Link's E for All Expo Report

[killbeast301]

hey egtuntz, could you (or anyone here actually) post pictures of link's costumes? or maybe a video where you switch between costumes at the character selection screen? I know it might be hard but I'd like to see some detail.

 

[Wyvern]

As long as we're talking about throws anyway, here's another question I just thought of (though you probably don't have enough experience to answer it, unless you specifically tried it). In Melee, a popular combo was to down-throw someone into a Spin Attack. It was pretty effective if the weight-to-damage ratio on the opponent was in the right range, but a lot of floaty characters could DI or dodge their way out of it (I don't think it worked on Ness, for example, and Peach could easily float-cancel out of it). Now that everyone is a lot floatier, is this the end for that particular combo? Or might it still work against some of the faster-falling characters?

 

[Florida]

BLAST! Oh well, I was like 80% right. Good enough for me. I iz so smrt!





You can grab aerial opponents with Link, but you couldn't catch them like through their feet (like with most characters, basically MUST be a body shot) and you had to be closer (somewhere around less than 1/2 the length of the entire hookshot for it to be a successful grab).

And yes, nAirs are important, especially when it comes to Link... SO STOP FORGETTING!!!
GWAAAAAR!!!

Ooo, thanks for the info!

hey egtuntz, could you (or anyone here actually) post pictures of link's costumes? or maybe a video where you switch between costumes at the character selection screen? I know it might be hard but I'd like to see some detail.

I don't have any videos, but I took a ton of pictures!
Even so, I don't know if I got any of the Link costumes in 'em XD
I'm sure there's at least one on the internet, just gotta search!

As long as we're talking about throws anyway, here's another question I just thought of (though you probably don't have enough experience to answer it, unless you specifically tried it). In Melee, a popular combo was to down-throw someone into a Spin Attack. It was pretty effective if the weight-to-damage ratio on the opponent was in the right range, but a lot of floaty characters could DI or dodge their way out of it (I don't think it worked on Ness, for example, and Peach could easily float-cancel out of it). Now that everyone is a lot floatier, is this the end for that particular combo? Or might it still work against some of the faster-falling characters?

Actually I'm aware of that combo. I use the up throw --> up-b on space critters! ^.^
I actually tried doing the up-throw --> up-b, but no good. I should've thought of doing a down throw instead! Blast! >.<

 

[X-x-Dyce-x-X]

Ooo, thanks for the info!

Ya welcome! :bigthumbu

(I've played a lot of Link in my day so... y'know.)

 

[Silent_Hill_Crossing]

As long as we're talking about throws anyway, here's another question I just thought of (though you probably don't have enough experience to answer it, unless you specifically tried it). In Melee, a popular combo was to down-throw someone into a Spin Attack. It was pretty effective if the weight-to-damage ratio on the opponent was in the right range, but a lot of floaty characters could DI or dodge their way out of it (I don't think it worked on Ness, for example, and Peach could easily float-cancel out of it). Now that everyone is a lot floatier, is this the end for that particular combo? Or might it still work against some of the faster-falling characters?

From what many people have said who went to E for All, they noticed most characters fall at the same rate. Possibly rendering this "throw-combo" ineffective.

That sort of stinks.

 

[X-x-Dyce-x-X]

From what many people have said who went to E for All, they noticed most characters fall at the same rate. Possibly rendering this "throw-combo" ineffective.

That sort of stinks.

Wow, that does stink. Different falling speeds actually differentiate characters from each other and alter personal preference a LOT. Can you imagine a floaty CFalcon?

I'm really hoping that Sakurai fixes this. Anything else, I suppose I'm alright with.

 

[Silent_Hill_Crossing]

Wow, that does stink. Different falling speeds actually differentiate characters from each other and alter personal preference a LOT. Can you imagine a floaty CFalcon?

I'm really hoping that Sakurai fixes this. Anything else, I suppose I'm alright with.

I agree, the different fall speeds, add a great chance of increasing in new combos, and such.

I too hope Sakurai doesn't keep this "mechanic" the way it is.

 

[Wyvern]

Wow, that does stink. Different falling speeds actually differentiate characters from each other and alter personal preference a LOT. Can you imagine a floaty CFalcon?

I'm really hoping that Sakurai fixes this. Anything else, I suppose I'm alright with.

I'm assuming that it's part of the "make speed not the single most important aspect of a character's performance" initiative. Not only is vertical movement speed significant in itself, but the less time you spend in the air, the less time you spend vulnerable and the sooner you can get to your next dash or jump. Quick falling rates, along with fast movement speed in general, made characters like Fox and Falco almost impossible to deal with for a lot of characters (like Link). It also made them harder to knock off the screen upwards (I think), artificially increasing their weight and eliminating the lightweight vulnerability they were supposed to have.

That's my take on it, anyway. You lose some flavor, but it may help keep the Foxes and Sheiks of the world from rising to insurmountable overpoweredness again.

 

[Silent_Hill_Crossing]

That's my take on it, anyway. You lose some flavor, but it may help keep the Foxes and Sheiks of the world from rising to insurmountable overpoweredness again.

On second thought, that is a good idea. I can't believe I didn't think of that.


Man, all this info on so much, and yet so little on new combos/etc. Is driving me insane. Oh well.

 

[Florida]

Here! :D
I have some pictures for you all!

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc255/egruntz/Photos/Picture057.jpg
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc255/egruntz/Photos/Picture058.jpg
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc255/egruntz/Photos/Picture059.jpg

Which character I'm using is only obvious.
As for who I am: I'm on the far left!

I have a lot more pictures stored in my comp, but these are the only ones that really relate to the topic.
If you want to see more, let me know and I'll post 'em! Enjoy!

Edit:
If you want more pics, go here!

 

[X-x-Dyce-x-X]

I'm assuming that it's part of the "make speed not the single most important aspect of a character's performance" initiative. Not only is vertical movement speed significant in itself, but the less time you spend in the air, the less time you spend vulnerable and the sooner you can get to your next dash or jump. Quick falling rates, along with fast movement speed in general, made characters like Fox and Falco almost impossible to deal with for a lot of characters (like Link). It also made them harder to knock off the screen upwards (I think), artificially increasing their weight and eliminating the lightweight vulnerability they were supposed to have.

That's my take on it, anyway. You lose some flavor, but it may help keep the Foxes and Sheiks of the world from rising to insurmountable overpoweredness again.

True, it does make them easier to combo with, but adversely it makes them more easily comboed. They do spend less time recovering, but they spend more time incapacitated that it doesn't matter until they hit the floor.

It's a system that really works itself out. I say bring it back.

 

[Wyvern]

True, it does make them easier to combo with, but adversely it makes them more easily comboed. They do spend less time recovering, but they spend more time incapacitated that it doesn't matter until they hit the floor.

It's a system that really works itself out. I say bring it back.

What? You're talking about the effects of floatiness on the ex-fastfallers in Melee here? I think you misunderstood me.

Falco in Melee: He falls really fast. This makes him almost impossible to combo for a lot of slower characters like Link, because he hits the ground before they can even get into position. At the same time, it HELPS a lot of his own combos, because the sooner he lands, the sooner he can get into position for his next attack. AND most of his attacks were powerful to begin with. The only disadvantages are that it's harder to learn how to control (which has absolutely nothing to do with balance) and hurts recovery somewhat (and even then it's only really drastic with Falco).

It didn't work itself out, it contributed to creating the overpoweredness of the strong, fast-running, fast-falling Melee top tier. Now that Fox hangs in the air long enough for Link to get an up-air or two on him, maybe he'll have a chance at actually winning occasionally. It's SUPPOSED to weaken them. That's the whole point.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc255/egruntz/Photos/Picture057.jpg
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc255/egruntz/Photos/Picture058.jpg
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc255/egruntz/Photos/Picture059.jpg

Wow, yellow Link does look pretty nice. I'm usually not a fan of yellow, but it's got a nice kind of an orangey-goldy sort of vibe going on.

Samus's Gravity Suit is looking pretty good, too.

 

[Florida]

What? You're talking about the fastfallers in Melee here? I think you misunderstood me.

Falco in Melee: He falls really fast. This makes him almost impossible to combo for a lot of slower characters like Link, because he hits the ground before they can even get into position. At the same time, it HELPS a lot of his own combos, because the sooner he lands, the sooner he can get into position for his next attack. AND most of his attacks were powerful to begin with. The only disadvantages are that it's harder to learn how to control (which has absolutely nothing to do with balance) and hurts recovery somewhat (and even then it's only really drastic with Falco).

It didn't work itself out, it contributed to creating the overpoweredness of the strong, fast-running, fast-falling Melee top tier. Now that Fox hangs in the air long enough for Link to get an up-air or two on him, maybe he'll have a chance at actually winning occasionally.



Wow, yellow Link does look pretty nice. I'm usually not a fan of yellow, but it's got a nice kind of an orangey-goldy sort of vibe going on.

Samus's Gravity Suit is looking pretty good, too.

Being a fast faller has it's own strengths and weaknesses. Fast fallers aren't K.O.'d as often, and can combo easily. But they also are vulnerable to being chaingrabbed, have potential of a suckish recovery, and don't have as good as DI as some other characters have.

I really didn't notice all of the characters having the same weight, but I really didn't NOT notice it either. So... I can't really say on that one. When I was playing, though, it was rather easy to combo with Link. So whatever changed, it was for the better!

 

[X-x-Dyce-x-X]

I have no problem comboing a Fox or a Falco or a CFalcon as Link. If you're familiar enough with any character, no matter how slow they are, you could find more than one way to combo them. (With the acception of Bowser who has no true combo-ability.)

And fast-falling has nothing to do with the position of characters on a tier list. Sure, it helps a little, but look at Link, look at CFalcon. They aren't Top Tier. Look at Marth and Peach. They're floaty and High Tier. Tier rankings have to do with the versatility of all their abilities.

If a character falls quick, then they're up and right back down before they "wake up" and can be led into combos easily. Really, it's a pro and a con.

 

[.::Link::.]

*jumps for joy*

Finally...Link becomes more promising and battle worthy! I did play him in SSBM but only on casuals because he couldn't really stand up to the 'high tier' characters......But after reading the reports about Link he sounds like he is gonna be GR8! (Not to mention kick@$$ new suits!)

-Link-

 

[Silent_Hill_Crossing]

I have no problem comboing a Fox or a Falco or a CFalcon as Link. If you're familiar enough with any character, no matter how slow they are, you could find more than one way to combo them. (With the acception of Bowser who has no true combo-ability.)

And fast-falling has nothing to do with the position of characters on a tier list. Sure, it helps a little, but look at Link, look at CFalcon. They aren't Top Tier. Look at Marth and Peach. They're floaty and High Tier. Tier rankings have to do with the versatility of all their abilities.

If a character falls quick, then they're up and right back down before they "wake up" and can be led into combos easily. Really, it's a pro and a con.

I'm apt. to disagree with this.

In a real tourney, CF/Link getting an easy combo on a true pro, is nigh impossible if they are using Fox/Falco. Being slow has a BIG negative impact on whether you'll get to even preform a combo.

The equal falling, gives a good advantage to the "slower" characters considering Fox/etc. can't drop down, and easily avoid the laggy move.

Marth is a bad example for the Peach/Marth falling idea. Marth is just plain UBER, to most characters by a pro. Peach good example but, meh it's hard to explain.

And if a character falls quick, they are liable to easily dodge roll ot of the way before the opponent can connect a combo-startup blow.

 

[Wyvern]

Being a fast faller has it's own strengths and weaknesses. Fast fallers aren't K.O.'d as often, and can combo easily. But they also are vulnerable to being chaingrabbed, have potential of a suckish recovery, and don't have as good as DI as some other characters have.

Not that I'm an expert on this particular subject, but aren't Fox and Sheik a couple of the best chaingrabbers? That doesn't exactly help people like Link.

I have no problem comboing a Fox or a Falco or a CFalcon as Link. If you're familiar enough with any character, no matter how slow they are, you could find more than one way to combo them. (With the acception of Bowser who has no true combo-ability.)

If I'm playing against a Peach as Link, then an up-tilt, throw, or even a dash attack at almost any percentage will give me an opportunity to do some juggling. Against a Fox or Falco, they need to already be at a high percentage for me to even be able to start juggling them. AND juggling is one of the better ways for Link to build up damage to begin with. AND in the time it takes to BUILD that damage, *I've* probably taken more than enough damage to be killed by one of those ungodly up-smashes anyway. And THAT'S all assuming that I'm trying to send the character straight up...if they go diagonally, then I need to cross a whole bunch of horizontal distance as well, which Link hardly excels at. Certain kinds of combos might still work, but I'd definitely call it an advantage, at least in Link's example.

And fast-falling has nothing to do with the position of characters on a tier list. Sure, it helps a little, but look at Link, look at CFalcon. They aren't Top Tier. Look at Marth and Peach. They're floaty and High Tier. Tier rankings have to do with the versatility of all their abilities.

Obviously being a fastfaller isn't going to be the singular most important factor in making a tier list, but I still think it goes a long way in magnifying Fox or Falco's advantages over the rest of the cast.

And Link hardly counts as a fastfaller. Granted, he goes down pretty quick when you're in control and can manually fastfall (and, wouldn't you know it, that's a flat-out advantage for his juggling offensive; he's just way more desperate for that advantage than the high tiers), but that doesn't do anything to affect your movement on the way up.

Ultimately, I guess the bottom line is that characters who move up and down very quickly generally require a lot more agility to be able to attack effectively. And agility has historically been limited to the top tiers...usually the exact same people doing the fastfalling. It's got strengths and weaknesses, but if it turns out to be mostly strengths against the low tiers and weaknesses against the high tiers, then it's not exactly what I would call a balancing factor.

 

[Florida]

Not that I'm an expert on this particular subject, but aren't Fox and Sheik a couple of the best chaingrabbers? That doesn't exactly help people like Link.

Sheik is, yes. But Fox's chaingrab is a little easy to DI out of. Plus, if a Fox attempts to chaingrab a Link, the Link could easily just jump out of it. That may not help Link, but it doesn't work against him either!

But don't quote me on that. I'm no Link pro, lol.

 

[Wyvern]

Hm. Here's something kind of interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83DAiT081m0

Check out the Spin Attack at 21 seconds. Bowser only has 12 damage on him, and yet he gets sent most of the way across the stage and falls over. I just tested it, and in Melee, he would have gone about two-thirds that distance (maybe a little less, even--I think Melee's Battlefield stage is a little smaller than Brawl's, which makes it harder to judge) and landed on his feet. At near-zero percentages, if you try to Spin Attack someone in Melee, they'll be back and punish you before you're even done spinning, but there was clearly little to no risk of that happening in this video here.

Could it be that the Spin Attack's base knockback was increased, but it scales more poorly with damage? It might still make for a decent "get off me" type move in that case.

 

[jc1sttwin]

So does that mean people go flying a lot easier in brawl?

 

[Florida]

Hm. Here's something kind of interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83DAiT081m0

Check out the Spin Attack at 21 seconds. Bowser only has 12 damage on him, and yet he gets sent most of the way across the stage and falls over. I just tested it, and in Melee, he would have gone about two-thirds that distance (maybe a little less, even--I think Melee's Battlefield stage is a little smaller than Brawl's, which makes it harder to judge) and landed on his feet. At near-zero percentages, if you try to Spin Attack someone in Melee, they'll be back and punish you before you're even done spinning, but there was clearly little to no risk of that happening in this video here.

Could it be that the Spin Attack's base knockback was increased, but it scales more poorly with damage? It might still make for a decent "get off me" type move in that case.

Hmm, that is interesting. I could have tested so much more at E for All... still, I really don't regret having tons of fun and kicking some butt. And you've got to remember that Link's up-b sends the opponent more downward in Melee, while in Brawl it sends them more upward. Mmhmm! Good-bye spike, hello star K.O.!

 

[Silent_Hill_Crossing]

Could it be that the Spin Attack's base knockback was increased, but it scales more poorly with damage? It might still make for a decent "get off me" type move in that case.

Now that you mention it, I remember someone complaining about the damage, but saying something about the knock back.


It could very well be in that case apply itself to being the "Remove thy self" move.

 

[Wyvern]

The damage, numerically, is exactly the same. It was 12->25% against the Melee Bowser too. The knockback and general trajectory is the only thing that could have changed (comparing only the uncharged spin attack, that is).

 

[Silent_Hill_Crossing]

The damage, numerically, is exactly the same. It was 12->25% against the Melee Bowser too. The knockback and general trajectory is the only thing that could have changed (comparing only the uncharged spin attack, that is).

Hmm.

Well, I'm not exactly sure since I wasn't at E for All. But considering what was said about Link his knock back is quite a bit better. Although I haven't heard much of anything of damage comp. towards it.

Although on second thought again, if it did the same amount [about] to Melee's Bowser, wouldn't that mean it increased in damage, considering how heavy characters work now?

 

[Wyvern]

Heavy characters take the exact same amount of damage (in percentage) as anyone else. They just don't fly as far when they get hit. Even during the zero-knockback frames that some of them (like Ike) have, they still take full damage.

 

[jc1sttwin]

Why Ike the only one heavy?

Link should be he carries all that stuff around

what is heavy on Ike beside his really big sword?

 

[Florida]

Why Ike the only one heavy?

Link should be he carries all that stuff around

what is heavy on Ike beside his really big sword?

The "really big sword" is all he needs, really.

And Wyvern, I know this off-topic, but:

I just saw your Dash Breaking theory-- nice stuff!
Seems really useful!

 

[jc1sttwin]

Just something i noticed

but i'm glad Link is fast

i think i read he is faster in brawl then in melee

 

[Wyvern]

And Wyvern, I know this off-topic, but:

I just saw your Dash Breaking theory-- nice stuff!
Seems really useful!

Thanks. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure now that my original analysis on how it's performed was wrong, because you can see Samus dashing around normally in one of the videos. Of course, I based the whole idea behind its mechanics on hearsay about that tripping-while-dashing thing that Gimpy kept going on about in his thread, which they've now failed to reproduce (as far as I know). So I don't really have anything to go on anymore.

However it's done, though, it seems like it might be reasonably useful for Link, in theory. I can sort of picture running at someone, braking outside of their melee range, and then f-smashing or something. Of course, Link's dash isn't that fast to begin with, so SHFFLing neutral- or forward-aerials might still be better. With his traction, though, it has to at least be better for spacing than wavedashing was. I guess we won't know until someone actually figures out how to do it. With his traction, though, it has to at least be better for spacing than wavedashing was.

 

[Florida]

Thanks. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure now that my original analysis on how it's performed was wrong, because you can see Samus dashing around normally in one of the videos. Of course, I based the whole idea behind its mechanics on hearsay about that tripping-while-dashing thing that Gimpy kept going on about in his thread, which they've now failed to reproduce (as far as I know). So I don't really have anything to go on anymore.

However it's done, though, it seems like it might be reasonably useful for Link, in theory. I can sort of picture running at someone, braking outside of their melee range, and then f-smashing or something. Of course, Link's dash isn't that fast to begin with, so SHFFLing neutral- or forward-aerials might still be better. With his traction, though, it has to at least be better for spacing than wavedashing was. I guess we won't know until someone actually figures out how to do it. With his traction, though, it has to at least be better for spacing than wavedashing was.

I don't see how such a technique would be specifically useful for Link, as it seems like it will be generally useful for all characters. Though, I can see this move being more situation for Link than anything, since he is a slow runner. The best thing I could think of to do, with a technique such as this, is to dsmash your way out of it. Comes out quick, and the Dash Break grants the dsmash even more range than you could get out of it by trying to lure your opponent in (mindgame).

But that's just my thoughts.
It'd be interesting if the activation of this technique would to smash your control stick the opposite direction (like, smash it, lol). That would make sense, since y'know, Mario's seen skidding in that GIF of your advance tech..

 

[Guurahk101]

W00t, go Link. I'm so happy my favorite video game mascot is now where he should be. Purple eh? That's awsome, it'll be a challenge to stick to my favorite Green now. Shadow Link seems cool, but everyone will be using him, so I'll stick to Green/Purple. I have to agree, Links Final Smash is Uber.

 

[jc1sttwin]

I think i'll stick with the Green/White Tunics

how does the whit Tunic look anyways eg?

 

[NES n00b]

To all of you who didn't play as Link in Melee in tournies, you all are wimps.

Thank you.

Oh yeah, and this looks like good news but why with the nerf of the upb? I guess it was too good on casuals.

 

[Silent_Hill_Crossing]

Heavy characters take the exact same amount of damage (in percentage) as anyone else. They just don't fly as far when they get hit. Even during the zero-knockback frames that some of them (like Ike) have, they still take full damage.

Ah, I see.

Well then never mind that idea. XP XD.

 

[heety9]

Taunts:

1. Spins sword and puts it back in its case.
2. Watches a fairy spin around him


...
I think...
from seeing the videos...

 

[Aeramis]

Thanks for the info egruntz. I hope Link is atleast good enough to make mid-high tier.

 

[Eor]

So, Egruntz, how similar was playing Link in Brawl to playing him in Melee? I'm read everything you said was different, but I'm talking about general play style. Because I don't play Melee at all, but I want to go to tournaments with Brawl and actually be competitive with it, so how much help would it be to actually start to learn how to play Link in Melee in order to do so in Brawl?

 

[Florida]

So, Egruntz, how similar was playing Link in Brawl to playing him in Melee? I'm read everything you said was different, but I'm talking about general play style. Because I don't play Melee at all, but I want to go to tournaments with Brawl and actually be competitive with it, so how much help would it be to actually start to learn how to play Link in Melee in order to do so in Brawl?

You know, this is hard to say as well. If I was able to use a GameCube controller at the convention, I could give you a better response. But since I was stuck with the wiimote, my statement might be a little inaccurate.

If you were to practice with him in Melee, it really wouldn't help all too much. Link felt a little more floaty in Brawl (like ALL the characters did) than they were in Melee. And that right there can throw off any practicing. Plus, as I've said, Link has a slightly different style. His Gale Boomerang can be used in many ways, so practicing in Melee would only perfect your aim with it. And some moves that might be situational in Melee (such as the up smash) are all made easy.

Right when I got home, I turned on Melee and started playing as Link. I hated him again.
I don't know, there's just a new feel that's easy to work with.

So you can try practicing with Link in Melee, it'll only increase your skills with him if anything, but probably not by much!

 

[Legolastom]

Hmmm... so basically Link has just gotten better? you think he will change in the tier list at all?

And I made this when I was bored...

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

I can play a viscious Link in Melee, so my Brawl Link should pwn.