Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Remember that MK is still barred from sale in Japan because NRS refuses to do toned down versions to meet even a Z rating for CERO.

There. Keeping you grounded in reality. :V

bottom text of relief

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Scorpion and Sub Zero are some of the few characters a lot of circles still write off as impossible, so it's cool to see them getting love here.

Between the two, although I feel like Scorpion is the probable choice and my personal fav, I'd just as much love it if they found a way to incorporate both, as it's like having chocolate without peanut butter. If they wanna stretch the echo rule to incorporate different specials, or classify them as semi clones and let them share a lot of normals as in classic mk, I'm more than down. If the other FGC characters can make their way back, it'll be a crossover of the ages.

It's extremely difficult to imagine them as base game 3rd parties, but honestly, it isn't impossible, even if a pipe dream.

 

[cashregister9]

Re: Indie Games

The take of whether or not an indie game has to still be relevant seems like an unnecessary stipulation that is only is applied to indie games nowadays. It seems especially weird after Banjo was added and the years of Geno speculation (Yes those are different due to their connections to Nintendo)

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Re: Indie Games

The take of whether or not an indie game has to still be relevant seems like an unnecessary stipulation that is only is applied to indie games nowadays. It seems especially weird after Banjo was added and the years of Geno speculation (Yes those are different due to their connections to Nintendo)

You didn't need to add the bolded part. Now people are gonna use that to try and shut down your entire point.

Indie games are still games at the end of the day, so I don't see why they should be excluded. The fact that indie games have content at all in Ultimate shows that Nintendo and Sakurai recognize their impact and importance. A far cry from Wii era Nintendo claiming indie games weren't real games.

Heck, Minecraft started as an indie game before Microsoft bought out Mojang so while it's technically not indie anymore, it's still the most notable indie game of all time and was a much bigger cultural phenomenon than even most games made by big companies.

 

[DarthEnderX]

does the phrase fourth-party make much sense?

As long as people understand what you mean, the term is useful. Even if it is a misnomer.

In language, common usage = definition. It makes sense to the Smash community, and that's what matters.

people just use it despite the illogical nature of it just because "herp one step further from characters from non-Nintendo game derp".

People use it because it's easier than saying "character originating from a non-video game property".

 

[PersonAngelo53]

Since we are in the topic of Sub-Zero and Mortal Kombat in smash I just leave this here. Only thing I would change from this mod is if every time Sub-Zero froze someone the freezing animation would look closer to how it looks in mortal Kombat instead of the generic freezing block we have in smash for any time someone gets frozen.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Yeah, I just love ice powers and Sub-Zero was always fun to use. Blue is also my favorite color and he was even voiced by one of my favorite actors at one point in Steve Blum. Scorpion is cool too but I’ll always be a Sub-Zero guy.

But Scorpion has a hook shot and a teleport. Think of the recovery!

I just thought of something: Sm4sh ended with 58 fighters after DLC, and Ultimate launched with 76 fighters (including Echoes) before DLC. Therefore, I think a reasonable balance for the next game would be to launch with about 67 fighters.

I don't think Smash will launch with less Fighters than Ultimate. So at least 69(not including Echoes).

I feel like this only helps and a MK character has a real shot.

Well, yeah. Because all of WB's other game franchises are 4P.

 

[Gengar84]

But Scorpion has a hook shot and a teleport. Think of the recovery!

I don't think Smash will launch with less Fighters than Ultimate. So at least 69(not including Echoes).

Well, yeah. Because all of WB's other game franchises are 4P.

I like the ice clone as Sub-Zero’s recovery. He can do a big jump and leave the clone where he started just like in MK3 but extend the height of the jump so it can work as a recovery in Snash.

 

[Louie G.]

The introduction of a proper "indie" character into Smash is a matter of "when" rather than "if" to me. Since 2014 the series has been taking progressive strides toward being more inclusive to the indie market, a sect of the gaming industry that has only grown in visibility / credibility. It's only a matter of time until one of the many incredibly popular, critically acclaimed indie titles of the last 10+ years stumbles its way into Smash the same way any other prestige series would. I don't see Nintendo and especially not Sakurai holding any sort of stigma against them off an arbitrary label.

A little healthy skepticism is fine, though. It's true, it hasn't happened yet and sometimes it's safer to err on the side of the status quo. But in my opinion, the addition of a character like Sans or Zagreus or Shantae or whoever isn't that much of a status quo shift in the first place. They're popular characters from popular games... no more or less fitting than Joker or Banjo or Terry or whoever at this point. It's better if we just judge them on an individual basis.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

The introduction of a proper "indie" character into Smash is a matter of "when" rather than "if" to me. Since 2014 the series has been taking progressive strides toward being more inclusive to the indie market, a sect of the gaming industry that has only grown in visibility / credibility. It's only a matter of time until one of the many incredibly popular, critically acclaimed indie titles of the last 10+ years stumbles its way into Smash the same way any other prestige series would. I don't see Nintendo and especially not Sakurai holding any sort of stigma against them off an arbitrary label.

A little healthy skepticism is fine, though. It's true, it hasn't happened yet and sometimes it's safer to err on the side of the status quo. But in my opinion, the addition of a character like Sans or Zagreus or Shantae or whoever isn't that much of a status quo shift in the first place. They're popular characters from popular games... no more or less fitting than Joker or Banjo or Terry or whoever at this point. It's better if we just judge them on an individual basis.

-clear throat-

Amogus.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

-clear throat-

Amogus.

Finally, the ability to play as Sakurai's cat in Smash...

 

[Gengar84]

I just watched a short voice actor trailer for the Trails in the Sky remake and it’s got a lot of big name actors (Stephanie Sheh, Johnny Yong Bosch, Michelle Ruff, Christina Vee and others). The cast reminds me a lot of Bleach’s English anime cast, which I really liked back in the day.

 

[DynamicSmasher]

Finally, the ability to play as Sakurai's cat in Smash...

Cat speculation, huh?Reminds me of the old days where people speculated based on the colours Sakurai had on his back wall.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Cat speculation, huh?Reminds me of the old days where people speculated based on the colours Sakurai had on his back wall.

Remember the chairs?

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Remember the chairs?

If Skull Kid or Waluigi does get in, it'd be a good bit if Sakurai was sitting in one of those chairs while he talks about them.

 

[Gengar84]

I would say all the chair speculation was silly but I’m guilty of thinking his hand gesture for Byleth might have meant that we were getting the Battletoads. He held up what looked like the number 3 and my mind went to “what famous trios are there in games?” and all I could think of was the Battletoads. I guess that’s one downside of having too much wishful thinking lol. I don’t have much room to criticize.

 

[Shinuto]

That is still the sterotype and fan rule Indie Characters face. Until ONE becomes a fighter, people disregard them as runner up.
View attachment 399993
That will change once indie character(s) join the fighter status.


Also, if you didn't know or not. Yacht Club Games is technically the younger brother of Wayforward. Some staff originate from WF before moving on with their own company.

Who's that character?

 

[Shinuto]

Since we are in the topic of Sub-Zero and Mortal Kombat in smash I just leave this here. Only thing I would change from this mod is if every time Sub-Zero froze someone the freezing animation would look closer to how it looks in mortal Kombat instead of the generic freezing block we have in smash for any time someone gets frozen.

God these animations for subzero look like ass and I know it's not the fan mod that's just how MK looks.

 

[Ivander]

Remember the chairs?

Purple and yellow? Chairs? Echoes of Wisdom Zelda confirmed for next Smash!

 

[PersonAngelo53]

God these animations for subzero look like ass and I know it's not the fan mod that's just how MK looks.

Lol is a similar case with like Steve. For some games Sakurai would probably make the animations look bad or mediocre on purpose if the character is known to be in that animation style in their game.

 

[Gengar84]

Looks like we might finally be getting something Chrono Trigger related after who knows how long? While I’d absolutely love a new game or HD remake, I’d settle for at least being able to play the original game on modern consoles. Hopefully they have something cool planned for their 30th anniversary. I’m still hoping we can someday see a Chrono character in Smash.

I might as well use this as an excuse to share my Magus moveset again just to keep it Smash related:

Spoiler

Gimmicks and other Traits

Magus floats for his running animation similar to Sephiroth and teleports for his dodge roll. Magus has a similar tipper mechanic to Marth where most of the damage from his scythe attacks is caused by the tip rather than the handle. Magus also has a float jump similar to Princess Peach, but he gradually descends rather than floats at the same altitude. Most of Magus’ attributes are very similar to Sephiroth.

Weak attacks

Jab: Magus holds his hand forward and zaps the opponent with two small shocks followed by a final more powerful blast.

Forward Tilt: Magus swings his scythe horizontally and catches any opponent it connects with. He then scrapes his scythe across the ground, dragging the opponent before sending them flying in the opposite direction.

Up Tilt: Magus pokes his scythe upward and hits the opponent with the spike on the top

Down Tilt: Magus performs a low sweep across the ground with his scythe.

Smash Attacks

Up Smash – Geyser – Magus summons a pillar of light at roughly the height of Palutena’s up smash and unleashes several spirits that fly upwards and damage enemies. This attack doesn’t have much knockback but it has very good range.

Down Smash: Magus slams the handle of his scythe into the ground.

Forward Smash: Magus throws his scythe forwards, causing it to spin around and return to him, similar to Pyra’s forward special.

Specials

Neutral Special – Fire/Lighting/Ice – Magus’ neutral special rotates on a cycle between three different attacks.

• For his fire special, Magus creates a pillar of flame a short distance in front of him at about one and a half times his height that can trap opponents and causes steady residual damage similar to Ness’ PK Fire.
• Magus’ Lightning special summons a bolt of electricity horizontally from his hand that travels a long distance across the stage. This causes light damage but is capable of stunning opponents at high percentages.
• Finally Magus’ Ice special summons a giant chunk of ice that travels diagonally downwards and crashes into the ground at a medium distance from him. This attack causes a lot of damage and can freeze opponents at high percentages.

Up Special - Black Hole – Magus creates a small black hole, and teleports away at a similar distance to Zelda’s teleport, creating an exit point where he emerges. This would then function like the Stage Builder warp points. The black hole would remain on the battlefield for a short time or until Magus uses another up special.

Down Special – Dark Mist – Magus unleashes a wave of dark mist that covers a wide horizontal area across the ground. This would function a lot like Palutena’s Heavenly Light custom special in that it does not cause any flinching or knockback but damages anyone caught in the mist.

Side Special – Dark Bomb – Magus sends out a glowing ball of energy that he can slightly control the trajectory of similar to Zelda’s Din’s Fire move which then detonates into an sphere of negative energy that deals heavy damage and knockback.

Running Attack

Magus swings his scythe upwards

Aerials

Neutral Air: Magus holds his arms outstretched and surrounds himself in dark energy similar to Mewtwo’s neutral air.

Up Air: Magus swings his scythe in an arc above him similar to Sephiroth.

Forward Air: Magus swings his scythe diagonally downwards and catches opponents whom he flings backwards.

Back Air: Magus stabs backward with the handle of his scythe.

Down Air: Magus jabs downards with the spike at the end of his scythe which can spike opponents.

Throws

Grab and Pummel: Magus traps his opponents in a sphere of dark energy and electrifies it as a pummel.

Up Throw: Magus throws the orb upwards causing it to explode and the opponent to go flying outward.

Down Throw: Magus slams the orb into the ground which causes it to explode.

Forward Throw: Magus propels the orb forward and tosses his scythe through it like a javelin, causing it to explode.

Back Throw: Magus teleports the orb behind him, causing it to explode.

Final Smash

Final Smash – Dark Matter – This is based on Magus’ most powerful skill in Chrono Trigger. Magus envelops the opponent in darkness with his cape. This starts out a lot like Meta Knight’s final Smash. It then transports anyone caught to a cutscene that causes massive damage to each of these opponents with a massive spinning triangle of dark energy.

Taunts

Taunt 1 – Magus crosses his arms and floats upwards as he says “The black wind howls.”

Taunt 2 – Magus tightens his glove as his says “Do you hear that? It’s the sound of the reaper.”

Taunt 3 – Magus’ scythe circles around him, floating in the air.

Victory Quotes

“Nothing can live forever.”

“The weak always strive to be weaker.”

“You got whacked ‘cuz you’re weak.”

 

[Dukefire]

Who's that character?

From The Red Ranger Becomes an Adventurer in Another World. Her name is Princess Teltina Liz Wagrel Alvarost

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I still think Shantae is the best choice for an indie character from a moveset standpoint, she's got so much going for her in that regard they could do anything and it could be fun.

I think the main thing stopping her is that some people may be really annoying about including her.

From The Red Ranger Becomes an Adventurer in Another World. Her name is Princess Teltina Liz Wagrel Alvarost

A future Super robot wars party member.

 

[SharkLord]

I think the biggest challenge facing Indies is that they tend to be a little transient in terms of their relevancy and popularity, which is a big problem for a third party.

Third parties tend to be long-established names that have endured in the public consciousness for about 2 decades prior to being added. If you can only have a dozen or so characters from across the entirety of gaming that isn't Nintendo, you may as well make sure it's a character has proven to be remembered and influential. , , and are the exceptions, but Bayo is a honourary Nintendo franchise, Joker is the lead of the most popular entry from a 28 year-old series, and Minecraft is so massive that it already has a lot of legacy.

In contrast, Indie character tend to be one-offs rather than being from massive franchises, which causes them to kind of come and go. Super Meat Boy and Castle Crashers used to be the face of Indie games, but they're not nearly as popular as they are now.

You can even see this in Smash, to an extent. Sakurai made a big deal in one of his PotDs about an Indie character getting a trophy in Smash. That character was Bit.trip Runner, which isn't actually what would excite audiences in 2025 and beyond.

Shantae and Sans seem to be in the best spot in this regard, as Shantae has been receiving new entries for about 15 years now and Undertale is still remembered fondly 10 years after being released. However, even they aren't as massive as they were in the late 2010s, with games like Balatro and Hades now being seen as the face of Indie gaming.

I will add that Hades has gotten a sequel in early access, which goes a long way in cementing its staying power. Nintendo also personally published its Switch port, which shows a surprisingly high level of confidence on their part.

There's also Touhou for longstanding relevance - First game was officially released in 1997, hit its stride in 2002 - But we've already gone over Reimu's circumstances and why her chances are iffy.

 

[PeridotGX]

Last night i had a dream they added Girafarig to Smash. How would we feel about that becoming reality?

 

[fogbadge]

Last night i had a dream they added Girafarig to Smash. How would we feel about that becoming reality?
View attachment 400018

fun

 

[BrawlX10]

I say this idea of indie characters not being capable enough to be appropriate to deserve playable status is ridiculous given the merit and success indie titles have seen in recent years especially considering the larger amount of AAA game slop that has come out more and more. Indies are proof you don't need big money or studios to make a fantastic well received title that touches the hearts of millions of players. Indies have more than earned a spot on Smash's legendary roster.

I think indie IPs like Touhou, Undertale, Hollow Knight, Hades, Shovel Knight, Cuphead have definitely earned a spot to be playable, but i don't think every indie character under the sun should be playable either, like i don't think they should add obscure indie characters as playable characters, , honestly, those are better suited as ATs and Mii Costumes or for indie platform fighters like Fraymakers.

 

[Will]

My take on the most likely indie character:

Foot has already been halfway through the door. We’re not obligated to upgrade Sans, and Deltarune will continue to have support for the next few years. Kris has got what it takes.

Okay, I’ve said my spiel. You can maul me to death now.

 

[Shinuto]

My take on the most likely indie character:

View attachment 400019

Foot has already been halfway through the door. We’re not obligated to upgrade Sans, and Deltarune will continue to have support for the next few years. Kris has got what it takes.

Okay, I’ve said my spiel. You can maul me to death now.

Dude the game isn't even done yet, it's not even done baking in the oven

 

[Gengar84]

I haven’t played a ton of indie games and I only played Brawlhala for a week or so but I think Mako would be an awesome Smash character for his design alone. I just think playing as a brutal looking shark warrior would be really cool.

 

[Will]

Dude the game isn't even done yet, it's not even done baking in the oven

Dude, don’t say that when he’s in the room.

 

[Dukefire]

I still think Shantae is the best choice for an indie character from a moveset standpoint, she's got so much going for her in that regard they could do anything and it could be fun.

I think the main thing stopping her is that some people may be really annoying about including her.

She's a Half Genie belly dancer with a tomboyish attitude. Plus, she has moves from her GBC origins via equipment.

Also, yes some people can be annoying that some don't want her out of spite. Fanbases always have the good and bad side.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Also, yes some people can be annoying that some don't want her out of spite.

I DO want Shantae. I just don't think she's an indie character.

 

[Undella2]

She's a Half Genie belly dancer with a tomboyish attitude. Plus, she has moves from her GBC origins via equipment.

Also, yes some people can be annoying that some don't want her out of spite. Fanbases always have the good and bad side.

Why would someone specifically not want Shantae? Like, I don't particularly care for / have any connection to the series, but if she was added, I'd be pleased to see indie reps get a foot in the door, so to speak.

-clear throat-

Amogus.

Unironically I'd think it'd be really funny to see an imposter as an assist trophy or something in the next game.

 

[DynamicSmasher]

She's a Half Genie belly dancer with a tomboyish attitude. Plus, she has moves from her GBC origins via equipment.

Also, yes some people can be annoying that some don't want her out of spite. Fanbases always have the good and bad side.

Yeah. If the devs want Shantae in, then she'll get in. Wayforward is seemingly something of a trusted developer by Nintendo(they were entrusted with the Advance Wars remake), but I don't think WF has enough sway to really influence Nintendo on a corporate level, so if she does get in, then it would probably be for other reasons. like fan demand, or Sakurai thinking she would be a fun character.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

Fanbases always have the good and bad side.

Basically one of the reason why suggestions from series like Undertale and pre-DLC Minecraft aren’t taken as seriously.

Fortnite to a lesser extent.

 

[Gengar84]

Basically one of the reason why suggestions from series like Undertale and pre-DLC Minecraft aren’t taken as seriously.

Fortnite to a lesser extent.

I’m not sure Smash fans have any room to criticize other fanbases considering all that’s happened.

 

[BrawlX10]

Basically one of the reason why suggestions from series like Undertale and pre-DLC Minecraft aren’t taken as seriously.

Fortnite to a lesser extent.

I could honestly see Fortnite getting a rep, if not a rep i think a item on the base game is definitely possible, Impulse Grenades would be my pick for a Fortnite item. It would launch a character without dealing damage, could make for some sick off-stage clips at least, maybe could be used as a recovery as well.

Also now that Fortnite OG exists, they can add a iconic stage like Tilted Towers that is currently playable in Fortnite (even if it's on a "side" mode), as well.

 

[Gengar84]

I’m okay with a Fortnite character. My only real issue is that Jonesy is just kind of boring looking in my opinion. That and I prefer characters with deeper personalities. If the character is fun to play and lots of other people would be happy with their inclusion, that’s all that matters.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I still think Shantae is the best choice for an indie character from a moveset standpoint, she's got so much going for her in that regard they could do anything and it could be fun.

By that same margin I feel the exact same way about Peppino.

He just feels like a perfect fit for Smash that the only conceivable issue is trying to translate his animations into a 3D model while still feeling like the source material.