because he will become a much better character. seeing as sonic basically doesnt have any garenteed damage moves except for KID AT #7
KID Theory #3!!
n-air lock!!
We all know that n air has 3 hitboxes to it and that the third is the weakest...
BUT
is it weak enough to sustain a jablock,
if my theory works out, sonic should be able to do something similar to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_dsnSjCmb8
This theory is false, and has been
DEBUNKED
_______________________________________________
Anyone that is concerned with sonic becoming a better character, I humbly ask that you test these theorys out for me.
It will be HIGHLY APPRECIATED.
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Every time I think of something new I will return to this thread and post it here.
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