Neon's Match-up Discussion

[D e l t a]

Tragic Magic asked: "How do you guys best deal with Luigi? Any tips would be great!"

 

[AntSSB]

This matchup is pretty easy for me. Lucas destroys floaties so it's not hard to kill or rack up percent. Down air up smash kills super early, like 70% give or take 5%. So obviously since it's not hard to kill you probably have trouble getting in or starting combos. Basically with luigi you have to look at his movement and what he does out of wavedash. so usually they will either WD in and throw out a move or WD in then WD back out to try and punish you for trying to punish him. So once you figure out there movement patterns it's pretty easy to start punishing them. So most of this MU is looking at his movement patterns and learning how to punish them. It is a lot of bait and punish.

Important side notes:
- luigis tend to mash nair out of combos so try and bait it out and punish him for throwing it out.
- don't go to a super flat stage and give him room to move.
- pressure is really good against him. See how he reacts to certain things and figure out how you can punish his oos options.
- luigi will probably WD or roll oos, which is generally easy to punish if you can figure out which way they will go depending on where they are on the stage.
- mix up your recovery, his bair is really good at stuffing pkt so if he's holding ledge try to recover high or use tether.
- pkf is really good, it stops his WD approach as long he doesn't throw out a quick move and can lead to combos which should always lead to death.
- Lucas definitly wins this MU, try and get some friendlies in with the luigi and see what your doing wrong and why your getting hit or dropping combos, and try to look for options that will solve these problems.

 

[Tragic Magic]

This matchup is pretty easy for me. Lucas destroys floaties so it's not hard to kill or rack up percent. Down air up smash kills super early, like 70% give or take 5%. So obviously since it's not hard to kill you probably have trouble getting in or starting combos. Basically with luigi you have to look at his movement and what he does out of wavedash. so usually they will either WD in and throw out a move or WD in then WD back out to try and punish you for trying to punish him. So once you figure out there movement patterns it's pretty easy to start punishing them. So most of this MU is looking at his movement patterns and learning how to punish them. It is a lot of bait and punish.

Important side notes:
- luigis tend to mash nair out of combos so try and bait it out and punish him for throwing it out.
- don't go to a super flat stage and give him room to move. (Definitly ban FD)
- pressure is really good against him. See how he reacts to certain things and figure out how you can punish his oos options.
- luigi will probably WD or roll oos, which is generally easy to punish if you can figure out which way they will go depending on where they are on the stage.
- mix up your recovery, his bair is really good at stuffing pkt so if he's holding ledge try to recover high or use tether.
- pkf is really good, it stops his WD approach as long he doesn't throw out a quick move and can lead to combos which should always lead to death.
- Lucas definitly wins this MU, try and get some friendlies in with the luigi and see what your doing wrong and why your getting hit or dropping combos, and try to look for options that will solve these problems.

Thanks a ton broseidon I really appreciate it!

 

[D e l t a]

So a few things to add to Ant's post (he covered the basics phenomenally). Luigi has ton of burst movement so pay attention to your spacing and stay back more than you would normally think. His range is small, but his power is great.

To relate Lucas to other characters, think Melee Sheik with guaranteed followups and a great projectile. Now give Sheik Fox's Upsmash and Falco's Dair and that's basically Lucas.

Here's a few specifics on the matchup:

Luigi sucks in the air

• Any time you can get a grab, you'll have followups from down throw that can beat out / trade with his Nair.
• Bait Nair and punish with Utilt / Upsmash or spaced out Fair / Ftilt.
• You can sometimes punish his landing with a grab.
  • Be wary of the extremely low end lag on all of Luigi's aerials
  • Luigi can aerial -> land -> spot dodge before Lucas can dash in with a JC grab.
• Luigi has to fade away or force a landing. Punish the landings or make Luigi double jump then punish accordingly from there.

It's hard to juggle Luigi, but do-able if you're good with baits.

***Don't go for long hits / combos*** The longest combo that will be dealt to Luigi is maybe 4-6 hits long and will leave him near kill % (about 60-80 as Ant mentioned). The reason that Lucas v Luigi is in Lucas' favor is because of the early kill potential and keep-away game. Make sure to end your combos with a move that kills or sets up a ledge guard. Lucas has a rough time securing hits on Luigi when they're at higher %'s and Luigi can punish whiffed grabs hard.

Force ledge guards often

• Use PKF & PKT to attack Luigi at a distance
  • One of the few times I find grounded PKF and PKT1 useful
• Learn his SideB timings and avoid misfires
  • Ledge guard like Fox with rising Bairs and UAirs (the hitbox behind Lucas sends opponents up and behind)
  • **Make sure not to DJC and SD
• Luigi's DownB has endlag similar to Mario's, but goes much higher. Respect the height and punish accordingly
• Ftilt and Dtilt are great at the ledge and very safe if your spacing & timing are good enough. They're especially good to use against his UpB

 

[trancex]

Be careful shielding high aerials from Luigi too, because he can easily throw out another one to catch you trying to do something OoS.

 

[Tragic Magic]

Thank you guys so much! I should be going to my locals this Thursday, so I'll be using all of the knowledge you guys told me. I feel much more confident about the match up now.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

So what are generally considered Lucas' mu spread like. General groups works (such as sword characters, spacies, fastfallers, super floaties, characters who like to cc, etc).

 

[trancex]

Eh, I think it's too early to really say for sure. The one thing we know is Lucas seems built to destroy floaties. He can combo them like no other, and kills them earlier than pretty much anyone.

Spacies are debatable. Falcon is debatable. Sheik seems like 60-40 in her favor. Marth is debatable, but it seems like Marth wins.

 

[D e l t a]

Lucas primarily wins against
Floaties, save for Mewtwo
Large characters - Bowser, DK, Ganon

Loses to:
Good projectile characters - link, mario, samus, etc,
Large disjoint: Marth, Roy, Ike, Mewtwo, etc
Good priority: Fox, Falco, Sheik

==

Not to say that Lucas outright loses to the characters mentioned, simply how I grouped them.
For instance, Marth & Roy's sword are great at zoning Lucas in neutral, but once you're in their face, Lucas runs a train on Marth/Roy.
Or when I say Lucas beats larger characters like Ganon, we can't ignore the fact that he has a chain grab lasting until about 70-90% at which point he gets a free aerial to finish the combo

 

[Scraket]

also **** Rob

 

[D e l t a]

^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Kipcom]

also **** Rob

Now you know true pain

 

[zen-bz-]

Thoughts on Lucas vs Snake? One of my friends likes to play as him but his Snake is very sub-optimal. So I don't have good MU experience against him. Playing AS him, however, I feel like, in general, his stage control abilities are quite a problem for Lucas, whose movement is ground-based. He also seems to have a great punish game against Lucas due to his weight.

Playing as Lucas, I feel like once Lucas gets in on Snake and past his traps through creative movement, his punish game against him is excellent. My descriptions of my experiences are very broad as I don't have exactly the best understanding of how the game works, which is why I'm asking for your guys' opinions.

I'm also posting the same thing in the Snake forums to get their input as well. Again, thoughts appreciated.

 

[D e l t a]

I actually just played that matchup for about 4 hours this weekend vsing Yata! in bracket & friendlies. Expect this post to be very long as Snake vs Lucas is a very in-depth matchup that requires patience, thought, and meticulous spacing and heavy zoning. I'll work more on this tomorrow

Here's my digression on the MU:

Neutral is the most important aspect of this matchup. This is where you will be fighting Snake the most and the area that should be focused on highly. I'll break down Snake's neutral into a few aspects- grenades, land mines, C4, and ground vs aerial game.

==

Grenades
By far, the most difficult part in overcoming Snake in this matchup. Grenades are Snake's main tool as they restrict movement and force smart decisions while punishing poor spacing and reckless aggression. IIRC, grenades come out on frame 8, which may seem like a lot of time, but is deceptively quick. They deal 12% from the explosion hit and 2-3% when thrown at a player.

Snake players will typically roll grenades down from platforms, especially at the start of a match. If you act as soon as the grenade is thrown down, you can avoid the grenade hitting you when being thrown. Furthermore, Lucas is fast enough at the start of a match to run off the Battlefield platform and punish Snake throwing a grenade downwards.

~Thrown grenades can be dealt in a number of ways~​

The best way to deal with thrown grenades is simply to shield the grenade or run away from it.

If you're close enough, you can catch the grenade by hitting A on the ground and IMMEDIATELY throwing it back or by aerial glide tossing it back. Must be within 3-4 character spaces away or else Lucas will get hit by the grenade's explosion.

There's also a precise spacing where you can PKF the grenade and stop it right in front of Snake. Sometimes it can explode on Snake as well.

~~

Now as for the grenades that Snake doesn't throw at you, these can be much more tricky to counter.

If Snake has a grenade in hand, he has the following options:

1. Throw up -> jump -> AGT
2. Shield -> AD grab grenade -> throw it or run forward and shield / air dodge near you
3. Go in shield and bait an approach

Snake can pull a grenade quickly and go right into shield if they think you're going to approach. If you don't happen to approach, this is where Snake will pick one of the first two options listed above.

The main way I've found to counter grenades is to run up next to Snake and cross him up in shield. Snake can only cipher, Dair, and Bair OoS. Lucas' jumpsquat is 2 frames faster than Snakes (4 vs 6 frames) and his aerials all come out frame 4 or 5, save for Bair. If the Snake player likes to wait for the grenade's explosion then immediately attack OoS, Lucas can beat out any of Snake's options if the Lucas player is fast enough.

Likewise, you can wait for the grenade to explode while Snake is in shield, then grab him during their shield stun or start applying pressure. Snake can't pull a grenade out in shield and it takes time to have a grenade in hand, which they can't do while being combo'd or pressured.

If Snake is landing, you have to space an Uair as to hit his lower body, just below the torso. Otherwise, you will trigger the explosion. Snake can also pull some crazy movement and will often land with his back to you, where the grenade is even more exposed.

Stages
Good stages in this matchup would be Smashville especially, PS2, FD, GHZ, and Yoshi's Island (Brawl).

Battlefield is typically a great Snake stage, but in this MU, it's only 55/45 Snake's favor on this stage.

Yoshi's Story is a toss-up, as his Ftilt, Utilt, Bair, Fair, and explosives kill very early here. It's hard to be very aggressive on this stage and proper mine, C4, and grenade placement can be extremely challenging to deal with avoiding on this stage.

Dreamland isn't impossible to win on, but it's definitely one of Lucas' least favorite stages and Snake's best stage by far. I'd say it's around 70/30 on Dreamland since there's more room to avoid explosives and going deep to ledge guard is much easier here. Beware of Snake camping the platforms.

 

[trancex]

How does Lucas get in on Zelda?

 

[prem]

all of her moves are super wiff punishable besides fsmash basically, so you kind of just dash dance in this space between where her dins has to travel and not. also she actually really kind of hates freeze because her answer to most projectiles is naryus but it doesnt hit you half the time.


also Scraket can confirm downthrow to up smash is broken against zelda LOL

 

[zen-bz-]

So after heading to the Snake forums regarding Snake v. Lucas, here's what cisyphus came up with:

I think without platforms Lucas can make the MU even, but with platforms snake absolutely dominates. Lucas has some trouble with vertical movement due to how much recovery he loses from using his double jump in tandem with a solid up air to approach with. PK Freeze is a really difficult thing for snake to deal with as all of his projectiles demand considerable frame commitment and Lucas's PK Freeze travels far and relatively fast, disrupting that. There's a local Lucas here where I have to go Marth against them otherwise I get PK freeze camped for 8 minutes and lose lol. The combo potential on both of them is enormous, and having a spike and a meteor in Lucas's kit helps considerably. If you can keep the pressure up on Snake and mix up when you go in, I think it can be really hard for Snake.

Do you guys pretty much agree with this, and what would you add/change?

 

[D e l t a]

Platforms are definitely good for Lucas to maneuver around Snake just as much as Snake can platform camp with C4/grenades. They also help when avoiding the landmines, since you have more options when landing.

 

[Kipcom]

I think im going to update my MU list later. I see some things that I feel need to be changed

 

[D e l t a]

Will add details later. Updates to some matchups. + means in Lucas favor, - means in other character favor

Luigi: +1 or even
Jigglypuff: +2 (still easy, but not AS easy to fight)
Marth: -1. Almost dead set on 45/55 Marth favor now. Still needs to be optimized.
Wario: -1 or even. Also very unpracticed MU
Ness: -1 or even. Same as Marth. Lots of depth, similar to Fox v Falco in Melee.

 

[Zarkdion]

Got a bunch of questions for you guys. First off, what should be my plan against a fairly aggro DK? Or against any DK in general? And I probably need a character to help me cover my spacie and Marth matches, so what is a good secondary that can cover that role?

 

[D e l t a]

DK's approach options suck, but they beat out PKF. Stay outside of dash attack range and bait DK into the air. His jump is full commitment aside from SH Nair, which still has decent end lag. There's enough end lag on his aerials that you can space around them and get a grab or land on top of him with a Dair / Nair for free, then followup from there. Full hop aerials suck for obvious reasons.

Now as for his grab, stuff that with any grounded attack, PKF, or a spaced out grab of your own. His dash dance shouldn't be intimidating if you're outside the grab range. DK's jabs are really good, but only if you get caught inside his range.

Stop DK from running at you by shooting PKF or dash dancing around and intimidating him. Once you get a hit confirm DK's escape options are terrible. Crossup up DK as much as possible and avoid shield grabs. His main punishes result from getting a grab.

And I probably need a character to help me cover my spacie and Marth matches, so what is a good secondary that can cover that role?

You really don't need a secondary. Focus on Lucas for now if you plan on being serious about smash. Work on your neutral and solidify your punish game. Spacies & Marth are extremely easy to gimp / 0-death if you practice your punishes enough. If you don't have a good neutral in the first place, Spacies & Marth will body any character you try to play.

The only character you'd really need a secondary for would be Falco and maybe Marth, due to their priority and range. Other than those two, Wolf is somewhat easy to fight against, as is Fox. You can punish those characters with ease.

Just keep practicing for now. Don't worry about a secondary if you truly enjoy playing Lucas.

 

[Zarkdion]

Dude, you're the best. Whelp, back to the 'ol Luigi's Mansion for my daily SHFFLs and DJCs.
"X-up-Cright-L...X-up-Cdown-L... X-up-Cup-L... run-DownB-Wavedash..."

 

[D e l t a]

Anytime man, it's what I'm here for

Whoever said use Luigi's Mansion for training shield pressure / hitlag is godlike. Saves so much time on setting up and it's wayyyy easier to do repeatedly. I can't thank them enough

 

[Zarkdion]

I learned about it from one vid where Neon did crazy **** to a pillar for hand warmers. Such a smart idea!

 

[Kipcom]

(+3) 65/35
(+2) 60/40 **
(+1) 55/45 *
(0) 50/50
(-1) 45/55 *
(-2) 40/60

(-3) 35/65 N/A

- Moved DDD from +3 to +2 cuz Ripple salt Kappa.
Really though, considering the only good DDD MU knowledge I've had is Smur, and he likes to move a lot and go in more than most DDDs, playing Ripple showed me just how weird fighting that character is if he's patient enough. Not to mention the grab/edgeguard game on Lucas is strong, so while I think it's an awful MU for DDD, I don't think it's unwinnable for DDD, just stressful on both sides lol

- Moved Wario from -1 to -2. Not even cause of Strong Bad, but because I've had a rather bad history with this character and most Warios I know seem to think the MU is 60/40 in Wario's favor. It's definitely a doable MU, but pretty annoying if Lucas gets grabbed, put into a tech/tech roll situation (Wario's Down Smash and Side B can mess you up), or knocked off stage (Wario's nair is godlike and will invalidate any of our recovery actions if it lands).

- Moved ROB from -1 to -2. Chaingrabs, amazing CC options vs Lucas, safe options on Lucas' shield since we don't have a good shield grab. The edgeguarding by ROB in this MU is also very hard to deal with. He gets near guaranteed (if not guaranteed) throw setups on Lucas, can tech chase him easily, Up-air covers a lot of space above him and it's really good from under platforms, and he's got a great OoS game due to Glide Tossing.

- Moved Fox from -2 to -1. I think the biggest game changer in this MU is easily the shine nerf. Back in 3.0 and earlier, getting shined out of tether from the ledge meant you were dead, no questions asked. Now, you can get shined a lot more offstage and still have enough time to Up-B back to stage. Fox still beats Lucas on stage, with his superior pressure, bigger hitboxes, and longer lasting hitboxes that render PK Freeze useless at times, but Fox is still Fox. That means we have chaingrabs (when we actually land the grab), juggles for days, somewhat easy setups for killing Fox when he's offstage, and as long as the stocks are even or very close to even (going by both % and amount of stocks) Fox laser camping doesn't really mean much. Fox's pressure is probably the most dangerous thing, but I think that Lucas can fight back if pushed hard enough.

- Moved Ganondorf from +2 to +1. When I put him at +2, I actually completely forgot about Ganon's chaingrabs to death. Ganon's got a lot of big and heavy hitting hitboxes. Not to mention that fair and jabs seem really safe on Lucas's shield. His good platform movement and big hitboxes mean that he doesn't really HAVE to worry about PK Freeze (though platforms in general make PK Freeze worse). The biggest issue for Ganon is that he's slow and big, which are typically an auto disadvantage when dealing with Lucas, which is why I still think Ganon loses, just not as badly as I once thought. Ganon's got some good stuff for edgeguarding Lucas as well.

- Moved snake from 0 to -1. He's got chaingrabs that lead into a free C4 stick. He can also plant a mine at the very edge of the stage, and it will hit Lucas the moment he reels towards the ledge. He can also force situations on tether recoveries by planting C4 in front of the ledge and then grabbing it, so that we either choose to land on stage and die to down smash, or we fade back and get killed by back air. His down air is practically almost as good as ours, and he can use it similarly to how I use dair. Which means it will setup for kills, combos, and even tech chases. Snake can camp on high platforms while dropping C4 and Lucas doesn't really have a good answer for that other than just not even going near the C4 and waiting it out. I also feel like intangible tranq helps Snake out a lot, where in 3.5 PK Freeze would usually trade with the tranq and then get rid of it, now Snake can catch you on your landing from PKF with a tranq, and even if PKF hits him, he'll have more than enough time to punish you. Snake without tranqs becomes a MU in Lucas's favor, I think. I feel it's especially true if you're at low percents, because then not even random grenades and mines will put you in a free kill situation for Snake and you can respect him a bit less. Snake's CC dtilt is godlike btw. Beats most crossup options since it hits behind him, and it will combo into potential death.


Not sure whether I should move Marth from -2 to -1. I still don't think there are many Marths are there who are playing this MU right. The only good thing about this MU is that even if Marth juggles you a lot, you'll probably end up around that "Marth percent" where he'll have a harder time killing you (unless you just run into an fsmash or something). Though honestly, I think that if Marth is letting Lucas into that high of a percent, he's doing something wrong. Marth should be focused on getting Lucas offstage and edgeguarding him similarly to a spacie tbh.


Well that was a s***load of text. Anyway, tell me what you guys think. I welcome any and all feedback and potential discussion.

 

[zen-bz-]

*snip*

Where's Pit ;_;

 

[Kipcom]

I forgot him last time too


This can only mean that Pit truly is a dead character.

 

[zen-bz-]

I forgot him last time too


This can only mean that Pit truly is a dead character.

I'm even making a guide on this dead character tooooooo
Seriously though, where do you think he stands?

 

[D e l t a]

on the topic of Wario, I'd like to discuss that further. There's only a few Wario players out there, but those that use the character mess up our group of Lucas players badly. Main things: dealing with Wario in neutral like his Dtilt, SideB, etc, and escaping bad situations like grab followups and tech chases

 

[Kipcom]

I'm even making a guide on this dead character tooooooo
Seriously though, where do you think he stands?

Depends on the kind of day I'm having.

On some days he's mid tier. Some days he's bottom 10.

 

[Xcite]

Ehh I think that creating MU charts for Lucas is still too difficult this early in the meta. For example you list Wario being 60:40 in favor of Wario mainly due to him having an insane punish game. However I think this is just a side effect of how free his combo game is on Lucas (and everyone else really) but this neglects that Lucas has the ability to do the same to him. Also I think that you didn't consider Wario's largest weakness, range. As we all are aware, this is Lucas' weakness too but in this specific MU Lucas disjoint is enough to give him an advantage in that regards. I'm not suggesting in any way that Lucas has the favor in the MU but that all aspects of it should be examined before we come to a conclusion. I'd actually say that for basically all of the -2 MU's on your list.

 

[D e l t a]

I agree with the idea you're suggesting. But this is the beautiful thing about rough draft MU lists- we can have an open discussion forum and talk about why we feel a certain MU is good / bad / even. Furthermore, players unfamiliar with Lucas or players that are trying to understand a MU against Lucas, now have access to our thoughts & ideas on the MU. They can see what works and what doesn't, what they should / should do; the strengths and weaknesses in he matchup.

 

[Kipcom]

but this neglects that Lucas has the ability to do the same to him.

eh yes and no. I didn't really feel like it needed to be said because who doesn't Lucas combo in this game? I can say for every single bad Lucas MU, "Oh sure, Lucas gets combo'd but Lucas can do the same." but honestly it'd feel pretty redundant to have to add that in for every single bad MU when I'm only making discussion and not writing out some MU guide. Remember, this is all opinion/theory made from both observation and experience. I think it's pretty universally known that Lucas has no problems comboing anyone in this game, even characters who are awkward to combo, like Luigi. But if you wanted me to spell it out in plain text, well there you go. The fact that I don't have anyone in the -3 section for Lucas is also kind of me saying but not explicitly saying that Lucas can and will f*** anyone in the game up if played right (That and he's obviously just too damn good in general to have a MU THAT bad).

As for the whole range thing, I think Wario's aerial mobility helps in contesting Lucas' slight disjoint. Plus, Wario's range isn't even that much smaller than Lucas's, honestly. Go to the edge of a PS2 platform and compare how far some of their aerials reach and you'll see that both Wario's fair reaches just as far as Lucas', and his bair clearly outranges Lucas' fair. Ftilt will outreach most of Wario's approaches, however. Either way, they both have a range problem, and I don't think it's too much of a difference to give one character a major edge over the other.

I'm not suggesting in any way that Lucas has the favor in the MU but that all aspects of it should be examined before we come to a conclusion. I'd actually say that for basically all of the -2 MU's on your list.

Fair enough. So do you think that Lucas has no -2 MUs in the game, that we shouldn't express which MUs we think may be bad for him (not for a while, at least), or are you simply saying that I may have the wrong ones?



Sidenote: Another reasoning for my change in Wario's position is because most other Warios I've talked to seem to think the same thing, but they could be wrong too. No one's saying my information or theirs is factual, after all.

 

[D e l t a]

Range isn't really a huge factor for or against Lucas (although 3.0 Fair range would be nice). A long range projectile & decent run speed combined with great air game, despite his bad drift, makes Lucas able to hold his own against the cast.

Now the thing about Wario is that he plays like Puff weaving in and out of your face with aerials, but has relatively safe landing mixups (Dair, bite, or fade back), and a forced tech chase (Dsmash). Lucas' tech options are garbo, which makes this a scary situation.

How can we better avoid his grabs? A lot of stuff seems to lead into grab which is Wario's main punish on Lucas. Also, what are some optimal ways to play neutral aside from zoning with PKF? Wario's aerials stop PKF easily and he's usually in the air regardless.

 

[AntSSB]

Guys I have a question. How do you guys play neutral against ivy and fox?

 

[D e l t a]

Ivy is easy

• Bait out her razor leaf. Lucas' Fair, Dair, reverse hitbox of Uair (maybe?), jab and PKF all beat out razor leaf and leave you at an advantage. Zair could be useful, but it would primarily reset the situation back to neutral. Run up shield -> WD OoS once the razor leaf passes shield, or throw a PKF out. If they throw out Razor Leaf on shield, it's a free punish OoS (Dair, Fair, grab, etc).
• Space around Fair, RAR Bair & Dtilt. These have the same approximate range (accounting for her aerial drift for Fair) and are the largest disjoints. Ivy's almost always use a Fair & Dtilt wall with razor leaf to cover gaps. Beat this pattern and you'll win neutral.
  • RAR Bair is the best of those 3 and use more as an approach option / heavy zoning tool. If it's max range Bair and Ivy fades back, throw a PKF out or wait for her to land and punish the followup option. Ivy's will usually throw a razor leaf if they feel there's a safe distance they created between you, or jabs if they feel you're about to corner them and want a safe GTFO option. If they're really cornered, they'll roll, spot dodge, or simply shield. Make sure you know which once is coming. Safely approach with Nair, magnet, or low hitting / DJC Fair if you run up to punish their whiffed Bair.
• Don't get caught up by seed bombs. Dair goes thru them if she shoots below you. If you're horizontally facing each other, you can just shield or dodge them in the air. Be wary of the grounded stun hitbox.
• Everything else is mainly an unsafe approach. Nair & WD forward jab have little range despite being quick, hard to punish moves. Ftilt is somewhat slow on startup and easy to punish since she moves forward. If you see her running towards you, don't panic. Make her respect your range and understand that your move can beat hers out.

My flowchart vs Ivy in neutral:
Did Ivy use razor leaf?

• Yes?
  • Can I punish it or beat it out?
    • Yes - Ok do it. I just won neutral
    • No - Reset back to neutral and find another opening
• No?
  • Fair/Dtilt/Bair wall?
    • Yes - Figure out the pattern and win neutral
    • No - She's either dash dancing or open to a hit. Throw a PKF or approach. I must be controlling stage at this point; therefore, I've won neutral

Pretty simple. Also, Ivy dies easily under 100% almost every stock when I fight Ivy's including JZ and Papa.

 

[D e l t a]

For now, I'll refer you to Neon's post on the first page here: http://smashboards.com/threads/neons-match-up-discussion.341751/#post-15943530

I think I'll re-write the Fox MU next month in spare time. I played for about an hour vs my friend's Fox where we essentially traded 0-death stocks back n forth. I'll dive into the punish game, neutral game, and spacing the most, while letting Neon's post do the rest of the talking. As for ledge guards, I'm going to compile a quick video on Fox's recovery option coverage soon. That will come with my Lucas combo compilation guide I'm slowly completing........

 

[Swampy948]

So it's probably in here somewhere, but I'm too lazy to look for it.

What are Lucas' tools against crouch cancelling. I believe someone said magnet=>uair, but that sadly doesn't seem to do anything for me. They continue to crouch and I get punished every time. So far, the only thing I can use is magnet=>dair or magnet=>magnet, maybe throw in a dair, but nothing else. It'd be nice to have an option at least a bit easier to pull that those

 

[prem]

magnet jc grab
magnet wd forward pivot grab
mag spaced fair
mag wd back

both uair and nair get beaten by cc so yeah. Idk i just grab enough to make them not want to cc basically