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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

dream1ng

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If this turns out to be true, I'd like to point out that Sony's biggest success this year was a family-friendly platformer that celebrated the company's history. I doubt that's related in any way, but the implication that they would respond by buying out a massive studio and taking their IPs doesn't sit well with me...
I mean I'm not for consolidation like this, but tbf this isn't like Concord where they're gambling on some new property. Dark Souls and Elden Ring are both huge names, and they already have a history with From via Demons Souls and Bloodborne.

Also if Astro Bot is their biggest success this year... that's not great. I mean it's good the IP is doing well, it's good they found success doing something other than massive cinematic narrative games, but apparently it's at ~1.5 mil. Which is perfectly decent... but for their biggest success of the year? Idk.

I don’t think this completely kills their chances. Who would have expected Nintendo to partner with Microsoft for Banjo and Steve before Smash Ultimate? Lego Horizon is on the Switch so it looks like Sony isn’t totally opposed to working with Nintendo either.
No it doesn't completely kill their chances but... Sony and Nintendo vs Microsoft and Nintendo are very different relationships. MS is the odd one out here.

I mean we just got a Banjo game, and Minecraft will probably continue to be ubiquitous. If a buyout doesn't impede Kadokawa games coming to Nintendo platforms that would be an auspicious sign, but... I guess we have to cross that bridge when and if we get there.

Elden Ring, sure. Dark Souls, not so much cause Namco owns Dark Souls still compared to Elden Ring.
Namco owns part of the IP, From owns the other. Like how a lot of Nintendo IP are co-owned between publisher and developer. And if Sony owns From, they can block it from showing up where they don't want it to.

 
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Guynamednelson

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Pokemon is an inherently colorful, silly series
And that's why I want my Pokemon newcomers to lean more into :ultpikachu::ultjigglypuff::ultpichu::ultsquirtle::ultivysaur: myself.

And no, I can't just play as them because most of you want all of them except Pikachu gone. So I can only play as them for now unless by some miracle we do get everyone back for the next game or continued DLC for Ultimate.
 

Noipoi

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And that's why I want my Pokemon newcomers to lean more into :ultpikachu::ultjigglypuff::ultpichu::ultsquirtle::ultivysaur: myself.

And no, I can't just play as them because most of you want all of them except Pikachu gone. So I can only play as them for now unless by some miracle we do get everyone back for the next game or continued DLC for Ultimate.
Honestly out of this line up I think only Pichu goes.
 

TheFirstPoppyBro

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And that's why I want my Pokemon newcomers to lean more into :ultpikachu::ultjigglypuff::ultpichu::ultsquirtle::ultivysaur: myself.

And no, I can't just play as them because most of you want all of them except Pikachu gone. So I can only play as them for now unless by some miracle we do get everyone back for the next game or continued DLC for Ultimate.
I mean Pikachu is definitely coming back, Jigglypuff is very likely to (it's beat out Mewtwo of all Pokemon twice before and has the perfect attendee card, it just usually starts development later because it's easier to make), and imo since Trainer is the original intention of the character I see no reason why the full package wouldn't come back when there are no limitations to work around with transformations, especially when Charizard is so likely to return.

Pichu will probably be gone because until Ultimate it had vanished from the series for 17 years, and outside of the Everyone Is Here scenario, I just don't realistically think it will even though I love Pichu.
 

Guynamednelson

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outside of the Everyone Is Here scenario, I just don't realistically think it will even though I love Pichu.
100% agree.

When it was leaked that Olimar and Bowser Jr. were getting alts that turned them into different characters I actually hoped Pichu would be a Pikachu alt because it'd at least still be playable in some form. One where you at least can't complain about it hurting itself. But since Sakurai thought Dr. Mario shouldn't be a costume because he thought of gameplay changes for the doctor in 2001, that wasn't gonna happen.

Oh, and Raichu and at least one other Pikaclone as costumes for it too.
 
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TheFirstPoppyBro

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100% agree.

When it was leaked that Olimar and Bowser Jr. were getting alts that turned them into different characters I actually hoped Pichu would be a Pikachu alt because it'd at least still be playable in some form. One where you at least can't complain about it hurting itself. But since Sakurai thought Dr. Mario shouldn't be a costume because he thought of gameplay changes for the doctor in 2001, that wasn't gonna happen.

Oh, and Raichu and at least one other Pikaclone as costumes for it too.
I did appreciate at least that in Brawl and Smash 4, Pikachu at least had an alternate costume with Pichu's goggles. That was my favorite Pichu costume in Melee, so I felt like it was a nice little callback.
 

Guynamednelson

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I did appreciate at least that in Brawl and Smash 4, Pikachu at least had an alternate costume with Pichu's goggles. That was my favorite Pichu costume in Melee, so I felt like it was a nice little callback.
Agreed, but I dropped it for the Team Aqua bandana

RIP green backpack though...or any green Pichu alt for that matter.
 

SPEN18

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Even with that scenario, Sakurai also says like two sentences later "I wanted to make a pro wrestler type character at least once!" So again, it doesn't matter because Incineroar's wrestling archet.ype appealed to Sakurai more. Which means it's even less about popularity with Incin and more just Sakurai had an idea he wanted to do, and picked Incin to fulfill that idea, meaning Sakurai picked Incineroar EXCLUSIVELY for his unique playstyle, which you bemoan people for even bringing up.
And Incineroar proponents cling desperately to that one line, because it's basically the only thing he has going for him. He's a wrestler. Sakurai picked him for no apparent reason other than he filled a cookie-cutter archetype that Sakurai wanted. Which is within his rights to do because he's the director, and that's fine, I just disagree with that as being the best way to go about it, and even if I had no qualms about that methodology for choosing, I still think the other gen 7 choices would have been both more interesting archetypes to fill and better received, esp. long-term. So on all counts, I disagree with the choice, both using the information Sakurai had available when making the choice and using the information we have now.

I have no idea what this "thought-policing" is even referring to
Hardly anybody was asking for Incineroar, relative to the amount of asks for the other gen 7 mons, and hardly anybody would be asking for him now if he weren't in. But apparently, since he got in, we're all just supposed to pretend that he was the best choice all along even though pretty much nobody thought that before his addition. And again, anytime you criticize the choice you just get slapped with the same old "he's a wrestler" one-liner as if that outweighs all the other factors, including (but not limited to) popularity, marketability, and, yes, the unique qualities of the other options. Apparently, we're all supposed to just give in and agree that it was a good choice. It says something that no one can say anything to support Incineroar beyond "he's a wrestler," and variants thereof.

The comparison with Robin comes because we had a lesser-speculated choice from the same game get chosen over the more-expected choice, both with Robin and with Incineroar. When Robin was added, it was indeed a pretty controversial move at that time, and there was a lot of outcry for giving "justice" to Chrom, which surely contributed to his Ballot performance and eventual addition as an Echo.


Of course the line between objective and subjective will always be blurry. And for some, it won't matter; as long as the result maintains the usual level of quality that Smash holds itself to, and/or is a character they like or care about, they'll be fine with whoever. And that's totally fine for whoever's boat it floats. But if we're going to go anywhere beyond just "ok Sakurai just pick whoever you want that you think will be fun" (or "ok Sakurai just pick whoever I personally want") then the other factors like sales, popularity, cultural impact, marketing and promotion, role or plot importance, and etc. all come into the equation. And there just don't seem to be compelling arguments along any of those lines in favor of Incineroar beyond that simple "he's fun and I like him" angle, which again is fine for those who are content with it, but personally I don't think there's any good reason to include Incineroar over any number of other Pokemon options who I think would be better. And again, nobody can claim to be perfectly objective about it, but even trying to distance myself as much as possible from my personal feelings towards the character, in this case I fail to see significant merit.
 

Noipoi

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And Incineroar proponents cling desperately to that one line, because it's basically the only thing he has going for him. He's a wrestler. Sakurai picked him for no apparent reason other than he filled a cookie-cutter archetype that Sakurai wanted. Which is within his rights to do because he's the director, and that's fine, I just disagree with that as being the best way to go about it, and even if I had no qualms about that methodology for choosing, I still think the other gen 7 choices would have been both more interesting archetypes to fill and better received, esp. long-term. So on all counts, I disagree with the choice, both using the information Sakurai had available when making the choice and using the information we have now.



Hardly anybody was asking for Incineroar, relative to the amount of asks for the other gen 7 mons, and hardly anybody would be asking for him now if he weren't in. But apparently, since he got in, we're all just supposed to pretend that he was the best choice all along even though pretty much nobody thought that before his addition. And again, anytime you criticize the choice you just get slapped with the same old "he's a wrestler" one-liner as if that outweighs all the other factors, including (but not limited to) popularity, marketability, and, yes, the unique qualities of the other options. Apparently, we're all supposed to just give in and agree that it was a good choice. It says something that no one can say anything to support Incineroar beyond "he's a wrestler," and variants thereof.

The comparison with Robin comes because we had a lesser-speculated choice from the same game get chosen over the more-expected choice, both with Robin and with Incineroar. When Robin was added, it was indeed a pretty controversial move at that time, and there was a lot of outcry for giving "justice" to Chrom, which surely contributed to his Ballot performance and eventual addition as an Echo.


Of course the line between objective and subjective will always be blurry. And for some, it won't matter; as long as the result maintains the usual level of quality that Smash holds itself to, and/or is a character they like or care about, they'll be fine with whoever. And that's totally fine for whoever's boat it floats. But if we're going to go anywhere beyond just "ok Sakurai just pick whoever you want that you think will be fun" (or "ok Sakurai just pick whoever I personally want") then the other factors like sales, popularity, cultural impact, marketing and promotion, role or plot importance, and etc. all come into the equation. And there just don't seem to be compelling arguments along any of those lines in favor of Incineroar beyond that simple "he's fun and I like him" angle, which again is fine for those who are content with it, but personally I don't think there's any good reason to include Incineroar over any number of other Pokemon options who I think would be better. And again, nobody can claim to be perfectly objective about it, but even trying to distance myself as much as possible from my personal feelings towards the character, in this case I fail to see significant merit.
A lot of people didn’t like the idea of Incineroar at first, but once they saw the implementation they came around. That’s not changing the narrative that’s people changing their minds, man.

And I’m not sure where you’re seeing people saying nobody’s allowed to dislike Incineroar or question his inclusion. Quite frankly that’s kinda ridiculous.
 

SPEN18

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A lot of people didn’t like the idea of Incineroar at first, but once they saw the implementation they came around. That’s not changing the narrative that’s people changing their minds, man.

And I’m not sure where you’re seeing people saying nobody’s allowed to dislike Incineroar or question his inclusion.
Yeah of course people are allowed to change their minds once they see the implementation but acting like the implementation resolves all the other issues with the choice I don't agree with. I question how much of it is genuine, because obviously there's always going to be a flocking towards the "winning team." In that respect I think it's useful to look at the reception prior to his reveal, and again the fact that his popularity outside Smash is quite unimpressive speaks to him not being very innately popular. Every Smash veteran has a devoted following within the Smash fandom, but the fact that we haven't seen Incineroar's spill over into a greater significance outside of Smash is one point against him.

Whenever a character gets added, we always see a dissipation of their critics; and moreover, whenever someone argues against a veteran there is always a crowd flocking to their defense. It's natural and expected phenomena, as is people changing their minds on Incineroar once added.
I don't literally think people are saying nobody's allowed to dislike Incineroar (sorry if that was not clear), just lamenting that the aforementioned phenomena give that apparent effect, i.e. make it difficult to argue the dissenting opinion. Especially when there's been very little in actual substantive argument in favor of him beyond personal affinity for him or his moveset.
 

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Yeah of course people are allowed to change their minds once they see the implementation but acting like the implementation resolves all the other issues with the choice I don't agree with. I question how much of it is genuine, because obviously there's always going to be a flocking towards the "winning team." In that respect I think it's useful to look at the reception prior to his reveal, and again the fact that his popularity outside Smash is quite unimpressive speaks to him not being very innately popular. Every Smash veteran has a devoted following within the Smash fandom, but the fact that we haven't seen Incineroar's spill over into a greater significance outside of Smash is one point against him.

Whenever a character gets added, we always see a dissipation of their critics; and moreover, whenever someone argues against a veteran there is always a crowd flocking to their defense. It's natural and expected phenomena, as is people changing their minds on Incineroar once added.
I don't literally think people are saying nobody's allowed to dislike Incineroar (sorry if that was not clear), just lamenting that the aforementioned phenomena give that apparent effect, i.e. make it difficult to argue the dissenting opinion. Especially when there's been very little in actual substantive argument in favor of him beyond personal affinity for him or his moveset.
I mean, what can we count as objective here anyways?

Incineroar was included for two specific reasons. His ability to advertise a new Pokemon game, and to give a fun moveset. He successfully fulfilled both criteria.

Sure, he isn't the most popular Pokemon out there. Arguably he's not the most popular Gen VII Pokemon out there. But those aren't the only objective criteria out there. You're trying to say his inclusion isn't worthwhile because he's not ticking certain boxes. But why are those boxes even required to be ticked? I'm sure you wouldn't give Shulk and Mario the same rubric. I'd argue that R.O.B, Bowser, Roy and Bayonetta all have warranted inclusions, but all for very different reasons. An inclusion being worthwhile can't really be objective.

So I have to turn the table back at you. Why is his moveset being widely considered super fun, not an objective point in his favor? Because other characters do that too? Yeah, but you have no guarantee that Mimikyu, Decidueye or whoever would have a well beloved moveset.

All that aside, Incineroar isn't Corrin. He's not that controversial in the Pokemon fandom anymore. People just generally like him nowadays (if they don't hate him for meta reasons). The hatred has always been overblown as well. So arguing he isn't the most popular Pokemon out there isn't a great point when he's still considered iconic and marketable. So marketable, that people posted two recent ads featuring him that you largely brushed aside. They aren't giving Toxapex, Landorus or Gholdengo these ads, even if they're important to the competitive scene. Rillaboom never got this treatment and it's everywhere.

I'm not saying you have to like Incineroar. I'm just arguing a few points. But I don't think anyone has silenced anyone here.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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Yeah of course people are allowed to change their minds once they see the implementation but acting like the implementation resolves all the other issues with the choice I don't agree with.
Is that something people are arguing? I've seen people talking about how much they like Incineroar's Smash implementation, but they weren't really a part of roster discussion beyond stating their hopes that it comes back. I've seen people state that its character archetype (in multiple senses of the term) could be a reason why they'd keep it around, and I think that's a valid angle to look at given how one of the goals is a diversity of character archetypes. The only other thing is its prominence in the VGC, which shows that it does have at least some staying power outside of Smash. It might not be super amazing in the context of Pokémon where there's a virtual sea of influential characters, but it is something notable about it, and arguing that isn't really a denouncement of its issues.

Every Smash veteran has a devoted following within the Smash fandom, but the fact that we haven't seen Incineroar's spill over into a greater significance outside of Smash is one point against him.
This can be kind of tricky because Smash has to cater to so many different demographics that issues like this can sometimes be sidestepped. For example, Roy made it in as DLC despite Fire Emblem fans very much disliking him at the time; He was added for the Smash fans.

Ultimately, I think this is also something we have to keep in mind. Smash fans love their veterans, and very few of them have failed to leave their mark on the fanbase. For that reason, we're probably going to keep around a handful of oddball picks like Incineroar, Wii Fit Trainer, or Piranha Plant...not necessarily those three, but a couple like them anyway.
 

Louie G.

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I think saying Incineroar is Smash's only true grappler-by-design is pretty close to being objective, since characters like Bowser and DK are kind of weird hybrids, so acknowledging the distinct role a character plays on the roster is about as good a reason as any to justify them continuing to be here. It's cool if anyone disagrees with the choice itself, but I think this is doing a disservice to a point that's a little stronger than "I like the moveset :)".

Like, I'd defend Sheik in a similar way. I think a lot of people may also see Sheik on shaky ground. But they are one of the most pinpointed rushdown characters on the roster, with many creative liberties that don't necessarily HAVE to belong to this character, but they do. Sure, we can say Incineroar got a cookie cutter grappler moveset. But whether that's true or not, the fact of the matter is that it's his - just as it would be kind of weird to transplant Sheik's moveset over to Impa (despite the obsession people have toward doing this), if Smash wanted to have a pure grappler on the roster they may as well just maintain the one they have. That's my point, at least.

I see where SPEN is coming from overall and I'm not trying to say they're wrong. But I think there's a fundamental flaw in peddling all of these external elements as objective - your marketability, relevance, whatnot - and not giving very much credibility to unique gameplay roles or internal Smash popularity and the roles those may play in determining who comes back. If everyone loves this moveset so much, and Incineroar is playing like no other character is playing, then idk... sounds like a character worth keeping.

Obviously all these things need to be weighed out, I'm not saying the other stuff doesn't matter, but it's far from the only stuff that does. Maybe in a competitive lineup like Pokemon it makes sense to consider all the external stuff to be gospel, but we have kept Jigglypuff around all this time anyway.
 
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SPEN18

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I mean, what can we count as objective here anyways?

Incineroar was included for two specific reasons. His ability to advertise a new Pokemon game, and to give a fun moveset. He successfully fulfilled both criteria.

Sure, he isn't the most popular Pokemon out there. Arguably he's not the most popular Gen VII Pokemon out there. But those aren't the only objective criteria out there. You're trying to say his inclusion isn't worthwhile because he's not ticking certain boxes. But why are those boxes even required to be ticked? I'm sure you wouldn't give Shulk and Mario the same rubric. I'd argue that R.O.B, Bowser, Roy and Bayonetta all have warranted inclusions, but all for very different reasons. An inclusion being worthwhile can't really be objective.

So I have to turn the table back at you. Why is his moveset being widely considered super fun, not an objective point in his favor? Because other characters do that too? Yeah, but you have no guarantee that Mimikyu, Decidueye or whoever would have a well beloved moveset.

All that aside, Incineroar isn't Corrin. He's not that controversial in the Pokemon fandom anymore. People just generally like him nowadays (if they don't hate him for meta reasons). The hatred has always been overblown as well. So arguing he isn't the most popular Pokemon out there isn't a great point when he's still considered iconic and marketable. So marketable, that people posted two recent ads featuring him that you largely brushed aside. They aren't giving Toxapex, Landorus or Gholdengo these ads, even if they're important to the competitive scene. Rillaboom never got this treatment and it's everywhere.

I'm not saying you have to like Incineroar. I'm just arguing a few points. But I don't think anyone has silenced anyone here.
As I said, the line will always be blurry when it comes to what's objective, but we're doing our best. I think both sides agree on the reasons for Incineroar's addition being that he advertised the newest Pokemon generation and had a moveset Sakurai thought would be fun and/or fill an archetype he wanted. I just fundamentally disagree with those two things as being enough, esp. when there were/are other options who do both just as well or better, and who also were/are more popular / better received by fans, got/get even more marketing than Incineroar, and even (and this is the more subjective part than the former) have even more interesting things they could do in the moveset than a fire wrestler. Even if Sakurai liked the wrestler idea, I don't think that's good enough to outweigh other factors telling me that another choice would be better.

On the moveset, while there's no guarantee the fans would've liked a particular iteration of say Mimikyu or Decidueye as much, I think it's pretty difficult to argue there isn't a fun moveset possible within those options. So, if it were the case that say Mimikyu got implemented and its moveset wasn't popular, that would be most likely an issue in execution and not an issue with the choice of Mimikyu itself. Just like how many people complain that they don't like Lucario's implementation, but still almost universally agree that Lucario is worth having and should be fixed up if anything rather than straight cut.

If Incineroar's moveset is widely viewed positively, that would indeed be a point in his favor. But there are many movesets in the game viewed just as positively, and when it comes to moveset criticisms, those usually don't result in people calling for an outright cut, just a revamp or adjustment. The number of characters and archetypes currently in the game also lessens the necessity of each, i.e. Smash could easily survive with a character performing X other archetype in place of Incineroar doing his wrestling thing; each character having a unique niche to fill is important but that unique archetype specifically needing to be wrestling is not. So again, it's a point in his favor but when it comes to character selection, it's kind of a backseat concern overall because it's a point about equally in favor of the majority of existing characters and a large number of potential characters.

On his popularity, it's more than just saying he's not the most popular. He's not particularly close to the top options. The biggest dataset we have on that is the PotY poll where his performance is not too bad but pretty underwhelming when you consider how competitive it is to be considered for a very limited number of Smash slots. This is consistent with any number of other polls one could dig up; obviously the majority of polls are going to be very limited in what you can draw from them because of small sample sizes and limited information on the methodology, but I've literally never found a poll where he's playing with the big boys. Even within his own generation it is pretty universal that Mimikyu, Rowlett, Decidueye are more popular, with others like Lycanroc also having a case to be ahead of the fire cat.

One other thing on ads: Pokemon is a different beast when it comes to promotion. Same-franchise competition is IMO a big factor to consider, and while a lot of franchises can only dream of having an event as big as VGC, in the grand scheme of Pokemon-specific promotion there are very many other mons getting as much or more compared to Incineroar. I don't think anyone would claim Incineroar is a marketing behemoth. When he's failing in most categories in comparison to his most ostensibly direct competition, such as same-gen mons or fire-type mons or starters, it doesn't exactly make his selection shine.
 

SPEN18

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Is that something people are arguing? I've seen people talking about how much they like Incineroar's Smash implementation, but they weren't really a part of roster discussion beyond stating their hopes that it comes back.
Perhaps not explicitly, but continuing to lean exclusively into that angle without disputing any other issues that have been raised is not likely going to be as effective or convincing IMO.

For example, Roy made it in as DLC despite Fire Emblem fans very much disliking him at the time; He was added for the Smash fans.
Now don't get me started on Roy lol. I actually disagreed with bringing Roy back in Smash 4 as well...
Though my memory doesn't tell me the FE fans disliked him.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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Grapplers for Smash Bros? How about a literal Metal Grappler for Smash Bros? That also uses guns and bombs? And gets bonus points for being a robot bear with a visor and a mohawk?

Yes, I'm still hoping Custom Robo comes back with a new game at some point.
sees picture
"Oh look it's Jack."

reads bottom
"I have been bamboozled."

reads top
"Oh that was the joke..."
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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Now don't get me started on Roy lol. I actually disagreed with bringing Roy back in Smash 4 as well...
Though my memory doesn't tell me the FE fans disliked him.
From my anecdotal experience, everything I had heard from the Fire Emblem community about how Roy was the worst lord in the series, mainly citing how terrible he is as a unit.

Nowadays it appears that every single Fire Emblem character in Super Smash Bros. is quite popular within the Fire Emblem community.
 

Ivander

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sees picture
"Oh look it's Jack."

reads bottom
"I have been bamboozled."

reads top
"Oh that was the joke..."
It does look alot like Jack from Tekken, doesn't it? :surprised: Maybe a bit of inspiration? I mean, Metal Bear did come out in the first Custom Robo game in 1999, 5 yaers after Tekken.

Actually believe it or not, that's the Gamecube version of Metal Bear. The N64 version of Metal Bear was human designed and actually looks more like Jack.
Metal_Bear_V2.png

And in the GBA game, it would get an upgraded version called "Neo Metal Bear", which is a version of it in power armor.
Neo_Metal_Bear_Render.png


But that said, yep, wasn't Jack, just Metal Bear from Custom Robo who's class is called "Metal Grappler." And after the Gamecube version, most Metal Grapplers are animal-based, like Metal Ape, Metal Ox, Crazy Baboon, etc.
From my anecdotal experience, everything I had heard from the Fire Emblem community about how Roy was the worst lord in the series, mainly citing how terrible he is as a unit.
I think the main issue with Roy is that he cannot promote for most of the game until he gets his main weapon, the Sword of Seals, and then when he finally gets his promotion and weapon, he becomes incredibly powerful and capable of dealing with most enemies.
 
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SPEN18

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From my anecdotal experience, everything I had heard from the Fire Emblem community about how Roy was the worst lord in the series, mainly citing how terrible he is as a unit.

Nowadays it appears that every single Fire Emblem character in Super Smash Bros. is quite popular within the Fire Emblem community.
At high levels of play, Roy is a big force-deployed liability and is a low-tier combat unit. So he gets a bad rap for that aspect in particular in more hardcore circles. But as far as I know people pretty much like him as a character, and he is very popular.
As far as being a bad combat unit goes, (1) casuals playing the normal difficulty probably won't notice and (2) this is just a product of how classic FE balanced its main characters. Since the main character dying was the principal game over condition in classic FE, the devs were purposely conservative with their stats in order to ensure that players would have a challenge and not be able to easily steamroll the game with a slightly overlevelled main lord. A lot of the popular characters fall victim to this balancing quirk, even Marth and Lyn; but it's never put a damper on their popularities and none of them are so bad that casuals playing easier difficulties really feel it too much. However, you may have heard about it from some hardcore fans, especially from those who have spent many words on proving to casuals why X character isn't as good as first thought when playing on Hard mode.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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At high levels of play, Roy is a big force-deployed liability and is a low-tier combat unit. So he gets a bad rap for that aspect in particular in more hardcore circles. But as far as I know people pretty much like him as a character, and he is very popular.
As far as being a bad combat unit goes, (1) casuals playing the normal difficulty probably won't notice and (2) this is just a product of how classic FE balanced its main characters. Since the main character dying was the principal game over condition in classic FE, the devs were purposely conservative with their stats in order to ensure that players would have a challenge and not be able to easily steamroll the game with a slightly overlevelled main lord. A lot of the popular characters fall victim to this balancing quirk, even Marth and Lyn; but it's never put a damper on their popularities and none of them are so bad that casuals playing easier difficulties really feel it too much. However, you may have heard about it from some hardcore fans, especially from those who have spent many words on proving to casuals why X character isn't as good as first thought when playing on Hard mode.
IIRC Marth was said to be an OK unit except for the late game of Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon because the reclass system excludes him entirely, causing him to get severely powercrept, and Lyn mainly had the issue of everything being a horse mounted lance that wants to kill her as soon as she joins up with Eliwood and Hector.

But yeah, definitely the opinions of people who have hard modes as their idea of a good time. lol

Meanwhile I stopped playing Fire Emblem: Three Houses almost solely because I screwed up Ignatz's weapons training and probably won't be able to promote him because he never learned swords. T.T
 

Scrimblo Bimblo

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Just to throw it there, don't most arguments in favor of Incineroar also apply to Pichu?
He's not one of the most marketed Pokémon, but he's still a very popular/notable Pokémon. He has a unique identity in Smash (extreme glass cannon + self-hurting) that nobody else really fills. He's been very well received by Smash fans, at least in Ultimate.
Unlike Incineroar, he's a clone, but that also means that he might be a little easier to bring back since he'd share at least some code with Pikachu.

No shade to either of them, I'm going to make some enemies but if you ask me, I think there's more value in keeping two well-realized playstyles like those rather than whatever Lucario's moveset is, just because Lucario is more promoted.
 

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IIRC Marth was said to be an OK unit except for the late game of Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon because the reclass system excludes him entirely, causing him to get severely powercrept, and Lyn mainly had the issue of everything being a horse mounted lance that wants to kill her as soon as she joins up with Eliwood and Hector.

But yeah, definitely the opinions of people who have hard modes as their idea of a good time. lol

Meanwhile I stopped playing Fire Emblem: Three Houses almost solely because I screwed up Ignatz's weapons training and probably won't be able to promote him because he never learned swords. T.T
The thing is almost every FE unit is perfectly usable with some training, effort, and investment. It's just some require less of that than others to be good. But pro players are often looking for the most efficient ways to clear the game. It's just a matter of how you want to play and what you prioritize between efficiency, maxing out a particular endgame team, or simply playing with your faves.

I actually feel Shadow Dragon plays the best without the reclass system, which makes Marth even more usable than he already is. Honestly I still find Lyn and Marth both very fun to use even on harder modes.
Sometimes units just stick with you and you're loyal to them no matter how low on the tier list they are. Castor 1% crit a boss on Hard5 for me once to KO for exact damage, and I can't stop loving the guy since then.

Ignatz I think is pretty underwhelming, and you definitely wouldn't need to promote him to clear the game decently well...I do like him as a character, though.
 

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casuals playing the normal difficulty probably won't notice
No... no they absolutely will.
FE6 has 2 difficulties, Normal and Hard, and Hard is unlockable, so it basically has one difficulty.
In fact, they'd probably notice it more since they won't have the sense to pretty much put him on the back of a cavalier's back for the whole game as he is slaughtered by anyone with a lance.

FE6 is honestly a difficult game even without the fact that Roy, even on the "lowest" difficulty, cannot scale properly with the game's quality of enemies. Until the very very end of the game where he obtains the plot sword, it is really hard to keep Roy alive.
And keep in mind, this is assuming you go full favoritism and feed him all the exp in the world. He still has a level cap which you'll hit around halfway in and he is still VERY terrible then.

Lyn, despite being a worse unit and without a lategame saving grace, is a better user experience because for the most part, she can happily warm a bench and not jeopardize you failing the map and forcing a full restart.
 

SPEN18

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No... no they absolutely will.
FE6 has 2 difficulties, Normal and Hard, and Hard is unlockable, so it basically has one difficulty.
In fact, they'd probably notice it more since they won't have the sense to pretty much put him on the back of a cavalier's back for the whole game as he is slaughtered by anyone with a lance.

FE6 is honestly a difficult game even without the fact that Roy, even on the "lowest" difficulty, cannot scale properly with the game's quality of enemies. Until the very very end of the game where he obtains the plot sword, it is really hard to keep Roy alive.
And keep in mind, this is assuming you go full favoritism and feed him all the exp in the world. He still has a level cap which you'll hit around halfway in and he is still VERY terrible then.

Lyn, despite being a worse unit and without a lategame saving grace, is a better user experience because for the most part, she can happily warm a bench and not jeopardize you failing the map and forcing a full restart.
Memory might be failing me on FE6 since that is the one I have the least experience with and it's been quite a while, but I don't remember it being quite that bad on Normal mode?
For FE7, though, I think that's an exaggeration. Lyn is perfectly usable and trainable there on Normal mode. You'll definitely feel her limitations, and will quickly learn the value of keeping her and Eli safe, but most new players are probably not going to bench her and probably will still get thru the game ok.
 

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Memory might be failing me on FE6 since that is the one I have the least experience with and it's been quite a while, but I don't remember it being quite that bad on Normal mode?
For FE7, though, I think that's an exaggeration. Lyn is perfectly usable and trainable there on Normal mode. You'll definitely feel her limitations, and will quickly learn the value of keeping her and Eli safe, but most new players are probably not going to bench her and probably will still get thru the game ok.
It is quite that bad I would say around eh, chapter 12 or 13, where Roy is a saddleback princess for the large majority of the game.
That's around the time where they take the kid gloves off and stop feeding Roy low accuracy axemen and start using lancemen on wyverns and/or horses.

If there is one thing a low-statted, low-accuracy, infantry only swordsmen like Roy would hate it's high accuracy, high mobility, highspeed lancemen and oh look at what the game starts throwing out:
1732089837847.png


normal difficulty by the way.
Not Roy survivable on any difficulty even if you cheated and gave him his stat caps pre-plot sword.
 
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fogbadge

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Obviously not. I'm saying that these characters are dynamically similar - their appeal leans largely into the same rule of cool, this elusive, mysterious man of few words archetype. Decidueye is clearly similar in that respect. Fighter personality / roster flavor is something I value a lot, so the fact that Incineroar expresses himself so dynamically is significant. And Pokemon is an inherently colorful, silly series just as well so I quite enjoy seeing a hammy, expressive character taking the forefront over yet another brooding serious fighter.

I know this doesn't matter to everyone, but as a fan of games like Street Fighter, Darkstalkers or Guilty Gear I just like to keep things really diverse and lively. It's fun to have what feels like a dynamic cast that can play off each other in compelling ways. Not saying these are the priorities of Smash, but it's something I personally appreciate and look for.
that's an interesting point but I certainly wouldn't call any pokemon "brooding". and if you like the personality that's fine but personally I think inceneroar is a douchebag in this game made to match that ego maniac of a professor they saddled him with in the anime. I also don't see anyway we can be sure what personality sakurai would have given decidueye. he could have made anything up

but then again I think inceneroar rather illustrates a lack of imagination of sakurai's part going with a pokemon who's not only easy to turn into a fighter but got to be based on an exisiting fighter trope
 
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chocolatejr9

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Update: it appears Sony is, in fact, considering buying Kadokawa, though talks are still early and no decision has been made yet:


I did a bit of digging, and apparently Kadokawa's stocks are low at the moment due to a ransomware attack ealier this year, which is likely why Sony is going for them now (for context, a similar thing happened when Disney bought Fox). It might be best to mentally prepare ourselves if this goes through: this would likely be the first gaming acquisition to negatively affect Nintendo, and I'm not just talking Smash here...
 

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So marketable, that people posted two recent ads featuring him that you largely brushed aside. They aren't giving Toxapex, Landorus or Gholdengo these ads, even if they're important to the competitive scene.
I mostly agree with this post, but I should also point out that Gholdengo did actually get something like this: it made a very prominent appearance in the 2023 World Championship animated trailer (where it was facing Shaymin Sky Forme in the Go segment).
 

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Update: it appears Sony is, in fact, considering buying Kadokawa, though talks are still early and no decision has been made yet:


I did a bit of digging, and apparently Kadokawa's stocks are low at the moment due to a ransomware attack ealier this year, which is likely why Sony is going for them now (for context, a similar thing happened when Disney bought Fox). It might be best to mentally prepare ourselves if this goes through: this would likely be the first gaming acquisition to negatively affect Nintendo, and I'm not just talking Smash here...
Yeah. For one it would completely kill Pokémon Mystery Dungeon. Making any more from this point forward would require the collaboration of Sony and Nintendo, which I highly doubt is gonna happen. Also the chances of Dark Souls or Danganronpa getting into Smash will officially be dead.
 
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BuckleyTim

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"Kadokawa announces intent to drag this **** out as long as humanly possibly to really twist the knife into anyone who dislikes corporate megamergers"

It really just highlights again how earthshatteringly stupid it was for Microsoft to buy up Activision when they did. Call of Duty can't leave PlayStation until long after Xbox bows out of direct competition with the company, but the rights to Elden Ring, the biggest single player game in arguable a full on decade, will get scooped up not even as the main priority, as a side effect of a "Disney buys Fox" level consolidation in the anime market.

I keep repeating myself on this because what a rip.
 

RileyXY1

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In terms of Gen 2 it absolutely is one of the most marketed.

At least when Melee was in development.
Yeah. Pichu got its own series of anime shorts, and later on after Melee it got its own game where it's the star (Pokémon Ranger: Guardian Signs) and a special event in HGSS. It's also on tons of merch including figures, plushies, and more, even today. Being the baby form of the franchise's mascot helps Pichu in this regard.
 
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