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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Gengar84

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Ever thought about how it could be a Pokemon fan well-aware that Game Freak is only interested in the most recent ****, thus making the Gen 9 vote the most realistic option if they want their favorite franchise to get anything?

It's all a matter of perspective.
Fair enough. I’m not going to say they’re wrong for voting for what they want, even if I don’t really understand the logic. Although, I’m not sure Pokémon is a franchise you ever have to worry about not getting anything. We’re basically guaranteed at least one Pokemon every Smash game. If you want a specific favorite Pokemon, that’s different. Voting for Toxtricity makes perfect sense to me for example. Voting for “Sword and Shield Pokemon” is another story. I’m also a huge Pokemon fan if you couldn’t tell by my user name.
 
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The Stoopid Unikorn

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Fair enough. I’m not going to say they’re wrong for voting for what they want, even if I don’t really understand the logic. Although, I’m not sure Pokémon is a franchise you ever have to worry about not getting anything. We’re basically guaranteed at least one Pokemon every Smash game. If you want a specific favorite Pokemon, that’s different. Voting for Toxtricity makes perfect sense to me for example. Voting for “Sword and Shield Pokemon” is another story. I’m also a huge Pokemon fan if you couldn’t tell by my user name.
Yes, we get a Pokemon every game. In the launch roster.

But now we know DLC is not as much of a guarantee. We know Pokemon fans aren't always going to be fed in DLC cycles.
 

Guynamednelson

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Ever thought about how it could be a Pokemon fan well-aware that Game Freak is only interested in the most recent ****, thus making the Gen 9 vote the most realistic option if they want their favorite franchise to get anything?

It's all a matter of perspective.
How do you explain the lack of Gen 9 Pokemon in TCG Pocket then? They do focus on the latest and not so greatest stuff, but clearly not to the extent where the previous gens all get jack **** in terms of marketing.
 

Gengar84

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Yes, we get a Pokemon every game. In the launch roster.

But now we know DLC is not as much of a guarantee. We know Pokemon fans aren't always going to be fed in DLC cycles.
Yeah, I think I’m not being clear as to why I’m confused. I’m not questioning why someone would vote for a particular Sword and Shield Pokemon, just that it’s a generic logo that feels like a placeholder.
 

TheFirstPoppyBro

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How do you explain the lack of Gen 9 Pokemon in TCG Pocket then? They do focus on the latest and not so greatest stuff, but clearly not to the extent where the previous gens all get jack **** in terms of marketing.
Previous Gens don't get zero stuff in Smash base rosters either, that's why there are so many Poke Ball Pokemon and things like the Unova League stage in Smash 3DS.
 

TheFirstPoppyBro

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Yeah, I think I’m not being clear as to why I’m confused. I’m not questioning why someone would vote for a particular Sword and Shield Pokemon, just that it’s a generic logo that feels like a placeholder.
I mean the game wasn't out yet. That poll was done in August 2019 according to Japanese date format, so it wouldn't release for another 3 months.
 

Guynamednelson

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Previous Gens don't get zero stuff in Smash base rosters either, that's why there are so many Poke Ball Pokemon and things like the Unova League stage in Smash 3DS.
Yes, but it should extend to new fighters too. Not everyone is solely going to be interested in playing as a new Pokemon from the latest gen, even more so when mobile spinoffs are downloaded en masse and don't always focus on the latest generation.
 
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Gengar84

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I mean, how else are you supposed to portray "Sword and Shield Pokemon"?
I don’t know, if they had Cinderace or Toxtricity or something, I’d have been less confused. I wouldn’t have thought so many people just want any random Pokemon from the gen but don’t care which one. Unless they’re combining those votes into one spot which makes a lot of sense now that I think about it.

I mean the game wasn't out yet. That poll was done in August 2019 according to Japanese date format, so it wouldn't release for another 3 months.
Okay, that makes a little more sense at least. Although how do you know at that point you’ll even like the Pokemon they choose?
 
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TheFirstPoppyBro

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Okay, that makes a little more sense at least. Although how do you know at that point you’ll even like the Pokemon they choose?
Well, I'm looking it up now, and since the game was revealed at Pokemon Day 2019, by August we knew about Grookey, Scorbunny, Sobble, Gossifluer/Eldegoss, Corviknight, Wooloo, Drednaw, Zacian and Zamazenta, Yamper, Impidimp, Alcremie, Rolycoly, and Duraludon.

I believe they were a couple days from learning about Galarian Zigzagoon, Linoone, and Obstagoon, and Morpeko a bit later.

So I wouldn't really say they had a lot of really viable looking options outside of the starter evos that they didn't know yet and I guess Zacian or Zamazenta?
 

Gengar84

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Yeah, I think my brain just works different. I care about specific characters more than I do game representation. There’s way too many Pokemon in each gen for me to root for any random Pokemon from a game. I love plenty of them but there are also quite a few I don’t care for. If I voted for “Sword and Shield Pokemon” and then got a Pokemon I disliked, I’d feel pretty disappointed. I’d personally feel like I wasted my vote in that scenario. Although I understand that not everyone thinks the way I do and they’re not wrong if that’s what they want.
 

TheFirstPoppyBro

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Corviknight could have been cool to have, honestly.
I feel like it would've been weird to have a straight up bird that couldn't fly freely as a fighter, but yeah, I agree.

I'd be shocked if it isn't at least a Poke Ball Pokemon next game tbh.
 
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GoldenYuiitusin

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I feel like it would've been weird to have a straight up bird that couldn't fly freely as a fighter, but yeah.

I'd be shocked if it isn't at least a Poke Ball Pokemon next game tbh.
Weird, yes, but not any weirder than Ridley being unable to fly freely imo (a sentiment Sakurai agreed with before adding him in Ultimate anyway :V).
 

TheFirstPoppyBro

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Weird, yes, but not any weirder than Ridley being unable to fly freely imo (a sentiment Sakurai agreed with before adding him in Ultimate anyway :V).
That's true, but to that I say at least Ridley has like arms and things, and he's fought Samus in grounded combat before.

Corviknight is straight up a metal crow, and not in like a cartoonish way like how Kazooie can use her wings lol
 

GoldenYuiitusin

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That's true, but to that I say at least Ridley has like arms and things, and he's fought Samus in grounded combat before.

Corviknight is straight up a metal crow, and not in like a cartoonish way like how Kazooie can use her wings lol
And metal is heavy; maybe it needs time to rest after flying so long. :wario:
 

TheFirstPoppyBro

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And metal is heavy; maybe it needs time to rest after flying so long. :wario:
I will say, if Corviknight had been playable, it would've been really funny to consider the possibility of the Tinkaton/Corviknight rivalry in trailer form lol
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

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I feel like it would've been weird to have a straight up bird that couldn't fly freely as a fighter, but yeah, I agree.

I'd be shocked if it isn't at least a Poke Ball Pokemon next game tbh.
Nah. You just follow Capcom's lead and make Pet Shop 2 :4pacman:
 

Gengar84

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I’d love to see a Bug or Ghost type Pokemon in Smash. My top five favorite overall Pokemon are either Bug or Ghost.

My top five are:

Gengar
Cofagrigus
Golisopod
Orbeetle
Hisuian Zoroark

Lokix is my third favorite Bug type. I’d love to see any of these in Smash but I’m not sure how likely any of them are. My gut tells me only Gengar and Hisuisn Zoroark have much a chance of these.
 

DarthEnderX

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Pretty sure the actual western SF show is some sort of homage to the action/superhero cartoons from the prior decade (even it had a toyline)
Yes. It was very much GI Joe-coded.

You can't just say "oh, you're throwing your vote because it'll obviously happen" on an event that would eventually not happen whatsoever.
But if you can't even be bothered to pick a specific Pokemon, you don't actually care who you get.

You aren't voting for something you want, you're just trying to be 'right'. And that is throwing your vote away.

Ever thought about how it could be a Pokemon fan well-aware that Game Freak is only interested in the most recent ****, thus making the Gen 9 vote the most realistic option if they want their favorite franchise to get anything?
No. I haven't thought that. Because it's psychotic.
 
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SPEN18

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Ah, yes, Pokémon Pocket. Another spinoff to kind of observe what's getting highlighted in. It's obvious why Mewtwo, Charizard, and Pikachu were chosen as the mascots for the first set, for instance. And while the first set was intentionally mostly focused on gen 1, with no later-gen mons getting the ex treatment, out of the handful of later-gen additions it doesn't seem coincidental that the likes of Greninja and Gardevoir were made into pretty conspicuously powerful cards, if you ask me. Other popular mons are being intentionally held back, of course, for example with the next set being Sinnoh-focused it's clear now why the likes of Lucario and Garchomp weren't in the first set.
 

Þe 1 → Way

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It would be interesting to see Smash go back to a previous generation for a rep, likely one with a history that would warrant going back for. Darkrai my beloved could have a lot of fun slecials, Hypnosis and Dream Eater are moves I always thought were begging to be Smashified.

That said, with the next roster having a lot to figure out, I can't imagine we'll see anything other than a promo pick from Pokemon, which is naturally the general consensus. Personally, I hope the Grass Starter of the next game is chosen to complete the trio started by Greninja and Incinerator. Not all that big on modern Pokemon tbh, but I was into it a lot more than I give myself credit for when I was younger.
 
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dream1ng

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If Smash 6 arrives after Gen X I still think the promotional Pokemon is getting shifted from base to DLC so it lines up for, y'know, the Pokemon series. What actually matters to TPC is spotlighting the current gen at release.

I know it being unprecedented makes people think it won't happen, but the function of the inclusion is to showcase the gen contemporaneous to Smash's release. Previously they were able to do that with base inclusions because the timeframes lined up so Smash could take from a gen one year away and then launch during that same gen. People are looking to maintain the pattern but not factoring in why it happens in the first place.

With foresight that DLC will be happening from Sakurai's team, and knowledge of the timeframe of Gens 9 and 10 from TPC, I think they would simply allocate the saved spot from base into DLC. It's not like post-launch characters are any lesser; just because it hasn't been DLC doesn't inherently mean it can't be.

Including a Gen 9 no longer serves the purpose it would be included for in the first place if they already knew they would be on to a new group of characters by Smash's release. If base can't facilitate that but DLC can, I imagine that's the route TPC would want to take with their goal of current gen promotion.

Though Pokemon could still get a newcomer in base, I just don't think it would be one dictated by promotional schedule, meaning it could break the cycle of mandating a newest gen rep, knowing that was still assured for later.
 

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If Smash 6 arrives after Gen X I still think the promotional Pokemon is getting shifted from base to DLC so it lines up for, y'know, the Pokemon series. What actually matters to TPC is spotlighting the current gen at release.

I know it being unprecedented makes people think it won't happen, but the function of the inclusion is to showcase the gen contemporaneous to Smash's release. Previously they were able to do that with base inclusions because the timeframes lined up so Smash could take from a gen one year away and then launch during that same gen. People are looking to maintain the pattern but not factoring in why it happens in the first place.

With foresight that DLC will be happening from Sakurai's team, and knowledge of the timeframe of Gens 9 and 10 from TPC, I think they would simply allocate the saved spot from base into DLC. It's not like post-launch characters are any lesser; just because it hasn't been DLC doesn't inherently mean it can't be.

Including a Gen 9 no longer serves the purpose it would be included for in the first place if they already knew they would be on to a new group of characters by Smash's release. If base can't facilitate that but DLC can, I imagine that's the route TPC would want to take with their goal of current gen promotion.

Though Pokemon could still get a newcomer in base, I just don't think it would be one dictated by promotional schedule, meaning it could break the cycle of mandating a newest gen rep, knowing that was still assured for later.
I think if that's the case and Smash comes out AFTER Gen 10, we might just have a Greninja on our hands. We know for a fact Sakurai gets info on this stuff WELL in advance (he picked Greninja before it had a name), so realistically it probably depends on Smash's dev timeline or when Pokemon Company would approach him about Gen 10 because I doubt you'd just leave a "New Pokemon" spot that happens every game open for a majority of the development, and if it's already far enough along there may already be a Gen 9 Pokemon developed.
 

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Weird, yes, but not any weirder than Ridley being unable to fly freely imo (a sentiment Sakurai agreed with before adding him in Ultimate anyway :V).
It is weird indeed. His hunched model too, his awkward move set, and on top of that, this aerial immobility. It's not only Ridley, I felt this way about Charizard too. Expecially since the Smash 4 trailer showcasing Charizard being a standalone fighter. Just look at how he soars through the skies when fighting Mario! THAT'S how you do a Charizard.

Dragon Rush made it better, but shamefully that was only a Custom Move. I'd prefer if they merged the properties of Dragon Rush and Flare Blitz. That the regular move is Dragon Rush but only by holding B it becomes Flare Blitz. Seems like a better design to me.

Ridley however? Not a well designed fighter. Even the overall competitive performance proofs this. Not even functional in what he's supposed to do. Basically Melee Mewtwo version 3.5.
 
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dream1ng

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You completely lost me at the notion that Sakurai would plan ahead for DLC to make decisions for the base.
Ok. Though this has already happened. I'm sure Sakurai didn't just forget about the third-party costumes from 4 when bringing all the others back in base. The plan was to offer them again as DLC. And, I mean, Lloyd's wasn't re-released until the penultimate wave, deep into DLC.

Even past that, and with the benefit of retrospect, I believe the cost of securing Cloud for base to ensure EiH was providing another FF character as DLC with whom all the new supporting content could drop.

Regardless of that suspicion, I think this is nevertheless something that will only become more prevalent the further Smash shifts into a design of a more limited base and a more extended rollout of DLC. As the amount of the game which is DLC increases, the more it will be accounted for in earlier stages.

In fact, I think this is absolutely something the dev team will encounter when they approach the existing third-parties to relicense the characters. Whether that be through some third-parties being highly preferential to being DLC and the back-end that entails (likely the reason the third-party costumes were sold again), with Nintendo not dying on the hill of trying to replicate EiH and acquiescing to post-launch, or through them licensing, for instance, Sonic, Bayonetta and Joker at all once for expediency, but waiting until DLC to actually develop and drop some of them.

But if you don't believe some of these things are planned very far in advance, especially when the plan to have DLC now exists, presumably, from the beginning, I'm not going to convince you. That's fine.
 

GoldenYuiitusin

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Last I checked, Mii Costumes aren't part of the roster nor are they all planned out in the proposal unless you want to tell me he magically knew ARMS was going to exist to know to add a costume of Spring Man and Ribbon Girl?

You're right in that you're not going to convince me because none of the points presented make any damn sense.

Sakurai isn't going to, when the project proposal is being drafted, decide to plan out a fighter for DLC and make a decision based around that for the base.
It's completely asinine of an idea and I'm not going to entertain the idea any further than this post.
 

dream1ng

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I think if that's the case and Smash comes out AFTER Gen 10, we might just have a Greninja on our hands. We know for a fact Sakurai gets info on this stuff WELL in advance (he picked Greninja before it had a name), so realistically it probably depends on Smash's dev timeline or when Pokemon Company would approach him about Gen 10 because I doubt you'd just leave a "New Pokemon" spot that happens every game open for a majority of the development, and if it's already far enough along there may already be a Gen 9 Pokemon developed.
Like you said, it really depends on the actual timeframe of everything releasing. If Smash 6 and Gen X release a year apart, one one Q4 and the other the next Q4, for instance, if they wanted the Pokemon in the first wave, they would probably have a few months to gauge reception.

I mean, they'd still go with one of the pre-approved Pokemon TPC was promoting, but they'd potentially be able to factor in more than just purely design and moveset potential like the last couple.

But for the record, it wouldn't be like TPC would just leave Sakurai in the dark about their upcoming plans - Smash is a marketing tool that benefits them as well. When they were negotiating Pokemon content in the new game - which would occur before any actual development of the characters - obviously part of what would be spoken about is Smash 6's timeframe and how that lined up with where the Pokemon franchise was at that moment. That's how we get as-of-then unreleased characters in the first place.

If TPC wanted their promotional character but Gen X was too far away to fit into 6's base development window, yet was the Gen they knew would be current at the time it actually launched, the two parties may see fit to designate the placeholder for when it can be used.
 

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If TPC wanted their promotional character but Gen X was too far away to fit into 6's base development window, yet was the Gen they knew would be current at the time it actually launched, the two parties may see fit to designate the placeholder for when it can be used.
This is why I think whether or not the 2021/2022 project plan is Smash matters here though.

If Smash was being written up in 2021/2022 before SV even came out, let alone its expansions that would run through to December 2023, I don't think very much if anything would be planned at that time for Gen 10. Maybe the rough outline of first ideas, but definitely nothing substantial enough that it'd be able to get into Smash half a decade early.

If Smash is NOT that project plan though and started in like 2023, maybe early 2024, I could see Gen 10 actually have some solid ideas put together to potentially use in Smash at that stage of the game.
 
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The Stoopid Unikorn

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Like you said, it really depends on the actual timeframe of everything releasing. If Smash 6 and Gen X release a year apart, one one Q4 and the other the next Q4, for instance, if they wanted the Pokemon in the first wave, they would probably have a few months to gauge reception.

I mean, they'd still go with one of the pre-approved Pokemon TPC was promoting, but they'd potentially be able to factor in more than just purely design and moveset potential like the last couple.

But for the record, it wouldn't be like TPC would just leave Sakurai in the dark about their upcoming plans - Smash is a marketing tool that benefits them as well. When they were negotiating Pokemon content in the new game - which would occur before any actual development of the characters - obviously part of what would be spoken about is Smash 6's timeframe and how that lined up with where the Pokemon franchise was at that moment. That's how we get as-of-then unreleased characters in the first place.

If TPC wanted their promotional character but Gen X was too far away to fit into 6's base development window, yet was the Gen they knew would be current at the time it actually launched, the two parties may see fit to designate the placeholder for when it can be used.
Yeah but at that point, the planning could also happen around the time where they're already doing the final touches on the base game, like what happened with Fighters Pass 1.

This would not be a decision Sakurai would take on Day 1. It would be handled very late in development alongside all the DLC.

I know Pokémon has a reputation for being the only series in all of gaming with early bird privileges when Sakurai makes a roster but to assume Sakurai would spend entire years doing **** all about a planned Pokémon just to time it with a Gen release as DLC is a complete opposite of his work ethic of not touching DLC until the work on the game is done. (Not that I said the game being done, not the game being released, these are two different things)

You're basically going off on an assumption that Sakurai is outright lying to everyone about how he develops Smash to build this theory.
 
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dream1ng

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Last I checked, Mii Costumes aren't part of the roster nor are they all planned out in the proposal unless you want to tell me he magically knew ARMS was going to exist to know to add a costume of Spring Man and Ribbon Girl?
Sorry, I was replying to the post that said Sakurai wouldn't plan ahead for DLC to make decisions for the base.

You're right in that you're not going to convince me because none of the points presented make any damn sense.
Sakurai isn't going to, when the project proposal is being drafted, decide to plan out a fighter for DLC and make a decision based around that for the base.
It's completely asinine of an idea and I'm not going to entertain the idea any further than this post.
No, Sakurai wouldn't do that. TPC would do that. They would be the ones who want their newest gen represented at the time of release, and if in the conferring of series plans during the initial negotiation/discussion phase, they learn that is only achieved through DLC, then that very well may be what they ask of Sakurai.

And then why would he refuse? They're not asking more of him than usual, they're just moving something to better fit with their schedule. One that still aligns with Smash's schedule.

It's completely asinine of an idea and I'm not going to entertain the idea any further than this post.
Great, hope that extends into the next time I raise this belief.
 

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No, Sakurai wouldn't do that. TPC would do that. They would be the ones who want their newest gen represented at the time of release, and if in the conferring of series plans during the initial negotiation/discussion phase, they learn that is only achieved through DLC, then that very well may be what they ask of Sakurai.

And then why would he refuse? They're not asking more of him than usual, they're just moving something to better fit with their schedule. One that still aligns with Smash's schedule.
I guess with this bit I just don't understand like... If they find out Gen 10 would only be possible through DLC, why would they not just put in a Gen 9 Pokemon and then talk to Sakurai later about a Gen 10 Pokemon as DLC to double up?

And why wouldn't this "we have to represent our newest Generation" have been extended to Gen 8 in Ultimate rather than just a Spirit Event a week after Sword and Shield came out?
 
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