Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Garteam]

They clearly are though. The one tiny reference that game had has been completely purged from the franchise ever since.

Past tense, my friend. GoldenEye wasn't off the table, which we explicitly know for Melee because Bond was briefly considered. That makes a lot of sense if you're thinking like it's 2001 and Goldeneye is the face of console FPSes. This logic doesn't exactly hold up in 2024 because Goldeneye doesn't have the same prestige as it once did. Now, its moreso fondly remembered as a stepping stone in the genre's development.

The Witcher is in a place that is more analogous to GoldenEye. Yes, the IP started in a different medium, but the video game adaptation has become so all-encompassing that it has effectively replaced the original work in the mind of the public. The game and its characters stand on their own merits, rather than being notable because they're adapting a book.

It just seems weird that people are treating the "no fourth-party" rule so strictly. I think it's because Sakurai was pretty strong in his language when dealing with Goku, SpongeBob, Shrek, etc. However, being very firm on those characters makes sense when they're unambiguously associated with another medium by the general public. We've already seen some flexibility with it early in the series' life for an exception to this general rule when an adaptation becomes large and important enough to overshadow the original work with GoldenEye. I don't think seeing this rule break is that unreasonable in what would likely be a one-time exception for a character with extremely unique and specific circumstances that will likely never occur again.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Past tense, my friend. GoldenEye wasn't off the table, which we explicitly know for Melee because Bond was briefly considered.

He never was. What Sakurai was talking about in that interview where he talks about Bond was that IF he was considered, there'd be a whole lot of legal red tape to get through

 

[Gengar84]

Imagine how different the speculation scene would be if James Bond actually did make it into Melee though.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Let him be the game's I-no equivalent.

The idea of K.K. flying around the stage is super funny to me.

 

[PeridotGX]

I've been thinking about an Ogerpon moveset, and I've ran into a bit of a snag. I'm obviously using the masks as her main gimmick, and I'm interpreting them as akin to Shulk's monado arts (with the key difference being they last indefinitely, but are less powerful to compensate). Obviously the Hearthflame mask is going to make Ogerpon more of a glass cannon, and the Cornerstone mask makes her bulkier, but the last two are giving me a bit of a headache.

In Scarlet and Violet, the Teal Mask seems to be associated with speed, while the Wellspring mask doesn't seem to have a clear stat association. But at the same time, the Teal Mask is Ogerpon's default form, it would feel wrong making it not be the baseline in Smash. I'm planning on swapping the two - making Wellspring the faster form, while Teal Mask is the basic boring form. Would anyone complain about this?

 

[DarthEnderX]

Imagine how different the speculation scene would be if James Bond actually did make it into Melee though.

I mean, I wouldn't be here. Cause I wouldn't give a **** about a game that could just have anyone. See: Fortnite.

 

[SharkLord]

I'm going to preface this by saying that assuming Smash launches a couple years into the Switch 2's lifespan, this is probably too late to factor into the base roster. And if Sakurai's secret project is really Smash (Which is still a big if), this is definitely late to factor into the base game. And obviously, nobody's a lock, and just because everything seems to line up for them doesn't mean they will get in

But also, hoo-wee

(There's supposed to be a tweet here but SmashBoards won't send it through so just look at the charts)

Lookit those stocks. Granted, I'm pretty sure this is for Steam in particular, and it's free limited-time beta test and not a full $70 game that would probably remain on the shop until the PlayStation Store goes down. But those are still some insane numbers. Monster Hunter's already hit it big after World released, and it's only set to continue to grow. If a Hunter misses its shot for base Smash 6, they'll be a pretty appealing pick for DLC.

which is EXACTLY what I want to hear

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I've been thinking about an Ogerpon moveset, and I've ran into a bit of a snag. I'm obviously using the masks as her main gimmick, and I'm interpreting them as akin to Shulk's monado arts (with the key difference being they last indefinitely, but are less powerful to compensate). Obviously the Hearthflame mask is going to make Ogerpon more of a glass cannon, and the Cornerstone mask makes her bulkier, but the last two are giving me a bit of a headache.

In Scarlet and Violet, the Teal Mask seems to be associated with speed, while the Wellspring mask doesn't seem to have a clear stat association. But at the same time, the Teal Mask is Ogerpon's default form, it would feel wrong making it not be the baseline in Smash. I'm planning on swapping the two - making Wellspring the faster form, while Teal Mask is the basic boring form. Would anyone complain about this?

I feel like if the stances are permanent, they should be designed with how they effect her playstyle in mind...Honestly Monado Arts should as well, but eh.

Looking at each mask's effect, there actually isn't a basic mask, but I do see the problem with the Wellspring and Cornerstone Masks both upping defensive stats. One thing you could do is something like:

• Teal Mask: Fast, either able to play rushdown, or is akin to a normal swordfighter if she uses her giant mace for most of her attacks.
• Wellspring Mask: Is able to play at long range with projectiles, or has counter-zoning strats. Not the most direct translation of Special Defense, but I think it would work.
• Hearthflame Mask: Glass cannon fits here. Chunky damage, but dies the earliest.
• Cornerstone Mask: Has high weight and a big shield, and has armor on a lot of attacks, but is slower, so it has to make use of its armor.

 

[ninjahmos]

If Monster Hunter ever gets into Smash, which weapon do you think they would use? The Great Sword?

 

[Shinuto]

I mean, I wouldn't here. Cause I wouldn't give a **** about a game that could just have anyone. See: Fortnite.

Fornite loses charm when it just has everything under the sun. It likes oh wow another skin added to the collection, it's like Funko pop, it stops mattering since it just ***** itself out to everyone

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Fornite loses charm when it just has everything under the sun. It likes oh wow another skin added to the collection, it's like Funko pop, it stops mattering since it just ***** itself out to everyone

I don't think it's that.

I think it's more that Fortnite just doesn't care much about each IP they add. Sure they'll add a couple references, but a ton of IPs included don't feel like the characters or worlds are actually included.

 

[Sucumbio]

Link: BOTW
Toon Link: WW/ TOON
Zelda: EOW/ TOY
Ganondorf: TOTK
Sheik: OOT
Impa: SS
Midna: TP
SKull Kid: MM

I'd be happy with this.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

RE: Goldeneye and Geralt

Goldeneye is hardly an "exception".

Literally the only thing from it we ever got was the design of a bomb. A bomb that has nothing to do with the film/books in question and was created by Nintendo/Rare for the use of the game. And said design hasn't been featured since international Melee to begin with.

A FAR cry from adding someone like "the game version of James Bond/Geralt/whatever".
This is literally like saying Sora's Hidden Mickey keychain means anything when everything else that's from Disney's original IPs present in Kingdom Hearts had been scrubbed out for Ultimate. Even the "game versions of Donald and Goofy" that are by Sora's side most of the franchise.

People can talk a big game about how "The Witcher games replaced the books in the mind of the general public" until they're blue in the face.
Doesn't make it any less of a non-argument that amounts to absolutely nothing.

Here's the only thing that actually matters:

The Witcher is a licensed IP.
Geralt of Riveria is a licensed character from said licensed IP.
Licensed characters from licensed IPs have been specifically excluded thus far and that's something unlikely to change going forward unless Sakurai/Nintendo/whoever finally cave in to all the endless Goku requests that happen in spite of what Sakurai has said repeatedly about the subject.

End of story. Bye bye. See ya later.

 

[Gengar84]

I say Smash should add Joanna Dark at some point. She’s the closest thing to James Bond we can get. Perfect Dark was the spiritual successor to GoldenEye. I’m curious If the no non-game origin rule also applies to music. It would be cool to get some GoldenEye songs along with Joanna if she ever makes it.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I say Smash should add Joanna Dark at some point. She’s the closest thing to James Bond we can get. Perfect Dark was the spiritual successor to GoldenEye. I’m curious If the no non-game origin rule also applies to music. It would be cool to get some GoldenEye songs along with Joanna if she ever makes it.

I would assume it does apply or at least it can cause issues because it would be held by different rights holders.

If that's what got Checker Knights removed from the Kirby songlist after Brawl, then I can't imagine how rough it'd be for non-game-related soundtracks lol

 

[Perkilator]

If Monster Hunter ever gets into Smash, which weapon do you think they would use? The Great Sword?

I'm still enamored by this concept that has the Monster Hunter utilize mini-movesets with multiple weapons.

Monster Hunter X Smash Bros!

I recreated SSBU with @TuxedWhale in Unreal Engine and put in the Hunter. I did the programming, design, animation (including copying SSBU animations), and about half the VFX. It was a lot of work, but it was fun! pic.twitter.com/ViAn3wY1R2

— Martin (@TuxedoPato) February 5, 2024

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I've been thinking about an Ogerpon moveset, and I've ran into a bit of a snag. I'm obviously using the masks as her main gimmick, and I'm interpreting them as akin to Shulk's monado arts (with the key difference being they last indefinitely, but are less powerful to compensate). Obviously the Hearthflame mask is going to make Ogerpon more of a glass cannon, and the Cornerstone mask makes her bulkier, but the last two are giving me a bit of a headache.

In Scarlet and Violet, the Teal Mask seems to be associated with speed, while the Wellspring mask doesn't seem to have a clear stat association. But at the same time, the Teal Mask is Ogerpon's default form, it would feel wrong making it not be the baseline in Smash. I'm planning on swapping the two - making Wellspring the faster form, while Teal Mask is the basic boring form. Would anyone complain about this?

The masks are associated with different stats? I thought Ogerpon had the same stats in each form.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

The masks are associated with different stats? I thought Ogerpon had the same stats in each form.

When Ogerpon Teras with the masks, it increases a specific stat depending on the Mask because of its Ability while Tera'd, Embody Aspect. Teal Mask boosts Speed, Hearthflame boosts Attack, Wellspring boosts Sp. Def, and Cornerstone boosts Defense.

The only thing that changes in normal gameplay with the masks is Ogerpon's type; pure Grass with Teal, Hearthflame is Grass/Fire, Cornerstone is Grass/Rock, and Wellspring is Grass/Water. Otherwise they have different abilities, Defiant, Mold Breaker, Sturdy, and Water Absorb respectively. They do have the same stats though.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I say Smash should add Joanna Dark at some point. She’s the closest thing to James Bond we can get. Perfect Dark was the spiritual successor to GoldenEye. I’m curious If the no non-game origin rule also applies to music. It would be cool to get some GoldenEye songs along with Joanna if she ever makes it.

It doesn't. We have Advent Children music in Ultimate. However, it does apply to music from non-video game franchises, so GoldenEye stuff still isn't allowed.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

It doesn't. We have Advent Children music in Ultimate. However, it does apply to music from non-video game franchises, so GoldenEye stuff still isn't allowed.

I'll be honest, when I made my comment earlier, I completely forgot Advent Children music was in Smash lmao

That just makes me annoyed that Checker Knights isn't in Smash anymore now!

 

[ninjahmos]

I'm still enamored by this concept that has the Monster Hunter utilize mini-movesets with multiple weapons.

Monster Hunter X Smash Bros!

I recreated SSBU with @TuxedWhale in Unreal Engine and put in the Hunter. I did the programming, design, animation (including copying SSBU animations), and about half the VFX. It was a lot of work, but it was fun! pic.twitter.com/ViAn3wY1R2

— Martin (@TuxedoPato) February 5, 2024

Wow, this looks pretty cool! I'd definitely love to see what they'd be able to do with the Hunter if they ever get in.

 

[MBRedboy31]

If Monster Hunter ever gets into Smash, which weapon do you think they would use? The Great Sword?

MvCi’s Monster Hunter uses the Great Sword as her main weapon, but also uses the Dual Blades for faster close range attacks and the Bow for space-controlling projectiles (such as making arrows rain down from the sky.) Seems like a good way to let MH play at multiple ranges.

 

[SharkLord]

If Monster Hunter ever gets into Smash, which weapon do you think they would use? The Great Sword?

Great Sword in some way is the only guarantee to me; That's like, the Monster Hunter weapon, used in all the promo material. After that, I see two ways of handling the other weapons. The first is what I call the "minimalist" approach of just hefting around a Greatsword, interspersed with various items like the Slinger, Traps and Shock Traps, Barrel Bombs, Flash Bombs, Whetstones and possibly the buff juices in some way. Not as flashy, but pretty accurate to the games. The second is a "maximalist" approach of juggling multiple weapons, like in MvCI. Personally, I think it looks awkward when you're just ping-ponging between different weapons for your normals, especially with big clunky weapons like in MH, but I do quite like the fan moveset posted above

Monster Hunter X Smash Bros!

I recreated SSBU with @TuxedWhale in Unreal Engine and put in the Hunter. I did the programming, design, animation (including copying SSBU animations), and about half the VFX. It was a lot of work, but it was fun! pic.twitter.com/ViAn3wY1R2

— Martin (@TuxedoPato) February 5, 2024

The specials being different weapons with limited movesets helps strike a nice balance of giving everything room to breathe without making the moveset too overloaded. With this formula, I'd personally have the Sword and Shield as the "main" moveset; The SnS is versatile, technical, can use items without sheathing, and until Rise was the first weapon you got. The neutral special would be a Bowgun to cover Monster Hunter's big mechanical weapons, the side special stays the Lance for its massive shield and charge attack, and the down special would be the Great Sword, which already has a fairly limited moveset in the actual games and works well as a meaty charge attack.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

When Ogerpon Teras with the masks, it increases a specific stat depending on the Mask because of its Ability while Tera'd, Embody Aspect. Teal Mask boosts Speed, Hearthflame boosts Attack, Wellspring boosts Sp. Def, and Cornerstone boosts Defense.

The only thing that changes in normal gameplay with the masks is Ogerpon's type; pure Grass with Teal, Hearthflame is Grass/Fire, Cornerstone is Grass/Rock, and Wellspring is Grass/Water. Otherwise they have different abilities, Defiant, Mold Breaker, Sturdy, and Water Absorb respectively. They do have the same stats though.

Ah, that makes sense then.

PeridotGX Well I could see Sakurai swapping Teal and Wellspring, but I personally wouldn't. Maybe since Wellspring boosts Special Defense, you could make it heavier, but not as heavy as Cornerstone, and with a passive effect that gives it some resistance to energy projectiles?

 

[Gengar84]

I mean, I wouldn't here. Cause I wouldn't give a **** about a game that could just have anyone. See: Fortnite.

That’s totally fair, but let me ask you a related question: Do you play Soul Calibur, Tekken, Mortal Kombat, or King of Fighters? All of them have had guest characters originating from outside gaming. Street Fighter VI has content from non game IP like the TMNT and Spy x Family.

 

[ninjahmos]

How I think Smash fans would feel if we got any "non-video game" characters in Smash:

"OK…that is IT! This is the final STRAW! I've had it with all you frickin' fricks and your frickin' Smash fantasies! You guys are the ones that ruined Super Smash Bros. for everyone! Can't you see that?! What the frick are you guys doing?! Asking for all these frickin' non-video game characters! Why do we need Goku? Why do we need SpongeBob? Why do we need Shrek? Why do we need Iron Man? Why do we need all those characters?!"

 

[Gengar84]

How I think Smash fans would feel if we got any "non-video game" characters in Smash:

"OK…that is IT! This is the final STRAW! I've had it with all you frickin' fricks and your frickin' Smash fantasies! You guys are the ones that ruined Super Smash Bros. for everyone! Can't you see that?! What the frick are you guys doing?! Asking for all these frickin' non-video game characters! Why do we need Goku? Why do we need SpongeBob? Why do we need Shrek? Why do we need Iron Man? Why do we need all those characters?!"

I think it’s totally valid to want to keep the focus on just video game characters. It gives the games a little stronger sense of cohesion and gives some smaller game only characters and franchises a chance. If you think that, it makes sense you’d also not want to play other fighting games that have non game originating guests. Nintendo’s already crossed over with Hello Kitty, Baby Metal, and Mercedes in their own IP so I don’t see what makes Smash so special compared to those games.

I just want to be clear I’m not really advocating with either direction. As long as Smash has cool characters I like and I enjoy the gameplay, I’ll keep playing, whether or not we ever get non game characters.

 

[Zerp]

I've been thinking about an Ogerpon moveset, and I've ran into a bit of a snag. I'm obviously using the masks as her main gimmick, and I'm interpreting them as akin to Shulk's monado arts (with the key difference being they last indefinitely, but are less powerful to compensate). Obviously the Hearthflame mask is going to make Ogerpon more of a glass cannon, and the Cornerstone mask makes her bulkier, but the last two are giving me a bit of a headache.

In Scarlet and Violet, the Teal Mask seems to be associated with speed, while the Wellspring mask doesn't seem to have a clear stat association. But at the same time, the Teal Mask is Ogerpon's default form, it would feel wrong making it not be the baseline in Smash. I'm planning on swapping the two - making Wellspring the faster form, while Teal Mask is the basic boring form. Would anyone complain about this?

I doubt there'd be much anger but the first thought I had would to be make Wellspring the one that's good for recovery. Doesn't really need a clear stat it's better at to translate over to that kind of role.

 

[Guynamednelson]

That’s totally fair, but let me ask you a related question: Do you play Soul Calibur, Tekken, Mortal Kombat, or King of Fighters? All of them have had guest characters originating from outside gaming. Street Fighter VI has content from non game IP like the TMNT and Spy x Family.

Don't make me remind you again about the scope creep those games' fandoms DON'T suffer from, unlike Smash.

 

[Gengar84]

Don't make me remind you again about the scope creep those games' fandoms DON'T suffer from, unlike Smash.

I’m not really here to argue. Like I said, I’m cool either way. It’s good that we can have a difference of opinion and I respect people that don’t want anything to do with it. There is a good case to be made for keeping the theme we currently have without expanding even further. I’m just saying I’d still enjoy the game and I’d still get excited for characters I like personally.

 

[Louie G.]

My sentiment about fourth parties is that I’d still play the game, but speculation would no longer be any fun. That’s a can of worms that’s virtually impossible to control once it’s opened. The gates have opened substantially over the last two Smash games but I feel like there’s still some sense of order about it - and frankly I already feel exhausted having to talk on this many third party characters so slap on any serious discussion about movie or anime characters and we’ve just lost our grip.

Had James Bond been added in Melee, I can’t say how different things would be. Perhaps that one would be easier to handwave away as an exception because of how specific and important Goldeneye was. On the other hand the very fact that there would be a non-game character in Smash at all would certainly have come to a tipping point at one stage or another. Talk of Goku and whatnot would have ever so slightly more validation to push the narrative.

 

[Opossum]

I've been thinking about an Ogerpon moveset, and I've ran into a bit of a snag. I'm obviously using the masks as her main gimmick, and I'm interpreting them as akin to Shulk's monado arts (with the key difference being they last indefinitely, but are less powerful to compensate). Obviously the Hearthflame mask is going to make Ogerpon more of a glass cannon, and the Cornerstone mask makes her bulkier, but the last two are giving me a bit of a headache.

In Scarlet and Violet, the Teal Mask seems to be associated with speed, while the Wellspring mask doesn't seem to have a clear stat association. But at the same time, the Teal Mask is Ogerpon's default form, it would feel wrong making it not be the baseline in Smash. I'm planning on swapping the two - making Wellspring the faster form, while Teal Mask is the basic boring form. Would anyone complain about this?

I think you could probably make it so Wellspring takes less damage and knockback from projectiles, while Cornerstone takes less damage and knockback from melee attacks. That way Ogerpon has ways of dealing with both zoners and melee combatants, but has to commit to one of the two.

 

[SharkLord]

I think you could probably make it so Wellspring takes less damage and knockback from projectiles, while Cornerstone takes less damage and knockback from melee attacks. That way Ogerpon has ways of dealing with both zoners and melee combatants, but has to commit to one of the two.

Ogerpon when she has to fight the Belmonts (They can zone with melee and projectiles simultaneously)

 

[Idon]

That’s totally fair, but let me ask you a related question: Do you play Soul Calibur, Tekken, Mortal Kombat, or King of Fighters? All of them have had guest characters originating from outside gaming. Street Fighter VI has content from non game IP like the TMNT and Spy x Family.

And all of them were contentious additions that never stay around for long.

SF6 at the very least has its collabs as things you can never actually see in the real game and is effectively just costumes for your lobby avatars.

 

[Gengar84]

And all of them were contentious additions that never stay around for long.

SF6 at the very least has its collabs as things you can never actually see in the real game and is effectively just costumes for your lobby avatars.

Was Spawn really a contentious addition in Soul Calibur 2? I know he didn’t generate the same level of hype as Link did on the GameCube version but I thought it was still pretty cool. I was a big fan of the Spawn action figures at the time.

 

[BuckleyTim]

I'm a simple man. I come to the video game crossover to discuss video games. Not anime characters, not movie characters, just video games. Wacky guest characters in other fighting games are fine by me to a point, but in the game that's obstensibly about celebrating video games I'm not here to talk about star wars/ dragon ball/ hello Kitty/ etc. because the conversation is always going to shift away from what they are for videogames to what they are as a general IP. If we just do Big Disney/Toei brand #38 we completely break the illusions that Smash has more "prestige" than something like Fortnite or even Multiversus. I'm not saying Smash doesn't just exist to sell you gaming brands, but at least there's a focus there.

 

[Oracle Link]

How I think Smash fans would feel if we got any "non-video game" characters in Smash:

"OK…that is IT! This is the final STRAW! I've had it with all you frickin' fricks and your frickin' Smash fantasies! You guys are the ones that ruined Super Smash Bros. for everyone! Can't you see that?! What the frick are you guys doing?! Asking for all these frickin' non-video game characters! Why do we need Goku? Why do we need SpongeBob? Why do we need Shrek? Why do we need Iron Man? Why do we need all those characters?!"

Eventho i love goku i agree! Again i think VSM should count as a game character as the choice of medium was out of my control!
But yeah other than the "a game wasnt possible" Case every Franchise starting in another medium or Characters designed for non game adaptation shouldnt be playable probably!

 

[Gengar84]

So how does anyone feel about visual novel characters like Okabe from Steins;Gate’s eligibility for Smash? Does that count enough as a game to qualify or should it be limited to more traditional games?

 

[Opossum]

Eventho i love goku i agree! Again i think VSM should count as a game character as the choice of medium was out of my control!
But yeah other than the "a game wasnt possible" Case every Franchise starting in another medium or Characters designed for non game adaptation shouldnt be playable probably!

I mean...the medium was absolutely, 100% in your control, by definition. He doesn't arbitrarily count as a video game character just because you opted to make a web comic instead due to lack of coding skills. That just means you made a web comic character.

 

[fogbadge]

So how does anyone feel about visual novel characters like Okabe from Steins;Gate’s eligibility for Smash? Does that count enough as a game to qualify or should it be limited to more traditional games?

well I support ayumi and taro from FDC. and some say Ace Attorney counts as one and everyone agrees nick is eligible