Why is this amazing thread not stickied yet?
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Marth Frame Data
- Thread starter Steel
- Start date
3xSwords
Smash Lord
Yeah lol you had me worried for a second there Steel. Thanks for fixing. Only problem n00bs might come here, look at this and believe that hitting with untippers is best for Marth. Maybe you might want to put a little * warning them about that, but great work. ^_^
Edit: Dude Xiivi L2Read and see that Steel will get it stickied after it is finished.
Edit: Dude Xiivi L2Read and see that Steel will get it stickied after it is finished.
ZHMT
Smash Lord
Good stuff Steel...Dtilt is simply amazing. Must of taken a while to get all this data, so lets make good use of it.
@anyone that spams fsmash, if you look at this thread and still spam fsmash....you have a serious problem lol.
@anyone that spams fsmash, if you look at this thread and still spam fsmash....you have a serious problem lol.
I helped Steel2nd verify the frame data on Marth's fsmash. I probably still won't be using it any less than I already do.
use it moar ankoku. MOAR1!
I saw aerials and advantages and thus assumed it was.
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2005
- Messages
- 9,720
- Location
- Scotch Plains, NJ
- NNID
- ShinEmblemLord
- 3DS FC
- 3926-6895-0574
- Switch FC
- SW-0793-4091-6136
It's better to use tippers on Aerials and most moves from looking at the data.
D-tilt is the only move you don't want to tip.
D-tilt is the only move you don't want to tip.
ZHMT
Smash Lord
Look on the bright side...it can get worse...(tipped dsmash) <_<
But yeah...maybe...just maybe...people will stop spamming fsmash lol.
obv a safe move.
So check this out...
Forward b 1
Hit: 4-7
End: 30
(15) >>
Shield Stun: 1
~Shield Hit Lag: 0
ADVANTAGE: -25
Tipper Shield Stun: 1
~Shield Hit Lag: 0
ADVANTAGE: -25
Regular Stun: 21
~Hit Lag: 0
ADVANTAGE: -5
Regular Tipper Stun: 22
~Hit Lag: 0
ADVANTAGE: -4
------
Not too bad is it? Definitely some mix up and mind games can go along with this move.
You can delay the rest of your side b, grab, roll.. i can foresee this being a pretty good mix up. Some people probably already use this. But now that we have data supporting it we can see the frame disadvantage we suffer is actually quite small.
Definitely not the safest thing on block, of course. That would be our untippered dtilt or aerials.
Discuss.
Forward b 1
Hit: 4-7
End: 30
(15) >>
Shield Stun: 1
~Shield Hit Lag: 0
ADVANTAGE: -25
Tipper Shield Stun: 1
~Shield Hit Lag: 0
ADVANTAGE: -25
Regular Stun: 21
~Hit Lag: 0
ADVANTAGE: -5
Regular Tipper Stun: 22
~Hit Lag: 0
ADVANTAGE: -4
------
Not too bad is it? Definitely some mix up and mind games can go along with this move.
You can delay the rest of your side b, grab, roll.. i can foresee this being a pretty good mix up. Some people probably already use this. But now that we have data supporting it we can see the frame disadvantage we suffer is actually quite small.
Definitely not the safest thing on block, of course. That would be our untippered dtilt or aerials.
Discuss.
feardragon64
Smash Champion
What's there to discuss? It's like everything that's not THAT unsafe, but not quite safe. Use it don't abuse it >>
But nice to keep in mind.
Oh, and if it's at full tipper range on the dancing blade, grab won't reach. Don't make the mistake >>
But nice to keep in mind.
Oh, and if it's at full tipper range on the dancing blade, grab won't reach. Don't make the mistake >>
First hit dancing blade to grab has been a pretty cute thing to do for a while. Most characters rely on jab on shield to grab as their 'pressure', and Marth's jab doesn't cut it, but the dancing blade does.
Marth's superior grab range to most characters allows for many mixups/punishments. Not many characters have 4 frame or less moves that actually outrange your dancing blade. Ignore Meta Knight.
Marth's superior grab range to most characters allows for many mixups/punishments. Not many characters have 4 frame or less moves that actually outrange your dancing blade. Ignore Meta Knight.
Because it's our fastest move on the ground besides jab. And like I said - mix ups.
You can also do it out of a dash, a pivot, etc. Much more options.
You can also do it out of a dash, a pivot, etc. Much more options.
ZHMT
Smash Lord
Im in love with Gimmicky Dancing blade mixups...
Once you condition the opponent to think you are going to finish your dancing blades, you can pretty much play with whatever you want a few times. The dancing blade forces your opponent to react quickly and can lead to many rewarding events. These are no where near guaranteed and require proper conditions to pull off.
SDB1 > Grab/Shield Breaker....... Once you have conditioned the opponent to think you are going to finish the combo, start to slow it down and let them shield. You can even let them hit you to make them think "hey...this works!". Thats when you sneak in a shield breaker next time and break that shield. The fact a broken shield is so good, it dont matter what move your hit with really, as long as your can pull off the move in the end. You can also grab if you want, or if you already broke a shield and you see they are being over protective.
UDB4 > Ftilt/Utilt....Last hit of DB up at low percents into a ftilt or utilt, is a true combo on some characters, use it. This is one of the best ways to start a very powerful juggle trap. Once you utilt, you can easily utilt again and sometimes it will catch the opponent off guard. If they land on the ground, chase their roll and regrab or punish with dancing blade.
SDB1 > SDB1 > SDB1....Sounds like itll never work right? Well thats because you never tried it. Once the opponent is in the state of mind "well once I get hit by the first part...I cant get out...why try?" You can literally link together the first hit of the dancing blade over and over until you decide to mix it up. Seriously, if you decide to do this, do it once a match at most. It is very gimmicky and unusual, however good at the right time.
If your opponent shields, you can also slow the dancing blade down, however I find that some characters like Falco can get a jab in or roll away (Lucario). Yet again, you cannot go that wrong really with mixing up your move.
In the end...
There are countless mixups, you can literally stop the dancing blade at anytime, so you can grab at almost any given point. The only time I wouldn't grab is after the 3rd hit down, because it moves you back and is best as a defensive move. Dancing blade is one of the most unpredictable moves in the game, so why make it predictable by doing the same thing with it over and over? Dthrow is an awesome move and the best way of getting a grab in is by predicting shield patterns. What better way to do this then dancing blade? I mean its all they can do to defend from it when used correctly. And yes...a lot of this is common sense, but nobody does it, so Im posting this now.
Once you condition the opponent to think you are going to finish your dancing blades, you can pretty much play with whatever you want a few times. The dancing blade forces your opponent to react quickly and can lead to many rewarding events. These are no where near guaranteed and require proper conditions to pull off.
SDB1 > Grab/Shield Breaker....... Once you have conditioned the opponent to think you are going to finish the combo, start to slow it down and let them shield. You can even let them hit you to make them think "hey...this works!". Thats when you sneak in a shield breaker next time and break that shield. The fact a broken shield is so good, it dont matter what move your hit with really, as long as your can pull off the move in the end. You can also grab if you want, or if you already broke a shield and you see they are being over protective.
UDB4 > Ftilt/Utilt....Last hit of DB up at low percents into a ftilt or utilt, is a true combo on some characters, use it. This is one of the best ways to start a very powerful juggle trap. Once you utilt, you can easily utilt again and sometimes it will catch the opponent off guard. If they land on the ground, chase their roll and regrab or punish with dancing blade.
SDB1 > SDB1 > SDB1....Sounds like itll never work right? Well thats because you never tried it. Once the opponent is in the state of mind "well once I get hit by the first part...I cant get out...why try?" You can literally link together the first hit of the dancing blade over and over until you decide to mix it up. Seriously, if you decide to do this, do it once a match at most. It is very gimmicky and unusual, however good at the right time.
If your opponent shields, you can also slow the dancing blade down, however I find that some characters like Falco can get a jab in or roll away (Lucario). Yet again, you cannot go that wrong really with mixing up your move.
In the end...
There are countless mixups, you can literally stop the dancing blade at anytime, so you can grab at almost any given point. The only time I wouldn't grab is after the 3rd hit down, because it moves you back and is best as a defensive move. Dancing blade is one of the most unpredictable moves in the game, so why make it predictable by doing the same thing with it over and over? Dthrow is an awesome move and the best way of getting a grab in is by predicting shield patterns. What better way to do this then dancing blade? I mean its all they can do to defend from it when used correctly. And yes...a lot of this is common sense, but nobody does it, so Im posting this now.
feardragon64
Smash Champion
^mindgames lol
Dancing blades is sakurai's way of balancing out the fact that we're less safe when we tip attacks on shields.
Dancing blades is sakurai's way of balancing out the fact that we're less safe when we tip attacks on shields.
ZHMT
Smash Lord
Yeah like...wtf is with that? lol
3xSwords
Smash Lord
That would be shieldbreaker obviously. 
3xSwords
Smash Lord
What is going to happen to our dtilt trap now? The main reason this worked was because tipper dtilt would avoid shield grabs. Now I'm sure Marth can avoid some grabs by being almost tipper range, but characters like DDD will probably be able to grab us... so for dtilt traps... still tipper or untipper them?
Tipping a shield still isn't terrible.
Our dtilt outranges Dedede's grab. If we were to tipper a dtilt on his shield he would SLIDE backwards putting him even more out of range.
Tippers = Sliding
Our dtilt outranges Dedede's grab. If we were to tipper a dtilt on his shield he would SLIDE backwards putting him even more out of range.
Tippers = Sliding
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2006
- Messages
- 6,289
- 3DS FC
- 1993-9028-0439
LOL! I've been doing this for months. I told steel this like AT LEAST a month ago. Uair is broken, and it comboes into everything. I thought I posted this in MBR. One of my biggest gameplay problems now is I Uair sometime when I should Fair for the range, lol!
*Goes back to reading the thread and lurking
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Yeah I love uair. I fast-fall it and it gets great results.
3xSwords
Smash Lord
rofl I know you mentioned it and I believed it too, maybe even before you have. However, I was simply stating with my comment that now it is definitely valid as proven by frames. Or is it? Steel you still haven't answered my other question about whether FF'ing or not FF'ing affects the landing lag of an aerial if you landed in the middle of the attack animation. Which could or could not change the validity of perfect uair imo.
Yes I did.
First let's clear this up: bair and dair don't auto cancel whatsoever, so matter what happens you will always get the landing lag of 21 and 32 respectively (i think those are the #'s) if you don't finish the whole thing in the air.
I said when you do first hit nair the landing lag extended to 8 frames, this is when i was not fast falling. I'd expect it to also be 8 frames if i fast falled it since a SHFF nair and SHFF fair (which are also 8 frames lag) you aren't finishing the animation and do not auto cancel.
First let's clear this up: bair and dair don't auto cancel whatsoever, so matter what happens you will always get the landing lag of 21 and 32 respectively (i think those are the #'s) if you don't finish the whole thing in the air.
I said when you do first hit nair the landing lag extended to 8 frames, this is when i was not fast falling. I'd expect it to also be 8 frames if i fast falled it since a SHFF nair and SHFF fair (which are also 8 frames lag) you aren't finishing the animation and do not auto cancel.
3xSwords
Smash Lord
Thanks for the clarification. Seems perfect uair doesn't work on shields then , but regular uair does so knock yourselves out guys XD
, but regular uair does so knock yourselves out guys XD
Alright, I'm done I guess. aerials are impossible when it comes to calculating advantages.
WE HAVE FRAME DATA MARTH COMMUNITY. WE ARE COMPLETE.
WE HAVE FRAME DATA MARTH COMMUNITY. WE ARE COMPLETE.
ZHMT
Smash Lord
This really needs to be stickied...like now.
Or at least rated 5 stars. i has haters =(
ZHMT
Smash Lord
Dont worry lol, I 5 starred it.
I hate how people will under rate videos (like 1 star) because they know rating 3 wont do anything to the overall rank.
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
I gave this thread 5 stars. I really didnt know dtilt lagged more when tipped oh well i guess ive been doin' it wrong all along. >__>
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2005
- Messages
- 9,720
- Location
- Scotch Plains, NJ
- NNID
- ShinEmblemLord
- 3DS FC
- 3926-6895-0574
- Switch FC
- SW-0793-4091-6136
Advantage isn't hard to calculate with aerials. Instead of using the total frames in the formula, you just use the land lag.
But then you're not taking into account the air-time after hitting with an aerial before landing.
No, it's freaking impossible.
There are too many spots where you can hit with your sword depending on your height in the air, the opponent's height << big one, also exactly how long you stay in the air which all depends on ^^.
There are too many spots where you can hit with your sword depending on your height in the air, the opponent's height << big one, also exactly how long you stay in the air which all depends on ^^.
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2005
- Messages
- 9,720
- Location
- Scotch Plains, NJ
- NNID
- ShinEmblemLord
- 3DS FC
- 3926-6895-0574
- Switch FC
- SW-0793-4091-6136
I thought that was a given that you would use that as well, since you are in the air and it would take several frames for you to hit the ground.
Sorry Ankoku. Wasn't aware I had to spell everything out. Thanks for keeping me in my toes.
*shoots you in the face.
Anyway, all that matters is Fair and Uair. I think both of them are around -8 from looking at 3God's data. I'll double check.
Sorry Ankoku. Wasn't aware I had to spell everything out. Thanks for keeping me in my toes.
*shoots you in the face.
Anyway, all that matters is Fair and Uair. I think both of them are around -8 from looking at 3God's data. I'll double check.
so guys like
Up Air
Hit: 6-9
End: 45
Shield Stun: 10
~Shield Hit Lag: 5
ADVANTAGE (no FF): -4
ADVANTAGE (SHFF): -4
Tipper Shield Stun: 13
~Shield Hit Lag: 11
ADVANTAGE (no FF): -7
ADVANTAGE (SHFF): -7
SHFF Uair Lag: 8
SH Uair Fast Falled Lag: 3
/discuss
as you can tell i have some advantage numbers now for aerials thanks to help from 3god.
Up Air
Hit: 6-9
End: 45
Shield Stun: 10
~Shield Hit Lag: 5
ADVANTAGE (no FF): -4
ADVANTAGE (SHFF): -4
Tipper Shield Stun: 13
~Shield Hit Lag: 11
ADVANTAGE (no FF): -7
ADVANTAGE (SHFF): -7
SHFF Uair Lag: 8
SH Uair Fast Falled Lag: 3
/discuss
as you can tell i have some advantage numbers now for aerials thanks to help from 3god.
3xSwords
Smash Lord
Untipper uair allows you to avoid all shield grabs (I believe most grabs come out frame 6 or slower) if you buffer a roll/spot dodge quickly enough. You however can not avoid upB's that come out in 5 frames, MK and Marth come into mind, probably Bowser too... dunno about others. I don't know any character that has an u-smash that comes out in 5 frames.....
Only problem with this is that untipper uair is even harder to land than tipper uair. However in the heat of battle combined with mixing things up, you can easily stick in an untipper uair, and if you hit shield, you can dodge against most characters while if you land it you have a guaranteed combo into anything. Untipper uair's combo ability is right next to first hit nair in terms of godliness.
Steel want to calculate hitstun of untipper uair? ^_^
Unfortunately this still is not a valid tactic against Marth's greatest opponent, MK. He can upB out of shield and still get you unless you use DS which is very risky, because if you miss he can set you up for a edge guarding situation or worse. However, people will not always input the timing correctly, if the MK is even 1 frame off, you get away free. Which is why you may get away with it time to time, but not something to rely on.
Instead here is something else we should look at:
Nair
Strong Hit Shield Stun: 10
~Shield Hit Lag: 4
SH FF Nair lag: 8
Technically if you are able to land 1 frame after you hit their shield you will have an advantage of -3. This is enough for you to be able to dodge ALL OoS options. Remember this is the untipper strong hit of the nair not the tipper hit.
Discuss.
Only problem with this is that untipper uair is even harder to land than tipper uair. However in the heat of battle combined with mixing things up, you can easily stick in an untipper uair, and if you hit shield, you can dodge against most characters while if you land it you have a guaranteed combo into anything. Untipper uair's combo ability is right next to first hit nair in terms of godliness.
Steel want to calculate hitstun of untipper uair? ^_^
Unfortunately this still is not a valid tactic against Marth's greatest opponent, MK. He can upB out of shield and still get you unless you use DS which is very risky, because if you miss he can set you up for a edge guarding situation or worse. However, people will not always input the timing correctly, if the MK is even 1 frame off, you get away free. Which is why you may get away with it time to time, but not something to rely on.
Instead here is something else we should look at:
Nair
Strong Hit Shield Stun: 10
~Shield Hit Lag: 4
SH FF Nair lag: 8
Technically if you are able to land 1 frame after you hit their shield you will have an advantage of -3. This is enough for you to be able to dodge ALL OoS options. Remember this is the untipper strong hit of the nair not the tipper hit.
Discuss.
hitstun of untipper up air is ~20 frames
3xSwords
Smash Lord
Godly combo ability..... unfortunately at higher %'s opponents can DI and screw you up, but you can still connect with pretty much any aerial besides like dair.
So..... how about that untipper nair strong hit?
* Yo Steel this a question of on the side. But in Brawl people can air dodge earlier than they can perform any other action, does this mean they can air dodge during hitstun? Or can they air dodge immediately after hitstun which makes it so appear so much quicker than any other option?
So..... how about that untipper nair strong hit?
* Yo Steel this a question of on the side. But in Brawl people can air dodge earlier than they can perform any other action, does this mean they can air dodge during hitstun? Or can they air dodge immediately after hitstun which makes it so appear so much quicker than any other option?
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2005
- Messages
- 9,720
- Location
- Scotch Plains, NJ
- NNID
- ShinEmblemLord
- 3DS FC
- 3926-6895-0574
- Switch FC
- SW-0793-4091-6136
You don't airdodge during hitstun.
Hitstun is when you're locked in freeze frames.
You can't do ****. Hitstun is just very short in Brawl.
And it might seem like the fastest option since it usually is in terms of frame data. Air dodges activate in 4 frames or less for pretty much everyone as far as I know.
Hitstun is when you're locked in freeze frames.
You can't do ****. Hitstun is just very short in Brawl.
And it might seem like the fastest option since it usually is in terms of frame data. Air dodges activate in 4 frames or less for pretty much everyone as far as I know.
i tested it by air dodging with snake. i'd assume it comes after hitstun