Official Official Standard Custom Moveset Project: Villager

[captain clutch]

I agree with what @ P Pepperz is saying as far as including the 1312 set. That's the set I used for the longest time, because I felt the same way he did, until I was convinced to use EBT consistently. I like both recoveries, and while I haven't run into problems with EBT yet, I'm sure there could be certain MUs where BT would be more suitable. But regardless of which move is "better" we still should respect player preferences. 1312 should definitely be a set

And ya'll are making regular BT sound like it's painfully slow. I feel like it's the speed of Olimar with one Pikmin, and a lot more height.

 

[Darklink401]

I agree with what @ P Pepperz is saying as far as including the 1312 set. That's the set I used for the longest time, because I felt the same way he did, until I was convinced to use EBT consistently. I like both recoveries, and while I haven't run into problems with EBT yet, I'm sure there could be certain MUs where BT would be more suitable. But regardless of which move is "better" we still should respect player preferences. 1312 should definitely be a set

And ya'll are making regular BT sound like it's painfully slow. I feel like it's the speed of Olimar with one Pikmin, and a lot more height.

It's slow, but it's not painfully so. XP

Also 1312 is...regular pocket, regular recovery, and what else? :O

 

[captain clutch]

It's slow, but it's not painfully so. XP

Also 1312 is...regular pocket, regular recovery, and what else? :O

Pushy Gyroid and Counter Timber.
I've never tested them next to each other, but how slow is BT compared to ROB or Olimar or DH recoveries? I feel like their speeds are pretty similar, and Villager has the height whereas the others can attack out of their recovery moves.

 

[Darklink401]

Pushy Gyroid and Counter Timber.
I've never tested them next to each other, but how slow is BT compared to ROB or Olimar or DH recoveries? I feel like their speeds are pretty similar, and Villager has the height whereas the others can attack out of their recovery moves.

Keep in mind Olimar with no Pikmin and Rob go almost the same distance as Villager XP

But they ARE around the same speed, yes. Just, Rob's is more dangerous since he's a bigger target.


Also, that sounds like a legit set.

 

[Pepperz]

What does everybody play in tournament or plan on?

I'm 1312.

If a custom is not going to be used in tournament play, what's the purpose of pushing it? I see people putting 3-5 builds but don't plan on going to tournament or use all if them but they will affect the villager meta greatly. We are given a select few spots and will have to use every one to the fullest. I want this list to be base from tournament play and not theory.

 

[SoniCraft]

I think a good idea would be to have everyone present their top 2 sets for what they would use in tournament besides the four "essentials" we'll call them:

1122
1322
1121
1321

Along with presenting these two(or maybe only one) sets, a short explanation for each could be provided so that there's at least some argument for including the set. This way we can get a general idea of what people really would use besides these four sets. For example:

2322

The Garden Variant to 1322. I would use this against serious threats such as Sheik, Yoshi, and Sonic, where regular pocket wouldn't have much use.

2121

I would use this against the likes of Falco or Fox, where standard timber would prove a great edgegaurding tool and standard lloid would be best for reflector baiting. Also, pocketing doesn't prove very useful, so Garden is the obvious alternative.

 

[Pepperz]

You can't call any build "essential" just yet. What tournament videos are there that's out that exhibited these as "essential"?

What builds do you use? Tournament wise that is.

 

[captain clutch]

Tournament wise, I've used 1312, 1322, 1122, and 2322.
2312, 2122, and 1112 should be considered as well

 

[SoniCraft]

Alright I guess our video evidence is pretty limited for any of these moves, so maybe calling them "essential" is a little too decisive. However, I believe they are 4 options that encompass the majority of what villagers that have spoken want. Meaning that timber counter and pushy lloid are what every villager agrees to be the only other decision for those certain special attacks. EBT is used instead of Default because it is believed by most to be a general upgrade from Default. Of course, these four sets are not going to be the only ones that villagers use, so we should see what other sets people like to use most.

 

[Darklink401]

Why dont we make a poll?

A poll of the 15 most popular sets, and we get to vote for 3, to narrow down the most popular?

 

[SoniCraft]

Why dont we make a poll?

A poll of the 15 most popular sets, and we get to vote for 3, to narrow down the most popular?

Of course a poll! Why didn't I think of that? Who's gonna make it?

 

[Darklink401]

Of course a poll! Why didn't I think of that? Who's gonna make it?

I can make it.

Gimme a list of the top 15.

 

[Pepperz]

A poll would be nice but not the best way up choose customs. It turns into a popularity contest instead of what's best for the meta of the character.

 

[Darklink401]

A poll would be nice but not the best way up choose customs. It turns into a popularity contest instead of what's best for the meta of the character.

It wouldn't be to decide the list, but rather, to narrow it down and give us a more 'solid' possible list.

 

[SoniCraft]

A poll would be nice but not the best way up choose customs. It turns into a popularity contest instead of what's best for the meta of the character.

But isn't the meta of any fighting game defined by popularity for the most part?

 

[Pepperz]

@captainclutch
How was the tournament with those builds? Was there any builds that you didn't like? You plan on going to any other tournaments?

@DarkLink
I like that. We can narrow down the list but tournament play should have a greater impact, IMO.

@sonic
No, what's popular doesn't always mean best for the meta. It just means more popular. You won't find or know what's best for the meta till tournament play come into action.

 

[Pepperz]

Honestly, I know the purpose of this whole project but it's such a bad way to go about tournaments. This alienates so many villager players. I want every player to play their villager the way the want to play. What's best for me and my style may not be best or preferred for your style. Maybe what's best for the meta is not BT or EBT but maybe high jump. Maybe it's a build that doesn't even get mention in the thread. Nobody knows.

What really should happen is that the TO and staff should be station all around the tournament to import these builds for the community. So no player feels left out.

 

[Darklink401]

Honestly, I know the purpose of this whole project but it's such a bad way to go about tournaments. This alienates so many villager players. I want every player to play their villager the way the want to play. What's best for me and my style may not be best or preferred for your style. Maybe what's best for the meta is not BT or EBT but maybe high jump. Maybe it's a build that doesn't even get mention in the thread. Nobody knows.

What really should happen is that the TO and staff should be station all around the tournament to import these builds for the community. So no player feels left out.

If its a build that doesnt get mentioned in the thread, then its not a popular build enough for anyone to care about it.

Like who would go for Balloon Jump, Giant Pocket, Giant Timber and Liftoff Lloid? No one.\


Also 2 points for you:

1. You have no way of knowing if it will alienate any number of Villager players. If anything, I'd just pick the set that's closer to mine, if it's not chosen or popular. A lot would as well, if they see that their set is not in the tournament. They'd obviously announce the sets beforehand, so you have time time to get used to a single move that is different from your perfect set.

2. It's not a bad way to go about it at all. It's actually a very smart way, because this way, the members of each board get to discuss which sets are more useful, even including some niche sets as basically counterpick sets.

And you know what? If your argument is against using popularity to decide, then you're obviously not seeing the discussions going on in all the boards, to make this way, which seems to be the only way to do this within manageable time, the best possible for everyone.


If they were to include the possibility of quickly putting sets together, then that would take too long. That's the advantage I see from 3ds over Wii U.

But this is not a perfect reality, and if we want to include various custom sets, this is the only democratic way to do it.

If your set isnt in there, then just use the Vanilla. And if you dont like the Vanilla, then that really makes you unable to use the character in any non-custom tournament :s

 

[Pepperz]

If its a build that doesnt get mentioned in the thread, then its not a popular build enough for anyone to care about it.

Like who would go for Balloon Jump, Giant Pocket, Giant Timber and Liftoff Lloid? No one.\


Also 2 points for you:

1. You have no way of knowing if it will alienate any number of Villager players. If anything, I'd just pick the set that's closer to mine, if it's not chosen or popular. A lot would as well, if they see that their set is not in the tournament. They'd obviously announce the sets beforehand, so you have time time to get used to a single move that is different from your perfect set.

2. It's not a bad way to go about it at all. It's actually a very smart way, because this way, the members of each board get to discuss which sets are more useful, even including some niche sets as basically counterpick sets.

And you know what? If your argument is against using popularity to decide, then you're obviously not seeing the discussions going on in all the boards, to make this way, which seems to be the only way to do this within manageable time, the best possible for everyone.


If they were to include the possibility of quickly putting sets together, then that would take too long. That's the advantage I see from 3ds over Wii U.

But this is not a perfect reality, and if we want to include various custom sets, this is the only democratic way to do it.

If your set isnt in there, then just use the Vanilla. And if you dont like the Vanilla, then that really makes you unable to use the character in any non-custom tournament :s

I disagree. They're are a lot of players, and I do mean a lot,that don't post or even visit the forums. Much less character base ones. I've been apart of this community and forum over a decade and I still have way less post then most of you here. 6 post a year. Or 1 every two months. Not the greatest rate of post. A 3rd coming from just this thread alone. I'm just one of the many unspoken few on these boards.

If you think the 20 different unique users that posting in this thread is the "whole" villager community, think again. They're are a slew of players that play differently and prefer different styles. There are 80 possible combinations and you're telling me that the "whole" community play just 6-8 different builds?

This whole process is theorizing. No videos. No tournament posting. Nothing but "I think..." But you assume it as fact when dealing with the meta of the villager.

If Im going to drop hundreds to play in a tournament across the country, I'm not going with the accept the "deal with it" Attitude.

 

[Pepperz]

If I didn't come to the villager board to expand my game, I would have never stumbled across this thread. I wouldn't have the proper representation for my build. I would have ended up playing everybody else's opinion on what the "best" build for the villager meta. And I'm just one person. They're are many people like me.

 

[Darklink401]

I disagree. They're are a lot of players, and I do mean a lot,that don't post or even visit the forums. Much less character base ones. I've been apart of this community and forum over a decade and I still have way less post then most of you here. 6 post a year. Or 1 every two months. Not the greatest rate of post. A 3rd coming from just this thread alone. I'm just one of the many unspoken few on these boards.

If you think the 20 different unique users that posting in this thread is the "whole" villager community, think again. They're are a slew of players that play differently and prefer different styles. There are 80 possible combinations and you're telling me that the "whole" community play just 6-8 different builds?

This whole process is theorizing. No videos. No tournament posting. Nothing but "I think..." But you assume it as fact when dealing with the meta of the villager.

If Im going to drop hundreds to play in a tournament across the country, I'm not going with the accept the "deal with it" Attitude.

But here's the thing

It comes down to

The active community working together to choose the best 10 builds

Or

Not having customs at all

At least in the former, you have a chance to get your set build.

There really is no reason to complain here, we're doing the best we can to get the best sets, and in the future, if other stuff is discovered, this list isnt set in stone forever or anything.

I really don't get why you're arguing about this, when the alternative to what we're doing doesn't allow you to use your holy custom build either :S

 

[captain clutch]

The game only has 10 slots per character, so it's very likely that some players will get the short end of the stick. Somebody's play style could be to utilize lift off Lloyd, but since none of us use that, is that unfair to that player? Or would it be more unfair to dedicate an entire slot based off an unpopular build? That's why I think popularity should be a factor. Not the sole determinant, but something to consider.

As for the 15 sets to use in a poll, let's do this:

1122
1322
2122
2322
1121
1112
^the original 6 sets PLUS:
1312
1321
1311
2112
2121
2312
2321
2311
And the final position could go to one (or more) of these "less popular" ones
3322 (Anti-Ness)
3311 (Anti-Ness)
1323 (Dubz)
1323 (Dubz)

What do ya'll think? Make a poll with these sets, and the top 10 should be our standard custom sets.

 

[Darklink401]

The game only has 10 slots per character, so it's very likely that some players will get the short end of the stick. Somebody's play style could be to utilize lift off Lloyd, but since none of us use that, is that unfair to that player? Or would it be more unfair to dedicate an entire slot based off an unpopular build? That's why I think popularity should be a factor. Not the sole determinant, but something to consider.

As for the 15 sets to use in a poll, let's do this:

1122
1322
2122
2322
1121
1112
^the original 6 sets PLUS:
1312
1321
1311
2112
2121
2312
2321
2311
And the final position could go to one (or more) of these "less popular" ones
3322 (Anti-Ness)
3311 (Anti-Ness)
1323 (Dubz)
1323 (Dubz)

What do ya'll think? Make a poll with these sets, and the top 10 should be our standard custom sets.

I think if you're using Liftoff Lloid, you're being unfair to yourself, lol.

And aight, I'll put the poll up tomorrow.

 

[captain clutch]

I think if you're using Liftoff Lloid, you're being unfair to yourself, lol.

And aight, I'll put the poll up tomorrow.

Who knows? I mean people like MegaMan's side b that goes up (bubble wrap I think it's called) Someone could like lift off.

But yeah, not me lol.

BTW @ P Pepperz , I've been competing in online weekly custom tournaments since the 3DS version release, and now do the Wii U ones. Every week, I've made it out of the swiss round pools that consist of 60-100 players. The top cut is then put into a double elimination bracket of 8-16 people depending on the size of the tournament. I usually place tied for 5th or tied for 7th every time.

I've just started to get into my local scene, and unfortunately they are currently pro-ban for customs. Mainly for logistical reasons I would assume.

 

[Tinkerer]

Regarding ten slots, remember that having all ten slots filled up with specific customs might be an EVO thing only - the Custom Move Project otherwise always leaves at least two slots open for people to create their own sets. EVO isn't allowing that, so we're stuck with ten specific sets; so any Villager players actually going to EVO should have extra weight here if a set they want to use isn't there.

 

[Antonykun]

More Pocket Plus
I separated characters into three categories: Those with projectiles that must be pocketed/the reflect barely matters, so Pocket's power buff barely matters so Pocket Plus or Garden would do better,Those with Projectiles worth reflecting, Pocket's 1.9X power Buff is important here, Those with no projectlies/not worth pocketing, Garden is the only one that useful here.

Spoiler: Worth Pocketing

(Big) Mechakoopa
Banana
U-air/Air Shooter
Pk Thunder Variants
Bonus Fruit Variants*
Gyro Variants
Floaty Star Bits
(Pushy) Lloyd Rocket, Timber**
Bike Variants
Header***

Spoiler: Worth Reflecting

Clown Cannon
/ Bow Variants
Gordo Variants
/ Fireball/Pill Variants
(Everything?)
XXL Chef
Water Shuriken
Bow/Boomerang Variants, Meteor Bomb
Aura Sphere Variants
Side B Variants, F-smash, D-air
Shot Put
Charge Shot, Super Missle
Gale Strike, Shuriken of Light, Chakram
Pk Fire Variants
/ Side B Variants
Bonus Fruit Variants*, Hydrant
Turnip Variants
Thunder (jolt) Variants except Thunder Burst
Laser Variants
El/ArcThunder Variants, Arcfire (+)
Shooting Star Bits
Charge Shot, Super Missile
Spring
Bow/Boomerang/Bomb Variants
Slingshot, F-smash, Dash Attack, Timber**, (Pushy) Lloyd Rocket
Sun Salutation, Header***
Phantom
Paralyzer

Spoiler: No Projectiles Worth Pocketing

/



Star Bits

*If you are folding Bonus Fruit, Pac-Man can't spawn another but if it is in the pocket he can spawn another.
** Just holding Timber is intimidating but with Pocket it is a OHKO at 0%
*** If you have Header in your pocket WFT can't spawn another but you cannot refresh it and the reflected Header hurts a lot.

Hopefully this might turn some heads on Villager's amazing sidegrades for Pocket.

 

[Darklink401]

More Pocket Plus
I separated characters into three categories: Those with projectiles that must be pocketed/the reflect barely matters, so Pocket's power buff barely matters so Pocket Plus or Garden would do better,Those with Projectiles worth reflecting, Pocket's 1.9X power Buff is important here, Those with no projectlies/not worth pocketing, Garden is the only one that useful here.

Spoiler: Worth Pocketing

(Big) Mechakoopa
Banana
U-air/Air Shooter
Pk Thunder Variants
Bonus Fruit Variants*
Gyro Variants
Floaty Star Bits
(Pushy) Lloyd Rocket, Timber**
Bike Variants
Header***

Spoiler: Worth Reflecting

Clown Cannon
/ Bow Variants
Gordo Variants
/ Fireball/Pill Variants
(Everything?)
XXL Chef
Water Shuriken
Bow/Boomerang Variants, Meteor Bomb
Aura Sphere Variants
Side B Variants, F-smash, D-air
Shot Put
Charge Shot, Super Missle
Gale Strike, Shuriken of Light, Chakram
Pk Fire Variants
Turnip Variants
Thunder (jolt) Variants except Thunder Burst
Laser Variants
El/ArcThunder Variants, Arcfire (+)
Shooting Star Bits
Charge Shot, Super Missile
Spring
Bow/Boomerang/Bomb Variants
Slingshot, F-smash, Dash Attack, Timber**, (Pushy) Lloyd Rocket
Sun Salutation, Header***
Phantom
Paralyzer

Spoiler: No Projectiles Worth Pocketing

/




Star Bits

*If you are folding Bonus Fruit, Pac-Man can't spawn another but if it is in the pocket he can spawn another.
** Just holding Timber is intimidating but with Pocket it is a OHKO at 0%
*** If you have Header in your pocket WFT can't spawn another but you cannot refresh it and the reflected Header hurts a lot.

Hopefully this might turn some heads on Villager's amazing sidegrades for Pocket.

You can Pocket Olimar's pikmin and he can't pull out a Pikmin of that color

As I understand it.


Also

http://smashboards.com/threads/voting-time-most-popular-villager-custom-sets.392893/

Happy voting peeps

 

[cree318]

Hey, just throwing my two cents in here but I was testing some custom sets against Bowser Jr. Usually Jr isn't a difficult matchup, but some of his custom moves do make him more of a threat to Villy. Specifically his Impatient Mechakoopa and Grounding Dash (I'm pretty sure he was using a 3312 set). I noticed that if the Grounding Dash is driven over a counter tree sapling he doesn't trip. Also the Impatient Mechakoopa is harder to pocket cycle due to it exploding when it is brought out after you initially pocket it.
I had the most success using a 2121 set as opposed to my go to sets of 2122 or 2322.
This may or may not be useful against other characters but just some food for thought as now that voting is underway.

 

[Tinkerer]

I'd like to make a case for Super Timber. I've been playing a lot of 2v2s lately, which is probably the gametype that has the most Villagers, even in tournaments. 2v2s allow you much more time for setups like needed for Super Timber, but with two players you can very often make the giant treefall work and even just setting it up for the high power axe is very viable. I feel like it's a much underrated special move especially considering it's good at killing in a format you'll see a lot of Villagers in.

On that note, is having all the sets include a Garden variant really that necessary? Garden is mostly in there because it's very, very slightly better against opponents who have no projectiles, and mostly used in cases where just using an aerial for damage would be way better. If we're lacking in slots, I'd rather see some openings for Super Timber than giving everything a Garden variation, because the latter difference in gameplay is way more minute.

 

[Antonykun]

For the record Villager's worst matchups tend to be against characters who don't have projectiles/ have projectiles that its not worth pocketing in the first place.

 

[captain clutch]

I'd like to make a case for Super Timber. I've been playing a lot of 2v2s lately, which is probably the gametype that has the most Villagers, even in tournaments. 2v2s allow you much more time for setups like needed for Super Timber, but with two players you can very often make the giant treefall work and even just setting it up for the high power axe is very viable. I feel like it's a much underrated special move especially considering it's good at killing in a format you'll see a lot of Villagers in.

On that note, is having all the sets include a Garden variant really that necessary? Garden is mostly in there because it's very, very slightly better against opponents who have no projectiles, and mostly used in cases where just using an aerial for damage would be way better. If we're lacking in slots, I'd rather see some openings for Super Timber than giving everything a Garden variation, because the latter difference in gameplay is way more minute.

Good points. Super Timber's watering can also becomes a legitimate tool. There should be at least one-and most likely only one-Super Timber set. 1323 is probably the way to go because Pushy Llyod adds time to plant/water/cut the tree. And default pocket is clearly epic in doubles. The only debate would be the group that prefers default Balloon Trip.

 

[Tinkerer]

For the record Villager's worst matchups tend to be against characters who don't have projectiles/ have projectiles that its not worth pocketing in the first place.

Yeah, I'm not questioning that, but I'm kind of doubting any edge that Garden gives realistically against those kind of matchups. Just because it's marginally better than having nothing doesn't mean it's necessarily any good, and whether that difference is worth taking other sets out for. Not just Super Timber sets, but also the sets with default Balloon Trip, which some people like better (and it really is a matter of preference, as default does give you a bit more control).

Good points. Super Timber's watering can also becomes a legitimate tool. There should be at least one-and most likely only one-Super Timber set. 1323 is probably the way to go because Pushy Llyod adds time to plant/water/cut the tree. And default pocket is clearly epic in doubles. The only debate would be the group that prefers default Balloon Trip.

Yeah, 1323 is what I use for a Super Timber set. Pushy Lloid just seems generally better for it.

 

[Pepperz]

I ran the 1312 build at my local tournament. I got 3rd out of 20. I ran thru just about everybody there except the people that are ranked in my state, NC. I beat the 1st rank player player in my state, who played Palutena. 2-0. I only lost sets to the 3rd rank guy who's a sonic player. Winners,2-1, and losers, 3-0. All being close games. I know I can beat him next time. It was stupid mistakes and approaches that held me back. Things I can correct.

After playing this build, 1312, in at tournament, this has to be on the list. This games meta favors speed. It gives BT that advantage that EBT doesn't allow. There were tons of Nairs and dairs during the tournament offstage in which I needed to speed back to the ledge that I just can't get with EBT. Even when you do wiff the attack, you make it back to the stage at such a fast pace, beating out the other player. It's a quality that majority of the villager community is overlooking when comparing BT to EBT.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

I'm going to a customs-allowed tournament on Thursday. I'll be running 1322.

I think I'll do better than I did at my last tournament considering Greninja cant just use hydro pump for a free stock anymore. Also customs means Sonic won't be too much of a hassle this time around.

Anyway I'll report back here after the fact but honestly I don't see how your or my tournament placings say anything relevant about the customs. They're locals, you and I aren't "top" players, and at this point in time we haven't replicated our results often enough to be able to draw meaningful conclusions from them.

Also after giving it thought I feel 1312 shouldn't be excluded, not from EVO anyway. We should make it clear we want at least 1312 available as the representative for Trip. Assuming enough Villager players attend, and enough of them use custom sets (nothing is stopping people from running 1111 in a customs-allowed environment), we should get a very good idea of how Trip and Extreme size up against each other.

 

[Antonykun]

I'm going to a customs-allowed tournament on Thursday. I'll be running 1322.

I think I'll do better than I did at my last tournament considering Greninja cant just use hydro pump for a free stock anymore. Also customs means Sonic won't be too much of a hassle this time around.

Anyway I'll report back here after the fact but honestly I don't see how your or my tournament placings say anything relevant about the customs. They're locals, you and I aren't "top" players, and at this point in time we haven't replicated our results often enough to be able to draw meaningful conclusions from them.

Also after giving it thought I feel 1312 shouldn't be excluded, not from EVO anyway. We should make it clear we want at least 1312 available as the representative for Trip. Assuming enough Villager players attend, and enough of them use custom sets (nothing is stopping people from running 1111 in a customs-allowed environment), we should get a very good idea of how Trip and Extreme size up against each other.

GoGOGOGOGOGO make turnip top PROUD!

 

[Pepperz]

Tournament results are better than theory battling everybody. Tournament results can be quantified. I feel it will be a better meta than just have a bunch of internet users expressing their thoughts on what they feel is correct. Honestly, I respect your opinion more than I will of your average joe on the board. You have actually experience in a tournament setting were these customs will be used. Isn't that the purpose of the list. Me or you expressing our tournament results at this moment may not change much but it is a start to see how the results of multiple tournament can change the meta. I really hope you do great. Villager is a force to be reckon with.

http://smashboards.com/threads/stuff-n-such-smash-weekly-pm-wiiu-3-1-raleigh-nc.393316/

http://smashboards.com/threads/north-carolina-smash-4-season-1-power-rankings.391577/

This game hasn't even been out a year and people are already placing certain customs as " better" then others without tournament results or gameplay. That caps the growth of any build. It's just one tournament that wasn't even big. But I feel that this build, or any build of your liking, can help the meta evolve in the right direction.

I only been to 3 tournaments so far. I have kept on track with my goal on just placing better than my previous tournament. I won't be at another tournament for 3 weeks. It will be march 22 at sns. Hopefully I can keep keep up with my previous goal of placing better every time and shoot for top 2 next time.

 

[Antonykun]

I was thinking about who has a rather poor edguguarding game against Villager and thus BT>>EBT
//
There's probably more than that though.

 

[Kofu]

Is Super Timber's watering can stronger than the default? I was under the impression that they were all the same.

Is Timber Counter's can similarly different?

 

[Indigo Jeans]

I was thinking about who has a rather poor edguguarding game against Villager and thus BT>>EBT
//
There's probably more than that though.

gorl please, charizard's edgeguarding is pretty good okay with that disjointed BAir

Is Super Timber's watering can stronger than the default? I was under the impression that they were all the same.

Is Timber Counter's can similarly different?

Super watering can applies a higher amount of fixed knockback than standard. Counter watering can applies less.

 

[Kofu]

gorl please, charizard's edgeguarding is pretty good okay with that disjointed BAir

I'd also take Yoshi off the list. I don't want to be on the receiving end of his aerials offstage, especially FAir.

Super watering can applies a higher amount of fixed knockback than standard. Counter watering can applies less.

Cool, shows how much I've actually looked into his customs. I imagine Super Timber can also be used similarly to Duck Hunt's Mega Gunmen to tank projectiles, although it takes a while to set up and is disappointingly short-lived.