Meta Mastery of the Arts - Greninja Matchup Thread Archive

[TTYK]

It looks like this argument is getting heated up.

 

[ShuckleBoard]

2cents from a Samus main

• Be aware of dash attack and pivot grab at all times they set up into her combos very easily and a good Samus will mix these up
• If Samus is above the Greninja player juggle her very hard. Samus is floaty, has a slow Dair w/ punishable lag. Be aware of bomb mixups as it increases her aerial mobility.
• Zair is almost nonpunishable if spaced well.
• Samus's Tilts are deceptively good and Utilt especially anti-airs Greninjas Nair well.
• Chase Samus if she is trying to get her Charge Shot, don't let her get it.
• Off stage: Substitute Bombs and her Bair. On a side note when she tethers she is vulnerable until she reaches the edge

Overall notes: You can both combo well and have good offstage play. Samus does the projectile game better and has a good up close game. Greninja dominates in the air and can pressure Samus from anywhere due to high mobility.

Don't know if that helped at all I'm pretty new to Samus, but I feel I understand how she works. Good Luck Scarf Ninjas!

 

[FullMoon]

Aren't our shurikens really disruptive for Samus though? They're faster than her Super-Missiles and I think they have less start-up, so they can hit her before she can send a missile, plus the projectiles don't actually clash with each other so while we may be able to hit Samus with a shuriken, we can probably shield a missile. Shurikens would also be really disruptive if Samus tried to charge her Charge Shot as well, though I suppose she wouldn't try while she's in our range anyway.

 

[Coffee™]

If he's recovering high then Ike has a pretty low risk Aether/Uair attempt for extra damage/kill if its Uair but probably isn't knocking Greninja back off stage. The stuff with Tempest is for if Greninja got knocked horizontal or low off stage. If he was recovering high and I was in position I still might try Tempest. That Up B momentum + windbox sending him significantly higher = flying off the other side of the stage.

If Greninja saves his jump he should never die to Tempest.

If SS is only transcendent when charged, we can most likely CQC through any spam/uncharged poking attempts with it. CQC will either flat out beat it or clank, which lets us act again sooner.

SS isn't really used much uncharged.

Unless Sub/one of its variants is one of those Counters that freezes the opponent, its not going to stop a CQC recovery (Ike doesn't stop to swing), and it won't stop an Aether Drive that's done near the stage. The apex of the sword throw will be like 1/4 of the way into the stage, but Ike will just ride up the side of the stage and grab the ledge.

You clearly don't know how Sub works....

 

[Nidtendofreak]

And you clearly don't know how Tempest works.

The only characters who can realistically consistently make it back after getting hit by it deep off stage are Villager, ROB, Kirby and Jigglypuff. Even then, it can be a struggle for the last two, Kirby in particular with his air speed. If you aren't killed by it due to being on a stage with close side blastzones, you're in the blastzone bubble area. There will be times where Tempest wasn't charged enough or Greninja barely needed to use his Up B in the first place and make it back, sure. When used properly and optimally, he's not making it back.

Naturally, we ain't chasing Greninja high into the air with it. I'm talking about when Greninja gets knocked downwards off stage. Meaning he has to recover upwards, forwards and more distance than just the double jump can cover.

Just looking at videos of Greninja's custom moves, Sub really ain't going to do much to Aether Drive at all. The majority of the time when Ike uses it, his hurtbox never reaches the apex of the spinning sword. There's nothing for Greninja to hit in the first place. Likewise, with CQC unless you hit the very end of it when Ike loses momentum, Ike's past the area Greninja hits by the time it triggers due to the combination of small amount of delay + Ike is still flying forwards at a very fast speed. You'd have more luck trying to time the explosion Down B against CQC than Sub. Or just sticking with Hydro Pump which would be the most consistent out of all of the options and can probably wall off an Ike recovering with CQC fairly well.

 

[FullMoon]

Guys, guys. Let's leave the topic of customs at rest for now because I feel like this isn't going to get anywhere until we get to see this MU in practice. Whether or not Greninja can be easily gimped by Tempest or if Sub works on Aether is probably something we won't know for sure until we see it in action. Right now this discussion is pretty much going in circles.

 

[TTYK]

Samus I feel has the worst down b in the game. With her floaty jumps, there is reason why we can't juggle her. She jumps like she is on the freakin moon.

 

[ShuckleBoard]

Samus I feel has the worst down b in the game. With her floaty jumps, there is reason why we can't juggle her. She jumps like she is on the freakin moon.

Bombs have many uses the main one being that in ball mode Samus's aerial mobility is greatly increased. Bombs also are great for laying down when edge guarding, retreating or charging CS. Also if your having trouble juggling just jump into her and attack, Dair is very slow and bombs are on a timer so they don't explode on contact at first and with Greninja's insane jump the Samus player is in a bad position. Hope that helped.

 

[Kite0692]

Umm I just came to see whatsup with this. I have been off smashboards for some time. As far as I can say Charizard vs Greninja is even, or maybe slight disadvantage in my opinion. There are two issues in the matchup, one is landing and the other is juggle/killing him. Some things I can say:

- His up B kills really really early. If he has rage he can kill Greninja around 80-90% AFTER the hit. And I will dare to say in less than 80% in Halberd lol. So be careful.

- Rock smash is weird. At the end of the move it sprays some little rocks in random directions. Sometimes they go towards charizard, sometimes behind him. I think this thing deals around 27% and he can mash it out anytime Greninja tries to combo since it has superarmor.

- His side B hurts a lot. He can use this if you are charging the Shuriken (sometimes it hits the shuriken and he goes freefall). He can use it if you have no double jump and you are trying to land. Best way to deal with this is to react to it with a counter, or use Hydro pump to evade it. I prefer counter tho. If you shield this move there are 3 things I personally do:
1: Roll towards him - Fsmash (in any %). 2: Rolls towards him - Dtilt (it can it either in front or in the back, you have to look really carefully) and then Usmash (its guaranteed around 90% before the Dtilt). And 3: Rolls - SH Dair - Shadow Sneak (or whatever you like. You can do Dair-Utilt spike-Dtilt-Fair guaranteed) around 130% I think.

- Flamethrower screws Greninjas recovery. He just has to take it, its free %, and he can take the stock if you mash your Up B with a Dsmash. You can try to use counter Up and Towards Chari (it beats the fire and hit him and let you come back to the stage).

Ummmm...lets see what else...

He can grab Dtilt from pretty far, so be careful.
Spaced fair is always the best way to go.
If he power shields the Fsmash he can punish you with his Fsmash lol.

Maybe tomorrow I will write some things again, since I'm a little busy right now.

 

[Bloodcross]

too lazy to read if it was said already but...

flamethrower goes through water shuriken except for fully charged one.

 

[FullMoon]

You guys all talk about how Flamethrower can screw up with our recovery, but have you guys ever thought about Substitute offstage? Use the flames to trigger it and then kick Charizard away as he has no way of blocking it. Since he'll be at the edge of the stage, even just hitting him on his back could result in super early kills and so Charizard really shouldn't be trying that against a savvy Greninja unless he's recovering low and well, that's easily avoidable.

There's no way this MU could be in Charizard's favor and at least without customs he really doesn't have many option to get away from Greninja's juggling other than Rock Smash which is a very predictable move.

 

[ephOE]

How do you Substitute Flamethrower if you're recovering low?

 

[FullMoon]

How do you Substitute Flamethrower if you're recovering low?

You guys all talk about how Flamethrower can screw up with our recovery, but have you guys ever thought about Substitute offstage? Use the flames to trigger it and then kick Charizard away as he has no way of blocking it. Since he'll be at the edge of the stage, even just hitting him on his back could result in super early kills and so Charizard really shouldn't be trying that against a savvy Greninja unless he's recovering low and well, that's easily avoidable.

If recovering low is going to leave you vulnerable then simply don't recover low unless you see Charizard trying to chase you off-stage. If Charizard tries to Flamethrower you he's going to be stuck breathing fire enough for you to recover high without any risk of being punished. Charizard can't really edgeguard Greninja all that well unless he gets a good read or the Greninja messes up.

 

[TTYK]

Bombs have many uses the main one being that in ball mode Samus's aerial mobility is greatly increased. Bombs also are great for laying down when edge guarding, retreating or charging CS. Also if your having trouble juggling just jump into her and attack, Dair is very slow and bombs are on a timer so they don't explode on contact at first and with Greninja's insane jump the Samus player is in a bad position. Hope that helped.

Aerial mobility is a blessing against some.... And a curse against others.

 

[Gunla]

It's time for the penultimate week... 12!

With ,,,!

As for next week, we'll have a substitute! In addition to the 3 characters for Week 12, you may also suggest a character for Week 13! (Unless Mewtwo magically appears out of nowhere next week and is playable, that is. Which is doubtful.)

 

[ephOE]

WFT is still a mystery, but from what I can tell it's not too bad an MU for Greninja. Uncharged sun and volleyballs can be ducked under. Her/his dodges are better than most, but WFT lacks range and Greninja can exploit that. Also predictable recovery.

G&W is a bit strange. His animations are jarring and take some getting used to. Bair approaches can be obnoxious because if they start biting into your shield, the hitboxes last longer and force you to hold shield until it's completely over. As with most MUs, shield as little as possible. F smash can outrange Bair and Fair if timed right. Bucket can't catch shuriken, so WS pokes and Fair works pretty well in the neutral. G&W has decent gimping potential and can go deep with the Key and still recover. Key also has great horizontal mobility for a stall/fall, so while it isn't terribly hard to punish, Subsitute isn't as useful as it is on similar moves, like Bowser's Dair. He's also incredibly light, Up Smash KOs VERY early and even Uair becomes something G&W really has to be afraid of.

Lucario - DON'T GET HIT, and KO as fast as possible. After a while AS becomes very dangerous, and can also make recovering from the ledge very difficult.

The Pac Man MU can be fun, but if the Pac tries to play keep away it can be annoying because of Greninja's mediocre approach options. He's not too fast on the ground, so it can be tough for him to downright outcamp Greninja. His Dash Attack has almost no lag and the end isn't safe to shield because he can use a grounded Up B, which will come out faster than any of Greninja's OoS options and remove Greninja from his shield. Fire Hydrant can be Substituted even after it hits the ground, and if you hit it with a Uair while falling, it won't hurt you. If you manage to grab Pac Man's fruit (any of them), he can't summon another one as long as you hold onto it.

I think WFT and G&W are slightly in Greninja's favor, at worst. G&W is still very tricky, at times, but light as a feather. Lucario below ~70% is easy. Lucario above ~70% is extremely dangerous. Pac Man might be an even MU or even in Greninja's favor, but he can be full of surprises.

Well, there's something to get the discussion started, I guess.

 

[FullMoon]

The WFT MU is kinda sad because Greninja's crouch pretty much nullifies a good portion of her moves.

For Pac-Man, I've had a lot of matches with @ Nu~ so I have a good deal to say about this MU (let's not bring customs into this since they're still in a bit of an experimental phase)

Neutral: Pac-Man wins, no doubt. He has such stage control it's just crazy. The Hydrant can really mess our positioning up and the fruits make approaching Pac-Man pretty hard. On the other hand, since Pac's grab sucks we can often follow up a N-Air with a jab in case he shields and be safe, though sometimes Pac's own N-Air can hits us for trying. Basically Pac wins at long and mid-range, but close range we definitely have an edge and we do have the mobility to get to Pac-Man quickly.

Advantage: Pac-Man really can't do much in an advantaged position since he has no kill setups and most of his combos seem to rely a lot on the Hydrant or fruit in order to work. Greninja definitely wins in this regard since he can kill Pac-Man a lot earlier than he can and also has the kill-setups to do it efficiently. We can't juggle him as well though, because the Hydrant covers him from under, so for the most part we want to attack Pac-Man with b-air and f-airs in the air instead of up-airs like we usually do. Overall Greninja has a far better advantaged position.

Disadvantage: Greninja really doesn't stay in disadvantage much against Pac-Man at all. Pac-Man does have the Hydrant to cover him in the air which can help him prevent Greninja from hitting him with a sweetspot Up-Smash or pretty much any anti-air attack, however he's still pretty vulnerable from the sides and Greninja can and will very easily chase him around. So once again Greninja has an edge here if only because he can keep Pac in a bad position for longer than the opposite.

Edgeguarding: We mess Pac-Man's recovery badly. Hydro Pump screws with his Side-B, shurikens force Pac-Man to recover low which leaves him open to B-Air stage spikes or just us stealing the spring at the right time if if he's close enough. Hydro Pump also screws with Pac's positioning and if the spring is off-camera then it can end up making him fall to his death. Pac-Man doesn't really have much in the way of gimping Greninja what with we having one of the best and safer recoveries in the game, so he loses really badly in this department because all of his edgeguarding tools are easily avoidable.

In a way fighting Pac-Man is kinda similar to fighting R.O.B, the big difference is that Pac-Man is not as easily combo'd as R.O.B and his zoning overall feels better and harder to get around due to how much stuff he can have around at once.

I'd say the MU is even, possibly 55:45 in our favor because while Pac wins in neutral, the fact that his lack of kill setups usually results in us building up rage, we having a better advantaged and disadvantaged position and being able to wreck his recovery badly can make Greninja kinda tough for him since his mobility means that he can close in on Pac very quickly. He's not to be underestimated though, a creative Pac-Man can really make you work for those hits and if you're not careful you'll see yourself with a lot of damage really fast.

 

[Zage]

I'm gonna say 60:40 Greninja's favor. Once he gets in and starts pressing his advantages its hard for Pac-Man to retaliate, especially when hes off stage. Gnin's Up-B destroys Pac's side-b and obvious up b attempts.

Also, Greninja can literally walk up to a stationary Hydrant and down-b to get a instant counter even though he isn't being hit. Your hitbox just needs to be touching the hydrant.

 

[Nu~]

I'm gonna say 60:40 Greninja's favor. Once he gets in and starts pressing his advantages its hard for Pac-Man to retaliate, especially when hes off stage. Gnin's Up-B destroys Pac's side-b and obvious up b attempts.

Also, Greninja can literally walk up to a stationary Hydrant and down-b to get a instant counter even though he isn't being hit. Your hitbox just needs to be touching the hydrant.

But how does he get in is the question?
In my battles with @ FullMoon i noticed that greninja's approach options are very limited. Nothing except for an extremely well spaced fair is safe on shield.
Greninja usually tries to bait a reaction to get in, but if the Pac-Man player stays focused, then greninja is going have hell trying to approach.
If we control the long and mid range, than we can reap victory.

Unfortunately we lack a kill confirm, so we have to be very creative to get the kill. Bell tricks, z dropped keys, side B tech chases, you name it.

 

[FullMoon]

But how does he get in is the question?
In my battles with @ FullMoon i noticed that greninja's approach options are very limited. Nothing except for an extremely well spaced fair is safe on shield.
Greninja usually tries to bait a reaction to get in, but if the Pac-Man player stays focused, then greninja is going have hell trying to approach.
If we control the long and mid range, than we can reap victory.

Unfortunately we lack a kill confirm, so we have to be very creative to get the kill. Bell tricks, z dropped keys, side B tech chases, you name it.

Actually since Pac-Man's grab is so terribad, we can N-Air your shield fairly safely because everything else you try to use to punish out of shield is probably going to result in you getting hit by our jab. The closest thing you have to punish in that situation is a N-Air, but if the Greninja sees it coming then they can shield it and you've pretty much put yourself in the perfect position to be Up-Smashed

In our battles I've tried to do something like that a lot of times, but the input lag was throwing the timing off for me so I often ended up getting hit.

Greninja is significantly safer when attacking characters with slow grabs such as Pac-Man and Link because that means we can use N-Air with more freedom and that makes our approach game a lot better against them, it's why Greninja can deal with ZSS a lot better than he can with say, Fox.

 

[Nu~]

Actually since Pac-Man's grab is so terribad, we can N-Air your shield fairly safely because everything else you try to use to punish out of shield is probably going to result in you getting hit by our jab. The closest thing you have to punish in that situation is a N-Air, but if the Greninja sees it coming then they can shield it and you've pretty much put yourself in the perfect position to be Up-Smashed

In our battles I've tried to do something like that a lot of times, but the input lag was throwing the timing off for me so I often ended up getting hit.

Greninja is significantly safer when attacking characters with slow grabs such as Pac-Man and Link because that means we can use N-Air with more freedom and that makes our approach game a lot better against them, it's why Greninja can deal with ZSS a lot better than he can with say, Fox.

I could have sworn that I used my trampoline OOS to punish your nair approach. The trampoline comes out on frame one and can punish your nair approach every time. I just went for nair because it was the more damaging option.
But your nair must have very low landing lag if you can shield our frame 3 nair after poking our shield

I also think that you may be underestimating our edgeguards.
Trampoline on the ledge + bell covers all get up attempts and leads into a super powerful side B.

We can also set up a trampoline on the ledge and use the hitbox to bounce the hydrant up. The bouncing hydrant and trampoline cover all get ups.
Our ledge guarding game is one of, if not the best, in the game because of our crazy complex traps.
Hell, we can throw a melon down next to the ledge to prevent you from being able to catch the ledge.

But if we are pursuing you offstage, we can always throw an orange or melon to cover the horizontal recover, or Apple/hydrant for the vertical.

Edit: I don't always remember to set up the traps however...lol

 

[FullMoon]

I could have sworn that I used my trampoline OOS to punish your nair approach. The trampoline comes out on frame one and can punish your nair approach every time. I just went for nair because it was the more damaging option.
But your nair must have very low landing lag if you can shield our frame 3 nair after poking our shield

I also think that you may be underestimating our edgeguards.
Trampoline on the ledge + bell covers all get up attempts and leads into a super powerful side B.

We can also set up a trampoline on the ledge and use the hitbox to bounce the hydrant up. The bouncing hydrant and trampoline cover all get ups.
Our ledge guarding game is one of, if not the best, in the game because of our crazy complex traps.
Hell, we can throw a melon down next to the ledge to prevent you from being able to catch the ledge.

But if we are pursuing you offstage, we can always throw an orange or melon to cover the horizontal recover, or Apple/hydrant for the vertical.

I don't remember the trampoline being used, but since our N-Air auto-cancels I think it should have low enough landing lag for us to be able to shield in time, don't quote me on that though.

The problem with all of those methods is that Greninja can just go over them with Hydro Pump if he wants, especially in a stage with platforms since they help him land safely while making go over anything Pac-Man throws at him because I don't think the hydrant can bounce that high.

Plus I don't remember you ever using any of those ledge traps so I obviously didn't know they existed until you mentioned them just now.

There's no denying that Greninja's edgeguarding is harder for Pac-Man to deal with than Pac's edgeguarding is for Greninja considering all it takes for us is to aim Hydro Pump diagonally then towards the stage so that we land as far from you as possible (assuming you're close to the ledge) while still going over your traps.

 

[Nu~]

I don't remember the trampoline being used, but since our N-Air auto-cancels I think it should have low enough landing lag for us to be able to shield in time, don't quote me on that though.

The problem with all of those methods is that Greninja can just go over them with Hydro Pump if he wants, especially in a stage with platforms since they help him land safely while making go over anything Pac-Man throws at him because I don't think the hydrant can bounce that high.

Plus I don't remember you ever using any of those ledge traps so I obviously didn't know they existed until you mentioned them just now.

There's no denying that Greninja's edgeguarding is harder for Pac-Man to deal with than Pac's edgeguarding is for Greninja considering all it takes for us is to aim Hydro Pump diagonally then towards the stage so that we land as far from you as possible (assuming you're close to the ledge) while still going over your traps.

Yeah, I completely forgot about my ledgeguards. I'm not holding you at fault though, but I did want to add those techniques in. I don't always remember them lol.

But if you are bold enough to try and hydro pump over our ledge traps, we can always punish your landing with a fully charged side B. Our side B goes over half the length of FD, so If we expect you to hydro pump onto the stage, you take 12% and possibly die if you are a little over 100%.

But enough about ledgeguarding. I wanna bring up something that I didn't know before that ephOE brought up.
Our dash attack + up B is faster than all of your OOS options?!?
That is very bad for you. Now I have a VERY safe approach.

 

[Coffee™]

If drop shield jab doesn't beat it in terms of frame advantage simply rolling behind Pac during DA would counter that option.

 

[FullMoon]

Yeah, I completely forgot about my ledgeguards. I'm not holding you at fault though, but I did want to add those techniques in. I don't always remember them lol.

But if you are bold enough to try and hydro pump over our ledge traps, we can always punish your landing with a fully charged side B. Our side B goes over half the length of FD, so If we expect you to hydro pump onto the stage, you take 12% and possibly die if you are a little over 100%.

But enough about ledgeguarding. I wanna bring up something that I didn't know before that ephOE brought up.
Our dash attack + up B is faster than all of your OOS options?!?
That is very bad for you. Now I have a VERY safe approach.

Not too sure if side-B could really punish Hydro Pump since Greninja both goes pretty far from the recovery itself and also skids even further so he might go too far for Pac-Man to catch up to or he'll be able to shield the incoming attack. That might require some testing to be sure about. Even then, aiming the side-b properly in a stage with platforms is probably not going to be very worth it.

As for the Dash Attack -> Up B thing... It's hard to really gauge how much of an impact that will have in the MU. For the most part Pac-Man won't even be approaching Greninja in the first place and in all our matches usually when I landed on a spring it was at most a minor annoyance. Plus Pac-Man does stay in a helpless state long enough for Greninja to just move away from him and heck, we might even be able to hit you with an aerial or Shadow Sneak while you're helpless.

Actually I think Greninja might be able to use Shadow Sneak immediatelly after being propelled up by the spring which can result in Pac-Man being hit by it.

I don't know if the spring will make us actually get hit by Pac-Man as he's going up though. Even then he might be able to Shadow Sneak hitstun cancel out of it.

 

[Nu~]

Not too sure if side-B could really punish Hydro Pump since Greninja both goes pretty far from the recovery itself and also skids even further so he might go too far for Pac-Man to catch up to or he'll be able to shield the incoming attack. That might require some testing to be sure about. Even then, aiming the side-b properly in a stage with platforms is probably not going to be very worth it.

As for the Dash Attack -> Up B thing... It's hard to really gauge how much of an impact that will have in the MU. For the most part Pac-Man won't even be approaching Greninja in the first place and in all our matches usually when I landed on a spring it was at most a minor annoyance. Plus Pac-Man does stay in a helpless state long enough for Greninja to just move away from him and heck, we might even be able to hit you with an aerial or Shadow Sneak while you're helpless.

Actually I think Greninja might be able to use Shadow Sneak immediatelly after being propelled up by the spring which can result in Pac-Man being hit by it.

I don't know if the spring will make us actually get hit by Pac-Man as he's going up though. Even then he might be able to Shadow Sneak hitstun cancel out of it.

It's a guranteed hit if we trampoline your shield.
The trampoline is mainly there to keep your approaches aerial and a little more predictable.

 

[FullMoon]

It's a guranteed hit if we trampoline your shield.
The trampoline is mainly there to keep your approaches aerial and a little more predictable.

Well most of Greninja's approaches are aerial anyway so it doesn't make much of an impact overall. Dash grab is already difficult to use because of the hydrant staying in the way, though of course it's still a great option.

So, with all that has been said here, I think this is solidly an even MU. Pretty much who wins is the one who outplays the other and both characters need to be creative in order to win. It's quite the crazy fight overall.

 

[Jay-kun]

Hmm, 50:50 because Greninja is too slow, otherwise, 45:55 in Greninja's favor.
This was mentioned somewhere on Smashboards before, that Greninja is a character you about when you mention crouching. Is this correct?
I remember when I mained Greninja+Pacman, and was a little good with the combos, AT's etc.
Greninja is a very well developed char. as an artist, I admire the really good animations in his attacks/movements.. (off topic btw XD)
ANYWAY.
Nice forums.
Ok, against Pacman, Greninja's counter is almost useless, considering the slow-startup and lag of most of Pac's moves. One thing is the side-b and up-b.
You can counter that recovery and aim to hit Pacman in motion, hopefully resulting in a stage-spike.
This is Pacman's weakness. His recoveries, like most chars., have very active hitboxes.
counter, counter, counter!!!!!
Onstage Pacman wins, offstage Greninja wins, Pacman cannot recover low either, with Greninja's falling dair spike.
Another big advantage is the amount of combos Greninja can do off throws. So a tip is too stay close and not to use water shrunken. ever. unless Pacman is far and makes a mistake...

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Greninja wins soundly against low aura Lucario due to the fact that Luke loses the neutral without larger hitboxes. The issue with Lucario seems to be getting in on him for the kill when he is at higher aura. Greninja's high mobility and jump speed are very useful in this situation as he can short hop force palm and aura sphere on the approach. I've also seen Greninja outright swat through even larger aura spheres with a well timed SH nair, which can protect him if he makes a mistake and is going to get hit. Although in the ideal scenario, Lucario would be dead before his aura gets too crazy due to Grenija's powerful kill setups and gimps and the fact that weird things can happen to Luke's recovery if it gets hit by hydro pump. If Greninja pushes Luke away from the ledge when he is recovering up towards the stage, Luke can zoom way up high and into freefall, for example, and Greninja can kill with fair.

I would give this one to Greninja due to the fact that he doesn't struggle killing or gimping and he has reasonable options even against high aura Luke, but Luke still gets major reward off of a read like always. Ball parking it at 60-40 Greninja.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Slightly related to Lucario matchup: I was up two stocks once against a Lucario. Lucario was at around 160%. I lost my stock, took around 50% cause high-aura Lucario, and then died from a forward smash at that percent.

Fear the aura paws.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Fear the aura paws.

Lol yes, in a huge way, things like that have happened to me too. Lucario's reward off of a read rivals Ganon's. But I think Greninja has the ability to handle Luke at the theoretical top level of play if he can remain unpredictable, and that's something that Greninja in particular is quite good at.

 

[Gunla]

For Week 13, I wanted to return to one character that seemed to need more discussion.

From my findings, it means that Charizard is that character! And because Mewtwo hasn't been released yet...

Week 13 begins with ,, and .

 

[FullMoon]

So. Ness.

I feel like this one is going to be a bit controversial. I myself think the MU is dead even between them, but I just got back form college so I can't really organize my thoughts about it now.

 

[ephOE]

I myself think the MU is dead even between them

If it's not dead even then I'd go as far as to put it in Greninja's favor. PK Fire has terrible recovery, Greninja can full hop over it and still have time to punish. Ness is floaty and not particularly heavy. F smash can reflect shuriken but uncharged WS pokes are pretty safe and he can't absorb them. Sitting duck for Hydro Pump gimp when trying to use PK Thunder to recover, or Greninja can even intercept the PK Thunder before it connects with Ness and still make it back to the stage thanks to his good recovery.

If Greninja is hit by PK Fire he can often jump out of it before Ness is able to move again and grab. It's usually only when caught in PK Fire close to Ness that he can grab, use aerials, or F smash. PK Thunder is also one of the projectiles that Greninja can safely clank with his Dair (you have to hit the thunder ball and not the tail, though) and bounce away.

Things to watch out for are the disjoint on Ness's dash attack and Fair, and falling Uairs as KO moves. And of course, his back throw.

 

[Jaguar360]

Ness is probably evenish, maybe a 55:45 in Greninja's favor. Greninja edgeguards Ness really easily and has fairly good onstage control with his mobility, fast attacks, shurikens and Hydro Pump. However, Ness' great kill power and wide variety of moves to kill us with is a huge problem. Many of Greninja's attacks are punishable and those punishes can lead to grabs, which is a bad thing when facing Ness. Ness' PK Thunder also gives him a bit of stage control and can chase Greninja around the map (Greninja, thankfully, has enough mobility to make this less of an issue than it is with other characters). Greninja also has to be careful with fully charged shurikens because of Ness' f-smash. Going back to kill power, PK Thunder 2 and f-smash can completely turn around a game with their insane kill power so Greninja needs to watch out for that.

I probably shouldn't get into this any more than that, so I'll just leave it there. Greninja controls the flow of the match for the most parts and edgeguards Ness even better than most characters with Hydro Pump and b-air. However, Greninja really needs to respect Ness' sheer power, great throws and PK Thunder.

 

[Ludiloco]

can be a really tough matchup, but his floatiness makes him combo bait. If you can avoid his grabs and PK Thunder, you should have no trouble beating him. PK Fire is one of the easiest moves to punish and although a good Ness won't be using it often, it does give you a lot of reaction time to get in and rack up damage. I'd say just make avoiding grabs your #1 priority in the MU and you should come out on top. If you can take away the b-throw, Ness doesn't have hugely reliable options to take our stocks. I'd say slight advantage froggy.

is actually a really annoying matchup. Really. Annoying. Kirby is 100% free to spam dair in the MU because we have no option to punish it OoS that comes out faster than his jab on landing. Kirby is one of the few characters I'd actually recommend being above, he really doesn't have great tools against an aerial assault. Kirby doesn't really get great rewards out of his grabs either, so like the Yoshi MU I'd say don't be afraid of using your shield. Pop him up in the air with nair and d-tilt and approach diagonally for follow ups. You can approach from directly underneath if you have enough time, but you really need to be wary of his down special and dair when doing so. Kirby with shurikens is annoying too, but is probably more punishable than Kirby with a command grab. Pick your poison. Kirby wins in neutral, Greninja wins in the air. Kirby dies earlier, but also has just as much kill power or possibly a bit more than Greninja. I'd say this is pretty much even, they both annoy the heck out of each other.

is pretty annoying too. Patience is the key, but avoid over-using your shield due to pound's weird hitbox and shield busting properties. Jigglypuff dies even earlier than Kirby and is much easier to follow up on due to dair not being nearly as good as Kirby's. Just be patient as Jigglypuff bobs and weaves fairs and nairs, eventually they will mis-space one. Up tilt is also a fantastic tool in this MU, it will pop Jiggly right up for an up air followup (or sometimes an up smash) and its disjointed and long hitbox makes it the perfect anti-air move. Use it early and often to remind Jiggly she can't just hover over you freely.

Substitute could be useful due to Jigglypuff mains' tendencies to throw out safe shield pokes, but I have not tested this so use at your own discretion. Otherwise, Jigglypuff can only kill us with bair due to her god-awful smash attacks. As long as you avoid laggy moves and getting your shield busted, you shouldn't get rested very often. This MU feels like 55:45 Greninja at least.


I have commented on before briefly, and oh boy type advantage plays a role here. The Ninja Zard MU plays out like it does in actual Pokemon, Ninja just runs circles around the lizard and can absolutely wreck it with strong water attacks. Charizard is probably in the top 5 of easiest characters to combo for Greninja. On top of that, this is one of the few matchups I think Ninja wins in neutral. Charizard's frame data is even worse than ours, making just going in for grabs and jabs pretty safe options. Shurikens can be useful, but flamethrower beats them for some weird reason so we can't really use them at mid range. They are a nice option for poking Charizard across the stage and forcing an approach, however. In neutral we must be wary of Charizard's jabs, other than that he really doesn't have anything that comes out fast enough to beat our moves. Down throw is a kill throw at high %, other than that I wouldn't be too afraid about being grabbed by Zard for the same reason as Kirby.

When it comes to the offstage game, Charizard is very easily gimped. However, you put yourself in pretty risky waters by trying to go out there and hydro pump him as he uses fly (or sky attack or w/e). It is by far his most effective kill move and if the sweet spot hits you with any rage kiss your stock goodbye. That said, it is worth a shot especially if the Zard is far from the ledge.

Charizard can kill us super early and doesn't die for a while, so a very good Charizard can definitely make things interesting. However, Greninja's mobility means Charizard won't be landing big hits often. I'd say the matchup is 60:40 Ninja's favor.



All of my information comes from a customs-free environment. I know the Zard mains are high on Dragon Rush in this MU but we're not there yet in the meta. Sorry for the novel, please let me know if anything is inaccurate

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

@ WolfieXVII ❂
I choose you because Kirby is your forté.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

@ WolfieXVII ❂
I choose you because Kirby is your forté.

D'aw thanks
I'd have to collect my thoughts on this
First and foremost I think the MU is about 55-45 for Greninja
It was mentioned above, Kirby gets beaten in the air game, and can be followed up on easily with Greninja.
We can't really follow up with grabs, cept at low percents, maybe we could throw out a bthrow>bair but nothing that is great. So shielding away is a great option. You could bait most of Kirby's moves and punish accordingly due to kirby not having that many approaches (I play an aggro Kirby, so thats just me) You guys have a counter and a projectile which helps a lot, once you gain stage control, it's pretty much easy to read most kirbys from there
Um, watch for early down b kills when you try to follow up
Shield dair and that's a free shield grab
Greninja has good anti airs, and a range advantage, but most of his disjointed attacks are slow and Kirby's attacks come out pretty fast in general.
Greninja also falls pretty fast, which makes him combo-susceptible. (utilts anyone?)
Just throwing out random thoughts
Um, I honestly don't know what else to say XD
Any questions on moves or something?

 

[Ludiloco]

Shield dair and that's a free shield grab

I wish. Kirby's dair --> jab comes out way faster than Ninja's grab OoS. Makes the matchup much more frustrating than I feel it should be

 

[Sparky15]

Hey Kirby mains, the Greninja boards are going to discuss the Kirby MU, so any input would be very appreciated: http://smashboards.com/threads/mast...ypuff-ness-charizard-3-16-3-23.369356/page-14

Just keep your appetite in check.

So you needed some info? Here's what I know:

Kirby's Advantages: Kirby can easily up-tilt juggle fast-fallers, and Greninja is no exception. Logically, he could go for a lot of d-air setups, mainly for that up-tilt. Then Kirby can copy your Water Shurikens and boast a pretty solid projectile. Like Greninja, Kirby can probably get some follow-ups after fully charged Water Shurikens, as well. Kirby also holds a great arsenal of edgeguarding moves, b-air and d-air in particular. If he gets the hang of your recovering pattern or reads your Hydro Pump direction, the Greninja is gonna have a pretty hard time successfully returning onto the stage. Also, Kirby might hit you with Stone if Greninja is far enough below the ledge. Last, but not least, the little puff can crouch under your moves... sort of. He can duck under your f-smash and the side hitboxes of the up-smash, except if you're REALLY close to him to connect them. And he crouches under Greninja's grabs. Obviously, Kirby's light, so Greninja doesn't have that many true combos.

Greninja's Advantages: Well, Greninja can utilize his Water Shuriken to keep Kirby from approaching. Then he could apply pressure with n-airs and maybe f-airs as a mix-up. Catching Kirby in midair with up-smash is also essential, with a well enough read. Generally, I find Greninja to be useful at pressuring Kirby. And if you continuously rack up damage, you could score a well enough hit to possibly KO him. Greninja's jab and d-tilt work effectively, as well, since Kirby can't duck under that either.

Maybe a rough 60:40 in Kirby's favor, overall. Hope this was useful...