Mario Discussion: OP is a bad person

[The Real Sykes]

Ahh pure genius, wish i thought of that lol

 

[Timotheus]

standing near the ledge then making a high jump and doublejump followed by 2 fireballs is a pretty good distance edgeguard against falcon, fox or dk when the opponents character isn't trying a high recovery

 

[Kimimaru]

Hey guys, I need help on the Samus matchup. Her B-air outranges a lot of my attacks and lasts long so it's hard to get in, even with fireballs. What would you suggest doing? I also need help edgeguarding her since that's a pain for me (and everyone I guess, but I feel I'm exceptionally bad at it).

I've tried throwing higher fireballs but her b-air just beats them.

 

[The Star King]

Edgeguarding. If she goes low in preparation to jump -> up-b from below without bombs, then try to intercept early with a dair. If she starts bombing repeatedly from a distance, jump out towards her and try to bair/fair the bomb lag. If she stops bombing to avoid this (which a lot of people will do), you can often accept just the reduced distance she gets and jump back and grab the ledge, and often it will be enough for an edgehog kill.

I'm not that good at the rest so I'm not that comfortable giving advice there. I would personally try to get above her and approach with dairs though, because from the side or below doesn't seem like it would work very well to me. But yeah Samus is pretty decent vs Mario.

 

[Kimimaru]

Good points on edgeguarding. When I was playing your Samus I tried approaching from above but you caught on quickly and started matching my height. I suppose it might be one of those matchups where Mario has to play campy and spam fireballs until he finds an opening to hit Samus and maybe get some U-air chains going. We all know that Samus is much worse in the air facing forwards than backwards so I guess I'll have to use that to my advantage.

 

[B Link]

Edgeguarding. If she goes low in preparation to jump -> up-b from below without bombs, then try to intercept early with a dair. If she starts bombing repeatedly from a distance, jump out towards her and try to bair/fair the bomb lag. If she stops bombing to avoid this (which a lot of people will do), you can often accept just the reduced distance she gets and jump back and grab the ledge, and often it will be enough for an edgehog kill.

I'm not that good at the rest so I'm not that comfortable giving advice there. I would personally try to get above her and approach with dairs though, because from the side or below doesn't seem like it would work very well to me. But yeah Samus is pretty decent vs Mario.

I need to work on edgeguarding samuses, it's hella annoying when they somehow sneak by my edgeguards

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

maybe i should update this

 

[WOTG]

The best way to edgeguard samus is not let her get back to the edge in the first place. Her recovery is easily interceptable with good timing.

 

[B Link]

I guess I just suck at it cuz when I play good samuses they seem to make it back to the stage an awful lot (except on Peach's castle HEH)

 

[WOTG]

Well I'll also add it's easier said than done

 

[Kimimaru]

Which attacks would you say are best for hitting her out of her recovery?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Which attacks would you say are best for hitting her out of her recovery?

Letting samus recover isn't a terrible thing and you can easily KO her regardless. I wouldn't go for any gimps but if there's an opportunity then go for it. Just time your edgehogs and intercept her recovery, she has a huge weak spot during her cooldown of the upb.

 

[Twilight Sparkle]

I find that just falling off the ledge with a neutral air works really well against a samus trying to recover from below the stage with either a second jump or up b. The knockback is enough to kill any chance of her recovering (at mid to higher percentages).

Otherwise, I find even d-smash failing to stop her recovery often. Fsmash tilted down works a bit better if timed right.

 

[Uncle-Kenny]

Ignore.

16chars

 

[weedwack]

How many different knockback levels are there to uair? Is timing the only determinant?

What options do I have when someone DIs behind my dair?

General advice on ledge guarding pika?

In the process of switching to a Mario main.

 

[Kovaz]

So I'm fairly new to competitive smash, playing in a small local tourney this weekend, and I know the best three players besides me all play kirby. So, I've got a few questions about Mario v Kirby

1. How should I approach a kirby who's above me and likes to fast fall into dair? At high %s I just up-smash and thank them for the free kill, but at low percents I at best trade and end up in the same spot. Do i just get out of there and try to engage at a better angle?

2. What should my go-to be when kirby's at like 100%? I know kirby's just going to side-smash repeatedly when I'm at a high %, but I'm not sure what the best way for me to finish him off is?

3. I've always had trouble figuring out when to grab, so when should I try to work it in? I feel like after I dair and they shield works reasonably well, but I don't really know, and I know I need to use it more.

 

[ballin4life]

So I'm fairly new to competitive smash, playing in a small local tourney this weekend, and I know the best three players besides me all play kirby. So, I've got a few questions about Mario v Kirby

1. How should I approach a kirby who's above me and likes to fast fall into dair? At high %s I just up-smash and thank them for the free kill, but at low percents I at best trade and end up in the same spot. Do i just get out of there and try to engage at a better angle?

Make it seem like they can hit you with their dair, but then dodge out of the way and then come back and hit them (beware the utilt if they reach the ground though). But yeah generally I wouldn't try to take Kirby's dair head on with Mario.

2. What should my go-to be when kirby's at like 100%? I know kirby's just going to side-smash repeatedly when I'm at a high %, but I'm not sure what the best way for me to finish him off is?

Pretty much anything will kill (usmashes/grabs) or set up an edgeguard (aerials) at 100%. If you know kirby is going to side smash you just bait it and then when it misses jump and dair -> grab them or something. Basically if you know what they are going to do make sure you come up with a plan against that tactic.

3. I've always had trouble figuring out when to grab, so when should I try to work it in? I feel like after I dair and they shield works reasonably well, but I don't really know, and I know I need to use it more.

Grab is good anytime you can get it. You can grab them out of a dair even if it hits btw, and you should also be able to grab them if you hit their shield with other aerials besides dair.

Also throw lots of fireballs whenever it's safe to do so.

 

[prisonchild]

try to get above them before they can get above you, it helps with throwing fireballs too.

 

[Sangoku]

How many different knockback levels are there to uair? Is timing the only determinant?

Can't resist: roughly 84'000 different knockbacks (4*1000*12+3*1000*12).

Determinants are: staleness level, facing character, percentage of the facing character, normal or weak uair.

Now more seriously: there are only two kind of uair hitbox: strong and weak. It only depends on the timing (it's strong for some time, then it gets weak), but since position depends on the time, you could think of it as the position changes. I mean, Mario does his rotation thing, so if you try to hit someone behind you, the time needed to reach this position will make your hitbox weak.

What options do I have when someone DIs behind my dair?

1) Follow their DI with a standing/retreating dair.

2) Don't dair.

General advice on ledge guarding pika?

Others will know this better, but here's what I think.

Try to predict how he'll UpB. There are basically two ways a pika can UpB: sweetspotting or high to get faraway (DL's platforms, middle platform of Hyrule, etc). I like to try to interrupt the trajectory with a double jump nair for example, but if you think he'll sweetspot and you're onstage, you can also dtilt/dsmash, whatever. Oh and don't forget fireballs in the beginning (before he second jumps).

 

[weedwack]

Which of mario's aerials has the greatest horizontal knockback?

 

[The Star King]

Can't resist: roughly 84'000 different knockbacks (4*1000*12+3*1000*12).

Lol, I love you

What options do I have when someone DIs behind my dair?

Nair

 

[ballin4life]

totally didn't account for extra chars (giant DK, MM, and even lol MH - i think the polygons are the same knockback as their counterparts)

also 9 handicap levels and 150 different damage ratios

 

[The Star King]

Also didn't account for when different situations come out to the same knockback when plugged into the knockback formula

 

[Sangoku]

The Star King's remark is valid, however ballin is just nitpicking. I was only talking about the general conditions.

Talking about master hand, having it in hitbox mode is hilarious.

Let's go back to Mario though, it's his thread after all.

 

[ballin4life]

The Star King's remark is valid, however ballin is just nitpicking. I was only talking about the general conditions.

i'm not sure if you're being ironic intentionally


you also neglected more specific cases like when the opponent is in a tornado or grab from another player or has respawn invincibility or is shielding

 

[The Star King]

I don't see how that's ironic. He was obviously only talking about things that would happen in competitive Smash (no metal Mario or whatever, no damage ratio, no handicap).

Those are all 0 (except grab?) so that's 1 knockback level. lol

 

[ballin4life]

complaining about nitpicking is the ironic part given his original post

although i also just noticed that he said "general conditions" while simultaneously saying anything outside of specific scenarios is "nitpicking"


there's nonzero knockback on shield


i didn't mention DI before either


also on the "serious" conversation - there are definitely at least 4 "kinds" of hitbox for uair. (see - you can legitimately complain about nitpicking on this one)

 

[The Star King]

there's nonzero knockback on shield

No. Shield pushing =/= knockback.

i didn't mention DI before either

Knockback refers to the distance traveled AFTER the DI window. Are we not allowed to say Fox's shine has "set knockback" anymore because DI exists? lol

also on the "serious" conversation - there are definitely at least 4 "kinds" of hitbox for uair.

No. I'm guessing you're thinking of reverse trajectories (e.g., weak knockback forwards vs weak knockback backwards), but that is a universal traits of hitboxes, not extra kinds of hitboxes (e.g., Fox's shine's left and right trajectories come from only one hitbox).

 

[ballin4life]

No. Shield pushing =/= knockback.

it's just a different "kind"

Knockback refers to the distance traveled AFTER the DI window. Are we not allowed to say Fox's shine has "set knockback" anymore because DI exists? lol

the distance traveled after the DI window can be greatly affected by DI ... (walls, ground)

ooh that's another one - standing vs air vs lying on the ground knockback

No. I'm guessing you're thinking of reverse trajectories (e.g., weak knockback forwards vs weak knockback backwards), but that is a universal traits of hitboxes, not extra kinds of hitboxes (e.g., Fox's shine's left and right trajectories come from only one hitbox).

conceptually i'd think of those as separate because they do different things. i mean, there is some dividing line between the "normal" part and the "reverse" part, right?

 

[The Star King]

it's just a different "kind"

*sigh* only you would say this for the sake of disagreeing, seriously. The game doesn't treat the two remotely alike. It doesn't use the knockback formula at all. The trajectories of the moves don't matter. % of shielder doesn't matter. It's just not even close to the same.

the distance traveled after the DI window can be greatly affected by DI ... (walls, ground)

ooh that's another one - standing vs air vs lying on the ground knockback

Wall is a good point (there's also crouch canceling), but standing/air/lying on ground don't affect knockback - lying on the ground affects % dealt, but knockback is calculated with the % after being hit (this is a fact, don't try to argue about this)

conceptually i'd think of those as separate because they do different things. i mean, there is some dividing line between the "normal" part and the "reverse" part, right?

The dividing line is which part of the "hurtbox" the recepient is hit on (left or right). So no, not separate hitboxes.

 

[ballin4life]

*sigh* only you would say this for the sake of disagreeing, seriously. The game doesn't treat the two remotely alike. It doesn't use the knockback formula at all. The trajectories of the moves don't matter. % of shielder doesn't matter. It's just not even close to the same.

You know I'm just ****ing with you, right?

Wall is a good point (there's also crouch canceling), but standing/air/lying on ground don't affect knockback - lying on the ground affects % dealt, but knockback is calculated with the % after being hit (this is a fact, don't try to argue about this)

I thought about mentioning ceilings / walls just being in the way (without DI) too .

The dividing line is which part of the "hurtbox" the recepient is hit on (left or right). So no, not separate hitboxes.

Ah, I understand. Although I think I misspoke before anyway. Mario's uair has only one hitbox that is rotated in a circle, right?

 

[Kimimaru]

It's a semicircle starting from 270 (?) degrees and going up to 90 degrees and maybe a bit further.

 

[The Star King]

Every time I see this thread on the character discussion slot on front, I see it as "Mario Discussion: OP (as in overpowered)" and lol every time (Mario sux)

 

[Kimimaru]

I actually find it easier to do a running D-air -> U-air with A instead of R. Switching to R just for that specific technique really breaks what my muscle memory is used to so R would be useful only if you already use it for of your attacks.

 

[Kimimaru]

Sorry for the double post, but any advice on the Fox matchup? I have trouble getting in.

 

[clubbadubba]

I don't have any specific advice other than watch nintendude vs firo from apex 2012

 

[Timotheus]

Sorry for the double post, but any advice on the Fox matchup? I have trouble getting in.

use platforms to avoid the laserspam. learn how high his jumps go. a full c-jump to the side is perfect for the side platforms on dreamland. use high jump and doublejump with two fireballs for a distance edgeguard. if he's off the stage and below you edgeguard him with a non-fastfall dair when his firefox isn't out yet! once you got him do everything too keep him in the air with uair, fair, bair or upb. don't spam fireballs. a few well placed fireballs work much better on the most fox players. his uair is one of his best countermoves for a combobreaker

 

[Kimimaru]

Any advice on the Kirby matchup? That's my worst one by far.

He just seems to have frame advantage over me on basically everything, plus basically all of his aerials outrange mine. What should I be doing in neutral?

 

[asianaussie]

watching your opponent's actions so that when you lose and cp to pika you'll have a bit of an upper hand

in seriousness, probably just throwing fireballs and zoning with cautious u-airs and f-airs, i don't think you can actually beat out his hitboxes head-on, so you have to fight his n-airs/b-airs from above, etc

 

[Kimimaru]

I was speaking with Frogles yesterday and he told me to bait Kirby into doing something. Does anyone know a good way to do this?