Marth doesn't impress at E3

[Gameboi834]

ITT Marth mains feel what other players have felt for fifteen years.

 

[ACDC]

If you like marth, keep Marth and have fun. If you don't like Marth but only used him because high-tier, then it shouldn't bother you to switch characters. Personally I use Falcon, Y/Link, Ness, Yoshi and Ganondorf throughout all the smash games not because high-tier but because I have fun with them. If I get good that's just a bonus. From my experience you don't choose a character. The character chooses you. So don't worry about it.

 

[TL?]

If you like marth, keep Marth and have fun. If you don't like Marth but only used him because high-tier, then it shouldn't bother you to switch characters. Personally I use Falcon, Y/Link, Ness, Yoshi and Ganondorf throughout all the smash games not because high-tier but because I have fun with them. If I get good that's just a bonus. From my experience you don't choose a character. The character chooses you. So don't worry about it.

Well it looks like a character that is the slowest and clunkiest version of himself has chosen me, so I will worry about it.

 

[ACDC]

Well it looks like a character that is the slowest and clunkiest version of himself has chosen me, so I will worry about it.

If you can't get good with him, he hasn't chosen you. Kinda like Pichu.

 

[Shaya]

ITT Marth mains feel what other players have felt for fifteen years.

No need for posts like this on the Marth boards. Mkay?

If you can't get good with him, he hasn't chosen you. Kinda like Pichu.

Marth's a culture. I'm sure every one of our loyal sect will play him in Smash 4, but if he really is mediocre, his usage will wain. He's been high tier in two games, but wasn't easy in either (especially in Brawl [in a contemporary/cohort type of way, not technical way]). People enjoyed him for his play patterns which gave rewards for precision (well timed fairs using spacing techniques of dashing, retreating jumps, forward jumps, your mid air jump, fast falls, DB1, etc) in a way fully "counterable" by competent opponents (wouldn't be the first time a nerf like that happens though). I'm sure we'll put significant work into things, but if Marth has no rewarding gameplay due to these nerfs, we won't enjoy him (simple things like no follow ups on Fair at all, ever is going to feel awful).

Most of my concerns on his viability is based off a bug that will lose him stocks (RCO). Marth's character design is otherwise solid.

 

[Gameboi834]

No need for posts like this on the Marth boards. Mkay?

I don't know what you mean by "posts like this", but being arbitrarily condescending about it is not something I feel comfortable about.

 

[Shaya]

I don't know what you mean by "posts like this", but being arbitrarily condescending about it is not something I feel comfortable about.

Posts which the only purpose of them is to be antagonistic and/or patronising. Your post added absolutely nothing to the conversation and without even the prior two considerations ("trolling") is otherwise spam.

Arbitrarily condescending? Not at all. Don't expect this place (being the Marth boards) to be run like other boards.

 

[Gameboi834]

Posts which the only purpose of them is to be antagonistic and/or patronising.

Well then, thank you for telling me what the purpose of my post was. Clearly I meant to be patronizing without even knowing it; I now see the error of my ways.

I was pointing out that Marth's nerfs may not necessarily be a bad thing for the rest of the community who have felt that their character nerfs have left them at an unfair advantage or caused them to lose any competitive edge at all, as is the nature of an evolving fighting game. And, even then, Marth mains will have a motivational reason to master the character further as other nerfed players have had to do which, if anything, is a very uplifting and positive thing.
But no, please. Interpret my posts as you see fit. Obviously I don't know what I'm saying.

 

[Shaya]

If you wish to talk further about this, do so in PMs. You could've posted your main paragraph ("may not necessarily be a bad thing...") there without any contention, but you chose not to. For whatever reason you chose not to, it's not acceptable here. If my interpretation of your tone was antagonistic and patronising, and you're going to call me out for using adjectives (you know, things which tend to have subjection connotations, although I'm near certain I'm appropriate with my words here) while accusing me of being arbitrary and condescending? My next "interpretation of your "posts" based off all of this is going to be even more negative, and although not the intent, to you, more condescending.

Now, you can take my original post as lightheartedly saying, "don't post crap", rather than sending you a warning, or this can go further down the path you seem to wish to take it. It's up to you.

 

[Ultinarok]

People have been saying that Marth's range has decreased and his sword has gotten shorter, but to me it seems a bit longer...any confirmation?

Either way, it seems that Marth isn't that nerfed, he just plays differently, kind of like how Melee Marth and Falco play differently than Brawl Marth and Falco. They got some nerfs and some buffs, but overall remained about as good or almost as good as before. The same may very well be the case with Marth. The only complete nerf he's experienced is his landing lag. Fair is slower but is a better KO move. His specials all have more kill power. He deals damage as well as before, and his throws are just KO options instead of combo setters.

All of these things will force Marth players to play differently, yes. But he could still be very good, he just seems to have a more aggro-punishment style that favors defense and landing big hits with good spacing. If his range is buffed, which it looks like it is (yet others say its reduced, that's why I asked), then he could play a great defense game and an awesome edge guard game even better than in Brawl. He just can't short hop fair or spam aerials as easily anymore.

 

[CommanderRin]

I feel that we shouldn't worry too much about Marth.

This IS a demo, and very likely was created a few months before E3 (Probably not the exact same engine we'll have for actual smash 4)

Look at all akward knockbacks as well as Sakurai saying he was afraid the game would crash durimg the invitationals (it froze during Treehouse).

 

[ACDC]

No need for posts like this on the Marth boards. Mkay?



Marth's a culture. I'm sure every one of our loyal sect will play him in Smash 4, but if he really is mediocre, his usage will wain. He's been high tier in two games, but wasn't easy in either (especially in Brawl [in a contemporary/cohort type of way, not technical way]). People enjoyed him for his play patterns which gave rewards for precision (well timed fairs using spacing techniques of dashing, retreating jumps, forward jumps, your mid air jump, fast falls, DB1, etc) in a way fully "counterable" by competent opponents (wouldn't be the first time a nerf like that happens though). I'm sure we'll put significant work into things, but if Marth has no rewarding gameplay due to these nerfs, we won't enjoy him (simple things like no follow ups on Fair at all, ever is going to feel awful).

Most of my concerns on his viability is based off a bug that will lose him stocks (RCO). Marth's character design is otherwise solid.

As someone who regularly uses low tiers and still tries to be competitive with melee locally, I feel very different. But I understand your point.

 

[Shaya]

Well a lot of what has people enjoy "lower tier" characters are their rewarding play patterns, even if they're unreliable/"gimmicks" or the like (as people tend to come to see them), when you pull it off its one of those "it was all worth it for this!".

Ness in Brawl is a really solid example. He's a great character with great moves, great patterns that feel great to execute, but isn't widely played due to not-even-as-abused-as-it-could-be "bug" that gave most of the cast free kill moves out of a grab or chain grabs. His tools of back throw are fantastic, if you get a pk-fire you feel amazing, if you land a dair, everyone's going to know it, proper use of his "different" double jump and the like also gives satisfaction to the player.

Marth getting lag on fair is pretty detrimental to the play patterns Marth players have developed over two games. I'm sure we'll get other things, especially if players need to respect our counter for example (if it actually is 50% of damage + potential to kill) than the risk reward for that is suddenly skewed in a way that we can force other mix ups/play patterns. But yeah, with current Marth paradigms, things are going to be icky, for a while at least. Oh and RCO.

 

[ACDC]

Well a lot of what has people enjoy "lower tier" characters are their rewarding play patterns, even if they're unreliable/"gimmicks" or the like (as people tend to come to see them), when you pull it off its one of those "it was all worth it for this!".

Ness in Brawl is a really solid example. He's a great character with great moves, great patterns that feel great to execute, but isn't widely played due to not-even-as-abused-as-it-could-be "bug" that gave most of the cast free kill moves out of a grab or chain grabs. His tools of back throw are fantastic, if you get a pk-fire you feel amazing, if you land a dair, everyone's going to know it, proper use of his "different" double jump and the like also gives satisfaction to the player.

Marth getting lag on fair is pretty detrimental to the play patterns Marth players have developed over two games. I'm sure we'll get other things, especially if players need to respect our counter for example (if it actually is 50% of damage + potential to kill) than the risk reward for that is suddenly skewed in a way that we can force other mix ups/play patterns. But yeah, with current Marth paradigms, things are going to be icky, for a while at least. Oh and RCO.

Don't worry about it. If you don't like the new Marth you will forget about him very quickly. What we could worry about is the landing lag

 

[TL?]

People have been saying that Marth's range has decreased and his sword has gotten shorter, but to me it seems a bit longer...any confirmation?

Either way, it seems that Marth isn't that nerfed, he just plays differently, kind of like how Melee Marth and Falco play differently than Brawl Marth and Falco. They got some nerfs and some buffs, but overall remained about as good or almost as good as before. The same may very well be the case with Marth. The only complete nerf he's experienced is his landing lag. Fair is slower but is a better KO move. His specials all have more kill power. He deals damage as well as before, and his throws are just KO options instead of combo setters.

All of these things will force Marth players to play differently, yes. But he could still be very good, he just seems to have a more aggro-punishment style that favors defense and landing big hits with good spacing. If his range is buffed, which it looks like it is (yet others say its reduced, that's why I asked), then he could play a great defense game and an awesome edge guard game even better than in Brawl. He just can't short hop fair or spam aerials as easily anymore.

dtilt looks like it might be shorter, but I'm not 100% sure. Everything else seems about the same reach from my 2 minutes of using him, and watching videos.

 

[Shaya]

Videos of dtilt looked shorter, I agree. It definitely doesn't look like he reaches out his arm very far to use the move (like he does in the others). Could be seen as a buff in some ways if he isn't extending his arms out as far.

 

[Cassio]

Most of my concerns on his viability is based off a bug that will lose him stocks (RCO). Marth's character design is otherwise solid.

Ive been told RCO lag is gone directly from the mouths of E3 attendees. It certainly seems that way from videos ive seen too.

I have a feeling even if Marth is "nerfed" he wont really be truly nerfed. Some characters simply have solid designs, and if youre someone like melee Pikachu or brawl Fox you'll struggle more than other smash installments but still be capable of success with the right amount of effort.

Also Ive heard rumors somewhere that bair got a buff? Cant remember exactly so Im not sure about it.

 

[Ultinarok]

Ive been told RCO lag is gone directly from the mouths of E3 attendees. It certainly seems that way from videos ive seen too.

I have a feeling even if Marth is "nerfed" he wont really be truly nerfed. Some characters simply have solid designs, and if youre someone like melee Pikachu or brawl Fox you'll struggle more than other smash installments but still be capable of success with the right amount of effort.

Agreed, some fighters will always do well. Fox, Marth and likely ZSS are among these. Its just how they're designed. While other characters always perform poorly or at best average by design, like Link, Samus and old style Bowser. Not that a well-designed character can't be terrible, or a poorly-designed one be good (we may see a whole new Samus and Link now), its just much harder to butcher/boost them.

 

[Shorts]

Welcome to how Zelda mains have felt ever since her appearance.

 

[Shaya]

Marth's getting solid frame data nerfs in two consecutive games. It definitely drains the character's potential.
From Pika being top tier to now, he doesn't have a sex kick back air, a broken up tilt/up smash, a glide in his recovery, different up air properties, and significantly nerfed range on his ground moves (including grab, it was dumb in 64) as a comparator to other characters in the cast (Link didn't exactly outrange Pika in Smash64). Pika's still been solid in every game though, favoured a lot in Brawl because of his long term guaranteed grab follow ups AND chain grabs on a lot of the cast. I would say a lot of Brawl's high tiers have less to do with overall capabilities, and more to do with their guaranteed follow ups from grabs (Marth is pretty lucky to have grab in Brawl, let me tell you).

I think it's safe to say baseline characters like Fox, Pika and Marth are going to be middle tier or better (lest unlucky no chance matchups). But even then, this isn't the case for Fox, who's borderline high tier in a game where half the top tiers can 0-death him. If Pika retained even half of his 64 properties (i.e. revert those 'nerfs') and had brawl CGs? He'd be tippity top tier. Fox without getting easy-****ed by everyone would go even or better with everyone except maybe ICs (well if sopo didn't have solo cg, a lot of characters wouldn't lose to ICs, but let's assume death cg conditions still), as we see in his match up with Meta Knight at the highest level.
Marth has been good in melee because he ****s spacies. He's been very solid in Brawl because he's got solid grab options on a solid portion of the cast. Marth would've lost a lot more times to Falco over all of its years in high level situations if it wasn't for his death cg at 0%, Marth would've probably lost every set with MK ever if he didn't have a grab release option. etc etc
If Marth is losing the bull ****, and getting nerfs, I doubt him being overly viable (high tier). Perhaps the gap between top to low tiers will be smaller than in previous smash games, and although harder, Marth's strengths of range will be able to make him competitive with probably a 45:55 MU spread (maybe slightly worse against top tiers) against the entire cast. We can dream there won't be anything excessively dumb.

Ive been told RCO lag is gone directly from the mouths of E3 attendees. It certainly seems that way from videos ive seen too.

It was definitely in best buy version according to many sources. Are you certain from the versions for E3?

 

[Cassio]

Well I guess it wasnt quite fair to marth either. Pikachu perhaps needed nerfs from 64 and Fox from melee. But it could still work out in the end. Crouch cancelling in melee caused Marth a lot of issues he hasnt had to deal with since, and from the sounds of it projectiles overall are recieving big nerfs which'll benefit a character like Marth strongly (would Marth need CGs on Falco if he couldnt cancel his laser and CG too?). If Marth remains a character with the best useful disjointed range its hard to see him doing poorly, though I think that may depend on what happens with MK too. Actually I think the future of Marth could depend a lot on how MK turns out.

It was definitely in best buy version according to many sources. Are you certain from the versions for E3?

It was either rapture or TO Joe Id asked about it. I shouldve tested it for pika but didnt even think about it for some reason.

 

[Shaya]

Well I guess it wasnt quite fair to marth either. Pikachu perhaps needed nerfs from 64 and Fox from melee. But it could still work out in the end. Crouch cancelling in melee caused Marth a lot of issues he hasnt had to deal with since, and from the sounds of it projectiles overall are recieving big nerfs which'll benefit a character like Marth strongly (would Marth need CGs on Falco if he couldnt cancel his laser and CG too?). If Marth remains a character with the best useful disjointed range its hard to see him doing poorly, though I think that may depend on what happens with MK too. Actually I think the future of Marth could depend a lot on how MK turns out.

I'm not fussed how Marth turns out as long as there isn't anything "stupid". RCO I think is stupid. Low percent stuff was a problem for Marth in Brawl too (untippered aerials not being safe on hit till like 30-40% :{), but yeah not dealing with that was a significant engine buff to him. How the engine ends up could favour him too, we don't know. Basically all I'm speculating is general strength reduction, he'll likely always remain solid, just as Pika/Fox have/do (although yeah, Fox's base line is pretty exceptional imo).

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Fire Emblem is probably the only series in which I really enjoy and would like to play characters from. Everyone else in Nintendo franchaise I never really cared for too much. Brawl Snake/Falco was simply the best fun. Marth melee wins fun and FE character.

I was underwhelmed by the fact I could not SD double fair ;_:

 

[Shorts]

HIS THROWS HAD ABSURDLY HIGH KNOCKBACK, HE WAS FLOATY AND SLOW AS HELL AND HIS RANGE IS WTFROFLWHY.

UGH x 10000

This game may yet not suck, but Marth? Does.

Don't say he sucks! Marth is going to be good, don't you worry!

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

One thing to note is that N-Air still feels great. While playing the demo, it felt like one of the few moves that actually packed a punch when tipped.

Also, i feel like the tone around F-Air is a tad too negative. Yes, it got nerfed but it's still viable imo. Just riskier. A carefully placed rising f-air in a short hop seems like a decent option all around.

I think all that is going to be required to make marth fine is a but more discipline and patience from us.

 

[BJN39]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0ej06eP_uY

All y'all probably already saw this "Marth Moveset" video, but I'm putting it here anyways in case someone missed it.

Go on with your conversations. Though I'm not Marth main or second, these changes interest me... > , > I like lurking here right now.

 

[negativeX]

As long as he remains the fastest sword user he's still probably going to be one of the best spacers in the game. He may have been nerfed but he's one of the hardest characters to completely cripple.

 

[Freak Ability 6]

I feel like Marth mains will stay loyal with him, but we're going to have to change up our strategy because of the change of strength, speed, and knock back in his move set. Did you see the strength his counter? Like WTF!!!

 

[Mysteltainn]

Dang, poor fellow. If Marth got hit this hard, then Meta Knight should just be cut from the game then (seriously, what are they going to even do with him anyway? He'll basically need a whole new move-set because it was so broken).

 

[TL?]

Agreed, some fighters will always do well. Fox, Marth and likely ZSS are among these. Its just how they're designed. While other characters always perform poorly or at best average by design, like Link, Samus and old style Bowser. Not that a well-designed character can't be terrible, or a poorly-designed one be good (we may see a whole new Samus and Link now), its just much harder to butcher/boost them.

I wouldn't say always. Some characters have designs that lend themselves to being strong mechanically. Marth has this to some extent since he was a fairly quick character with very good disjointed reach. His special mechanic of the tipper almost guarantees him to not be lacking at least some KO options. But it is always possible for them to seriously tone it down, although doing so would downplay what makes him unique. He is also not tied to an inherent weakness like being a big target(Bowser, DK) or having a flawed recovery/up b(Yoshi, Ness). But they could still make him bad, it just takes more nerfs. Sheik is one of those characters that by design seems to lead to being a strong character often, and she was pretty lacking in brawl due to serious nerfs in KO power and not meshing well with the mechanics of the game. It could happen to Marth, especially when you consider that not only is marth being slowed down, but most other characters are being sped up. He's still got that reach though, and the game can easily change from now until the game actually comes out so we'll just have to wait and see how he turns out.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I wouldn't say always. Some characters have designs that lend themselves to being strong mechanically. Marth has this to some extent since he was a fairly quick character with very good disjointed reach. His special mechanic of the tipper almost guarantees him to not be lacking at least some KO options. But it is always possible for them to seriously tone it down, although doing so would downplay what makes him unique. He is also not tied to an inherent weakness like being a big target(Bowser, DK) or having a flawed recovery/up b(Yoshi, Ness). But they could still make him bad, it just takes more nerfs. Sheik is one of those characters that by design seems to lead to being a strong character often, and she was pretty lacking in brawl due to serious nerfs in KO power and not meshing well with the mechanics of the game. It could happen to Marth, especially when you consider that not only is marth being slowed down, but most other characters are being sped up. He's still got that reach though, and the game can easily change from now until the game actually comes out so we'll just have to wait and see how he turns out.

Will reach be enough though? Marth has always excelled because he had great reach while being able to keep up in speed with the faster characters. This game makes Marth's main move, forward air, bad. Its slower and laggier. Marth still has his RCO. His Dancing Blade is laggier now. Forward smash is laggier. Throws are laggier and too strong for any combo potential. Everything about Marth now is a hella lot slower.

 

[Shaya]

As long as he remains the fastest sword user he's still probably going to be one of the best spacers in the game. He may have been nerfed but he's one of the hardest characters to completely cripple.

He wasn't the fastest sword user though.

 

[victinivcreate1]

He wasn't the fastest sword user though.

Lol Meta Knight da bess. Meta Knight da bess, now Lucario is mad, Falco he be mad, Dedede is mad, but TKD aint mad because Meta Knight da bess.

 

[negativeX]

He wasn't the fastest sword user though.

I'm not even sure if I count meta knight as a character anymore .

 

[GOofyGV]

I'm not even sure if I count meta knight as a character anymore .

He was not just a character indeed. He was the god in brawl

 

[Altais]

Hmm, Marth definitely looks slower this time around, judging by the gameplay videos. I really hope they speed him up in the final version. If not, I might just have to find a new main yet again.

 

[Chukkaque]

I dont know, in my opinion Brawl was all about "air" battles, and Melee was about speed and tech skills, but Smash 4 really feels like a game that is Ground vs Air. As much as it sucks knowing Marth may not be a great air brawler any more, I am excited to relearn one of my favorite characters and see whats new for him.

 

[The Curious Volnutt]

I saw a Ken vs Milktea video and Marth wasn't too shabby.
Though he might have just seemed good because of Ken, who knows at this point.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

Even if Marth isn't as good as before. I'm still using him, I'm just so familiar with his style by this point, I started the style with Roy for crying out loud and the two are the reason I got into Fire Emblem.

Plus this Marth design is my favorite by far. He may not be that high on my favorite fire emblem lord list but in smash his style is just so fun to me along with many others styles.

I don't use him because he is high tier I use him because he is fun and that Fire Emblem has become my favorite Nintendo franchise since Melee

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Because you can't frame trap with Fair or easy F-throw > F-smash or D-throw / F-throw chain to tipper F-smash / Spike on space animals doesn't mean Marth is bad. He can still Full hop double Fair, he can auto cancel SH Fair, his Nair and Uair have low landing lag, his Bair is hella buffed along with a reduction on landing with his Dolphin Slash.

Marth isn't bad, players are just going to have to be more creative.