PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

[Luigi player]

Captain Falcon shouldn't be any problem for Ness... Can any attack of him go through Ness' fair? Captain Falcons recovery is also very predicable and thus it's very easy to spike him.

 

[Levitas]

CF nair is only slightly worse than ness's fair in terms of priority.

CF's Uair beats everything Ness has from below.

 

[Brinzy]

I'm gonna say 55:45 Ness. Can't really get my full reasoning out right now, though...

I mean, he still has his jab, a bit more range, decent killing power, and speed. He might be a bad character, but it's not like he's an auto-win...

 

[Alphatron]

Falcon has that dair to knee combo on Ness until over 50%(which is the same for every character, so it's not really an advantage).
Cpt. Falcon's decent killing power comes from his laggy attacks. After blocking a short hopped aerial, Cpt. Falcon can actually be hit by another Sh aerial if he attempts to dsmash or fsmash. Raptor boost is as worthless as ever. I'm pretty sure Falcon Kick goes over a grounded PK Fire.

I can't really say many good things about Falcon in this game.

 

[_clinton]

Falcon has that dair to knee combo on Ness until over 50%(which is the same for every character, so it's not really an advantage).
Cpt. Falcon's decent killing power comes from his laggy attacks. After blocking a short hopped aerial, Cpt. Falcon can actually be hit by another Sh aerial if he attempts to dsmash or fsmash. Raptor boost is as worthless as ever. I'm pretty sure Falcon Kick goes over a grounded PK Fire.

I can't really say many good things about Falcon in this game.

Falcon's Falcon Kick does not go over a grounded PK Fire...

Some things I noticed about frame testing with him...
Falcon's Raptor boost, Falcon Kick, and Falcon Dive all have the same start up time as Ganondorf's Flame Chock, Wizard's Foot, and Dark Dive...which is bloody ****ing stupid...

Also...Falcon's air game>his ground game

Also...Raptor Boost's best use is short hopped...on the ground it sort of really sucks...but short hopped right...you have 0 lag landings or so...so think of it as something kind of like Ike's Quick Draw normally...only he has to be in the air close to the ground...

Anyway...

From the Falcon Boards Killing % guide (this was done on the center of Battlefield) * means Ness is right on the average...- some number means Ness is that much below the average...

Utilt-123 (*)

Fair (Sweet Spot)-73 (*)
Bair (Sweet Spot)-111 (*)
Uair (1st hit)-141 (*)...Uair (Sweet Spot)-129 (-1)
Dair (Leg Spot/Spike)-166 (-2)...Dair (Nipple Spot)-94 (*)
Nair (2nd hit)-153 (*)

Fsmash-101 (-1)
Dsmash (Weaker Kick)-109 (*)
Usmash (Both)-103 (-2)

Falcon Punch (Weak)-58 (*)...Reverse Falcon Punch (Weak)-54 (*)
Falcon Dive-150 (-1)
Ground Falcon Kick (Strong)-160 (*)...Aerial Falcon Kick (Strong)-136 (*)

if we needed more proof Ness was a mid weight...we got it now...

Frames these kill moves come out on...

Utilt-17

Fair-14
Bair-10
Dair-16
Uair-6
Nair-7 (1st hit)

Fsmash-18
Dsmash-19
Usmash-22

Reverse Falcon Punch-55-56
Falcon Dive-14
Air Falcon Kick-16

 

[rtype]

guys im still having problems with game and watch

your guys advice didnt help too much. can we please do gw next so we can come up with a nice plan to beat him? i do fine with most of the other characters but game and watch just murders me

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Captain Falcon can release grab (air) ness into a knee. It's inescapable

It's quite easy to spike falcon though, so it's still a solid ness advantage IMO.

 

[Mmac]

Captain Falcon can release grab (air) ness into a knee. It's inescapable

It's quite easy to spike falcon though, so it's still a solid ness advantage IMO.

No he can't actually. I already tested it when it was announced he could, and Ness has enough time to escape by airdodging or jumping away

He can still Uair him on release, and I think UpB too, but not completely sure.

 

[YoshiGuy123]

uhhh where is yoshi on the matchups anyway???

 

[Masky]

Yeah... maybe this thread could focus on some of the more important matchups? Who cares about Captain Falcon?

 

[Ref]

Captain Falcon can release grab (air) ness into a knee. It's inescapable

It's quite easy to spike falcon though, so it's still a solid ness advantage IMO.

Me and Mmac disproved it on the thread that said he could. U air works the thread can still be found somewhere...

Everyone should care about falcon. He's so manly.

And it's probably 55-45 Ness with advantage... Being the only advantage Ness has is aerial priority and projectiles...

Captain falcon can Gimp well that is why this isn't 60-40

 

[PKNintendo]

No he can't actually. I already tested it when it was announced he could, and Ness has enough time to escape by airdodging or jumping away

He can still Uair him on release, and I think UpB too, but not completely sure.

Your a Ninja!

 

[Ref]

Mmac is just fast while I was typing my long post / testing he beat me to the point on the original chain grab thread...

But anyway back to captain falcon... He has potential to become a decent or semi good character. Just takes so long to learn him.

And the match up could go 50-50 or 55-45 Ness advantage.

 

[xoxokev]

well, since were on Captain Falcon, I just wanted to share these vids with you
I found them today while lurking the C. Falcon board

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205747

RebaZ is really amazing with Captain Falcon

 

[_clinton]

****...those videos are pretty good (the 1st one was great...Jab Locked spin attack anyone?)

 

[EdreesesPieces]

I don't know how you guys disproved it. Champ does it to me all the time. No matter how hard I try I cant' get out. I try jumping. air dodging, neutral airing, everything. How exactly did you disprove it? Neither me nor Vicegrip have been able to escape it. You sure the falcon you played fully understood the timing on the knee?

 

[Brinzy]

And it's probably 55-45 Ness with advantage... Being the only advantage Ness has is aerial priority and projectiles...

Absolutely.

 

[PKNintendo]

What about the CF mains, shouldn't we ask them?

 

[Uffe]

What about the CF mains, shouldn't we ask them?

I think it'd be nice if we did.

 

[rtype]

can we do game and watch next?

please????? hes giving me hell

 

[Earthbound Zero]

Game & Watch is hell in a two-dimensional form.

 

[PKSkyler]

can we do game and watch next?

please????? hes giving me hell

My best advice...get a secondary. i picked up Snake for gay man watch, marf, and sometimes meta.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

I picked up Ness for the game and watch matchup O_O Well, i already used him, but i like the matchup enough to get more serious about ness again.

 

[PKSkyler]

I picked up Ness for the game and watch matchup O_O Well, i already used him, but i like the matchup enough to get more serious about ness again.

Really? I hate it. -_- all his aerials own mine,(cept my nair beats his I think.) his smashes are quick and strong, he can dthrow to dsmash, and to make it worse I cant pkt juggle him very well at all....connecting with a pkf just leads to free bucket, basically. On the upside hes light, and a great doubles partner for ness.

Advice?

 

[ViceGrip]

About the cfalcon grab release...if you guys say it's escapable i believe you but i'm more prone to think that most captain falcons just suck at getting the knee off after the grab. I can't get away from it most of the time also when Champ does it.

Gaw is annoying but if you abuse your fair, take advantage of the lag he has ( lag after the bair, fair, dair, in between dsmashes, etc.) with dash grabs and pivoted pk fires you should be racking up damage easy. Then when he gets to 105% you got an easy backthrow. Because gaw is an overall better character than Ness I'd say the matchup is 55-45 in gaw's favor.

 

[ColinJF]

I would agree with the match up being between 50-50 to 55-45 Game & Watch.

There are other things I could say about the match up (and I have said them before), but the main thing is to learn the hitboxes of his moves like the turtle and how many hits it has, and when you can punish what, and so on. It sounds obvious, but Game & Watch more than any other character will really destroy you if you are unfamiliar with him. Chances are, if you are being destroyed by Game & Watch as Ness, he would destroy your other characters as well.

Make sure you know how to tech by the way.

This match up is above average difficulty to learn, but if you are familiar with Game & Watch, it is pretty even.

Ref offered to provide help for specific match ups in his questions thread by the way. I recommend you post there if you are looking for some basic strategy help.

 

[Gaussis]

Knowing everything a character can do is critical to any matchup with Ness. Look at ROB, many people would say that ROB beats out Ness due to an excellent defensive game. Learning ROB would show you otherwise. It is important to learn your opponent as well as learning what Ness can do to him/her.

Looking at Falcon, there isn't much he can do to you except bait and punish, in which he excels. This doesn't mean that you should take this lightly.

 

[cutter]

Not again.

GW/Ness is FAR from a neutral/55-45 GW advantage. GW lays waste to both Earthbound kids. It's not as ridiculous as Marth with grab release abuse and whatnot, but GW hard counters Ness.

 

[Ref]

Not again.

GW/Ness is FAR from a neutral/55-45 GW advantage. GW lays waste to both Earthbound kids. It's not as ridiculous as Marth with grab release abuse and whatnot, but GW hard counters Ness.

We will discuss this later... I see why PK Nintendo's method is good.

 

[ColinJF]

cutter, I know you're looking forward to some theatrics but you don't know what you are talking about and this thread is currently discussing Captain Falcon anyway.

 

[Hylian]

cutter, I know you're looking forward to some theatrics but you don't know what you are talking about and this thread is currently discussing Captain Falcon anyway.

He certainly has a better idea of what he's talking about then you do if you think GW vs Ness is even close to even.

You can try to debate this with me...but I would recommend against it . Accept that your character actually has bad match-ups instead of promoting ignorance.

 

[Ref]

He certainly has a better idea of what he's talking about then you do if you think GW vs Ness is even close to even.

You can try to debate this with me...but I would recommend against it . Accept that your character actually has bad match-ups instead of promoting ignorance.

Wait until the match up is being discussed just show some respect and please do not call peoples opinions as promoting ignorance, without hearing any of their reasons. This is not to be discussed right now.

 

[xoxokev]

i agree with cutter and hylian. bad matchups do exist. the level of skill each player has is a different story.

anyway, back to captain falcon... has anyone noticed that he has a gun, yet he never uses it?

 

[Hylian]

Wait until the match up is being discussed just show some respect and please do not call peoples opinions as promoting ignorance, without hearing any of their reasons. This is not to be discussed right now.

Go read Colins post towards cutter and then get back at me.

Also, I have heard Colin's reasoning behind the match-up. Several times. Please don't assume things.

Keep in mind I didn't go in depth at all because you guys are not discussing this. I just defended someone who's opinion I agree with.

 

[Ref]

I see then, all is well, you may be on your way. This match up will be discussed some later time...

 

[cutter]

If I find something I don't agree with, I will bring that up with my own opinion. Simple as that.

 

[Ref]

Don't worry cutter a time will come when these points will be addressed and opinions will be shared. We understand every person has their opinions.

 

[cutter]

Don't worry cutter a time will come when these points will be addressed and opinions will be shared. We understand every person has their opinions.

I really wouldn't mind discussing GW/Ness right after you guys finish CF then.

 

[_clinton]

You can try to debate this with me...but I would recommend against it . Accept that your character actually has bad match-ups instead of promoting ignorance.

Funny...more of the matches are seen as overall bad match-ups so far...how about that?

 

[Hylian]

Funny...more of the matches are seen as overall bad match-ups so far...how about that?

I wasn't talking to or about you.