Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Dinoman96]

I guess more than anything I'd be genuinely surprised to see Nintendo let Sakurai go off and work on an original project and not attempt to get Smash out the door within the Switch 2's first couple of years, like what they did with Ultimate prior. Like I like Kid Icarus Uprising as much as the next guy but objectively speaking in hindsight, it'd probably would have made more business sense to get Sakurai to start working on Smash 4 sometime after Brawl's release and get it prepped for the Wii U's launch window period in 2012 or early 2013.

 

[CommanderZaktan]

I guess more than anything I'd be genuinely surprised to see Nintendo let Sakurai go off and work on an original project and not attempt to get Smash out the door within the Switch 2's first couple of years, like what they did with Ultimate prior. Like I like Kid Icarus Uprising as much as the next guy but objectively speaking in hindsight, it'd probably would have made more business sense to get Sakurai to start working on Smash 4 sometime after Brawl's release and get it prepped for the Wii U's launch window period in 2012 or early 2013.

I think he's already making a game that isn't Smash and might be announced soon.

 

[BuckleyTim]

I do want it to be something original, but also I feel like this thread's collective sanity will not be able to survive the additional 3 or so year gap that sakurai doing a non-smash project will add to when the next smash is revealed

 

[fogbadge]

I do want it to be something original, but also I feel like this thread's collective sanity will not be able to survive the additional 3 or so year gap that sakurai doing a non-smash project will add to when the next smash is revealed

good. you’ll all finally come to my way of thinking

 

[Noipoi]

I do want it to be something original, but also I feel like this thread's collective sanity will not be able to survive the additional 3 or so year gap that sakurai doing a non-smash project will add to when the next smash is revealed

It’d be torment in the moment, but it’d make the official reveal of a new Smash all the more exciting.

To use an example of my own fandom, Pokemon fans are so used to frequent releases that the few times we go a year without a new game people start losing their minds. But then once a new game finally comes, the hype is exhilarating.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Or simply that Sakurai wanted to limit guests in the base roster to no more than three just like in Brawl (he'd stated there'd be 1 to 2 guests outside of Snake during development, so while we only got two in the end with Snake and Sonic, seems the maximum he was willing to go was three) and the three we got were higher priority.

Very doubtful Nintendo forced their hand to make him purposely exclude Snake, that's just conspiracy theory stuff.

That seems like a reach when he added 3 more via DLC and even more in Ultimate through DLC while keeping everyone. Sakurai has gone on record stating multiple times that Nintendo makes the decision for who gets added not him, so him limiting the 3rd Parties to those 3 doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. The decision almost certainly had to come from either an issue with rights, time constraints, or from another source at Nintendo whoever that is.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

The fact Sakurai had to mention "assuming we're able to get it made" gives me great doubt it's Smash. Why would there be any question about another Smash game being possible to make (unless it's like, a mobile one lol).

Sounds like something a bit more experimental to me.

'
What if that's because they're trying to bring everyone back again?

 

[fogbadge]

Joking aside I think some extra downtime between games will do us all good in the long run. You know a bit more to go over things before hand

also it’ll be nice to have one newcomer we can all agree is a dead cert

 

[Noipoi]

Am I the only one who thought the “assuming we’re able to get it made” bit wasn’t Sakurai dropping sneaky little hints, he was just being humble?

 

[Guynamednelson]

'
What if that's because they're trying to bring everyone back again?

Damn I was going to say that in a more joking way

 

[ninjahmos]

I know I’m late but:

What’s most frustrating about Snake missing from Smash For is that there’s no given reason for him being absent.

Kojima and Konami were cool with it. MGS3D had just released on 3DS. MGS was still selling gangbusters and had a new game coming out. It all lined up that Snake SHOULD have come back. But he didn’t. Why?

This may sound petty and pointing fingers but I truly believe his exclusion from Smash For comes from the unwarranted negative reaction from a sect of the fanbase stating that Snake “didn’t fit”. So what did we get in terms of newcomers for Smash For? Overall, until DLC and Cloud, the newcomers we got were all relatively safe newcomers that FIT a specific art direction and vibe that it seemed like Smash fans wanted. Mega Man and Pac-Man were the two most obvious ones that just made sense because they “fit” with the rest of the Smash crew and are associated with Nintendo systems for years.

It seemed like Nintendo was trying to adhere to one part of the fanbase by cutting Snake. They just didn’t expect the massive fallout that came with his exclusion from the other side of the fanbase.

I still think a lot of the characters chosen so far seem to piggyback off the statement that was made against Snake. Pretty much all of Ultimate’s DLC “fit” and I’m a little tired of it. Give me some radical ****. Give me Doom Slayer or Leon Kennedy or Dragonborn. Give me something that sticks out like a sore thumb like Steve does because those are the most exciting characters to me.

Well, given what the Metal Gear series is like, despite being an M-rated series, I actually don't think Snake feels too out of place. But I do think that some more characters from M-rated franchises (like Doomguy, Leon and Dragonborn) in Smash would be awesome.

 

[SubspaceJigglypuff]

in 2023 when Studio S was formed

I think that's when the Smash 6 project plan was drafted. The thing with the 2021 "secret project" I think makes it unlikely to be Smash is that Sakurai said he took a break from Smash after Sora, and wasn't sure when the next one would be made. I don't think he'd have been drafting a game he was on break from.

But assuming similar development speed to Ultimate and Smash 4, a game starting planning in November 2023 would still result in a game that releases sometime in 2026, so I still think Smash is coming soon.

 

[waddledeeonredyoshi]

Assuming that Sakurai's new project isn't Smash then that's going to leave Nintendo's brand new system Smashless for like 3 or for 4 years depending on when his new game comes out.

Either that or he's letting someone else take the reins over the franchise.

I think it's just a safe bet to believe he's just gonna be working on Smash 6 again.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Given the turmoil behind the scenes between Konami/Kojima, that there was no company content in Smash 4 (let alone Metal Gear) and the incredibly lapsed appearance by their games on Nintendo hardware in that gen (putting aside the Virtual Console, Konami had no games on the Wii U) I'm inclined to believe there was probably not that strong a relationship between them and Nintendo around that period. Nintendo getting out of that 2012-2016 hole and Konami figuring itself out after Kojima was let go were likely both critical to getting a more symbiotic business relationship between them going again, Smash included. The various content in Ultimate, Super Bomberman R in the Switch trailer, and 2020's Momotaro Dentetsu becoming the best-selling Konami game of all time in Japan tells you how much success that renewed dynamic yielded strong results.

 

[Louie G.]

I think Snake's absence in Smash 4 is moreso an omen of the way we will discuss the absence of several guest fighters to come. We should probably get prepared for it.

Perhaps there was initially personal conflict about how Sakurai felt bringing in Snake and collaborating with Konami in the midst of their conflict with his friend Kojima. Maybe Konami's business model then looked different than it does now. We'll probably never really know, frankly. But I think a lot of this is trying to find reason where there may simply not be any.

We all know how guest characters work in other series, and we know that Smash is largely the exception to the rule. Guest characters have become series mainstays, Sonic, PAC-MAN and Mega Man are practically family. But can Smash afford to let this be the case with every single character? Everyone is Here existed as a special means of celebrating everywhere the series had been up to this point. I think it's proof that if push came to shove, we can bring Snake back, we can bring Cloud back, and whoever else. But the only character that we have any concrete, solid evidence of being anything more than a special case is Sonic the Hedgehog. He is the only character who has made it back to the series without the EIH hook, returning for Smash 4. And that doesn't make things much easier, because I think most people agree if there was going to be one single exception it'd probably be him.

I highlight this because Sonic is our only frame of reference for how the series "traditionally" handles its guests. And since Brawl only had two of them, the transition from Ultimate into the next game makes it especially uncertain. I don't know how many will return, I'm a bit optimistic that we'll see about half of them come back. But for the other half, there won't necessarily be a good reason why they aren't here. It will just be that they weren't prioritized in the transition. Namco is working on the game - why would Kazuya be cut? Sonic is back, why would Bayo or Joker not come back? I think we'll find that sometimes the answer is simply "just cuz". To shed some light on the way Snake was handled in Smash 4, we're just going to have to see where we go from here.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

That seems like a reach when he added 3 more via DLC and even more in Ultimate through DLC while keeping everyone. Sakurai has gone on record stating multiple times that Nintendo makes the decision for who gets added not him, so him limiting the 3rd Parties to those 3 doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. The decision almost certainly had to come from either an issue with rights, time constraints, or from another source at Nintendo whoever that is.

No, he said Nintendo decided Ultimate's DLC specifically, not him.
You are literally attributing that to every decision on any roster ever made when he's made it clear he made decisions on his own otherwise.

Furthermore, adding more 3rd Party characters later through DLC doesn't at all negate the idea that initial plans for base would have been 3 at max. Completely separate decisions being made.

 

[SubspaceJigglypuff]

I think it's just a safe bet to believe he's just gonna be working on Smash 6 again.

Yes, and that would still be true if the 2021 project isn't Smash. I'm sure Smash is being worked on as we speak, but that doesn't necessarily mean the 2021 project was Smash.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Yes, and that would still be true if the 2021 project isn't Smash. I'm sure Smash is being worked on as we speak, but that doesn't necessarily mean the 2021 project was Smash.

I do think this would honestly be the funniest scenario. Sakurai wasn't talking about Smash at all and it was just a coincidence, but Smash still happens at about the same time as expected anyway, so it really doesn't matter at the end of the day lol

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Furthermore, adding more 3rd Party characters later through DLC doesn't at all negate the idea that initial plans for base would have been 3 at max. Completely separate decisions being made.

Was this ever stated or is it just an assumption? I do not recall him stating 3 being a hard number of 3rd party characters. It seems more likely there was background issues going in more so than Sakurai giving himself a set limitation for the game.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Was this ever stated or is it just an assumption? I do not recall him stating 3 being a hard number of 3rd party characters. It seems more likely there was background issues going in more so than Sakurai giving himself a set limitation for the game.

There was a hard limit stated for Brawl that just just so happened to be the amount we ended up with for Smash For's base.

I get that the idea that Snake (who only got in as a favor between Sakurai and Kojima) was likely not a high priority to return over the most requested character for Smash in Brawl's time , another big fan request that didn't get a chance last time , and a major icon who happened to be owned by the company that was a major part of development of Smash For is a hard pill to swallow and it's just easier to point fingers at Nintendo or some other internal conspiracy shenanigans, but still.

It makes far more sense than saying Don Nintendo had a sit down with Sakurai and gave him an offer he can't refuse in keeping Snake specifically out of Smash For.

 

[Laniv]

Speaking of third-party characters and cuts...

Do y'all think Joker's coming back?

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Speaking of third-party characters and cuts...

Do y'all think Joker's coming back?

I think it would be a little harder to get Joker back than Sonic or Bayonetta since you'd have to talk to ATLUS directly instead of just SEGA alongside the other two, but I honestly do believe Joker is coming back. I don't really have a reason why beyond stuff that applies to most of Ultimate's cast (Persona is a huge name and Persona 5 especially made it so, Persona games are on Switch now and will likely continue to come to Switch 2 like Persona 3 Reload so the companies will have a relationship, etc), Joker just kinda feels like he'd come back to me.

 

[Louie G.]

Speaking of third-party characters and cuts...

Do y'all think Joker's coming back?

I wouldn't be surprised either way, but I think he's the weakest link in the Sega chain. Realistically that should be Bayonetta but I unno, her Nintendo clout probably benefits her here despite Persona being such a hot commodity now.

That last point is why I can't count Joker out entirely though. And he's probably one of the most popular characters to come out of Ultimate, judging by how many people play him. Persona is one of Sega's three "pillars" last they spoke on it, so while I think Joker is on thin ice I'm not sure if there is any other series that would take precedent over its return (the other pillar is Yakuza, which is its own can of worms right now). To be honest with you I'm not opposed to swapping Joker out with someone else from Persona / Megami Tensei but I feel like that isn't usually how Smash handles it. It's also pretty nice to have a more contemporary guest character around, to balance things out.

When I think about "characters who could easily come back, but won't" though, he comes to mind. Kinda depends on the approach. Does Nintendo hedge all their bets on a select few partners, and bring back everyone from Sega / Capcom / Namco etc? Or do they diversify, bring back as many collaborators as possible at the expense of some secondary picks from trusted partners (Joker, Kazuya etc)? I wouldn't fault you for keeping Joker if you were doing the former, but I may raise an eyebrow if I saw Joker taking precedent over some of the wider competition. Personally I think the latter scenario is more likely so make of that what you will. That's with little regard to the eventual veteran DLC though, where I'm at least sure he'd be highly requested to return.

 

[Idon]

Speaking of third-party characters and cuts...

Do y'all think Joker's coming back?

Yeah.
Ultimate's menu aesthetic is entirely based on his game, Persona remains huge and grows every day, and Sakurai himself is a fan of the work.
Also attracts a large number of actual players of the character as well.
We also all know that Atlus is more than willing to lend out their golden boy to literally everything in existence, competing with 2B in that regard.

At the very least, he is most definitely a higher priority than Bayonetta whose franchise is basically just up in flames now, sells a fraction of a fraction of Persona, and has a pretty specialist playerbase.

 

[fogbadge]

Speaking of third-party characters and cuts...

Do y'all think Joker's coming back?

considering how much everyone seems to love it and how atlus pushes it I’d say he has a decent shot

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I wouldn't be surprised either way, but I think he's the weakest link in the Sega chain. Realistically that should be Bayonetta but I unno, her Nintendo clout probably benefits her here despite Persona being such a hot commodity now.

That last point is why I can't count Joker out entirely though. And he's probably one of the most popular characters to come out of Ultimate, judging by how many people play him. Persona is one of Sega's three "pillars" last they spoke on it, so while I think Joker is on thin ice I'm not sure if there is any other series that would take precedent over its return (the other pillar is Yakuza, which is its own can of worms right now). To be honest with you I'm not opposed to swapping Joker out with someone else from Persona / Megami Tensei but I feel like that isn't usually how Smash handles it. It's also pretty nice to have a more contemporary guest character around, to balance things out.

When I think about "characters who could easily come back, but won't" though, he comes to mind. Kinda depends on the approach. Does Nintendo hedge all their bets on a select few partners, and bring back everyone from Sega / Capcom / Namco etc? Or do they diversify, bring back as many collaborators as possible at the expense of some secondary picks from trusted partners (Joker, Kazuya etc)? I wouldn't fault you for keeping Joker if you were doing the former, but I may raise an eyebrow if I saw Joker taking precedent over some of the wider competition. Personally I think the latter scenario is more likely so make of that what you will. That's with little regard to the eventual veteran DLC though, where I'm at least sure he'd be highly requested to return.

Honestly, I almost feel like Joker could out-prioritize Bayonetta, if only by a bit, simply because of that pillars statement. Like yeah, Bayonetta has the Nintendo clout and they financed 2 and 3, so she could still make it anyway, but if SEGA themselves consider Persona one of the pillars of their company alongside Sonic and Yakuza, I would think they would want to prioritize that.

I still feel like Bayonetta would be pretty easy pickings anyway, just pick her up when you pick up Sonic and stuff since SEGA hasn't been doing much with her (since Nintendo financed 2 and 3), but I dunno, I feel like Joker would be a higher priority, even if only in the case of which one you develop first.

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

Speaking of third-party characters and cuts...

Do y'all think Joker's coming back?

I think guessing which third-parties will come back/take priority is sort of a complete crap shoot because there's very little to go off of. "Who takes priority between Joker and Kazuya" for a random example is for the most part just a guess with maybe some gesturing at the little sales data you could assume.

In any case though I imagine if he's not in the base game he'd come back later anyways.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Speaking of third-party characters and cuts...

Do y'all think Joker's coming back?

I think Joker is a prime example of a "easy to get, but low priority" third party character. Compared to his Sega contemporaries, he doesn't have Sonic's immense legacy or the Nintendo investment that Bayonetta has. I think they'll be prioritized over Joker.

Compared to other third party veterans, he's a bit of a small fry. He's not Cloud, or Ryu, or Hero, or Kazuya. He's not indicative of a genre like most of the other characters are. Even Bayonetta is one of the first franchises that come to mind for character action games (the other big ones being Devil May Cry and God of War). Persona is a big deal, and Joker is the de facto Persona character. But Persona has never been as big as a lot of the other third party franchises in Smash.

There's not really anything preventing Joker from coming back. But now that Persona 5 isn't in the public eye anymore, I wonder if other characters, old and new will stand out a lot more.

 

[Speed Weed]

I'll be honest I've always kinda thought that Joker outstrips Bayonetta by almost every metric and been slightly bothered at how often all that's negated by "wellll but Bayonetta's basically a Nintendo character so she's a lock". At a certain point it feels to me like people predicting her out of obligation, relying on this one thing to almost resign themselves going "well she HAS to stay, whether we like it or not". Maybe I'm projecting, IDK

 

[Louie G.]

Like yeah, Bayonetta has the Nintendo clout and they financed 2 and 3, so she could still make it anyway, but if SEGA themselves consider Persona one of the pillars of their company alongside Sonic and Yakuza, I would think they would want to prioritize that.

I think "they" is the important indicator here. Who is "they", at the end of the day?

Sure, Sega wants one thing. But if Sakurai goes to them and asks for Sonic and Bayonetta, they're not going to fight tooth and nail with an ultimatum to make sure Joker gets in too. They can talk about it, but if that's not what he's there for then that's that. I feel like people overestimate how much leverage these companies have over Sakurai and Nintendo when it comes to business decisions. They can nudge but they can't force it, and they aren't going to sacrifice whatever they can get. In my opinion.

I don't even really know how much direct say Nintendo has over Sakurai's base roster decisions, outside of giving the thumbs up or a thumbs down. I'm sure they have their preferences and will coerce Sakurai to make certain decisions with their past and future plans in mind. Whether that still involves Bayonetta, I don't know. I've stated before but I think Bayonetta having pretty much her whole series on Switch matters more than whether or not Bayo 3 was controversial. If the series is on ice for the next decade I'd be worried about her future in Smash, but for now she's still fairly relevant and in line with the window that Sakurai will inevitably be looking at to make certain roster decisions.

Bottom line is Sega's priorities, or any other collaborator, won't necessarily correspond with Nintendo and Sakurai's. The way things pan out from there is up to whoever's voice you think would be the strongest here. Sakurai being influenced by Persona as much as he is would probably be one of the stronger cases for Joker returning on base roster, as Idon alluded to before. Persona being a pillar of Sega's business model keeps it in the public eye, it makes a strong case for Joker and Persona's lasting popularity, but that in and of itself doesn't dictate Sakurai's priorities and I think Nintendo has a bit more overcast on what takes precedent. Again that's just me, but I think people are being a bit too pessimistic on Bayo in comparison.

Given the choice, btw, I'd much rather see Joker come back than Bayonetta. It's just not what I think would happen right now.

I'll be honest I've always kinda thought that Joker outstrips Bayonetta by almost every metric and been slightly bothered at how often all that's negated by "wellll but Bayonetta's basically a Nintendo character so she's a lock". At a certain point it feels to me like people predicting her out of obligation, relying on this one thing to almost resign themselves going "well she HAS to stay, whether we like it or not". Maybe I'm projecting, IDK

I'm bothered by this too, but moreso that I think it holds weight and drags down the roster. I do think these "out of obligation" characters are kind of boring to talk about. I don't think Bayonetta is the only one (for the sake of this conversation, I won't open that can of worms). But I think Nintendo's own stock in this series makes it fair to judge it under different pretenses - if any other series owned by Nintendo got a new mainline title and a spinoff during the Switch era, we'd treat it as an active series. Being Switch exclusives published by Nintendo, I would imagine Bayonetta being treated quite similarly here.

That's where my mind is at, even if it isn't especially enticing to me to see it that way. It's not that I hate Bayonetta or anything either I just... really don't click with her for whatever reason, moveset wise I can't really wrap my head around her and her overall presence is kind of nothing to me. But that's just me.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'll be honest I've always kinda thought that Joker outstrips Bayonetta by almost every metric and been slightly bothered at how often all that's negated by "wellll but Bayonetta's basically a Nintendo character so she's a lock". At a certain point it feels to me like people predicting her out of obligation, relying on this one thing to almost resign themselves going "well she HAS to stay, whether we like it or not". Maybe I'm projecting, IDK

Bayonetta having the credentials as a ballot winner, asterisk or otherwise, is a pretty big draw. I know she was possibly planned before then, but I don't think Nintendo and Sakurai would outright lie to us about her performance.

That aside, I actually do put a lot of stock into the Nintendo investment angle. The company is more interested in the franchise than Sega is at this point. It's also why I think franchises like Shovel Knight, Monster Hunter, Bravely Default and Octopath Traveler are much more likely than most people think.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I'll be honest I've always kinda thought that Joker outstrips Bayonetta by almost every metric and been slightly bothered at how often all that's negated by "wellll but Bayonetta's basically a Nintendo character so she's a lock". At a certain point it feels to me like people predicting her out of obligation, relying on this one thing to almost resign themselves going "well she HAS to stay, whether we like it or not". Maybe I'm projecting, IDK

Yeah. The argument of "basically being a Nintendo character" only holds ground if Nintendo keeps investing towards the IP in the future.

If they deem Bayonetta's Switch performance a dud and stop throwing money at Platinum for more games for more games of that series, not to mention Kamiya's departure making things weird on top of that, then Bayonetta's "merits" as a pseudo-Nintendo character kinda don't exist anymore.

Her entire relevance in Smash is held by a thread and people don't realize it because "she's Nintendo"

 

[Speed Weed]

Bayonetta having the credentials as a ballot winner, asterisk or otherwise, is a pretty big draw. I know she was possibly planned before then, but I don't think Nintendo and Sakurai would outright lie to us about her performance.

That aside, I actually do put a lot of stock into the Nintendo investment angle. The company is more interested in the franchise than Sega is at this point. It's also why I think franchises like Shovel Knight, Monster Hunter, Bravely Default and Octopath Traveler are much more likely than most people think.

......I will be honest, I forgot about the ballot

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I think "they" is the important indicator here. Who is "they", at the end of the day?

Sure, Sega wants one thing. But if Sakurai goes to them and asks for Sonic and Bayonetta, they're not going to fight tooth and nail with an ultimatum to make sure Joker gets in too. They can talk about it, but if that's not what he's there for then that's that. I feel like people overestimate how much leverage these companies have over Sakurai and Nintendo when it comes to business decisions. They can nudge but they can't force it, and they aren't going to sacrifice whatever they can get. In my opinion.

I don't even really know how much direct say Nintendo has over Sakurai's base roster decisions, outside of giving the thumbs up or a thumbs down. I'm sure they have their preferences and will coerce Sakurai to make certain decisions with their past and future plans in mind. Whether that still involves Bayonetta, I don't know. I've stated before but I think Bayonetta having pretty much her whole series on Switch matters more than whether or not Bayo 3 was controversial. If the series is on ice for the next decade I'd be worried about her future in Smash, but for now she's still fairly relevant and in line with the window that Sakurai will inevitably be looking at to make certain roster decisions.

Bottom line is Sega's priorities, or any other collaborator, won't necessarily correspond with Nintendo and Sakurai's. The way things pan out from there is up to whoever's voice you think would be the strongest here. Sakurai being influenced by Persona as much as he is would probably be one of the stronger cases for Joker returning on base roster, as Idon alluded to before. Persona being a pillar of Sega's business model keeps it in the public eye, it makes a strong case for Joker and Persona's lasting popularity, but that in and of itself doesn't dictate Sakurai's priorities and I think Nintendo has a bit more overcast on what takes precedent. Again that's just me, but I think people are being a bit too pessimistic on Bayo in comparison.

Given the choice, btw, I'd much rather see Joker come back than Bayonetta. It's just not what I think would happen right now.

"They" is SEGA in the case of my comment, because when Persona is one of their primary pillars pit against Bayonetta who they didn't finance ANY of the sequels of, SEGA would prioritize Joker in a heartbeat.

Granted, I do also think Bayonetta has a place here and Sakurai would likely be the driving force behind getting her back. Essentially I feel like SEGA would be easy to approach about Sonic for obvious reasons and Sakurai would be keen on also picking up Bayonetta since he dislikes cutting veterans since every character has their fans. Since I don't really see SEGA fighting to prevent that or playing hardball on a character they basically never touch, I could see her being a sort of "higher priority by proxy" deal because if you're gonna talk to SEGA about Sonic anyway, you might as well ask.

However, I also feel like SEGA would push for Joker to come back as well, since Persona is huge for them. SEGA owns ATLUS, and Sakurai is a fan of P5, so I doubt that would go poorly or be suddenly hardballed.

That's why I added the bit at the end of "I could see Joker outprioritize Bayonetta, even if it's only in the case of who gets developed first" because I feel like SEGA (and ATLUS by extension) would be really easy to pick up the veterans from.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

......I will be honest, I forgot about the ballot

Being fair, datamines around the time of Smash 4's post-launch cycle do imply the results were rigged in her favor.

Like, I'm not saying she didn't do well in the ballot (Sakurai has never been known to lie so I do believe the stats he shared are true) but it's very convenient that the "most realizable winner" was someone they had already started to work on months prior.

Nowadays, we know from Sakurai's mouth that Sora and Banjo were the ballot's actual top 2 which... yeah, I can see why Bayonetta's the most realistic option way back in 2015. But it's still pretty damn convenient that they were always planning to add Bayo, ballot or not.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

If they deem Bayonetta's Switch performance a dud and stop throwing money at Platinum for more games for more games of that series, not to mention Kamiya's departure making things weird on top of that, then Bayonetta's "merits" as a pseudo-Nintendo character kinda don't exist anymore.

Here's the thing. I don't think Nintendo considers her Switch performance a dud.

• The ports of the first two games sold really well
• The third game, controversial as is was, sold at least a million
• They were confident enough in the franchise to at least try a spin-off in Bayonetta Origins

It's not a perfect performance. And Kamiya leaving and Platinum imploding does have me worried. But I don't think Nintendo would see the Switch success as a dud. Bayonetta 2's performance on Wii U was considered a grand success. The franchise's Switch performance is more successful than that. Nintendo does count ports as new titles when looking as monetary value.

Regardless it's hard for me to find any smaller title that sells a million copies to not be a success. But I'm the guy who screamed that ARMS was a success so... Sue me lol

 

[Louie G.]

If they deem Bayonetta's Switch performance a dud and stop throwing money at Platinum for more games for more games of that series, not to mention Kamiya's departure making things weird on top of that, then Bayonetta's "merits" as a pseudo-Nintendo character kinda don't exist anymore.

Her entire relevance in Smash is held by a thread and people don't realize it because "she's Nintendo"

I'm really just not a fan of this line of thinking. Many series in Smash have had duds and continued to have a designated place in the series. Obviously some of these are hard to compare, being legacy first parties and not a third party with vested interest - Metroid or Star Fox, for example. But nonetheless, these less popular games continued to get representation. Other M was the basis for Samus' suit design and an entire stage with a boss battle. The Mother series has never been a financial darling but its critical success and sentimentality has kept it close to Smash's heart.

Obviously, Bayonetta isn't Metroid. Or Mother, even. But I think people have been getting too reactive about these road bumps with characters like Bayonetta and Min-Min (a topic for another time). "She's Nintendo" is as good a reason as anything else to anticipate some drive to keep her around. Bayonetta is a well regarded series, even if the previous game brought about some bad press, and one that has been fairly significant to the past decade of company interests. It's one of the only M-rated series that Nintendo has extended this hand out toward. Reception aside, Bayo 3 was a highly anticipated title for about half a decade.

I said it before, but I think the next 5-10 years will be more of an indication of Bayonetta's potential failure than this presumed roster window which was... let's say somewhere 2022-2024 most likely. At that stage I have to doubt they've fully sworn off the series, and to be honest I think Sakurai would be even less swayed by the shortcoming if he still believes the first two games to be worth representing on their own.

He keeps company interests in mind but is clearly less directly invested in them, he is not explicitly a vessel to sell Nintendo games - if he puts Bayonetta on the roster mockup, is Nintendo going to tell him no? I doubt it. And I find it far more likely that Nintendo looks over his shoulder and asks him to include her anyway, to reflect their last generation of games where she had a not insignificant presence. Nintendo is not ashamed of these games the way a lot of fans seem to believe they are, and Sakurai could probably care less if they are or aren't if he wanted her back anyway.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Being fair, datamines around the time of Smash 4's post-launch cycle do imply the results were rigged in her favor.

Like, I'm not saying she didn't do well in the ballot (Sakurai has never been known to lie so I do believe the stats he shared are true) but it's very convenient that the "most realizable winner" was someone they had already started to work on months prior.

Nowadays, we know from Sakurai's mouth that Sora and Banjo were the ballot's actual top 2 which... yeah, I can see why Bayonetta's the most realistic option way back in 2015. But it's still pretty damn convenient that they were always planning to add Bayo, ballot or not.

I have a funny theory about that.

Going back to the datamines, Ryu, Cloud, and Bayonetta's slots were all there after Mewtwo (I think). Corrin's slot was added much later. What if there was always going to be a slot for a "ballot character" but when Bayonetta proved to do really well, they decided she could fill in that slot. That new slot would then be decided to be a character from a recent game, which would go to Corrin. It would fit with Sakurai's hesitance for Corrin (they weren't originally the plan) while also making it so that no one technically lied.

I have no confirmation for this, but the puzzle pieces would fit.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Nintendo Music app updated by the way, and we got Wind Waker, so we finally have a second Gamecube title to go alongside Metroid Prime.

Only OST left that's been revealed anywhere is Super Mario World.

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

Nintendo Music app updated by the way, and we got Wind Waker, so we finally have a second Gamecube title to go alongside Metroid Prime.

Only OST left that's been revealed anywhere is Super Mario World.

I haven't checked the app since it launched, does it still not credit the composers?