Marth Frame Data

[Shaya]

He goes and buys a very expensive 60 fps recording Camera, does an action and records it, shouts it to the computer and goes frame by frame to see what happens.

Stupidly he could have kept his 30fps capture card and just done it in training mode at 1/2 speed.

GG Steel.

 

[Steel]

I'm using a 60 fps camera.

@shaya, I've had it for a few years.

 

[Steel]

DS hits on frame 5, all the other stuff coming soon

 

[3xSwords]

Where is the hitbox for it? And what made you switch it back?

 

[Steel]

right in front of you

what made me switch it? i tested it against a cpu lol

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Why are you such a beast?

<3 dude.

 

[Steel]

Everything is done.

Let me know if you see a mistake.

 

[feardragon64]

Missing stuff for bair:

SHFF Bair Lag:
SH Bair Fast Falled Lag:

And what 3x said. Nair is confusing the **** out of me right now.
But I assume that the other hitboxes had the same shield hitstun?

 

[3xSwords]

Fully explain nair to me... I need to know exactly how Marth's only frame advantage move works. Also if there are 4 hitboxes for nair should there not be 4 instances of shield hitstun?

Edit: Wait... are you saying nair only has frame advantage when you hit him and not the shield???? I thought I was on to something again... GOD **** IT Steel.

 

[bludhoundz]

What exactly is the differnece between

SHFF Nair
and
SH Nair Fast Falled?

 

[feardragon64]

What exactly is the differnece between

SHFF Nair
and
SH Nair Fast Falled?

The order. SHFF means you short hop, then you fast fall as you nair.
SHNairFF means you short hop and nair(rising nair) and then fast fall.

That's what I gathered anyways.

 

[Steel]

fixed missing bair stuff

 

[Steel]

Fully explain nair to me... I need to know exactly how Marth's only frame advantage move works. Also if there are 4 hitboxes for nair should there not be 4 instances of shield hitstun?

Edit: Wait... are you saying nair only has frame advantage when you hit him and not the shield???? I thought I was on to something again... GOD **** IT Steel.

Yes if you hit (not the shield) with the first slash of the nair you should have like 19 or so frames to do something.

There probably is 4 instances of shield stun, but they are so hard to set up and are really just not practical.

And yes fear that's right.

 

[feardragon64]

Yes if you hit (not the shield) with the first slash of the nair you should have like 19 or so frames to do something.

There probably is 4 instances of shield stun, but they are so hard to set up and are really just not practical.

And yes fear that's right.

Wait....if you have a 19 frame advantage and the landing lag is only 8 frames if you only land after the first one comes out(because it's SHFF Nair), that leaves 11 frames to do anything you want. By that logic, if fsmash comes out on frame 10, you can combo the first hit of nair into a grab, jab, ftilt, utilt, dtilt, fsmash, and a dsmash....
o_o?

And depending how long it takes to SH, a tippered dair(rofl).

 

[3xSwords]

Holy ****. Perfect uair is a valid attack on shields now. Fair>perfect uair FTW!!!!!!

Edit: Also does the landing lag differ for an aerial if you landed in the middle of its attacking animation but didn't FF it?

 

[bludhoundz]

The order. SHFF means you short hop, then you fast fall as you nair.
SHNairFF means you short hop and nair(rising nair) and then fast fall.

That's what I gathered anyways.

That's what it seemed like to me but I wasn't sure.

Thanks.

Edit: great stuff Steel.

 

[Steel]

Wait....if you have a 19 frame advantage and the landing lag is only 8 frames if you only land after the first one comes out(because it's SHFF Nair), that leaves 11 frames to do anything you want. By that logic, if fsmash comes out on frame 10, you can combo the first hit of nair into a grab, jab, ftilt, utilt, dtilt, fsmash, and a dsmash....
o_o?

And depending how long it takes to SH, a tippered dair(rofl).

Well 19 frames is if you don't fast fall at all, that lag is just 3 frames. (or maybe like 1 actually, i dunno im tired)

but yeah, all that stuff is legit i believe. the most used is DS currently.

 

[Steel]

edited because i am spreading false information

*crunches up this post

 

[3xSwords]

What's the shield hitstun for first hit nair? It may also become a valid move... although I'm guessing it's around 1 frame or something so my hopes aren't that high.

 

[Steel]

The shield hit stun sucks.. its like non existant, dont worry about it.

Junk just confirmed that this ***** vs human opponents. Only downside is you have to get pretty close to your opponent, but there are opportunities for everything.

 

[feardragon64]

The shield hit stun sucks.. its like non existant, dont worry about it.

Junk just confirmed that this ***** vs human opponents. Only downside is you have to get pretty close to your opponent, but there are opportunities for everything.

I'm a bit confused. What's "this"? Uairs?

 

[Steel]

first hit nair >_>

 

[3xSwords]

I'm guessing nair, uair is good but only works at low %'s, while nair works at all %'s pretty much.

edit: is perfect uair a valid move to hit a shield with? I have to say yes on this one. What about you?

 

[Steel]

I don't understand your question. You mean a tip'd up air? Either way you have to get pretty close to your opponent to hit with it

 

[feardragon64]

Too bad the first hit of nair combos are hard as **** to pull off on the one character I want it to work on.

****ing mk's shortness....

 

[3xSwords]

Basically a tipped uair right before you hit the ground so that only the first hitbox comes out. The way my math works out is you have 2 frames difference between shield hitstun and sword stun. You land on the next frame and then have 3 frames landing lag (since not FF'd) so 4 frames.

Now you are at a 2 frame disadvantage... however, a grab takes, I'm guessing, 5-7 frames (character dependent) which is fairly accurate and any upB's OOS take 5 or more frames before they hit you. Rolling and spotdodging activate at frame 2 which means you will have 1 frame advantage overall if your opponent performs his best options. Not to mention DS which grants 2 frame advantage due to immediate invincibility... Well sound legit?

 

[Steel]

Requires your opponent to take a completely defensive position once you jump at them.

Speaking of defensive positions, you pretty have the advantage on your opponent whether they block the first hit nair or eat it. Either way you have like 0 frames of lag, and while they suffer the minimal shield stun lag you can probably grab them (ill need to test this). If they don't shield, just hit them with an up smash or something.

 

[3xSwords]

Not necessarily fair > uair will catch them, just don't spam it like always

Also nair... it's landing lag is probably 1... I believe in melee it auto canceled so yeah same here maybe? But grabbing them after a first hit nair probably isn't the best option. I would still go with the normal roll away or spotdodge option first then after conditioning them use the grab.

Yes Steel test it... Test it alll!!!!!!!

 

[feardragon64]

Obvious question that pops up into my head.
Ok so you can chain a fsmash, ds, and a dsmash from the first hit of a nair....

So how do we make the first hit of a nair safe?
It chains really nicely from a rising fair at low to moderate percents. So....rising fair-->first hit of nair-->dsmash? hmm....Not a real combo but hm...

Also, hitting with a single nair to utilt'ing people on platforms is fun

 

[∫unk]

d-smash will not work after first hit of n-air.

just try it.

i'll try f-air first hit n-air to grab steel.

 

[Shaya]

Guys... first hit of nair being known as a frame advantageous move has been known for a very very VERY long time... *Sigh*.

 

[∫unk]

The point is to have it incorporated into the top marth's metagames and it isn't right now.

Doesn't matter if it was discovered if no one uses it (random scrubs claiming to have used this don't count).

 

[Shaya]

It's used Junk, but the actual idea behind it goes directly against Marth's entire TOP metagame that has been developed and maintained for quite a while now.

Marth is the spacing character. If a character is as close to Marth as to get hit by the first hit of nair, Marth is putting himself in a huge risk of trying to approach or consistantly use it.

Marth's aerial manoeuvrability is not great enough to weave in a first hit nair to fast fall to space an fsmash tipper; for example. And yes, other characters have very fast aerial games that are completley shut down by Marth because of his range. Putting ourselves within in danger? Good idea Junk.

 

[∫unk]

K I don't want to slam you but there's been a consensus among some MBRers that you're just a huge douche bag that deserves it.

It's used Junk, but the actual idea behind it goes directly against Marth's entire TOP metagame that has been developed and maintained for quite a while now.

It's not used. Look at Neo. Look at Roy R. Look at Pierce. Look at any of the top Marths. They aren't using it. Please save the bull****.

Marth is the spacing character. If a character is as close to Marth as to get hit by the first hit of nair, Marth is putting himself in a huge risk of trying to approach or consistantly use it.

Everyone is well aware of this. Instead of being close minded like you, we're trying to improve his game.

Maybe in your underdeveloped Australian metagame you can get away with just spacing all day but good players consistently get inside it.

This is why sh f-air u-air has become a good tool for setups and for the anticipation that the opponent will get inside your ideal spacing so you do a better job punishing it.

Marth's aerial manoeuvrability is not great enough to weave in a first hit nair to fast fall to space an fsmash tipper; for example. And yes, other characters have very fast aerial games that are completley shut down by Marth because of his range. Putting ourselves within in danger? Good idea Junk.

Again captain obvious, when are you going to say something I don't know?

I have yet to see anything useful come out of your posts except how you **** ****ty Australian smashers which NO ONE cares about.

And why don't we discuss 64 here to show just how ignorant, close minded, and hopelessly influenced by your weak metagame you really are.

Shaya's amazing thoughts on 64 Ness:
• Ness DJC gives him superior horizontal movement than almost all chars in the game (LOL)
• Falcon is his only weakness (LMAO)
• He can combo "practically anyone" across the stage easily ending with a spike (Do they Tech or SDI in Australia? lmk)

 

[Shaya]

Let me start with 64 first:
- His DJC allows him superior movement than his dash; it helps him keep up. But I like 'almost', smooth.
- I didn’t say it was his only weakness?
- And what you're confusing here is that I said I love to do that; I don't play smash 64 competitively because there isn't a scene for it; I win when I play. I love you for trying though.

So okay, you decided to go into smash 64... for really no reason. And all that you have said is? nothing? Okay. So let's see what else you've said.

I'm a douche bag? Sure I am. There's many douche bags on the internet; isn't that similar to your personality too?

Whoops 'used'. Whoops. What's so hard for you to understand? It was tried, it failed. Those top players are the ones that have shaped the metagame better than you or I; they're intelligent players who have probably tried it, and it has been discussed in the past before - Including within the MBR and publicly. We were all aware of it, and just like my naivety over dtilt and jab (hey just like Ike's jab right?) it didn't and probably won't go anywhere. Where were you when we discussed it in the past?

If it is so good and so useful then why aren't the best Marths using it when they were aware of it? Are you using it? No? Wow. I am coming to you with the point that I've personally tried it, and so have others. I'm arguing why it's not so useful as you think it could be.

Maybe in your underdeveloped Australian metagame you can get away with just spacing all day but good players consistently get inside it.

Conjecture and irrelavent. So you can throw out insults that don't help your argument at all. Moving on, your whole post is completely disregarding 'facts' due to your arrogance and pride, right? Chill child. If I’m that much able to out-space my opponents more consistently than they can get ‘inside’, then I win. That’s why Marth is a good character.

This is why sh f-air u-air has become a good tool for setups and for the anticipation that the opponent will get inside your ideal spacing so you do a better job punishing it.

A 'fact' coming from Junk? Okay, I agree. It's a set up that starts with one of Marth's safest and longest ranged moves - the fair (well in comparison to first hit of nair lulz). In this situation you can move yourself closer in-between the two attacks. First hit nair is SHORT really short. Like really short. So you've decided to give an example of a good set up, but it fails to be relevant in 'helping' the notion that using the nair is the bees knees.

First hit nair if it hits is a fantastic set up, duh, we know that; that's all you have. If it hits. Everyone was already aware you could, I don't know, GRAB dolphin slash, fsmash, after the first hit of nair. It's still not getting used though, I wonder why?

Again captain obvious, when are you going to say something I don't know?

I have yet to see anything useful come out of your posts except how you **** ****ty Australian smashers which NO ONE cares about.

Hey, Captain Oblivious when are you going to say something or PROVE something that not everyone is already aware of. You went out to say nair's the ****, and I said "guess what kid, it's not". Are you out to cause hype to inflate your own ego?

And then you finish off with more irrelevant nothing. Are you a fool? Your not gaining anything at all besides making yourself out to be a public nuisance. If you wanted to discuss something seriously Junk you just failed it - hard. I am not out to stop Marth’s meta game improving, but I came in from the other side of the argument, much to your chagrin resulting in this little farce of a post of yours. ‘You’ pushing and ‘me’ pulling actually advances things faster; it’s human nature.

 

[∫unk]

Let me start with 64 first:
- His DJC allows him superior movement than his dash; it helps him keep up. But I like 'almost', smooth.
- I didn’t say it was his only weakness?
- And what you're confusing here is that I said I love to do that; I don't play smash 64 competitively because there isn't a scene for it; I win when I play. I love you for trying though.

So okay, you decided to go into smash 64... for really no reason. And all that you have said is? nothing? Okay. So let's see what else you've said.

You admit your metagame is weak... I wish your convo was saved where you flaunted your 64 skills. I was loling so hard at your lack of knowledge and experience, which is still apparent today. Try to cover yourself up but if we keep going down this line you know you're just going to expose yourself for being a complete poser.

I'm a douche bag? Sure I am. There's many douche bags on the internet; isn't that similar to your personality too?

Difference is irl I have friends and people know I have a nice side. People have only seen an underserving arrogant prick from you. If I wanted to hear from an ***hole I'd just fart.

Whoops 'used'. Whoops. What's so hard for you to understand? It was tried, it failed.

No one was good enough to be trying with any chance of success. And regardless it's never too late to revisit.

Those top players are the ones that have shaped the metagame better than you or I; they're intelligent players who have probably tried it, and it has been discussed in the past before - Including within the MBR and publicly. We were all aware of it, and just like my naivety over dtilt and jab (hey just like Ike's jab right?) it didn't and probably won't go anywhere. Where were you when we discussed it in the past?

I've been trying to improve my Marth... it's now at a pretty decent level. Post a video of your Marth and we'll compare.

And I've discovered more stuff than you have/ever will. Check the stickies. Notice a lack of anything from you.

If it is so good and so useful then why aren't the best Marths using it when they were aware of it? Are you using it? No? Wow. I am coming to you with the point that I've personally tried it, and so have others. I'm arguing why it's not so useful as you think it could be.

LOL You assume the best Marth's are already at the top of their game. They aren't. Neo doesn't think he's good. Roy excessively full hopped in the tournament before last. Know your **** before you talk.

You trying it has no value because no one knows how good or (more likely) bad you are. And certain things are more useful depending on the point of the metagame.

Conjecture and irrelavent. So you can throw out insults that don't help your argument at all. Moving on, your whole post is completely disregarding 'facts' due to your arrogance and pride, right? Chill child. If I’m that much able to out-space my opponents more consistently than they can get ‘inside’, then I win. That’s why Marth is a good character.

Doesn't change the fact that you win cause your metagame sucks. By the way for the future when you're attempting to flame mixing slang (or as you would say colloquial) and eloquent language doesn't work.

A 'fact' coming from Junk? Okay, I agree. It's a set up that starts with one of Marth's safest and longest ranged moves - the fair (well in comparison to first hit of nair lulz). In this situation you can move yourself closer in-between the two attacks. First hit nair is SHORT really short. Like really short. So you've decided to give an example of a good set up, but it fails to be relevant in 'helping' the notion that using the nair is the bees knees.

LMK when you can find a quote of me saying it's anywhere near the bees knees.

First hit nair if it hits is a fantastic set up, duh, we know that; that's all you have. If it hits. Everyone was already aware you could, I don't know, GRAB dolphin slash, fsmash, after the first hit of nair. It's still not getting used though, I wonder why?

Same reason a lot of things aren't being used in Marth's arsenal. His metagame isn't complete no matter what you think sorry.

Hey, Captain Oblivious when are you going to say something or PROVE something that not everyone is already aware of. You went out to say nair's the ****, and I said "guess what kid, it's not". Are you out to cause hype to inflate your own ego?

Again, I never said that. l2read.

I said it hasn't been part of an advance Marth's game when it has the potential to be. Quote me where I say it's the ****.

Calling me kid is funny considering how 1) You're probably younger than me 2) I've done more than you and am doing more than you as we speak (I'll post my resume + proof if you want to compare lmk) 3) You're still immature to see how flawed your argument is, particularly the bolded.

And then you finish off with more irrelevant nothing. Are you a fool? Your not gaining anything at all besides making yourself out to be a public nuisance. If you wanted to discuss something seriously Junk you just failed it - hard. I am not out to stop Marth’s meta game improving, but I came in from the other side of the argument, much to your chagrin resulting in this little farce of a post of yours. ‘You’ pushing and ‘me’ pulling actually advances things faster; it’s human nature.

Not many people think I'm a public nuisance, because they recognize what I've brought to the Marth boards and because I'm like this to people that deserve it. Even SOLID knows I <3 him /nohomo

On the other hand, I have word of a few MBRers that already don't respect you, and your central point of "because advance Marth's aren't using it now, it must not be good" is only going to lose the very little respect you have left.

 

[Shaya]

What can I do but scoff?

All you're trying to do is insult, and my point still remains that your over-inflated ego got hurt somewhere along the way; seems a bit of a fact more than just me presuming now.

Difference is irl I have friends...
By the way for the future when you're attempting to flame mixing slang (or as you would say colloquial) and eloquent language doesn't work.
Calling me kid is funny considering how
1) You're probably younger than me, if not pretty sad that you're still playing video games
2) More than likely I've done more than you and am doing more than you as we speak
3) You're still immature to see how flawed your argument is, particularly the bolded.

Child, and that is all you are to me is easily shown by example here. You know nothing about me beyond the mask of the Marth boards/MBR. I'm not flaming. My only insult to you is 'child'. You have done nothing but flame, leaving the REAL reason behind why this started being about 'nair' completely won by myself. I presume a lot of things about you. I took you previously as sarcastic, as I know that is my own intentions. I guess you took me for being serious?

I call you a child, because to me you're below me in maturity, and perhaps other areas as well. I find it ironic you say "I'm probably older than you" but you return with "if not you're sad for playing video games"; perhaps I should return to being sarcastic now? Either way I don't need to show my life to you in any way, if you wanted to be a real stalker though it wouldn't be hard for you to not only find out how old I am, what I do for a living, and that I don't consider sitting behind a computer stroking my epeen as doing more than I .

By the way, the bolded argument is correct, you were just naive of the situation.

Your counter to my argument, cutting all your other crap doesn't disprove anything. A LOT of people have tried things with Marth, as have I. I, before now, tried for a long time to use the first hit of nair to my advantage; me arguing against it's use comes from knowledge - while you're coming from ignorance. The fact that you thought I'd say it's useless without any reason is not only against my nature (I feel I'm often the most excited about something 'new' with potential) only makes me look down upon you.

I've tried a lot of things with Marth and post my results. A lot of good topics aren't stickied or in the information sticky you control either. Bias perhaps? Whatever.

Take a step back; realise you're not hurting me here, but all the effort you put into this silly conflict is nothing but... silly. Perhaps the puberty phase of your mentality and maybe your transition to adult hood will be more apparent in your next reply? Perhaps not to reply at all?

Oh, my Marth videos are all over the place; shouldn't take tou much effort for you, 'stalker' .

 

[3xSwords]

Ummmm.... ok.... Sorry people internal affair, now....

Why don't we try to set up some single hit nair on the opponent again? Take 2? Shaya you may be right about Marth's game being about spacing and keeping them out. It doesn't mean we have to always have to be a sword's length away. Taking the occasional risk when the odds are in your favor in order to deal a lot of %'s is a viable tactic in my eyes.

So both of you take your argument to AIM or something....

Anyway, so probably known set ups (they won't guarantee the next hit):
1)SH DB first strike
2)SH fair
3)SH bair

.......

Yeah looks like first strike nair is limited.... Anybody else have ideas?

 

[Steel]

get this **** out of here plz

 

[Steel]

I'm going to be testing first hit nair a lot more tonight, just to double check the stun time and to see the possibilities. While it seems too good to be true, an infinite may be possible.