Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Will]

I'm sure if I had said any house leader not named Edelgard, I'd have gotten impaled years ago

What are you talking about? I always hyped up Claude and I never-

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

And Rich Uncle Pennybags.

You know what, I don't care if he's not from a video game, I would legit pop off over Mr. Monopoly.

 

[Ivander]

I'm sure if I had said any house leader not named Edelgard, I'd have gotten impaled years ago

It's very ironic when you think about how people are saying Ceruledge has a good chance because not only is it a popular and marketed Pokemon, but also something that can really appeal to Sakurai due to his fondness for "edgy" or "moody" characters. But somehow Dimitri never had a chance.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

It's very ironic when you think about how people are saying Ceruledge has a good chance because not only is it a popular and marketed Pokemon, but also something that can really appeal to Sakurai due to his fondness for "edgy" or "moody" characters. But somehow Dimitri never had a chance.

That's because Dimitri is an "anime swordsman"

Which itself is also incredibly ironic since you cannot be more swordsman-like than literally having swords for hands

 

[fogbadge]

That's because Dimitri is an "anime swordsman"

Which itself is also incredibly ironic since you cannot be more swordsman-like than literally having swords for hands

yes you can. you be a living sword with swords for arms and legs

 

[Guynamednelson]

That's because Dimitri is an "anime swordsman"

Erm, ackshually, he's an anime spearman

 

[HyperSomari64]

Adding them is like adding Bonk or Gex, sadly.

Hey, Smash needs more cave people.
unless it makes the caveman from the NSO Play test Program playable

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Erm, ackshually, he's an anime spearman

Yeah, I know.
But I have so little faith in FE haters that I think they would just call any weapon a sword when it comes to characters from that IP

 

[Ivander]

Erm, ackshually, he's an anime spearman

Spears are just swords with bigger hilts. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[Kirbeh]

I think you may be misunderstanding there? The statement was that people are discounting Eevee simply for being a gen 1 Pokemon in spite of its other merits. Not that people are overly focused on Eevee itself.

Also just saying it's not only about Eevee for me lol, that's only one of a good number of Pokes I'd like to see.

No, I agree, I even mention that Eevee has more merit in my response to Nelson (and have defended its individual merits in the past, even a mere few pages ago.)

You're a frequent proponent of Eevee though hence the mention. Nelson and you both agree on Eevee's merits aside from simply being Gen 1, you also seem to take issue with Incin's inclusion which is what I was getting at.

That was worded rather poorly on my part though, so apologies for any confusion there.

It's my honest assessment of the character's merits, based on a number of factors that I think are relevant, and with the concerted effort to be reflective of where I might be biased. It's in that sense that it's attempting to be "objective," as much as is feasible, recognizing it won't be perfect. Doesn't mean there aren't also subjective factors at play in that. Obviously in any speculation of what characters ought to be added to the game there is going to be some matter of opinion, and some matter of personal bias or preference. Not everyone is going to value the qualities the same, not everyone is going to evaluate what constitutes merit the same. For some it's literally just "do I like them." That's ok.

No objections there.

I just think that using most of the usual metrics people apply to determine if a character would be a good addition, Incineroar falls very short, except for possibly with one single thing, being that a lot of people like his moveset. Which is one point in his favor, but it's pretty much the only remotely compelling one that's been laid out, and it's not one without dispute (largely because that sort of thing is one of the most subject to personal preference or opinion, and one that is fulfilled by much of the competition in a priority-based system as well).

I mean, agree to disagree I suppose. People warming up to Incin based on play style/move set is definitely a thing, but I wouldn't say that's all he has. He has both popularity and prominence by virtue of being a starter. Are there others that are more popular? Sure. More prominent? Again, yes (this point is the most fleeting as each generation shifts focus.) But I'd still argue that Incineroar has plenty of merit of his own. There were other perfectly viable choices who would've made just as much sense (maybe more depending on who you ask), I can agree there, but it ultimately came down to Sakurai wanting to do a wrestler and seeing Incineroar as the means to accomplish that idea.

Again though, these are all subjective merits. Trying to claim Incineroar has none that are compelling is and always will be a subjective statement, not an objective one.

That's what I've been doing, though? "I didn't and don't agree with the choice to make Incineroar playable, would've preferred X or Y, and here's where I think Incineroar falls short in comaprison to those other options." I get that people take issue whenever you try to put a finger on what counts as "objective" or "subjective," and it's a losing game trying to make that entirely precise. I can see where people would get defensive when you say things along the lines of "looking at it objectively, I think this choice is/was wrong." As I explained, I used that terminology to make it clear that I don't want to argue out of mere spite or anger, and that I'm trying to be fair by holding Incineroar to the same standards that I'd hold any character to in evaluation of their addition.

I think the problem with your posts regarding the matter are that it can come off as though you're trying to make claim to a position of authority on the subject by making statements about "objectivity". Not all of your posts read that way but the last couple in particular do.

You say things like, "people don't see things objectively once a character is in," but there was no objectivity in their viewing in the first place. It's all opinion. If anything, most people's assumption that Incineroar will be cut should serve to show that people understand he might not have the staying power necessary when weighed against Pikachu or Charizard or a potential newcomer that they need to make space for.

The argument in Incineroar's favor is that he had enough merit to be added in the first place, if you think he's a likely cut, I think you'll find that most will agree.

You also make comments like "needing to look past opinion" and "Sakurai's own bias" while only really delving into your own biases in the end anyway. You can hardly blame people for getting annoyed when you phrase his selection as being "wrong" instead of just saying, you would've liked someone else. Your word choice is ultimately serving to create the exact opposite interpretation of the point you seem to be wanting to make.

If you don't mind sharing; what are the specific standards that you're trying to weigh every character against?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Bandana Waddle Dee is now a sword fighter.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Bandana Waddle Dee is now a sword fighter.

Anyone with disjointed attacks is a sword fighter

 

[SharkLord]

Anyone with disjointed attacks is a sword fighter

Sword fighter

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Its discussions like this that somewhat makes me wish I had played Pokémon past Gen 1 to offer some additional commentary to the debate. Kind of hard to offer substantive points when your ideas for fighters don't go much beyond "I don't know Shuckle seems they'd be a fun addition".

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

View attachment 396294
Sword fighter

I hate that this makes just enough sense to work with my joke...

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Anyone with disjointed attacks is a sword fighter

I mean if you want to be technical, any male character is a sw-

[USER HAS BEEN BANNED FOR INAPPROPRIATE JOKE]

 

[SharkLord]

I mean if you want to be technical, any male character is a sw-

[USER HAS BEEN BANNED FOR INAPPROPRIATE JOKE]

"Too many (swords)men, are there? What are you going to do about it, hm?"
Byleth:

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

"I don't know Shuckle seems they'd be a fun addition".

You can't fool me, Dorkly. I know it's you.

 

[Laniv]

Bandana Waddle Dee is now a sword fighter.

What is a man spear? A miserable little pile of secrets sword on a stick!

But enough talk! Have at you!

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

You can't fool me, Dorkly. I know it's you.

You're not going to stop my campaign of Alola Shuckle 4 Smash.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Can Joker's knife count as a sword?
and maybe, his gun?

 

[Schnee117]

View attachment 396294
Sword fighter

I can't believe Min-Min is a better whipsword user than the actual whipsword user

pain peko

 

[Guynamednelson]

What is a man spear? A miserable little pile of secrets sword on a stick!

But enough talk! Have at you!

That reminds me, guess who else are officially swordies now?

The Vampire Killer is really a spherical sword on a chain, you know.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

What is a man spear? A miserable little pile of secrets sword on a stick!

But enough talk! Have at you!

View attachment 396296

This reminds me, even if it's SUPER unlikely, that if we lived in a world where we could get Bandana Dee and some form of Dark Matter in Smash (not Gooey, I mean like an antagonistic version of it), I genuinely kinda feel like I'd be set on Kirby? Obviously there'd be some bias picks or characters like Magolor that could happen anyway (I love Robobot, so Susie would be a big plus), but like that would cover a lot of the bases I think.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

You can't fool me, Dorkly. I know it's you.

Dammit, now I made myself think of a Dorkly skit with Shuckle assuming he's on Ultimate's roster.

 

[Gorgonzales]

Anyone with disjointed attacks is a sword fighter

Banjo fans realizing their favorite platforming mascot was another swordfighter all along

 

[SharkLord]

This reminds me, even if it's SUPER unlikely, that if we lived in a world where we could get Bandana Dee and some form of Dark Matter in Smash (not Gooey, I mean like an antagonistic version of it), I genuinely kinda feel like I'd be set on Kirby? Obviously there'd be some bias picks or characters like Magolor that could happen anyway (I love Robobot, so Susie would be a big plus), but like that would cover a lot of the bases I think.

Bandana Dee is generally agreed to be the last core Kirby member. The RtDL crew isn't the only team of characters in a Kirby game, but Meta, Dedede, and BWD have been by and far the most consistent major characters since that game. BWD in particular was mostly relegated to supporting roles in the mainline titles, with his playable appearances mostly relegated to spinoffs or as part of an ensemble cast in Star Allies, but as of Forgotten Land he's cemented himself as the unambiguous player two of the series.

As for Dark Matter... Honestly, they haven't shown up much lately. They had the trilogy to themselves in the early days, have implied but unstated connections to other a lot of later villains, but the only times they've shown up directly since 64 are in a Mass Attack sub-game and as a surprise bonus boss in Planet Robobot. I'd actually argue that Magolor's been more prominent in Kirby overall, with a good smattering for cameo appearances throughout the later games and a dedicated extra mode in RtDL DX.

 

[ninjahmos]

Oh, we're talking about swordfighters now, huh? How about a certain samurai?

 

[Kirbeh]

This reminds me, even if it's SUPER unlikely, that if we lived in a world where we could get Bandana Dee and some form of Dark Matter in Smash (not Gooey, I mean like an antagonistic version of it), I genuinely kinda feel like I'd be set on Kirby? Obviously there'd be some bias picks or characters like Magolor that could happen anyway (I love Robobot, so Susie would be a big plus), but like that would cover a lot of the bases I think.

Nah, I won't be set on Kirby until we get all the Dream Friends + Prince Fluff and Dark Matter minimum. Bonus points if we get Nightmare. Maybe someone from Forgotten Land if they feel like it.

 

[SPEN18]

Again though, these are all subjective merits. Trying to claim Incineroar has none that are compelling is and always will be a subjective statement, not an objective one.

I think the problem with your posts regarding the matter are that it can come off as though you're trying to make claim to a position of authority on the subject by making statements about "objectivity". Not all of your posts read that way but the last couple in particular do.

You say things like, "people don't see things objectively once a character is in," but there was no objectivity in their viewing in the first place. It's all opinion. If anything, most people's assumption that Incineroar will be cut should serve to show that people understand he might not have the staying power necessary when weighed against Pikachu or Charizard or a potential newcomer that they need to make space for.

The argument in Incineroar's favor is that he had enough merit to be added in the first place, if you think he's a likely cut, I think you'll find that most will agree.

You also make comments like "needing to look past opinion" and "Sakurai's own bias" while only really delving into your own biases in the end anyway. You can hardly blame people for getting annoyed when you phrase his selection as being "wrong" instead of just saying, you would've liked someone else. Your word choice is ultimately serving to create the exact opposite interpretation of the point you seem to be wanting to make.

If you don't mind sharing; what are the specific standards that you're trying to weigh every character against?

Yeah as I already alluded to, there's not much point in continuing to argue about what counts as objective or subjective; I already explained as best I could what I meant with the terminology. I already acknowledged that the final assessment is always going to ultimately come down to a matter of opinion, because everybody values and perceives every aspect differently.
I just think there is a spirit of argument that attempts to look beyond just "do I personally like or care about this character." Like if you interview a bunch of people and you're supposed to come to a conclusion about who's best for the job. Clearly you're not capable of coming to a truly "objective" conclusion about who is, in all facets, the best option, but you're trying to be "objective" in the sense that you look at everybody's resume, consider all their merits, and give everyone a fair shake.

When a character makes it in, it does get more difficult to publicly scrutinize their inclusion, and large groups of fans do generally give vets a pass on various aspects of their merit. Sometimes, I notice an incongruence in discussion between newcomers and veterans, where people will apply some personal methodology to scrutinize potential newcomer choices, but never dare to say anything negative about a veteran. I think it's a little unfairly applied in some cases, and I'd like to challenge that thinking.

As far as standards, it's all the usual stuff people might look at to evaluate a character's merit or chances. Popularity, marketing and promotion, cultural impact and prevalence, representative niche, number of appearances, role importance in those appearances, sales of the games they appear in, what they might offer in unique gameplay, how they compare with other characters and options, and etc. etc.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Bandana Dee is generally agreed to be the last core Kirby member. The RtDL crew isn't the only team of characters in a Kirby game, but Meta, Dedede, and BWD have been by and far the most consistent major characters since that game. BWD in particular was mostly relegated to supporting roles in the mainline titles, with his playable appearances mostly relegated to spinoffs or as part of an ensemble cast in Star Allies, but as of Forgotten Land he's cemented himself as the unambiguous player two of the series.

As for Dark Matter... Honestly, they haven't shown up much lately. They had the trilogy to themselves in the early days, have implied but unstated connections to other a lot of later villains, but the only times they've shown up directly since 64 are in a Mass Attack sub-game and as a surprise bonus boss in Planet Robobot. I'd actually argue that Magolor's been more prominent in Kirby overall, with a good smattering for cameo appearances throughout the later games and a dedicated extra mode in RtDL DX.

I mean, Void Termina's final form (when you do the big friend laser clash) is very reminiscent of Dark Matter. Even if it's not directly NAMED Dark Matter, there are definitely still connections being made to it in modern era, including it and Kirby basically coming from the same ilk, so I would still personally consider it a major antagonistic force even if only indirectly, but that's just me.

Spoiler: Image was bigger than I thought it'd be lol

 

[SharkLord]

I mean, Void Termina's final form (when you do the big friend laser clash) is very reminiscent of Dark Matter. Even if it's not directly NAMED Dark Matter, there are definitely still connections being made to it in modern era, including it and Kirby basically coming from the same ilk, so I would still personally consider it a major antagonistic force even if only indirectly, but that's just me.

Spoiler: Image was bigger than I thought it'd be lol

Yeah, it's undeniably a reference of some sort. Still, Dark Matter itself is more of an implicit lore figure than an actively overarching force. In general, Kirby doesn't have a truly recurring main villain now that Dedede's firmly redeemed himself; All the bosses can be tied together through flavor text or references in one way or another, but for the most part they're one-off appearances because kirby evicts them from his plane of reality as soon as possible

 

[Kirbeh]

Yeah as I already alluded to, there's not much point in continuing to argue about what counts as objective or subjective; I already explained as best I could what I meant with the terminology. I already acknowledged that the final assessment is always going to ultimately come down to a matter of opinion, because everybody values and perceives every aspect differently.
I just think there is a spirit of argument that attempts to look beyond just "do I personally like or care about this character." Like if you interview a bunch of people and you're supposed to come to a conclusion about who's best for the job. Clearly you're not capable of coming to a truly "objective" conclusion about who is, in all facets, the best option, but you're trying to be "objective" in the sense that you look at everybody's resume, consider all their merits, and give everyone a fair shake.

I'd argue that's what tends to be tried here most of the time honestly. It's the reason we always circle back to a select few characters in most scenarios. If anything, (I think you'll find that the thread is more often ready to immediately dismiss an idea than discuss it for not being relevant or popular enough.)

I think the sticking point with Incineroar was that you came off as coming from a position where the character had no value or merit. Which could very well be the case in your opinion, but combined with the talking points of objectivity, made it seem as though you were presenting you subjectivity as objectivity.

When a character makes it in, it does get more difficult to publicly scrutinize their inclusion, and large groups of fans do generally give vets a pass on various aspects of their merit. Sometimes, I notice an incongruence in discussion between newcomers and veterans, where people will apply some personal methodology to scrutinize potential newcomer choices, but never dare to say anything negative about a veteran. I think it's a little unfairly applied in some cases, and I'd like to challenge that thinking.

While this is definitely true, I don't think it's as prevalent as it might always seem. Going to the opposite end of things, cuts talk will often see plenty of people be more than ready to discuss cutting plenty of characters. People will absolutely debate over it, but there are characters that generally agreed upon getting the ax and plenty of ones considered in danger or even "unneeded" depending on who you ask.

It's a divisive topic for sure, with a heavier leaning on keeping as many as possible, but people aren't unwilling to discuss the matter.

As far as standards, it's all the usual stuff people might look at to evaluate a character's merit or chances. Popularity, marketing and promotion, cultural impact and prevalence, representative niche, number of appearances, role importance in those appearances, sales of the games they appear in, what they might offer in unique gameplay, how they compare with other characters and options, and etc. etc.

Those are mostly fair imo, but again there's plenty of subjectivity to a lot of those. And much like actual Smash selection, not all of those metrics are going to apply for every choice, every time.

That's not to say they shouldn't be used but a lot of characters you might not consider as being compelling still likely tick a lot of those boxes.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Yeah, it's undeniably a reference of some sort. Still, Dark Matter itself is more of an implicit lore figure than an actively overarching force. In general, Kirby doesn't have a truly recurring main villain now that Dedede's firmly redeemed himself; All the bosses can be tied together through flavor text or references in one way or another, but for the most part they're one-off appearances because kirby evicts them from his plane of reality as soon as possible

True, I just feel like Dark Matter is definitely the most overarching since it had a whole trilogy and has had several appearances and references since.

Could even do a little lore flair thing by having his entrance be like the Star Dream portal and the little vial that shatters and becomes the Dark Matter Swordsman Clone, since Star Dream has a Space-Time Transport Program in Meta Knightmare lol

 

[SharkLord]

True, I just feel like Dark Matter is definitely the most overarching since it had a whole trilogy and has had several appearances and references since.

Could even do a little lore flair thing by having his entrance be like the Star Dream portal and the little vial that shatters and becomes the Dark Matter Swordsman Clone, since Star Dream has a Space-Time Transport Program in Meta Knightmare lol

It's kinda funny how the Dark Matter Swordsman shot up in the fandom after Planet Robobot. Previously it was almost always the orb form, with the Swordsman being nearly forgotten. But then it's suddenly just there, twenty years later, and everyone collectively realized "Yo wait this is sick we gotta see more of him"

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

It's kinda funny how the Dark Matter Swordsman shot up in the fandom after Planet Robobot. Previously it was almost always the orb form, with the Swordsman being nearly forgotten. But then it's suddenly just there, twenty years later, and everyone collectively realized "Yo wait this is sick we gotta see more of him"

I think it helps that Robobot's Swordsman is an incomplete sample, so it can't really go back and forth, the orb form abilities and attacks still spawn from the Swordsman lower body, so it feels like giving Swordsman access to pretty much everything orb form can do while also giving him a replica Rainbow Sword or whatever that attack was all about to (ironically) flesh out the capabilities of both.

 

[Pupp135]

Pokémon seems very contentious, but I am curious on a hypothetical: what would people’s Pokémon representation be if previous Smash games weren’t a factor?

Pikachu is basically a given. Consideration is often given to body type, generations, sometimes different aspects of the series as a whole…I think ideally for me, you include one “badass fighter” type, one quadruped, and one weirdly shaped (most likely object-based) one to represent the variety of body types.

I also kind of like the idea of an “Evil Team Grunt” as a broader character with a lot of Generation alts (main default is Team Rocket). They’d fight directly with a lot of items, have a few moves that are Pokémon summons, but not be the same as Pokémon Trainer and be a switching character. But this also feels like an idea one would have in the wake of Pokémon Trainer, for better or worse, and it might disappoint some for not being a Pokémon directly.

Maybe uhhh Pikachu, Eevee [w/some elemental shapeshifting added], Sceptile & Celebi, Chandelure, and Team Grunt. But something about that also feels off. The most iconic other Pokémon across (without Smash in consideration) probably are the Gen 1 starters first and third evolutions, Meowth, Mewtwo, Gengar, Pichu maybe, the Gen 3 starters, Gardevoir, Lucario, Mimikyu, the idea of weird object Pokémon in general gets memed about, Mudkip was a meme, + whatever they’re promoting at the moment. But you can’t put like 15 Pokémon in there even if it is Pokémon. Ones that got into Pokken also are generally fairly popular, to my understanding.

I’m going to do this in a scenario where Pokemon was just added to SSB as Jigglypuff and the current iteration of Pokemon Trainer are heavily intertwined with SSB for me.

At the bare minimum, I‘d probably be pressured to having Pikachu, Charizard, and the a pokemon from the newest generation (I’ll go with Tinkaton).

After that, I’d guess that The Pokemon Company would want Lucario and Mewtwo.

If I can make some creative decisions, I’d probably round it out with Mew (My favorite pokemon), and a Pokemon Trainer who uses Eeveelutions.

In summary, Pikachu, Charizard, and Tinkaton are used for the minimum lineup, and Mewtwo, Mew, Lucario, and an Eeveelution Pokemon Trainer would be the supplemental fighters.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Since I brought up Kirby a bit, I'm also kind of curious.

Do you guys think that after Forgotten Land's reception and the continued use of the model in Return to Dreamland Deluxe that Dedede's model might change to his current look next game?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Since I brought up Kirby a bit, I'm also kind of curious.

Do you guys think that after Forgotten Land's reception and the continued use of the model in Return to Dreamland Deluxe that Dedede's model might change to his current look next game?

I imagine HAL might want to push for the updated design.

 

[Gengar84]

Since I brought up Kirby a bit, I'm also kind of curious.

Do you guys think that after Forgotten Land's reception and the continued use of the model in Return to Dreamland Deluxe that Dedede's model might change to his current look next game?

I was wondering the same thing when I played the game. I just beat the game this week so things are still fresh in my head. Not entirely sure how to get enough stats to max out all of the power ups though. Anyway, I ended up thinking that they’re more likely to go with Dedede’s classic look for Smash since his design in Forgotten Land is such a departure. The classic design best captures Dedede as a whole rather than one specific version.