Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Hadokeyblade]

Not really because TvC gave Saki a moveset, something that alot of people use in favor for other Capcom characters, ESPECIALLY Pheonix Wright, who's MvC moveset is in turn used as a support for other characters like Ayumi or Layton. Mario Kart never gave R.O.B. a moveset.

I mean in Layton's case he canonically knows how to throw hands in his series.

He just doesn't do it unless he has no other options because he's more of a pacifist.

 

[CosmicEternity44]

Oh, I forgot to ask: How many of you think that the next Smash Bros. will have more time to add more unique characters, both in moveset and non-humanoid builds? It is based on this post I made earlier.

There is something I said about Ultimate not being a good follow up to the days of the Smash Ballot, but that was seemingly ignored and looked over, so I would like to go into more detail on that, if you don’t mind.

You see, as I said before, there were more humanoid characters and echoes (and a semi-clone) than those with original movesets and non-humanoid physiques, all in the base game. That said, the fact that “Everyone is Here” was a priority make it harder to use time and resources for not only more single player modes, but more original characters. I mean, Dixie Kong would likely have her own moveset rather than be a clone or echo, even though she could have been modeled after Diddy to an extent. Bandana Waddle Dee was non-humanoid, and I think it would have taken some significant time (not more than other characters, but still) to develop Bandana Waddle Dee and make a moveset for him. Then there’s Waluigi, who has a slender build that would probably be needed to be built from the ground up, not that it is a problem, but since he was an Assist Trophy in the past few games, it might have been easier to put him in that way, especially since he may have not been that much of a priority. There is also Isaac from Golden Sun, whose moveset might as well be wholly original, which the devs of Smash Bros. Ultimate did not have time for with the “Everyone is Here” thing.

And that is not counting the DLC, for while there were Banjo and Kazooie as well as Sora, both playable characters who all did well on the ballot and were second most voted and first most voted respectively, Banjo and Kazooie were technically humanoid, at least Banjo was, but they were a tag team character, so I don’t imagine that they were as easy to make as a normal, humanoid character. As for Sora, Sora basically was not going to be in Fighters Pass Two initially, from what I have read, until Sakurai met with those Disney reps. That said, it was said that Nintendo chose the DLC characters, so I don’t know how much control Sakurai had over that area. Even then, most of the characters that were DLC in Smash Bros. Ultimate were human/humanoid, so they were easier to work with.

But anyway, Ultimate was all after when the Ballot took place during Smash Bors. 4’s DLC period, and though many were wanted on that Ballot, Ultimate itself had focused on “Everyone is Here” as requested to Sakurai as last wish from Iwata, if I recall correctly. Point is, doing “Everyone is Here” for Ultimate took a lot of time and resources, so with fewer new characters in especially the base game, I personally don’t think Ultimate was the best way to follow up on the Ballot, especially in terms of adding more characters requested from the Ballot in the game that was created AFTER the ballot was finished.

 

[PersonAngelo53]

View attachment 400326
Bottom text

Has happened already in a mod funny enough lol. And he does have a few gameplay differences to normal Mario.

 

[Speed Weed]

My take on this situation is twofold:

As someone whose bulk of his most wanteds are niche third-parties, I would actually rather they keep that "surprise character" slot to Nintendo's own offerings, it's a neat little niche I'd hate to see go away

I also never quite got the surprise third-party talk and a lot of it feels to me like people making up ways in which their personal obscure favorites would get in....which I think is a flawed way of thinking because frankly with how wide the pool of "niche gaming characters" is, there's a very good chance whatever they end up picking would not be who you'd be thinking of

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I mean, wouldn't you be surprised they chose them over more popular MvC characters like Strider or Morrigan? Darkstalkers? Strider? F-Zero? What are those? From a different dimension?

You mean....exactly like Saki?

Not even quite sure what you're trying to argue here anymore.
The point is that there are a number of major Capcom characters in the running and to opt for a "surprise character" would be to opt for someone like Saki, a romancable option from a dating sim instead of one of those major characters. Just like how we got an original amalgam of dozens of random nameless characters from an LCD handheld series , a real-life peripheral used to play a pair of games with the player , an in-game assistant to the toy gun-wielding irl player teamed with the game's object of fire , and a recurring common enemy that serves as an obstacle .

To which the idea is that she's "less surprising" because she appears in other games like Tatsunoko vs. Capcom (which is actually the inspiration for why I used Saki as an example in the first place) and has a moveset.....while a counterexample is someone like Amingo (who I would have used as an example if Saki wasn't a better one to use to make the point) as a minor OC from Mahvel 2.....where he has a defined moveset from the onset....

All in all, several different points being made that aren't really meshing together and leading to a very strange back and forth where no one is on the same wavelength....

 

[Dukefire]

Oh, I forgot to ask: How many of you think that the next Smash Bros. will have more time to add more unique characters, both in moveset and non-humanoid builds? It is based on this post I made earlier.

If the team that was put together are reusing the same engine and character models, they might have more time to give characters their unique traits and personality. Though, it could be possible that some cuts will be done to save time and if some negotiations cannot be redone for them to return.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Oh, I forgot to ask: How many of you think that the next Smash Bros. will have more time to add more unique characters, both in moveset and non-humanoid builds? It is based on this post I made earlier.

I think the next Smash will add more unique newcomers than Ultimate did. I believe Ultimate focused on the series' history by bringing back every character and nearly every stage, so while I do think they'll still try and bring back as many veterans as are possible within the timeframe of development, there will be more of a focus on new content for the base game via newcomers and a fresh set of plenty of new stages.

As for non-humanoid builds, that's a bit harder. We could see a few, but it certainly won't be the majority I don't think.

 

[CosmicEternity44]

If the team that was put together are reusing the same engine and character models, they might have more time to give characters their unique traits and personality. Though, it could be possible that some cuts will be done to save time and if some negotiations cannot be redone for them to return.

I wasn't asking about cuts, but don't worry. I actually find the cuts thing to actually be a good idea in regards to saving time and all as you said.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I also never quite got the surprise third-party talk and a lot of it feels to me like people making up ways in which their personal obscure favorites would get in....which I think is a flawed way of thinking because frankly with how wide the pool of "niche gaming characters" is, there's a very good chance whatever they end up picking would not be who you'd be thinking of

I think it's kind of because as a general rule we won't really be seeing niche 3rd parties outside the classics (as in, the big names that are actually quite niche nowadays).

We do have Banjo and Bayo, but the former required several decades of support and the latter was pretty heavily tied to Nintendo already.

while a counterexample is someone like Amingo (who I would have used as an example if Saki wasn't a better one to use to make the point) as a minor OC from Mahvel 2.....

I know you said he's not as good an example, but if characters like Arthur don't count I don't think Amingo really counts either. Cactus man is a whacky concept, but it is a lot more coherent/fully formed compared to the minigame amalgam, the toy, the dog, and the venus flytrap.

 

[Will]

Hot take: Sephiroth was a third-party surprise pick.

I mean… were y’all not surprised? Nobody had this dude on their radar, and nobody anticipated that Nintendo’s team would have asked Sakurai to include him. The entire community had their jaw dropped.

 

[CosmicEternity44]

I think the next Smash will add more unique newcomers than Ultimate did. I believe Ultimate focused on the series' history by bringing back every character and nearly every stage, so while I do think they'll still try and bring back as many veterans as are possible within the timeframe of development, there will be more of a focus on new content for the base game via newcomers and a fresh set of plenty of new stages.

As for non-humanoid builds, that's a bit harder. We could see a few, but it certainly won't be the majority I don't think.

I was thinking a few too, actually. I mean, I didn't say a bunch of non-humanoid characters would be that likely, as I know how hard they can be. I just hope Bandana Dee is one of those new characters.

I also do agree with the other things you said as well. Like I said, Everyone is Here took a lot of time and resources, so I don't think they might be doing that again anytime soon, so there should be more room for more characters that are unique.

I just wanted to know others' opinions, if that was okay.

 

[Dukefire]

Hot take: Sephiroth was a third-party surprise pick.

I mean… were y’all not surprised? Nobody had this dude on their radar, and nobody anticipated that Nintendo’s team would have asked Sakurai to include him. The entire community had their jaw dropped.

Plus, that reveal was dropped on the Game Awards 2020.

 

[Gengar84]

There is something I said about Ultimate not being a good follow up to the days of the Smash Ballot, but that was seemingly ignored and looked over, so I would like to go into more detail on that, if you don’t mind.

You see, as I said before, there were more humanoid characters and echoes (and a semi-clone) than those with original movesets and non-humanoid physiques, all in the base game. That said, the fact that “Everyone is Here” was a priority make it harder to use time and resources for not only more single player modes, but more original characters. I mean, Dixie Kong would likely have her own moveset rather than be a clone or echo, even though she could have been modeled after Diddy to an extent. Bandana Waddle Dee was non-humanoid, and I think it would have taken some significant time (not more than other characters, but still) to develop Bandana Waddle Dee and make a moveset for him. Then there’s Waluigi, who has a slender build that would probably be needed to be built from the ground up, not that it is a problem, but since he was an Assist Trophy in the past few games, it might have been easier to put him in that way, especially since he may have not been that much of a priority. There is also Isaac from Golden Sun, whose moveset might as well be wholly original, which the devs of Smash Bros. Ultimate did not have time for with the “Everyone is Here” thing.

And that is not counting the DLC, for while there were Banjo and Kazooie as well as Sora, both playable characters who all did well on the ballot and were second most voted and first most voted respectively, Banjo and Kazooie were technically humanoid, at least Banjo was, but they were a tag team character, so I don’t imagine that they were as easy to make as a normal, humanoid character. As for Sora, Sora basically was not going to be in Fighters Pass Two initially, from what I have read, until Sakurai met with those Disney reps. That said, it was said that Nintendo chose the DLC characters, so I don’t know how much control Sakurai had over that area. Even then, most of the characters that were DLC in Smash Bros. Ultimate were human/humanoid, so they were easier to work with.

But anyway, Ultimate was all after when the Ballot took place during Smash Bors. 4’s DLC period, and though many were wanted on that Ballot, Ultimate itself had focused on “Everyone is Here” as requested to Sakurai as last wish from Iwata, if I recall correctly. Point is, doing “Everyone is Here” for Ultimate took a lot of time and resources, so with fewer new characters in especially the base game, I personally don’t think Ultimate was the best way to follow up on the Ballot, especially in terms of adding more characters requested from the Ballot in the game that was created AFTER the ballot was finished.

That’s possible. We probably would have seen more newcomers with a standard Smash game compared to Ultimate’s “Everyone is Here”. However, I think you might be missing something important. One of the main reasons Sakurai decided to go with EiH is because so many previously cut veterans were topping the ballot lists. I think Sakurai even stated this as one of the main reasons for bringing everyone back. So while we could have had more brand new characters with a more traditional Smash, I do think this was the best way to include as many popular ballot choices as they could in a reasonable way. The problem is that it likely set up unrealistic expectations for the future of the series and any cuts from here on are going to feel like a step back for a lot of fans.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Hot take: Sephiroth was a third-party surprise pick.

I mean… were y’all not surprised? Nobody had this dude on their radar, and nobody anticipated that Nintendo’s team would have asked Sakurai to include him. The entire community had their jaw dropped.

I mean he was certainly surprising, but in the same vein as Wii Fit Trainer, as opposed to literally being conceived as "This character is this game's surprise character" like Sakurai said outright about Duck Hunt in his project plan lol

 

[CosmicEternity44]

That’s possible. We probably would have seen more newcomers with a standard Smash game compared to Ultimate’s “Everyone is Here”. However, I think you might be missing something important. One of the main reasons Sakurai decided to go with EiH is because so many previously cut veterans were topping the ballot lists. I think Sakurai even stated this as one of the main reasons for bringing everyone back. So while we could have had more brand new characters with a more traditional Smash, I do think this was the best way to include as many popular ballot choices as they could in a reasonable way. The problem is that it likely set up unrealistic expectations for the future of the series and any cuts from here on are going to feel like a step back for a lot of fans.

I see what you mean. Thanks for pointing that out. I know I voted for a cut veteran on the ballot myself, so I am surprised I missed that.

Still, now that "Everyone is Here" is done, I do not think there could be much trouble adding more unique newcomers, which may include some cuts, which I don't mind.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I know you said he's not as good an example, but if characters like Arthur don't count I don't think Amingo really counts either. Cactus man is a whacky concept, but it is a lot more coherent/fully formed compared to the minigame amalgam, the toy, the dog, and the venus flytrap.

Arthur isn't a good example because he's literally the main protagonist of the franchise. The typical "hero" type that Sakurai was talking about examples that deviate from. Has nothing to do with how "coherent/fully formed" he is.

Amingo is an example of the opposite; he's just some random original character that shows up and has no bearing on the plot (to which Ruby Heart is actually not an example as she's in-story supposed to be how all these characters are meeting up to deal with the threat of Abyss; she's meant to be the main heroine).

 

[Will]

I mean he was certainly surprising, but in the same vein as Wii Fit Trainer, as opposed to literally being conceived as "This character is this game's surprise character" like Sakurai said outright about Duck Hunt in his project plan lol

I agree to an extent. Though, aren’t Duck Hunt and Plant a mutually exclusive club where they were planned as a surprise?

edit: i forgor game and watch and rob

A third party character of that equivalent would have to be something Sakurai was inspired to create. And that’s a huge guessing game based on what he’s recently played. Could be anything from Bubble Bobble to Elden Ring… to FNAF

 

[HyperSomari64]

A third party character of that equivalent would have to be something Sakurai was inspired to create. And that’s a huge guessing game based on what he’s recently played. Could be anything from Bubble Bobble to Elden Ring.

Bub & Bob (the bubble dragons) can be assist trophies.

 

[Ivander]

You mean....exactly like Saki?
View attachment 400329


Not even quite sure what you're trying to argue here anymore.

Who (else) said I was arguing and not being sassy?

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Who (else) said I was arguing and not being sassy?

I'm onto you now.....

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Arthur isn't a good example because he's literally the main protagonist of the franchise. The typical "hero" type that Sakurai was talking about examples that deviate from. Has nothing to do with how "coherent/fully formed" he is.

Amingo is an example of the opposite; he's just some random original character that shows up and has no bearing on the plot (to which Ruby Heart is actually not an example as she's in-story supposed to be how all these characters are meeting up to deal with the threat of Abyss).

I honestly don't think protagonist status matters at all here. It's conceptual. Not being the "standard hero type" is about more than just plot, otherwise Steve would be a surprise character on account of Minecraft not having one. Surprise characters are meant to introduce variety into the cast, and when "normal" cast members have "tiny man who throws carrots at you", "monochrome fitness coach", and "a literal balloon animal that sings", you kinda have to go pretty far with your concepts or where you pull them from to actually meet that criteria. That's why the previous surprise picks are so abstract.

I do suppose that Arthur is a bad example anyway though since with the rate we're getting NES classic characters, we're probably going to get him at some point...In fact I think it's just him and Ryu that are left unless I'm forgetting something (that isn't 4th party like Duck Tales). Similarly for Amingo, he may be a pretty random addition to MvC2's cast, but giving MvC a character isn't super out there, and as one of 3 viable picks in the famously 3v3 series, he's kind of a given should they decide to go for it.

 

[Perkilator]

Would Goku count as a surprise character?

N-no, wait, hold on; not that Goku.

This Goku.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

I do suppose that Arthur is a bad example anyway though since with the rate we're getting NES classic characters, we're probably going to get him at some point...In fact I think it's just him and Ryu that are left unless I'm forgetting something (that isn't 4th party like Duck Tales).

The Battletoads want a word with you.

 

[BrawlX10]

So i just remembered Stage Morph exists. Do you guys think this mechanic will return in Smash 6? It feels like it's kinda forgotten and might get in the way of potential complex new stages.

 

[Perkilator]

So i just remembered Stage Morph exists. Do you guys think this mechanic will return in Smash 6? It feels like it's kinda forgotten and might get in the way of potential complex new stages.

I personally don’t want to see it in h the next game, and I don’t really feel explaining why.

 

[Ivander]

Would Goku count as a surprise character?

N-no, wait, hold on; not that Goku.
View attachment 400333
This Goku.

I've said it before.

How about we put....This Goku in Smash!

We make Nintendo's Goku an Echo Fighter of Goku!

Then make Goku III an Alternate Costume for Capcom's Goku!

So we get Three Gokus in Smash Bros!

 

[DynamicSmasher]

Oh, I forgot to ask: How many of you think that the next Smash Bros. will have more time to add more unique characters, both in moveset and non-humanoid builds? It is based on this post I made earlier.

I think ultimately, the number of non-humanoids will depend first and foremost on how many characters of such a description catch Sakurai's eye. If the Inklings had been squids with no humanoid forms and Splatoon still did as well as it did in reality, there's no question that we'd have a giant squid running around. The issue is how many popular characters are non-humanoids?
Out of the Gen 9 Pokemon that I think might have a chance(mostly some of the more popular/pushed ones and the starters), there's Skeledirge and Clodsire, while most of the rest(Meowscarada, Quaquaval, Ceruledge, Armorouge, Tinkaton) are more humanoid, to various extents.
Spyro could be cool, but being Western puts him at a disadvantage- especially since he's not as relevant as he was in the 90s.
Amaterasu from Okami could be possible. Especially with her game getting a possible sequel(?) soon.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

That's literally like saying R.O.B. would be less of a surprise character just because he made appearances in other games, including Mario Kart DS as a racer.

And yet he's Brawl's token "surprise character".


Or the whole debate on Duck Hunt vs. Wii Fit Trainer because people did discuss the Dog while the Trainer never came up in discussion until her reveal. And yet Duck Hunt was the token "surprise character" of For, not Wii Fit Trainer.

Gotta love how, despite actual evidence of Duck Hunt explicitly told to be the surprise character (we did get a peek at some of Smash 4's project plan, right?), there are still people who think Wii Fit Trainer was the token surprise character.

There's neither debate nor speculation here. Duck Hunt being the surprise is an objective fact.

 

[ninjahmos]

Would Excitebiker count as a surprise character?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I'm just gonna drop this because I do feel like that really captures the essence of what a "surprise character" is.

If I were to define what a "surprise character" is, it would simply be someone that the general audience would never EVER expect to see a moveset made for. And that kind of definition does match with most of the people who are or presumed to be the surprise characters of their games.

• Outside of very specific games like Donkey Kong, the Game & Watch games do not have any predefined character so the idea of some kind of conglomerate who references various games came completely out of left field. In a way, Mr. Game & Watch is effectively a Smash OC.
• R.O.B. is a NES peripheral. The idea of him getting a fully realized moveset was not something anyone expected.
• Duck Hunt was explicitly stated to be a surprise character and, well, the concept behind everything is certainly wacky and unpredictable. You play as the dog and a duck in cooperation, something that never happens in Duck Hunt, and there's also the invisible NES Zapper hunter as well as references to both Hoogan's Alley and Wild Gunman. Even for those who expected Duck Hunt Dog, I doubt the idea of being the representative of multiple Zapper games or the duck coming along for the ride as a friend were expected.
• Piranha Plant needs no description.

Wii Fit Trainer isn't confirmed to be a surprise character nor is she confirmed to be the opposite, but a moveset themed entirely around the exercise drills she'd make you do is very inspired and creative either way. I personally see her more as a representative of the Wii series, being one of the few actual characters from it who isn't just a Mii, since new franchises tend to get some spots in Smash rosters since Brawl. Being surprising was not the intent.

 

[Speed Weed]

I do suppose that Arthur is a bad example anyway though since with the rate we're getting NES classic characters, we're probably going to get him at some point...In fact I think it's just him and Ryu that are left unless I'm forgetting something (that isn't 4th party like Duck Tales).

If we expand things to a JP standpoint then Kunio is a huge one IMO

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Would Excitebiker count as a surprise character?

In a post-Bowser Jr. world, the idea of a character fighting while riding a vehicle isn't really all that surprising.

It could certainly be surprising to see Excitebiker but they would not be the surprise. If that makes sense.

 

[Gorgonzales]

So i just remembered Stage Morph exists. Do you guys think this mechanic will return in Smash 6? It feels like it's kinda forgotten and might get in the way of potential complex new stages.

I don't hate it but I could do without it if it means we get more dynamic stages and/or more development time for new stages as a whole.

 

[fogbadge]

I personally don’t want to see it in h the next game, and I don’t really feel explaining why.

oh you tease

 

[PeridotGX]

So i just remembered Stage Morph exists. Do you guys think this mechanic will return in Smash 6? It feels like it's kinda forgotten and might get in the way of potential complex new stages.

I don't really see a reason to remove it, it's a fun bonus thing that probably didn't take much dev time. If there's a stage that doesn't work with it (like Jungle Hijinx presumably was), they could simply prevent the stage from being picked in Stage Morph (custom stages can't be used in Stage Morph so there's a precedent).

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I don't really see a reason to remove it, it's a fun bonus thing that probably didn't take much dev time. If there's a stage that doesn't work with it (like Jungle Hijinx presumably was), they could simply prevent the stage from being picked in Stage Morph (custom stages can't be used in Stage Morph so there's a precedent).

Given how it works, it strikes me one of those "easy in theory, but keeps playing glitchy whack-a-mole with you" kind of ideas.

 

[Potted Plant]

I mean in Layton's case he canonically knows how to throw hands in his series.

He just doesn't do it unless he has no other options because he's more of a pacifist.

Layton mentioned.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1miBuRP0LYgHBUU7_4b9KDfJoi8w-q3cMt2jvhLWIdoA/edit?usp=sharing

 

[HyperSomari64]

Professor Pumpkaboo, we are going into a Layton talk

 

[DemifiendEnjoyer]

I hope if Cash Banooca ever actually gets into Smash, That they use (OBJECTIVELY) his best design, The clickbait design they used on the box art for a lot of the games in Japan to make people think he was cuter. When in the actual game he looks exactly as he does usually.
I mean like, The Smash team is in Japan, And this was how Crash was known to look in Japan up until 2020, I think if he made it into Ultimate there’s a chance he would have used this look.
I just think he’s cute.

Japanese Crash

Japanese Crash refers to the localized version of Crash Bandicoot for Japanese audiences. Though Crash has received numerous design changes throughout the series, Japanese Crash's design has remained consistent since Warped's Box Art, with only minor differences. While Japanese Crash appears on...

crashbandicoot.fandom.com

 

[KingofPhantoms]

The funny thing is that there will be one 4chan leak that will be legit. It'll be the one leak that everyone overlooks and gets absolutely no traction. That's what always ends up happening.

For example:

Honestly, this doesn't even surprise me that much. Still kind of funny, though.

With that said, I think the real problem with leaks like this and, admittedly, this can just be said about leaks and rumors in general, is that there's just too ****ing many of them.

No matter where they're first posted about, whether they consist of legitimate information or are blatantly fake, or otherwise an insanely well-made fake, there are so many leaks and rumors out there, and especially fake ones that tons of them are bound to slip through the cracks. It doesn't surprise me that at least one fully legitimate leak in SSB history largely got lost among the abundance of fake ones (not to mention the Grinch leak was what the fandom was focused on at the time).

If another leak like this happens for the next Smash game and escapes notice, it is what it is. At least the game's final few characters will be largely still be a surprise. I can't speak for everyone, but I'll personally take that over people constantly regurgitating the fact that Erdrick/Hero was 100,000,000% confirmed to be one of Ultimate's DLC newcomers and being both completely unsuprirsed and utterly bored by Hero's reveal trailer as a result.