Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Diddy Kong]

Just a question, why is Incineroar so powerful and hated in the Pokemon competitive scene ? What's the deal?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Just a question, why is Incineroar so powerful and hated in the Pokemon competitive scene ? What's the deal?

It has intimidate, which is a great ability. It's got great bulk and physical attack. It has a nice bulky typing. It has a ton of great support moves. These are all great things for VGC. For singles, it's too slow to be effective. It's really only busted in doubles.

And yet, somehow it's the check that keeps other ludicrous threats from getting out of hand. It's the cat of the healthy meta.

 

[RileyXY1]

It has intimidate, which is a great ability. It's got great bulk and physical attack. It has a nice bulky typing. It has a ton of great support moves. These are all great things for VGC. For singles, it's too slow to be effective. It's really only busted in doubles.

And yet, somehow it's the check that keeps other ludicrous threats from getting out of hand. It's the cat of the healthy meta.

And Intimidate was so busted they kept nerfing it in the last couple gens. In Gen 7 they created the Adrenaline Orb item which boosts Speed when Intimidated, and they followed it up in Gen 8 by giving Pokémon with four abilities (Oblivious, Own Tempo, Inner Focus, and Scrappy) immunity to Intimidate, along with making it so Intimidate now activates the ability Rattled. Then again in Gen 9 they created the new ability Guard Dog which means that any Pokémon with this ability gets their attack boosted by Intimidate rather than lowered.

 

[Guynamednelson]

It has intimidate, which is a great ability. It's got great bulk and physical attack. It has a nice bulky typing. It has a ton of great support moves.

And much like real pro wrestling, it's rigged as hell.

They made it busted in VGC on purpose to make it seem like it has more non-furry fans than it really does.

 

[fogbadge]

Just a question, why is Incineroar so powerful and hated in the Pokemon competitive scene ? What's the deal?

because competitive gamers are never happy. neither are Pokemon fans. so imagine how miserable competitive Pokemon fans are

 

[Swamp Sensei]

And much like real pro wrestling, it's rigged as hell.

They made it busted in VGC on purpose to make it seem like it has more non-furry fans than it really does.

Uh...

So did they do this with literally any other competitively strong Pokemon?

I mean we can apply this to Greninja who was a terror for years. Lucario too.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Uh...

So did they do this with literally any other competitively strong Pokemon?

I mean we can apply this to Greninja who was a terror for years. Lucario too.

Those two, Cinderace, Meowscarada.

 

[Noipoi]

And much like real pro wrestling, it's rigged as hell.

They made it busted in VGC on purpose to make it seem like it has more non-furry fans than it really does.

Does this logic apply to something like Great Tusk or Chi-Yu?

Was making Chi-Yu so busted actually a furry psyop?

 

[PersonAngelo53]

I don’t think this completely kills their chances. Who would have expected Nintendo to partner with Microsoft for Banjo and Steve before Smash Ultimate? Lego Horizon is on the Switch so it looks like Sony isn’t totally opposed to working with Nintendo either.

Good point, maybe there is still a chance.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Those two, Cinderace, Meowscarada.

They're putting stats in the starters to make the friggen' players (gay) furries!

 

[Louie G.]

Anyways, here's my take on Pokemon, from most to least likely under the assumption we get three to five vets:

Doesn’t it raise a bit of a red flag that the newest Pokemon veteran here and the only one who didn’t debut in Gen 1 is 15+ years old? I’m pretty confident Greninja will have no problem returning, at least.

Granted I’ll be the first to say arbitrary “gen” representation doesn’t matter all that much, but I feel like there’s also a flaw in treating Pokemon’s newest characters as inherently expendable and prioritizing all six of the characters who debuted over 25 years ago over even one past Gen 4. Mostly off vibes - but it just doesn’t feel right nowadays. I know we’d be getting a new Pokemon anyway but still, is that how they’ll want to portray the series moving forward? Nothing worth salvaging over a 15 year interval, probably closer to 20 by the time a new Smash actually drops?

 

[Guynamednelson]

Does this logic apply to something like Great Tusk or Chi-Yu?

Was making Chi-Yu so busted actually a furry psyop?

Nah, it's just a legendary/mythical/whatever. Of course it'd be busted.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Nah, it's just a legendary/mythical/whatever. Of course it'd be busted.

Aren't starters nowadays designed to be good too nowadays?

I mean, Skeledirge, Rillaboom and Inteleon all had some competitive success and they apparently aren't furry psy-ops.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Aren't starters nowadays designed to be good too nowadays?

I mean, Skeledirge, Rillaboom and Inteleon all had some competitive success and they apparently aren't furry psy-ops.

They aren't meant to be AS busted as Cinderace and Meowscarada and don't have the benefits of stuff like being the first members of their trios to join Pokemon Unite, or how quickly Goh's Scorbunny evolved in the anime.

 

[BuckleyTim]

Give it to me straight, doc-

What are the chances of Bomberman happening this time?

 

[Gengar84]

Give it to me straight, doc-

What are the chances of Bomberman happening this time?

I could see it. He was popular enough to get an assist trophy last time so he’s definitely at least on the radar.

 

[fogbadge]

Give it to me straight, doc-

What are the chances of Bomberman happening this time?

I think his chances are better than people give him

 

[DarthEnderX]

What are the chances of Bomberman happening this time?

40%.

 

[Arcanir]

They aren't meant to be AS busted as Cinderace and Meowscarada and don't have the benefits of stuff like being the first members of their trios to join Pokemon Unite, or how quickly Goh's Scorbunny evolved in the anime.

I highly doubt they gave the gorilla instant Grassy Terrain, a move that gives it strong priority in said terrain, and good stats for it and thought 'yeah, this ain't gonna be good at all'. In turn, I highly doubt they gave Meowscarada (and Cinderace and Greninja) a nerfed version of Protean and it's clones and thought it wouldn't negativity affect it's competitive performance.

Also, they had Sobble evolve to Inteleon relatively quickly as well and made Rillaboom the most busted member of Leon's team in the anime outside of Charizard. Cinderace was not the only one who got good treatment.

 

[Opossum]

And much like real pro wrestling, it's rigged as hell.

They made it busted in VGC on purpose to make it seem like it has more non-furry fans than it really does.

Its hidden ability being Intimidate was hard coded when Sun and Moon first leaked. Making it good in VGC wasn't an attempt at astroturfing its fanbase count. It was just a natural consequence of them trying to make the starters usable.

..."Trying" being the operative word here. Sometimes they very clearly miss the mark like with Decidueye's hidden ability and mixed attacker spread with an awkward speed stat, but they at least tried to rectify that with the Hisuian variant.

This post also implies that competitive fans somehow don't count or count "less" and that's absolutely something I don't vibe with.

 

[Ivander]

Give it to me straight, doc-

What are the chances of Bomberman happening this time?

50%. He either happens or doesn't happen.

That said, his Assist Trophy and Mii Costume with changeable colors do lean his chances to favourable.

 

[92MilesPrower]

Give it to me straight, doc-

What are the chances of Bomberman happening this time?

Bomberman is logically next in line for new Konami series reps, already being an AT and having a full-fledged Mii Costume.

 

[Guynamednelson]

This post also implies that competitive fans somehow don't count or count "less" and that's absolutely something I don't vibe with

They do. But being playable in Smash is literally the only marketing Incineroar got that's really relevant to non-competitive players.

We got more owls. And wannabe Pikachu. And wolves. And arctic foxes.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Give it to me straight, doc-

What are the chances of Bomberman happening this time?

I will give a generous 15%. And I'm sure giving a percentage that low will ruffle some feathers, but I'm a realist.

 

[Noipoi]

Give it to me straight, doc-

What are the chances of Bomberman happening this time?

Better chance than Rayman

 

[Schnee117]

Nah, it's just a legendary/mythical/whatever. Of course it'd be busted.

Now that's a good joke

 

[Gengar84]

I will give a generous 15%. And I'm sure giving a percentage that low will ruffle some feathers, but I'm a realist.

15% is actually really high for any specific third party character when you think about it. There are so many viable options that it’s really hard for any one character to have a really high likelihood.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

15% is actually really high for any specific third party character when you think about it. There are so many viable options that it’s really hard for any one character to have a really high likelihood.

But wait, I think the code is cracked.

He's in.

 

[AlRex]

Pokémon seems very contentious, but I am curious on a hypothetical: what would people’s Pokémon representation be if previous Smash games weren’t a factor?

Pikachu is basically a given. Consideration is often given to body type, generations, sometimes different aspects of the series as a whole…I think ideally for me, you include one “badass fighter” type, one quadruped, and one weirdly shaped (most likely object-based) one to represent the variety of body types.

I also kind of like the idea of an “Evil Team Grunt” as a broader character with a lot of Generation alts (main default is Team Rocket). They’d fight directly with a lot of items, have a few moves that are Pokémon summons, but not be the same as Pokémon Trainer and be a switching character. But this also feels like an idea one would have in the wake of Pokémon Trainer, for better or worse, and it might disappoint some for not being a Pokémon directly.

Maybe uhhh Pikachu, Eevee [w/some elemental shapeshifting added], Sceptile & Celebi, Chandelure, and Team Grunt. But something about that also feels off. The most iconic other Pokémon across (without Smash in consideration) probably are the Gen 1 starters first and third evolutions, Meowth, Mewtwo, Gengar, Pichu maybe, the Gen 3 starters, Gardevoir, Lucario, Mimikyu, the idea of weird object Pokémon in general gets memed about, Mudkip was a meme, + whatever they’re promoting at the moment. But you can’t put like 15 Pokémon in there even if it is Pokémon. Ones that got into Pokken also are generally fairly popular, to my understanding.

 

[CannonStreak]

But wait, I think the code is cracked.

He's in.

Don’t you mean Gex the Gecko?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Pokémon seems very contentious, but I am curious on a hypothetical: what would people’s Pokémon representation be if previous Smash games weren’t a factor?

Pikachu is basically a given. Consideration is often given to body type, generations, sometimes different aspects of the series as a whole…I think ideally for me, you include one “badass fighter” type, one quadruped, and one weirdly shaped (most likely object-based) one to represent the variety of body types.

I also kind of like the idea of an “Evil Team Grunt” as a broader character with a lot of Generation alts (main default is Team Rocket). They’d fight directly with a lot of items, have a few moves that are Pokémon summons, but not be the same as Pokémon Trainer and be a switching character. But this also feels like an idea one would have in the wake of Pokémon Trainer, for better or worse, and it might disappoint some for not being a Pokémon directly.

Maybe uhhh Pikachu, Eevee [w/some elemental shapeshifting added], Sceptile & Celebi, Chandelure, and Team Grunt. But something about that also feels off. The most iconic other Pokémon across (without Smash in consideration) probably are the Gen 1 starters first and third evolutions, Meowth, Mewtwo, Gengar, Pichu maybe, the Gen 3 starters, Gardevoir, Lucario, Mimikyu, the idea of weird object Pokémon in general gets memed about, Mudkip was a meme, + whatever they’re promoting at the moment. But you can’t put like 15 Pokémon in there even if it is Pokémon. Ones that got into Pokken also are generally fairly popular, to my understanding.

Dunno bro. Pikachu, Charizard, Mewtwo, Lucario and Greninja are pretty much a given in every situation.

 

[SPEN18]

Dunno bro. Pikachu, Charizard, Mewtwo, Lucario and Greninja are pretty much a given in every situation.

Agreed on those five, but what about the rest of the roster?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Was making Chi-Yu so busted actually a furry psyop?

The chances of furry spies working to make a goldfish busted in VGC are low...


But never 0

 

[Ivander]

But wait, I think the code is cracked.

He's in.

Well, you're not wrong. It is cracked.

In fact, I think it's a bit too cracked. Actually, I think it's straight up broken.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

that's an interesting point but I certainly wouldn't call any pokemon "brooding". and if you like the personality that's fine but personally I think inceneroar is a douchebag in this game made to match that ego maniac of a professor they saddled him with in the anime.

I mean... Incineroar is supposed to be a heel wrestler. Being a douchebag in the ring is kind of a part of the act, that's why he's a Dark type lmao

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

The chances of furry spies working to make a goldfish busted in VGC are low...


But never 0

That one dev that painstakingly made Chi-Yu a competitive threat be like:

 

[SPEN18]

Then again I always thought Incineroar's Dark typing was sort of a publicity stunt. Like, give us a Fire/Fighting starter without giving us a Fire/Fighting starter lol. He's literally exactly what a Fire/Fighting type would look like, they just didn't make him that because they knew people were complaining about those after Emboar made it three straight.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Then again I always thought Incineroar's Dark typing was sort of a publicity stunt. Like, give us a Fire/Fighting starter without giving us a Fire/Fighting starter lol. He's literally exactly what a Fire/Fighting type would look like, they just didn't make him that because they knew people were complaining about those after Emboar made it three straight.

It's probably easier to understand in Japan where their name for the dark type is closer to "evil" than "dark"...even though not every dark-type is supposed to be evil.

 

[fogbadge]

I mean... Incineroar is supposed to be a heel wrestler. Being a douchebag in the ring is kind of a part of the act, that's why he's a Dark type lmao

just cause he's supposed to be a douchebag doesn't make him any more tolerable

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Then again I always thought Incineroar's Dark typing was sort of a publicity stunt. Like, give us a Fire/Fighting starter without giving us a Fire/Fighting starter lol. He's literally exactly what a Fire/Fighting type would look like, they just didn't make him that because they knew people were complaining about those after Emboar made it three straight.

It was really funny for me specifically because when Incineroar's design got leaked I went to a friend of mine like "yo, everyone's saying he's another Fire/Fighting, but watch him be a heel and end up as a Dark type" and then it actually happened and I popped off lol