Q&A Official FAQ and QnA Thread - Ask Your Questions Here!

[Bones0]

@ DefyPls It doesn't matter how long you hold the x/y or R/L as long as you press them within 20 frames of hitting the wall, and don't have your tech disabled by earlier R/L input. It's explained in the video too. If you're still inefficient, there are three major aspects I think you might go wrong with.
1) You have to be very close to the wall before you get hit if the hit sends you away from it, o.w. it will be very hard to touch it via [A]SDI.
2) You have to [A]SDI into the wall. So make sure you're holding towards the ledge when you get hit, unless you go for SDI tech, which might be required at high%.
3) You might be hitting the R/L too late. 20 frames is a long window. Whenever I sweetspot, I press R a bit before I reach the wall/edge. So I kind of option select teching before I even know whether my opponent is trying to hit me or not. I don't try to react to a move and tech, because you can't input tech during hitlag unless you SDI into the wall on the same frame.

You can sdi the uair in any direction, and the best direction to sdi to depends on your character and the way the fox is moving. With puff you often sdi up for example, with marth I think side works usually better. And while the hitlag of the 1st hit of uair is 4 frames, you can't sdi on the 1st one (the hit frame), so the window is actually only 3 frames.

If you hold L to tech and keep holding it for say 35 frames, does the disabled tech window still start the frame after the initial tech input? I've never thought about whether or not it is beneficial to release the trigger asap.

 

[Kadano]

@ DefyPls And while the hitlag of the 1st hit of uair is 4 frames, you can't sdi on the 1st one (the hit frame), so the window is actually only 3 frames.

Just a minor addition, in the video I say the opposite: “SDI is possible on every frame of hitlag except the very last one”. Our sayings do not contradict each other, though. This is just a terminology thing, where I understand “input on frame x” to say that the respective input will start when frame x has already been calculated, so it takes effect on frame x+1. I use “input at frame x” to say that the input starts when frame x-1 has already been calculated, so the input takes effect on frame x. You used on like I normally use at, but of course neither is better here since we don’t have official guidelines for these terminology things.
In any case, the amount of frames at which you can SDI is always hitlag-1.

If you hold L to tech and keep holding it for say 35 frames, does the disabled tech window still start the frame after the initial tech input? I've never thought about whether or not it is beneficial to release the trigger asap.

The internal digital shield input starts counting whenever one is started. It does not make any difference whether you hold it for 1 frame or for 1000 frames.

 

[DefyPls]

So, I have to ASDI into the wall in order to tech? I've just been riding up it the entire time. Thanks tauKhan, I'm going to try this later, forgive me, but can you just be holding the C-stick towards the wall for ASDI, or do I have to smash my stick, in 3 frames, like SDI?

If you hold L to tech and keep holding it for say 35 frames, does the disabled tech window still start the frame after the initial tech input? I've never thought about whether or not it is beneficial to release the trigger asap.

In my opinion, you can press or hold L/R for as long as you like while teching, unless you press the input again, nothing's going to happen.

 

[Arche]

I've been doing a lot of tech-skill with Fox lately, mainly short-hop based (just short-hops, shdl, shffl, etc...), and the joint (the one connecting the finger to the hand) of my right index hurts. I claw, with my index on Y, so it's the finger I use to jump.
Beside talking to a physician, do you have any kind of exercises or stretching or whatever I could do to help ?

 

[TreK]

Has any extensive research on crouch canceling been made ?

I have done this in the context of Project M but the more I dive into this, the more I find things that make me think I've been looking at it the wrong way.

The best I've found is this, which will let me have a lot of data very quickly, but it's not what I'm looking for. In the context of PM, with 30+ relevant characters, and updates that screw your whole data collection over periodically, what I need is a bunch of formulas I can use.

@ Kadano maybe ? Most of what I know about CC is from you and Doraki

 

[bobhopper42]

http://bosscade.com/c?r=luxK3Lrne

 

[BRUJO~]

Anyone have advice for grinding practice for sdi'ing fox uair?

 

[Dolla Pills]

What is boost running?

 

[Xyzz]

Are you thinking of boost grabbing? (If you hit z during the first three frames of an initiated dash attack, you'll get a grab instead, but the initial momentum from the dash attack is still retained. Characters like Sheik, who have very high momentum on their dash attack can use this for a significant increase in range on their dash grab)

 

[Dolla Pills]

No I saw it on a Westballz tweet from a while ago, it has to do with moonwalking and then stickywalking and then running or something along those lines.

Here's the only thing I found on Google by the way, although the link doesn't work for me and it doesn't really say anything helpful for someone who isn't aware of the technique:
https://m.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/2zg6ej/timing_for_boost_run_moonwalk/

Also he may or may not be doing it in the warm ups for this set:
http://youtu.be/doD-d3STtcQ

 

[Sempai]

Anyone have advice for grinding practice for sdi'ing fox uair?

Get the 20xx hack pack, its built in.

Input the grab uair code.
Save state before he grabs you.
Attempt to smash DI
If u do it right, great.
If you die, load state, rinse and repeat

 

[tauKhan]

What is boost running?

Moonwalk -> interrupt the moonwalk with run -> run turn (holding the direction to accelerate). You have your dash acceleration during run turn. In addition the run turn has a strange property that it doesn't cap your velocity the same way dash does, so you can achieve very high speeds with some chars with higher dash acceleration than traction.

The problem with this tech is that you can't do ANYTHING except jump to interrupt the run turn, which takes quite long (28 frames with falcon for example). I have only ever seen Jeapie do this during battle in a tourney set. Also I heard the term 'Boost run' for first time last month, and have really only heard westballz call it that. A very old name for the tech is 'Charlie' if you happen to come across that.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[Templar_Trejore]

I cant beet level 9 Ness on jungle japes, how do I win?

 

[Dolla Pills]

I cant beet level 9 Ness on jungle japes, how do I win?

Level 9 Ness on Jungle Japes is like M2K on FD against a low level fox, you just have to accept your fate and put the controller down.

 

[The Cancelled L]

Is there a way to get a name in name entry to be longer than 4 characters? I see people doing it in many cases but I cant find a way to do it myself.

 

[Kadano]

Is there a way to get a name in name entry to be longer than 4 characters? I see people doing it in many cases but I cant find a way to do it myself.

“Melee Workshop” is the right section for that. If I remember correctly, Dan Salvato and achilles1515 worked on that, so it should be in their threads there.

 

[_noname]

Looking for a main, particular someone who is similar to charizard in PM.

 

[kingPiano]

Looking for a main, particular someone who is similar to charizard in PM.

You will be very happy using Ganondorf

 

[tauKhan]

Ganondorf is not faster than marth on the ground though... I don't think anything in melee is very similar to zard. Marth is the most similar in my opinion, but it's not like it's a close match or anything. I suggest to just forget about your pm main altogether and pick a char you like.

 

[_noname]

You will be very happy using Ganondorf

Ganondorf is not faster than marth on the ground though... I don't think anything in melee is very similar to zard. Marth is the most similar in my opinion, but it's not like it's a close match or anything. I suggest to just forget about your pm main altogether and pick a char you like.

All aside then, is ganon the most hard hitting character in the game?

 

[Xyzz]

"Most hard hitting character" is pretty ambiguous (and if I'm not mistaken also grammatically incorrect; should be "hardest hitting" I think )... has the move dealing the most damage? Percentage dealt averaged over all his moves? Averaged over the moves that you actually can somewhat reliably hit your opponent with?

But yeah, Ganon hits like a truck... and you're always aware of that fact when playing him (:
He is fairly slow though, and isn't generally considered a top tier character. CF / Marth might be okay substitutes if something irks you about the way Ganon plays out.

 

[kingPiano]

All aside then, is ganon the most hard hitting character in the game?

Ganon is the hardest hitting character with enough range and minimal move lag to overcome his slow movement and size (making him viable). 3-4 moves can end a space animal.

 

[xKobayashi]

Does anybody to what extent that 20XX TE will have the same features as other 20XX renditions? Namely, will CPUs still be able to tech, or will there still be a mode where you flash green/blue when you are idle?

 

[_noname]

Ganon is the hardest hitting character with enough range and minimal move lag to overcome his slow movement and size (making him viable). 3-4 moves can end a space animal.

How do i hit people with him then? Have trouble against fast characters like falco/fox.

 

[kingPiano]

How do i hit people with him then? Have trouble against fast characters like falco/fox.

I haven't played on a high level with Ganon, but from what I've seen of Bizzarro and Kage - Ganon can wall out spacies approaches with SHFFL Fairs, Uairs, and Bairs (Bair can SH auto-cancel early). Ganon's Jab is excellent against spacies, and Dair can be hard to counter from below and it chains into almost anything.

 

[Bones0]

How do i hit people with him then? Have trouble against fast characters like falco/fox.

Watch top Ganon players and figure out how they hit top spacie players.

 

[CeLL]

Is there a difference in shield produced with a digital press and a shield produced from the fullest analog press?

 

[Kadano]

Is there a difference in shield produced with a digital press and a shield produced from the fullest analog press?

Yup. Fullest analog shield can’t powershield (http://smashboards.com/posts/18512581)

 

[CeLL]

Yup. Fullest analog shield can’t powershield (http://smashboards.com/posts/18512581)

Is that it though? Like the shieldstun and pushback are the same?

 

[Kadano]

Is that it though? Like the shieldstun and pushback are the same?

Yes, unless you trigger a powershield. (See the Magus post I now integrated into the post I just linked for that.)

 

[kingPiano]

Kadano or anyone - do you have the Knockback formula solved for Attack Damage and Opponent Damage (p and d) and perhaps their graphs

I noticed that at mid to KO percents the stale move negation has hardly any affect at all on actual knockback (even when damage is halved, 9th use) while the KG and opponent damage percent factors seem to be MUCH more influential in the end calculation of the knockback.

Thanks in advance

 

[tauKhan]

There you go: http://smashboards.com/threads/tool...dstun-calculation-v1-11.324878/#post-14651044

Kb is determined from unstaled hitbox damage, and victim damage after hit, so staleness has very little effect for kb in melee except for some projectiles, which use staled hitbox damage.

 

[kingPiano]

There you go: http://smashboards.com/threads/tool...dstun-calculation-v1-11.324878/#post-14651044

Kb is determined from unstaled hitbox damage, and victim damage after hit, so staleness has very little effect for kb in melee except for some projectiles, which use staled hitbox damage.

Ok I know the knockback formula like the back of my hand and I've had the calculation spreadsheet for years, but I hadn't heard that the unstaled damage was always used in it's calculation. That seems to makes sense now with all the results I've seen over the years.

So then what causes this perceived lowered knockback if it's not the damage stale reduction factor? The small damage difference factored after the hit doesn't seem like it would be enough to account for the gap I notice in KB, but that's probably it I guess (didn't test that thoroughly)

Either way I guess I'll just go ahead and solve for P and D myself. That's what I'm really curious about, to see their graph relationships.

 

[NeoTurtle]

So teching has a 20 frame window, and a 40 frame penalty for hitting a digital L or R trigger and not hitting something techable in those 20 frames. Does anyone know if meteor cancelling has a window, and how it behaves?

 

[kingPiano]

So teching has a 20 frame window, and a 40 frame penalty for hitting a digital L or R trigger and not hitting something techable in those 20 frames. Does anyone know if meteor cancelling has a window, and how it behaves?

AFAIK Meteor canceling can be triggered anytime after you come out of hitlag from the meteor smash move (Ganon's has difficult timing because his Dair has so much hitlag from it's massive damage and electricity effect). If you try and cancel too early you have to wait another 60 frames to try and meteor cancel again.

 

[Kadano]

So teching has a 20 frame window, and a 40 frame penalty for hitting a digital L or R trigger and not hitting something techable in those 20 frames. Does anyone know if meteor cancelling has a window, and how it behaves?

The game keeps track of all your jump inputs (X, Y and ↑) in a frame counter, and of your ↑+B inputs in another one. Whenever one of these is below 40, meteor canceling with that input is disabled. An ↑+B input always activates both timers. This means that when a character with a quickly ascending up-B (Marth, Marios to a lesser degree) is hit by meteor quite soon at the apex of his up-B, he has to wait much longer than the initial 7 frames hitstun where meteor canceling is always disabled until he can up-B again.

For example, if Marth sweetspots his recovery on FD and gets dair’d by a Falcon at his up-B apex (frame 20), when the 7 frames disabled meteor cancel period is over and the game permits meteor-canceling again, Marth still needs to wait another 13 frames until the up-B timer has reached 40. Pressing it at any point before that will reset the timer to 0 without starting an up-B.
During hitlag, the timer is freezed.
With perfect timing in this situation, Marth can only meteor cancel if he has less than 13% damage. From 13% on, the 13 frames knockback will move Marth a longer distance than his up-B possibly can.

Edit: If Marth is hit by Ganon’s dair instead, he can’t MC even at 0%, lol.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yes meteor canceling has a (separate) 60 frame window as well.

Whats interesting is that the first time you press upb, that timer is started. That means characters like marth and game & watch who rise quickly after pressing upb cannot meteor cancel until 60 frames after their first upb. Fox and Falco have it much easier because their upb stalls for more than 60 frames before moving.

The same thing is true for teching of course. If you are about to lcancel and are hit, you will not be able to tech because you pressed the button within the last 60 frames.

 

[DéjàVu]

Sorry to detract from your guy's discussion here, but I didn't know where else I could turn to for this, but could you @ Kadano bring up the raw numbers for blizzobling? Yes I know it's inferior to wobbling in every way I'm just curious and could not figure it out myself as I'm still trying to learn frames and debug mode ect ect, any help would be appreciated

 

[kingPiano]

Okay this has been on my mind since I first started really getting into the data of this game. Does the flame/fire effect have any special properties like electricity?

I've always thought it added auxiliary hitstun or that the fire effect somehow grants the original knockback/hitstun special properties. I say this because I notice that when I CC moves that have flame/fire effect it seems to affect me the same or not be reduced as much as a normal attack (YL fire arrow, samus bomb, etc). The hitstun seems almost the same but the knock back trajectory seems altered or lessened.