Official Ask Anyone Frame Things Thread

[Deleted member 212841]

fihehoollllmm

 

[tauKhan]

What happens to latent knockback momentum during techroll animations? Is it replaced once the character starts actually moving or do the two stack? It looks like the latter to me but I honestly can't tell.

Kb velocity and normal velocity stay independent and stack like they always do, rolling just prevents falling off. AFAIK kb velocity deteriorates by ground friction during the roll.

 

[Sycorax]

So sheik's upb has 2 jumps right. The first jump takes sheik adjacent to ledge (right next to the fox hanging on it). Then the sheik poofs, and points directly towards ledge (making sheik not move at all since he's already adjacent to ledge). The fox is trying to find the best time to do a ledge stand so he can both dodge the poof hitbox, and prevent sheik from hanging to the ledge (if such a timing exists...)

If Sheik is close enough to hit Fox with the up-b poof and she angles directly horizontal so as to hit the wall and appear before falling to grab it, and then Fox neutral stands late enough, he'll both avoid the hitbox and prevent Sheik from grabbing the ledge.

What happens to latent knockback momentum during techroll animations? Is it replaced once the character starts actually moving or do the two stack? It looks like the latter to me but I honestly can't tell.

They technically stack, but by the end of the roll your character velocity is zero and you usually have leftover KB velocity. They don't cancel each other out. It's just that you stay on stage for longer while your total velocity depreciates at the rate of your character's ground friction.

AFAIK kb velocity deteriorates by ground friction during the roll.

I double checked this. It's true.

 

[Army805]

When looking into preventing amsah techs on wobble finishers, I was given the information that after a certain % depending on weight/fallspeed etc it is impossible to amsah tech. Can someone explain to me why % matters when amsah teching? I think it's just because I don't understand fully of the mechanics of how ASDI'ing down + lowest reg DI trajectory forces a knockdown. Im under the impression that you get hit, then the ASDI brings you slightly down then knockback happens and bc you have the lowest trajectory DI you'll get sent in that direction then fall and hit the ground way sooner. What if you have multiple regular SDI inputs down so that you hit the ground, does this force you into a techable state before knockback happens? I'm assuming not but might as well ask. Also, i'm confused as to the mechanics as to why you just stay grounded essentially after the flinch when you ASDI down jabs lets say for example at mid %. If ASDI happens in the last frames of hitlag, then wouldn't your character model move down a bit then take regular knockback after and shouldn't be grounded? For regular CC the knockback gets reduced, but this same question applies. How exactly do these mechanics work? I understand how to use ASDI down/CC obviously but don't know the mechanics behind it and i'm the type of person to wanna completely know why the physics works that way.

 

[Sycorax]

Can someone explain to me why % matters when amsah teching?

ASDI movement is combined with the knockback on the first frame of hitstun. ASDI down moves you down. The knockback of the move moves you up (as well as to the side. Component vectors). If the movement of the knockback is greater than the movement of the ASDI, you won't collide with the ground. At higher percents, knockback is greater. Trajectory DI also changes the component vectors of the knockback. Lowering the trajectory decreases the vertical component vector.

What if you have multiple regular SDI inputs down so that you hit the ground, does this force you into a techable state before knockback happens?

You can't SDI into the ground to tech. This is Forbidden SDI. You can SDI to move yourself closer to the ground so as to enable you to ASDI into the ground and amsah tech that way. This is hard, lol. It also doesn't apply for moves that cause less than 10 frames of hitlag for reasons I can explain if you are curious. Very few moves cause more than 10 frames of hitlag (hitlag= [(dmg/3) + 3] * IF(electric, then 1.5, else 1)).

Also, i'm confused as to the mechanics as to why you just stay grounded essentially after the flinch when you ASDI down jabs lets say for example at mid %.

ASDI makes your character collide with the ground. If you only received weak knockback, you are not knocked over into a techable state. You land normally as if you jumped and empty landed. If you received strong knockback, you are knocked over in a techable state. It's the same thing that happens if Falco dairs you (went you're in regular Fall) into the ground from the air at low percents when it doesn't knock you over. You go straight into empty landing. Hitstun is canceled. It also cancels all your vertical knockback (up or down).

I think that answers all your questions, but if you have more you can search for ASDI and Crouch Cancel in the Melee Library.

 

[tauKhan]

ASDI makes your character collide with the ground. You land normally as if you jumped and empty landed

Or in case of very weak knockback you sometimes transition to grounded hitstun, like happens with falco's shine -> dair combos and when you crouch + asdi down some jabs at low% . Still don't know exactly when this happens instead of landing.

 

[Sycorax]

like happens with falco's shine -> dair combos

I'm pretty sure this results from hitting the opponent during aerial hitstun. If you hit them during free fall they will Land. If you hit them during hitstun, they stay in the aerial hitstun state when they hit the ground until the hitstun is over.

when you crouch + asdi down some jabs at low%

This is because the jab you're hit by has a Sakurai angle. At low KB, Sakurai angle moves send at 0 degrees and can't be ASDI'd down to cancel hitstun.

 

[tauKhan]

I'm pretty sure this results from hitting the opponent during aerial hitstun. If you hit them during free fall they will Land. If you hit them during hitstun, they stay in the aerial hitstun state when they hit the ground until the hitstun is over.

This is because the jab you're hit by has a Sakurai angle. At low KB, Sakurai angle moves send at 0 degrees and can't be ASDI'd down to cancel hitstun.

So, if you do very fast kb replacing shine dair, it will land, it's not just about being in hitstun. Also I'm relatively positive that if you dair bowser from air at 0 with falco, he'll transition to grounded hitstun. Secondly, the jabs I was talking about are like 50 - 90 (fox jab for example) degree angles IIRC, but def not Sakurai. They can be also ASDI'd up, but they'll still transition to grounded hitstun once landing.

My best guess is it's something similar to impact landing / no impact lands, but I haven't been able to work out what's the requirement for the impact land.

 

[Sycorax]

So, if you do very fast kb replacing shine dair, it will land, it's not just about being in hitstun. Also I'm relatively positive that if you dair bowser from air at 0 with falco, he'll transition to grounded hitstun. Secondly, the jabs I was talking about are like 50 - 90 (fox jab for example) degree angles IIRC, but def not Sakurai. They can be also ASDI'd up, but they'll still transition to grounded hitstun once landing.

My best guess is it's something similar to impact landing / no impact lands, but I haven't been able to work out what's the requirement for the impact land.

Hmmm, you're right. There is something weird going on here. I don't understand what it is.

 

[Syaith]

Hello friends, got kind of a specific request on marth-pikachu matchup w/ marth edgeguarding:
(Inspired from this thread https://smashboards.com/threads/edgeguarded-by-marth.435681/#post-21131644)
If pikachu angles her upb diagonally down to the ledge and snaps it with only the first part of her upb (and so doesn't put out her pancake hurtboxes), can marth dtilt intercept it? If so, would anyone know the frame timing? (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjNhOsusVG0&feature=youtu.be&t=7m21s)

 

[Sycorax]

Hello friends, got kind of a specific request on marth-pikachu matchup w/ marth edgeguarding:
(Inspired from this thread https://smashboards.com/threads/edgeguarded-by-marth.435681/#post-21131644)
If pikachu angles her upb diagonally down to the ledge and snaps it with only the first part of her upb (and so doesn't put out her pancake hurtboxes), can marth dtilt intercept it? If so, would anyone know the frame timing? (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjNhOsusVG0&feature=youtu.be&t=7m21s)

Yes he can hit that angle with dtilt.

I don't know what you mean by "frame timing". The timing at which dtilt will work depends on the angle and how close to the ledge Pikachu is.

 

[Syaith]

Yes he can hit that angle with dtilt.

I don't know what you mean by "frame timing". The timing at which dtilt will work depends on the angle and how close to the ledge Pikachu is.

Oops, I meant frame window.
It looks like marth's dilt lasts for 3 frames, which is pretty tight. But if pikachu's quick attack snaps to the ledge quicker than 3 frames, the frame window to hit the dtilt would be even shorter/as low as 1?

 

[Syaith]

Thanks for the answer in https://smashboards.com/threads/edgeguarded-by-marth.435681/#post-21131644, Sycorax.

Was also wondering if anyone knows some intracacies on powershielding as marth vs falco. Can dashing backwards as opposed to dashing forwards increase the frame window during which marth can ps falco laser (Leffen seems to have an easier time PS-ing falco laser whenever he is dashing back
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g54ob1DgSeo&feature=youtu.be&t=1m35s)

I understand dashing makes marth's hurtbox lower and increases the frame window during which he can PS falco laser for lasers above certain heights, but was wondering if dash back makes it easier than dash forward for certain laser heights.

 

[Comet7]

What is it that allows a PC grab out of dash dancing? My guess is that during turn there's still a bit of velocity but idk. And characters go into smash turn when DDing, right?

 

[tauKhan]

Yes, you still move a bit on the turn frame which can make you slide off.

 

[artifice]

I understand dashing makes marth's hurtbox lower and increases the frame window during which he can PS falco laser for lasers above certain heights, but was wondering if dash back makes it easier than dash forward for certain laser heights.

Although a bit counter-intuitive, I believe most players will say from experience it is easier to power shield moving toward the laser and not away from it. whether that is do to hit/hurt box interpolation or the specific order of operations which characters vs projectiles positions update relative to collision checks, or none of the above... I don't know.

The second part of this is character specific, where in some characters bodies stick out more during certain animations in one direction or the other (forward or backward). I believe character height offsets has less to do with it then their horizontal offsets during these animations, particularly dash/run/walks/wave-dash, and not extreme cases such as using crouch animation to duck under laser (sheik can do this and it can help with power-shielding).

If you go back a page on this thread and look at the gif I posted - showing how far forward Marth is during his dash animation compared with other characers - I believe this will help to understand why turning at the last second may help marth not get hit with the laser where he would in a standing position. As I'm not a marth main, this is speculation - but the optimal strategy for marth perhaps is moving toward the laser, and at the last possible moment (as to preserve as much momentum in the direction of the laser as possible) dash the opposite direction, substantially changing your hurt box positions, and shield during the first several frames of the dash.

 

[Syaith]

As I'm not a marth main, this is speculation - but the optimal strategy for marth perhaps is moving toward the laser, and at the last possible moment (as to preserve as much momentum in the direction of the laser as possible) dash the opposite direction, substantially changing your hurt box positions, and shield during the first several frames of the dash.

It would seem like this technique would add a great deal of consistency to powershielding lasers too, thanks.

Also, I searched this thread and didn't find anything so sorry in advance if this has been answered already... but was curious about the frame window marth has to wavedash out-of-shield to grab peach after she downsmashes if he shield DIs it away.

 

[Bones0]

It would seem like this technique would add a great deal of consistency to powershielding lasers too, thanks.

Also, I searched this thread and didn't find anything so sorry in advance if this has been answered already... but was curious about the frame window marth has to wavedash out-of-shield to grab peach after she downsmashes if he shield DIs it away.

It depends on Marth's shield size because it's based on how many hits Peach gets on him before he shield DIs out of range (assuming he doesn't get poked). You can easily test this is in debug with frame advance. Just buffer jump with C-stick, airdodge after the 4th frame of jumpsquat, then hold shield with both characters to see how many frames Marth is actionable for before Peach is.

 

[Syaith]

You can easily test this is in debug with frame advance.

Thanks, using frame advance is a good idea. I didn't bring my wii to college but when I get home I'll download 20xx and test this.

 

[reverie2]

Couple unrelated questions:

1. Do sheik's low aerial needles have more frame advantage if they're charged? Guessing no because frame advantage is based off the very last needle you threw out?

2. Can SDI change the trajectory you're sent from an attack? For example is it possible to get hit with sheik's fair while in front of her, and you SDI behind her and because you're behind you get the reverse hitbox trajectory? What frame is initial trajectory decided (prior to Trajectory DI)?

 

[tauKhan]

1) No

2) No. Knockback is determined on the 1st frame of hitlag, which is the frame on which the hitbox connects. You can SDI from the 2nd frame of hitlag onward.

 

[Army805]

I'm trying to further my understanding of gravity values in relation to falling speed but i'm not really finding anything other than the wiki page that just says it's how fast a falling character reaches maximum falling speed. I'm looking at this chart: http://i.imgur.com/LqZCpfy.png (apparently the PM info is outdated, i'm only concerned with the melee values which all seem to check out but gravity). If it is how fast they reach they're falling speed, then I would think the gravity rank would be the character stock icons from left to right. (Fox takes 15 frames to reach maximum falling speed which is fastest, next would be bowser bc it takes 16 frames to get to his maximum falling speed, etc.) I'm obviously missing something bc this list would pretty different than the values listed on the wiki/everything else. Can someone properly define what the gravity values represent in melee?

 

[Sycorax]

I'm trying to further my understanding of gravity values in relation to falling speed but i'm not really finding anything other than the wiki page that just says it's how fast a falling character reaches maximum falling speed. I'm looking at this chart: http://i.imgur.com/LqZCpfy.png (apparently the PM info is outdated, i'm only concerned with the melee values which all seem to check out but gravity). If it is how fast they reach they're falling speed, then I would think the gravity rank would be the character stock icons from left to right. (Fox takes 15 frames to reach maximum falling speed which is fastest, next would be bowser bc it takes 16 frames to get to his maximum falling speed, etc.) I'm obviously missing something bc this list would pretty different than the values listed on the wiki/everything else. Can someone properly define what the gravity values represent in melee?

Gravity is the character's change in vertical character velocity over time. For example, Peach's gravity is -0.08. Every frame, her character velocity decreases by 0.08. Her initial full hop velocity is 2.2. The first frame her velocity is 2.2. The next, it's 2.12.

Each character also has a unique terminal velocity that their character velocity cannot decrease below. If a character has very low terminal velocity, it could take them a very short amount of time to reach it even if they had low gravity. It would take a character with gravity -0.05 20 frames to reach a terminal velocity of -1. Compare that to a character with gravity of -0.1 and a terminal velocity of -3. It would take them 30 frames to reach terminal velocity despite having a higher gravity.

 

[artifice]

Sooo just to expand on Sycorax's answer. The wiki's definition is indeed wrong - or at-least their choice of words is poor.

the wiki page that just says it's how fast a falling character reaches maximum falling speed.

What they mean to say is "Gravity is the (constant) value per frame, that Vertical velocity is changed as to be closer to the terminal downward velocity (max fall speed).".

I'm obviously missing something bc this list would pretty different than the values listed on the wiki/everything else. Can someone properly define what the gravity values represent in melee?

and in that graph.. gravity is represented by the slope of each line.

 

[Army805]

Thanks guys, 100% makes sense now.

 

[Malurth]

Inspired by this S2J clip: https://gfycat.com/SlimyFrankHake

How many tech options can Falco's side-B cover at once, and what is the frame window for the maximum coverage option? It seems like it can at least cover no-tech and tech-roll away, and I'm curious if it can also cover tech in place with the same timing. Or I could be wrong and it actually only covers one thing at a time and just looks like it can cover multiple things.

 

[reverie2]

Is it easier SDI jab resets as falco than fox? I know SDI distances are same for the 2 characters, and the only other variable is knockback, and the higher the knockback, the easier it is to escape the reset. But just by experience i see falco get out more (not sure if because falcos seem to use it more)

 

[Sycorax]

Is it easier SDI jab resets as falco than fox? I know SDI distances are same for the 2 characters, and the only other variable is knockback, and the higher the knockback, the easier it is to escape the reset. But just by experience i see falco get out more (not sure if because falcos seem to use it more)

It's easier for Falco to SDI up out of jab resets because he has a lower gravity than Fox (about 73% of the gravity of Fox which is a huge difference).

 

[Bones0]

Can anyone explain quick-grabbing the ledge with Falco's Phantasm? I had always thought this was a Fox-specific tech caused by the slower startup of his side-B, but the first clip in the video looks EXACTLY like Fox's quick grab (which occurs any time you side-B while pressed against the ledge). I'm not sure if it was caused by Yoshi's slant or Mango's momentum/ECB from the shine, but I've never seen Falco grab that early in his Phantasm animation.

 

[Sycorax]

Can anyone explain quick-grabbing the ledge with Falco's Phantasm? I had always thought this was a Fox-specific tech caused by the slower startup of his side-B, but the first clip in the video looks EXACTLY like Fox's quick grab (which occurs any time you side-B while pressed against the ledge). I'm not sure if it was caused by Yoshi's slant or Mango's momentum/ECB from the shine, but I've never seen Falco grab that early in his Phantasm animation.

He ASDI'd the shine down and slide off the stage. He also fastfell as soon as leaving the stage. The side-b cancels his character velocity, but he still had downward KB velocity. Apparently you can grab ledge during the startup of side-b, but you need special circumstances to have downward velocity to grab ledge during it.

 

[Bones0]

He ASDI'd the shine down and slide off the stage. He also fastfell as soon as leaving the stage. The side-b cancels his character velocity, but he still had downward KB velocity. Apparently you can grab ledge during the startup of side-b, but you need special circumstances to have downward velocity to grab ledge during it.

Would any sort of downward KB be sufficient to allow you to grab the ledge? For instance, if you were to ledgecancel the KB from a spike, would that work the same as the shine? And can you tell what the grab range is for Phantasm?

 

[Sycorax]

Would any sort of downward KB be sufficient to allow you to grab the ledge? For instance, if you were to ledgecancel the KB from a spike, would that work the same as the shine? And can you tell what the grab range is for Phantasm?

Yeah, spikes/meteors work too. I also forgot to mention this works on Yoshi's Story ledges. This is because, for some reason, Yoshi's Story's ledges allow the player to snap to the ledge from higher up. For example, it allows Marth to grab the ledge faster when he does a ledge hop, instant jump, fastfall, and he can remain fully intangible. He can only do it on Yoshi's Story.

Here's a picture of Falco's ledgegrab boxes when he is in the initial part of his phantasm. You should learn how to use develop mode.

 

[V_D_X]

Yeah, spikes/meteors work too. I also forgot to mention this works on Yoshi's Story ledges. This is because, for some reason, Yoshi's Story's ledges allow the player to snap to the ledge from higher up. For example, it allows Marth to grab the ledge faster when he does a ledge hop, instant jump, fastfall, and he can remain fully intangible. He can only do it on Yoshi's Story.

The entirety of both slopes are considered part of the ledge. The early ledge snap is caused by your ledge grab boxes interacting with the slope at a point higher up than the actual edge of the stage.

 

[Sefthuko]

I'm getting frustrated trying to figure the amount of hitstun frames marth has after being up-thrown by a Captain Falcon. Using Strong Bad's hitstun calculator and ikneedata, it shows that from 0% - 6% Marth has 36 frames of hitstun after being thrown, while in game from 0% - 2% he has 36 frames and 3% - 9% has 37 frames. This small offset continues to 100%+.

Does this have something to do with Captain Falcon's Up-Throw being a multi-hit move, or maybe that it is not weight dependent? I am stumped I got the correct hitstun values for Captain Falcon's Down throws... so what is so special about this?

Below is a gif of the situation. I am in training mode and have a separate controller to wiggle out of hitstun each frame. Watch the top frame counter to see Marth leave hitstun at 36/37 frames starting from 0%/3% respectively.

I used 20xx 4.05 (enabled No DI cpu to disable random DI codes).

IKneedata (3% shows 36 frames of hitstun not 37)
Up-Throw Weight Independent

 

[Sycorax]

I'm getting frustrated trying to figure the amount of hitstun frames marth has after being up-thrown by a Captain Falcon. Using Strong Bad's hitstun calculator and ikneedata, it shows that from 0% - 6% Marth has 36 frames of hitstun after being thrown, while in game from 0% - 2% he has 36 frames and 3% - 9% has 37 frames. This small offset continues to 100%+.

Does this have something to do with Captain Falcon's Up-Throw being a multi-hit move, or maybe that it is not weight dependent? I am stumped I got the correct hitstun values for Captain Falcon's Down throws... so what is so special about this?

Below is a gif of the situation. I am in training mode and have a separate controller to wiggle out of hitstun each frame. Watch the top frame counter to see Marth leave hitstun at 36/37 frames starting from 0%/3% respectively.

I used 20xx 4.05 (enabled No DI cpu to disable random DI codes).

IKneedata (3% shows 36 frames of hitstun not 37)
Up-Throw Weight Independent

There could be a number of things going on here.

1. Falcon is in the port closer to 1 so Marth will have less hitstun.
2. There is a 4% hitbox on Falcon's uthrow. You have to factor that damage in before calculating the KB of the throw which has 3% damage.
   1. In other words, grabbing and uthrowing someone at 0% is really like uthrowing them at 4%.

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

How long do you maintain your initial jump horizontal speed (while holding the direction you're traveling) before slowing down?

 

[Sycorax]

How long do you maintain your initial jump horizontal speed (while holding the direction you're traveling) before slowing down?

It depends. Some characters gain speed, e.g. Jigglypuff, and other characters slow down, e.g. Fox. For characters that slow down, they slow down at their air friction rate which starts instantly upon entering the air. They will slow down at that rate until they reach their max horizontal air velocity.

 

[tauKhan]

For characters that slow down, they slow down at their air friction rate which starts instantly upon entering the air. They will slow down at that rate until they reach their max horizontal air velocity.

Max horizontal air mobility velocity to be precise. Also, when jump animation ends and you transition to fall, your speed will be immediately capped to max horizontal air mobility velocity. That can lead to very noticeable drop in speed when jump ends with characters that have significantly higher max horizontal jump speed compared to aerial mobility. You can prevent the immediate slow down by performing aerial before the jump ends, since aerials don't cap speed to max aerial mobility.

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

Max horizontal air mobility velocity to be precise. Also, when jump animation ends and you transition to fall, your speed will be immediately capped to max horizontal air mobility velocity. That can lead to very noticeable drop in speed when jump ends with characters that have significantly higher max horizontal jump speed compared to aerial mobility. You can prevent the immediate slow down by performing aerial before the jump ends, since aerials don't cap speed to max aerial mobility.

Ok that makes sense, I was messing with crazy hand and set max air speed to 0 and noticed that my character would still be able to jump but they would lose all horizontal speed after a period of time. This explanation fits that phenomena-

Thanks Sycorax T tauKhan !

 

[reverie2]

Can anyone tell me what SDI inputs are being used in this clip? https://clips.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/UglyTermiteDatSheffy

There are 2 instances where icies go for a downthrow, and then a dair with Nana, and I'm wondering what SDI inputs the fox is using on the 2 situations. It looks like he's SDI'ing away but i'm not 100% sure (could it also be down?)