Meta Mastery of the Arts - Greninja Matchup Thread Archive

[Gunla]

Since discussion was light last week, I'm extending this week.

Your input is always appreciated.

 

[Gunla]

Results.... As you can see, doesn't really seem like many had to offer much for this MU, which is a bit disappointing. Not enough to really form any concrete basis down, either. Again, I highly encourage that you request characters for future weeks so that activity and participation remains strong.

Week 4:

Greninja VS Mr. Nintendo: Mario!
Mario is everywhere. I've faced so many Marios myself... With a solid kit and many ways to take out opponents, he is by far one of the best characters in game with his well-rounded arsenal. The Mario Boards have him listed as a 50:50, as do we; however, with the new things to look into along with stages, more analysis is required.
Current Rating: 50:50 Even
Stages to Avoid:
Stages to Pick:


Greninja VS The Fastest Thing Alive: Sonic!
With Mario this week, why not go with another MU with a character like the blue blur? His defensive and ground abilities are particularly frustrating and can break people down with spindash shenanigans. Generally considered to be one of the best characters in the game, he has many good matchups against characters.
Current Rating: 45:55 Slight Disadvantage
Stages to Avoid:
Stages to Pick:

Locuan
Camalange
Calling on you guys with these matchups. I'll be taking a message to your boards later, but I'd like to hear your opinions on this MU.

 

[Codaption]

Just gonna say it now, don't see Greninja having much trouble with Spindash. Though I could be missing something here, Shuriken should be able to break it from afar and up close you've got an Fsmash with quick startup and great disjoint.

As for future discussions.... I'll repeat my request for Puff myself. The prior discussion had very little representation other than a much dumber me, and the shield patch might bring some interesting stuff to light. (He doesn't lose much from Puff's newfound ability to space on shield, but Puff herself isn't reliant on shield so he doesn't gain much from being able to space Fair- really, it probably would've been safe before anyway.)

 

[FullMoon]

I'll just go over stages for now.



Avoid BF and DL as much as you can as Mario will make your life hell there with the platforms helping him extend his combos. Generally try to go for big stages with few platforms for him to play with. Which means FD, DH and T&C are probably the best stages to take him to. They're all pretty big and FD has no platforms at all and the other two have big enough space between platforms to help us not get combo'd very hard, T&C also has a smaller blastzone for us to play with if we can.



You need room to fight Sonic so ban small stages like BF, DL and SV. Lylat messes with our shuriken zoning which is very important in this MU so banning that one should take priority. Again, FD, DH and T&C are probably the best stages to take Sonic to since we have enough room to react to Spindash shenanigans and the terrain won't interfere with our zoning too much. T&C can be kinda bad for us becuase of Sonic killing vertically a lot though, so keep that in mind.

 

[Locuan]

I wish I could give good feedback on the match-up but this is actually a character I don't face much, if at all, in tournaments. I prefer giving advice based on experience rather than theorycraft at present.

 

[Camalange]

Locuan
Camalange
Calling on you guys with these matchups. I'll be taking a message to your boards later, but I'd like to hear your opinions on this MU.

I played a few Greninja recently, one of which being Ninjalink, so I have a pretty good understanding of the match-up. I think it's in Sonic's favor, but not anything drastic. I can elaborate more upon it once I have the time, or feel free to message me and then report back here :x

 

[bc1910]

I think we have an advantage over Mario. My experience of the MU is very suggestive toward that. He's one of our best top tier MUs. I would legitimately rather fight Mario than Zelda or D3, as crazy as that sounds. Part of that is just MU experience, but not entirely.

HeroMystic Thoughts on the Greninja:Mario MU?

 

[TimG57867]

I am neither a Greninja user or a knowledgeable Sonic user (I am working on him though. He covers some hard matchups for Kirby) but I have a brother who I feel is pretty good with Greninja and it made me want to look into this matchup. And while doing so I found this awesome set that feel really demonstrates what a set between a high level Sonic and Greninja can look like:

Seems like Greninja has to be really on point with his shuriken zoning as Sonic is incredibly mobile and can do some serious damage when he gets in as Game 4 demonstrates.

 

[FullMoon]

Sonic is a character you gotta be ready to time out if necessary. Shuriken zone him to get a lead and then just keep at it while trying to keep that lead for the rest of the match.

More than anything else you need a lot of patience with this MU. The moment you start getting impatient is the moment Sonic begins to steamroll you.

It's a very annoying MU but it's definitely doable, you need to be in the right mindset to fight Sonic

 

[Kite0692]

Since I have never post anything in this thread, I will try to do what I can writing the little I know.

Range is Mario's weakness in the matchup. Try to stay in an area where he can't hit you and you can. Mario has to approach since Greninja has a more spammable projectile (just mix up the timing against the cape), and you can literally perfect shield his projectile everytime.

Neutral game is really important. Mario can approach with either Bair (can hit you if you keep Short hopping), Nair and Dair. Try to shield as less as possible, because if Mario hits Greninja's shield he has basically no real offensive option (Jump OoS is the best option here Imo). Either way, you can beat Mario's Nair and Dair with Greninja's Bair, SH retreating Fair, Pivot Fsmash (run away and Fsmash) or just crouch and make your back face him and use Utilt in reaction. Crouched Greninja is not so easy to hit.
If he aproaches in the ground (run and shield or dash attack) you can SH retreating Fair him. Just remember to not be SH a lot because he can Bair you in the face.

Other little things:

- If he has rage and uses Down B, shield it. Not sure but, If I remember correctly, I think the push is only affected by rage. Thing is, this gets you off stage pretty easily and thats bad.

- Be careful of Mario's Fsmash. That thing reaches way too far. I have been hit by it several times while using my Fsmash and I MISS and he hit me in the face.

- Obviously, try to shield as less as possible.

- Try to kill him as early as possible. Mario dies from Usmash at like 93% or so without rage and before the hit.

- At 90% or so, If he grabs you near the ledge, please DI out. He can Dthrow to Fair if you DI towards the stage. Also, Fthrow wont kill you.

IMO: 50/50 Matchup. Greninja can keep him out pretty well, but once Mario gets in he has nasty combos on him.

 

[Illusion.]

He's one of our best top tier MUs. I would legitimately rather fight Mario than Zelda or D3, as crazy as that sounds.

wut

 

[Gunla]

wut

Please no oneliners.

Anyways, invited the Sonic & Mario boards here; for those of you from there, again, input is always appreciated.

 

[HeroMystic]

HeroMystic Thoughts on the Greninja:Mario MU?

Going to disclaim myself by saying my experience with Greninja is minimal at best.

I believe Greninja has the advantage in this MU over Mario.

Greninja has a number of things that scale well vs Mario. For one thing, Greninja takes advantage of Mario's blindspot. When you have him above you, his options are extremely limited and your options are extremely effective. U-air, U-tilt, and U-Smash all have disjointed hitboxes that Mario cannot contest with anything in his arsenal. There's nothing he can do besides avoid your juggles by either resetting to the ledge or mindgame his way back to the stage.

Mario can't do the same vs Greninja. He can't stalk Greninja below him because D-air is a thing, and while I believe Mario can U-smash it, the timing isn't free from my experience. This means Mario has to read Greninja more than the other way around. Greninja has more "guaranteed" out of his moveset than Mario does.

Mario may or may not have the advantage in neutral. Mario certainly has the tools to keep Greninja in control though. However, Greninja has the advantage in the other states.

40:60 Greninja's favor. Unpopular opinion, but an opinion nonetheless.

 

[Illusion.]

I can't see Greninja having an advantage. We outrange Mario, sure, but when he gets in and gets a dthrow, we're getting combo'd until 40% or so. Shadow Sneak canceling does not help at all vs. utilt unless there's a platform above. Mario is hard to edgeguard even with Hydro Pump since his Super Jump Punch comes out really fast and, for some reason, he just comes back from everything when he's offstage. We have poor OoS game (relying mostly on jab) and almost everything Mario does is safe on shield or has little endlag, making it hard to punish him. His cape shuts down our projectile.

I can see this being only 50:50 or even 45:55 in Mario's favor.

 

[FullMoon]

You gotta space Mario out, not get in his face. If you space yourself properly there's very little he can do to you. Cape does not shut down shurikens because Mario has to see it coming in advance in order to be able to reflect it in time. You can still poke him around with them just like how you can do with any character that has a reflector.

To fight Mario you gotta keep him out and get him in the air, once he's the air he becomes much easier to mess with because our disjoints will beat his aerials when he tries to land.

Punishing his stuff is hard but he'll also have a hard time punishing our stuff if we play properly.

Using Hydro Pump on his recovery is very possible, you just have to hit him with the water before he does the SJP because it has invencibility. It can be hard to do but if you do, you pretty much got a stock.

I can't see it as being worse than even for us.

 

[Codaption]

Shuriken is probably one of the hardest projectiles to cape because you can't hold the button down to get around charge mixups. it's a little tougher than messing with perfect shield timing, but it should be possible nonetheless.

 

[Illusion.]

You gotta space Mario out, not get in his face. If you space yourself properly there's very little he can do to you.

You're correct, I even said that.

Cape does not shut down shurikens because Mario has to see it coming in advance in order to be able to reflect it in time. You can still poke him around with them just like how you can do with any character that has a reflector.

Then why did people say Fox shuts down Shuriken because of his reflector when he was being discussed and it was agreed upon?

Using Hydro Pump on his recovery is very possible, you just have to hit him with the water before he does the SJP because it has invencibility. It can be hard to do but if you do, you pretty much got a stock.

That was my point. I didn't say it was impossible to edgeguard him, I just said it was hard due to his SJP being very fast and having invincibility.

 

[FullMoon]

Like Codaption said we can trick Mario with shurikens because we can time it so that we fire it so we hit him while he's in endlag. Fox can just sit on his reflector once we commit to shuriken and we have nothing we can do but fire and take it back. Even then you can still get use of shurikens against Fox just as long as you don't spam them.

Even if gimping Mario is harder than it looks, we're still doing a lot more to him than he's doing to us when we're offstage since not only can it lead to an early kill, HP gimping has no risk attached to it. Mario can try to cape or FLUUD us when we use Hydro Pump but if you mix up your recover well you shouldn't get hit by it most of the time.

 

[HeroMystic]

There's one last thing I should talk since it was brought up: The notion of "space Mario out". This is something that was thrown around a lot back in the early Smash 4 days. Mario has low range so of course the best thing to do for any player is to use your superior range against him. Now, I would also agree with this, if this was Brawl.

In Smash 4, Mario's speed and air control are all top tier. On top of this, Mario is literally one of the fastest attackers in the game. Meaning with good control, and good baiting, spacing out Mario is far easier said than done. This is indicated by the fact that so many character boards started changing the match-up ratio to either even or Mario's advantage when the metagame developed.

This is why it's often believed that Mario's neutral game outpaces Greninja's, because Mario will be dictating how neutral plays out more than Greninja will. Mario is proactive, while Greninja is reactive. In other words, neutral is about controlling the match, which relies more on stage control, limiting options, perfecting your reads.

 

[Camalange]

Just got a lot more Greninja practice lately so... Here we go. Basing this off of matches with Ninjalink and Venia, my local top Greninja players.

This match-up is... Interesting, to say the least. I kind of like it. Greninja can play a very hit-confirm oriented playstyle and wrack up serious damage on Sonic once he's in. Greninja is very read based, much like Sonic, but what makes Greninja interesting in this match-up is that he can create a lot of 50/50 situations that keep Sonic low to the ground. This will make most Sonics want to spring away out of instinct, in which case Greninja can either chase with Uairs or punish our landing attempts with Usmash since it has such a large hitbox and can possibly even kill, but at the very least, will wrack up serious damage.

The drawback, however, is Greninja doesn't have a lot of safe moves. Throwing out moves will get him spun up and down, and Greninja has very little tools to deal with a Sonic right in his face other than maybe jab if he gets one in time.

Well timed Shadow Sneaks can help Greninja escape and possibly even turn the tables on Sonic if we go for Spring > Aerial chases.

Down Smash covers the ledge if we try to recover low.

Up-B water idk what you call it things as an edgeguarding tool is pretty ineffective... A smart Sonic will just save their spring if you go for it a lot and even if you do water the spring, we launch so high from it that we can stil drift back and you have to predict and punish our landing. Not, like, totally useless but... Good luck trying to gimp.

Sonic also doesn't seem to have any aerials fast enough to punish Greninja's Dair on shield, so that's a relatively decent option. If we don't shield, you get a clean hit, and if we do, you can escape anyway.

Conversely, HA on can be punished by Greninja with OoS Usmash, I believe.

Water Shurikens are only something I'd recommend from the exact opposite side of the stage, as an airdodge read punish, or an edgeguarding tool. Mid range to close range it is useless because SANICSPEEEEED.

So all in all... I'd say this match-up is 55:45 Sonic's favor. Greninja has some interesting tools that can surprisingly handle the hedgehog pretty well. Good combo game, decent ground and air speed for chasing, shadow sneak to escape set-ups, and big damage off hits. He's ultimately held back by a couple things...

Whiffs = big punishes
Pretty easy to edgeguard... Recovery options are slow, easily baited, and aren't very safe to a Sonic Bair/Dair
Difficulty landing KO moves outside of reads, since Greninja won't really be getting edgeguard kills on us
Substitute and Shadow Sneak will help you avoid getting hit by spin but Sonic can almost always react and Spin Jump to avoid being punished anyway

I'm probably forgetting some things, but I'll stick check back on this, courtesy of Gunla .

 

[FullMoon]

Just got a lot more Greninja practice lately so... Here we go. Basing this off of matches with Ninjalink and Venia, my local top Greninja players.

This match-up is... Interesting, to say the least. I kind of like it. Greninja can play a very hit-confirm oriented playstyle and wrack up serious damage on Sonic once he's in. Greninja is very read based, much like Sonic, but what makes Greninja interesting in this match-up is that he can create a lot of 50/50 situations that keep Sonic low to the ground. This will make most Sonics want to spring away out of instinct, in which case Greninja can either chase with Uairs or punish our landing attempts with Usmash since it has such a large hitbox and can possibly even kill, but at the very least, will wrack up serious damage.

The drawback, however, is Greninja doesn't have a lot of safe moves. Throwing out moves will get him spun up and down, and Greninja has very little tools to deal with a Sonic right in his face other than maybe jab if he gets one in time.

Well timed Shadow Sneaks can help Greninja escape and possibly even turn the tables on Sonic if we go for Spring > Aerial chases.

Down Smash covers the ledge if we try to recover low.

Up-B water idk what you call it things as an edgeguarding tool is pretty ineffective... A smart Sonic will just save their spring if you go for it a lot and even if you do water the spring, we launch so high from it that we can stil drift back and you have to predict and punish our landing. Not, like, totally useless but... Good luck trying to gimp.

Sonic also doesn't seem to have any aerials fast enough to punish Greninja's Dair on shield, so that's a relatively decent option. If we don't shield, you get a clean hit, and if we do, you can escape anyway.

Conversely, HA on can be punished easily by Greninja with OoS Usmash, I believe.

Water Shurikens are only something I'd recommend from the exact opposite side of the stage, as an airdodge read punish, or an edgeguarding tool. Mid range to close range it is useless because SANICSPEEEEED.

So all in all... I'd say this match-up is 55:45 Sonic's favor. Greninja has some interesting tools that can surprisingly handle the hedgehog pretty well. Good combo game, decent ground and air speed for chasing, shadow sneak to escape set-ups, and big damage off hits. He's ultimately held back by a couple things...

Whiffs = big punishes
Pretty easy to edgeguard... Recovery options are slow, easily baited, and aren't very safe to a Sonic Bair/Dair
Difficulty landing KO moves outside of reads, since Greninja won't really be getting edgeguard kills on us
Substitute and Shadow Sneak will help you avoid getting hit by spin but Sonic can almost always react and Spin Jump to avoid being punished anyway

I'm probably forgetting some things, but I'll stick check back on this, courtesy of Gunla .

I think you're pretty much on-point with this analysis, there's just a few things that I'm not too sure on.

1) We can't punish HA with OoS Up-Smash I believe, we can only punish it we spotdodge it.

2) I don't think Greninja is easy for Sonic to edgeguard, Hydro Pump angles offer enough diversity that Greninja is only getting edgeguarded if he gets really predictable with the recovery angle. The only times I ever get edgeguarded by Sonic are when I go too low and get hit by a spring but that's just me being dumb.

Other than that I think you pretty much nailed it.

 

[Camalange]

I think you're pretty much on-point with this analysis, there's just a few things that I'm not too sure on.

1) We can't punish HA with OoS Up-Smash I believe, we can only punish it we spotdodge it.

That one I was unsure of myself, so you're probably right.

And yes, spotdodge is the proper answer to HA anyway.

2) I don't think Greninja is easy for Sonic to edgeguard, Hydro Pump angles offer enough diversity that Greninja is only getting edgeguarded if he gets really predictable with the recovery angle. The only times I ever get edgeguarded by Sonic are when I go too low and get hit by a spring but that's just me being dumb.

Other than that I think you pretty much nailed it.

Hmm... Maybe in my experience I had an easier time finding patterns. It's easier than, say Pikachu, who has a very similar recovery but is faster and has hitboxes.

But thank you for the input. Glad what I said seems to have captured a fair understanding.

 

[bc1910]

Camalange Good analysis which I mostly agree with. Couple of points.

What do you mean by "Dsmash covers the ledge if we recover low"? Trying to hit the ledge vulnerability with Greninja Dsmash is painful lol.

Agreeing that Hydro Pump is crap against Sonic's recovery. However I would suggest that you were indeed finding patterns to exploit in Greninja's recovery because it's very good, and mixing up Hydro Pump timing and Shadow Sneak usage should let him recover most of the time. Since you can't see the shadow offstage, Greninja can fake it quite easily (drift slowly on purpose) then jump away when you get close and HP to the stage. On the other hand I don't think Sonic has much to contend with besides Greninja's Bair (just a simple, solid edgeguarding aerial) and shurikens; I don't think we can do anything to Sonic when he recovers low, although maybe you can explain what you meant with the Dsmash thing. Neither character edgeguards the other well in my experience.

We can punish HA OoS with SH Fair I think. We could before the shieldstun patch and probably still can.

I think Greninja relies on Uthrow, Dthrow Fair, and very occasional edgeguards to get KOs in this MU. Rage is important for Uthrow to kill below 160 which is of course risky. I agree it's not easy for him. Sonic can struggle too but I mean, eventually you're going to land a Bair.

 

[Camalange]

Camalange Good analysis which I mostly agree with. Couple of points.

What do you mean by "Dsmash covers the ledge if we recover low"? Trying to hit the ledge vulnerability with Greninja Dsmash is painful lol.

Well, maybe I shouldn't of phrased it that way, but if we don't get the immediate snap or if we try to recover and drift to the ledge, Dsmash bodies. And I don't just mean drifiting horizontally. Like, if we recover low and it's not directly under the ledge, it can hit below and put us in a really bad spot.

Agreeing that Hydro Pump is crap against Sonic's recovery. However I would suggest that you were indeed finding patterns to exploit in Greninja's recovery because it's very good, and mixing up Hydro Pump timing and Shadow Sneak usage should let him recover most of the time. Since you can't see the shadow offstage, Greninja can fake it quite easily (drift slowly on purpose) then jump away when you get close and HP to the stage. On the other hand I don't think Sonic has much to contend with besides Greninja's Bair (just a simple, solid edgeguarding aerial) and shurikens; I don't think we can do anything to Sonic when he recovers low, although maybe you can explain what you meant with the Dsmash thing. Neither character edgeguards the other well in my experience.

If anything, I think Sonic has an easier time edgeguarding Greninja than he does him.

Maybe it's just a player thing, but it's not that I'm saying Greninja has a bad recovery, but it's easier to intercept than other characters I've dealt with.

We can punish HA OoS with SH Fair I think. We could before the shieldstun patch and probably still can.

Probably.

I think Greninja relies on Uthrow, Dthrow Fair, and very occasional edgeguards to get KOs in this MU. Rage is important for Uthrow to kill below 160 which is of course risky. I agree it's not easy for him. Sonic can struggle too but I mean, eventually you're going to land a Bair.

Well, that's not a fair point. I could say you're going to eventually land a Usmash, lol.

I think dash attack, or maybe dtilt, or both, can combo can combo into Fair? That kills. I won't argue though that Sonic has the easier time killing.

 

[bc1910]

That is true, if you're not right under the ledge Dsmash will end you. You can usually go right under though, or ride up the stage.

I honestly think both characters are bad at edgeguarding each other but, maybe. I may be overrating Greninja's recovery, its lack of a hitbox in front of him sucks. Then again it's super versatile, fast moving and fairly quick to start, and you have Shadow Sneak to threaten deep edgeguard attempts with an outright KO thanks to the back kick. It's worse than like Sheik, ZSS or Pika's recovery but I do think it's one of the best.

Well my point was that you can throw out SHAC Bair/offstage Bair with very few repercussions lol. Eventually you'll land it and you usually won't get punished hard for trying. We can't do that with Usmash. I don't remember the last time I saw Seagull get a kill that wasn't Bair or down angled Fsmash on ledgesnap.

Both DA and Dtilt combo into Fair yes. Neither are safe on block though and DA is a 50/50 at kill percent (you can airdodge the Fair).

 

[Seagull Joe]

beats at least 6-4. 's recovery is pathetically easy to hit with spring or bair. He cannot catch or trap well. He gets outdamaged. He can't kill without baited moves.

 

[Illusion.]

's recovery is pathetically easy to hit with spring or bair.

Clearly, you haven't played any good Greninjas, otherwise you'd know that it's hard to gimp a Greninja that knows how to mixup his recovery due to the amount of angles he can use to get back to the stage.

 

[Steve.Stone]

How do you guys deal with Metwo? I hate playing as him and hate playing against him because my opponent always just rolls or sidesteps everything so I can't get him with shurikens or grabs and then his aerials always seem to beat out mine.

 

[TTYK]

Are there any notable greninjas in florida?

 

[Codaption]

Clearly, you haven't played any good Greninjas, otherwise you'd know that it's hard to gimp a Greninja that knows how to mixup his recovery due to the amount of angles he can use to get back to the stage.

That, and the fact that he can literally just teleport right past Bair

 

[TTYK]

this is another thing... why is shadow sneak not a factor for us in recovering? even if predicted the opponent cannot do much about it.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

What no, SS if read is easily punished

They can easily swat you away if they know it's coming, which is kinda telegraphed by the lowers fallspeed while charging SS..

 

[FullMoon]

If the opponent is sitting in shield on the ledge expecting Shadow Sneak they won't be able to punish it since you'll go down before they can act.

If they come offstage you can go right through them or even hit them if you timed it well enough.

Finally if you fast fall before charging Shadow Sneak you begin falling really slowly which can throw people off.

Shadow Sneak is not the best recovery move but it's usually not a bad choice unless you teleport on stage with it.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Clearly, you haven't played any good Greninjas, otherwise you'd know that it's hard to gimp a Greninja that knows how to mixup his recovery due to the amount of angles he can use to get back to the stage.

Angle your up b to avoid a spring regularly bruh.

 

[FullMoon]

Angle your up b to avoid a spring regularly bruh.

We can use Substitute on the Spring and launch ourselves up with it, not even hard to time it since the spring falls slowly and Substitute stops us in mid-air

And you talk as if doing a > angle with Hydro Pump to avoid an entirely vertical projectile is some ungodly hard thing to do.

 

[Illusion.]

Angle your up b to avoid a spring regularly bruh.

That's extremely easy. And, like FullMoon said, Substitute can be used on the spring to bring our ourselves up with a strong hitbox.

 

[Codaption]

Yeah, I'm not really sure why spring would give Greninja much trouble even if he was recovering low. Again, if he is then he has a lot of ways to get around it, and if not then the thing does jack to stop him from coming back.

 

[Steve.Stone]

Even if someone does try to gimp you you can either tech and immediately stick to the wall for more mobility/another jump. Or you can just hydropump again if you are at lower percents.

 

[Gunla]

My apologies on this delay. With break now over with I can update this again.

Thanks for sticking with us thus far and thanks for those of you I contacted for pitching in.

Spoiler: Week 4 Results

: 50:50 Even (Unchanged) - Barring a few opinions, it was considered that range was the key thing for this MU. Respect Mario, and he'll respect you; his abilities suffer when you are able to keep him from getting in.
Stages to Avoid: Battlefield/Dreamland - Benefits heavily from platforms.
Stages to Pick: Town & City/Smashville - Platforms are not overwhelmingly favoring of Mario, gives decent space to work with

: 45:55 Slight Disadvantage (Unchanged) - Following the heavy analysis done by Camalange, it was mostly agreed that this was a solid 45:55. Not unwinnable, but just a bit less easy compared to other MUs. Mix up recovery and properly deal with Sonic's tools and this shouldn't be too difficult.
Stages to Avoid: Battlefield/Dreamland/Smashville - Low amounts of space can benefit Sonic heavily.
Stages to Pick: Duck Hunt/Final Destination - Gives Greninja a fair amount of space to work with against Spindash shenanigans.

I hope to spice things up with Week 5:

Greninja VS "Fire!": Fox!
Fox is a menace in this game. With devious tools and deveastating finishing options, as well as that pesky blaster, he's a very strong character and reasonably within the Top 10. This matchup has been quite the disagreement in the past, ranging from even to 40:60 and in-between. With the changes that have occured since the last major analysis, has anything changed, including balancing and character development?
Current Rating: 45:55 Slight Disadvantage
Stages to Avoid: Halberd
Stages to Pick:


Greninja VS The Master of 2s: Sheik!
Come on, guys. It's Sheik. Sheik is infamous as being what's considered to be "Greninja's worst matchup", featuring Needles and aerials, though that's a thing a lot of characters have against Sheik since she's where she currently is. It's became more and more discussed that this matchup may not be as bad as once thought, but is that more heresay or is it something to consider?
Current Rating: 40:60 Disadvantage
Stages to Avoid: Smashville
Stages to Pick:

 

[Blue Banana]

Hi, the Olimar sub-forum is discussing the Greninja MU. Any input is appreciated.