Pokédex Entry: Ike

[T-block]

Might as well do that other Fire Emblem guy as well.

 

[Ussi]

Ike vs Squirtle:

Don't get grabbed.... Jab > grab is a common follow up which only missed being a true combo by 1 frame. However getting jabbed from far away normally means you won't get grabbed.

Cg leads to walk fair/dair? And eruption edge guard.

Now getting off flat stages, the CG is usually a positional threat but if you camp the better parts of the stage you shoul be fine... Squirtle has really good movement but it takes time to get to the speed.. (half a second second for those pivot dashs are pretty easy enough to react too)




Ike vs Ivy:

Nuetral B will work on Ike's not jab canceling prefectly and between jab 2 to 1. Just be careful when predicted. Dash attack > bthrow sets up fot edge guard on Ivy. Razor leaf has its uses... Good for getting back on stage least.

Really just think its bthrow > dash attack that makes it disadvantage for Ivy.

Ike vs Zard

Zard is fat and a few% heavier than Ike horizontally. Fly can super armor through walk off dair when timed right. Flamethrower is annoying against aether, but depending on the ledge depends on how bad it is. Like battlefield its the least effective... But on FD its most devasating.

This is mainly a game of prediction so its even ish as Ike and Zard have options for everything they can do to each other


Now to educate myself...

Can rock smash and razor leaf b reversal with some nice mindgame spacing? (like Snake's nade breversal)

 

[T-block]

Yeah they can b-reversal, but it doesn't really do much for spacing.

Ussi, would you happen to know what Ike can do to Squirtle out of a grab release? I feel Ike has a definite advantage over Squirtle - massive hitboxes with long reach are fairly effective against Squirtle's style of play, and strong moves + Squirtle's light weight...

I think Charizard beats Ike soundly. Flamethrower is great, Rock Smash can get you out of jab cancel stuff. Every Ike I play I find it really easy to get in and toss him around.

Ivysaur I'm not so sure... feels like she should be able to wall him off effectively, but it's never really felt like a strong advantage for me.

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

What is the Eruption Edgeguard btw?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Squirtle just gets wrecked by Ike. Jab to lead into grab, grab to air release CG -> walk-off fair or Bthrow -> Dash Attack, we can charge Eruption while you're recovering and hold the charge longer than you can stall and then let it go on reaction for free massive damage, outrange all of Squirtle's moves, use retreating Nair to defend ourselves against your aerial attempts to hit us, we can use retreating Fair in the same way. Both can also be used against ground attempts. Squirtle is a lightweight and will be dying against Ike much later than he can kill Ike. Basically the only thing he has going is his water gun. Considering the new Bthrow -> Dash Attack stuff (Which works for like, a 70% range at least on all characters, 100% guaranteed), and how any time you go off stage, if we're on stage will can hit you with Eruption, I believe the MU is a 7-3 advantage for Ike.

I believe Charizard has a slight advantage over us (45-55, Charizard has Rock Smash and Flamethrower, Ike has greater range, kill power, and Jab 1 -> Jab 1 is a true combo so we don't have to worry about Rock Smash in the middle of that. Same with Bthrow -> Dash Attack), and that we have a slight advantage over Ivysaur (55-45. Bthrow -> Dash Attack again, Ivy has Bullet Seed if we screw up, but if Ivy screws up Bullet Seed it's a free Fsmash). We're in the middle of doing a new batch of MU ratios, so hopefully by Mondayish I can tell you what the Ike board on average believes the MU ratios are.

 

[Ussi]

Eruption outranges Squirtle's Up B snap to the ledge.

Ike vs Squirtle is 6-4 IMO, Niddo is overrating the CG release when it doesn't work on all stages. I find it a threat on most stages, but the stages it doesn't work on aren't the best places to take Ike or for you to go.. (like Brinstar, Frigate is a toss up, RC i find it not working in general.. maybe the ship for 2 grabs and larger flat platforms but other than that...)

I forgot if slants affect the CG release (Yoshi's Island slant).

Zard has great tools against Ike, but he just gets jabbed so much being fat. And he's sooo light for his frame (Just a tiny bit heavier than Ike horizontally) so Zard can't tank so many jabs comparatively. 5-5 IMO

Ivy just get wrecked by bthrow > dash attack getting her offstage. IMO that tips it to 6-4 Ike

 

[Nidtendofreak]

It works on most stages: that's good enough for me. The number of stages where it doesn't work is tiny, and Ike will be able to use it at least on the neutral stage (strike YI if the slant effects it, Lylat, and you're good to go). Even if I can't use it the full stage, or only on the ledge for the free walk-off Fair, it's a great advantage and a constant threat.

So Squirtle has to get in close to land damage, but has to get around the longer range aerials like Fair/Nair/Bair, jab, and the grab shenanigans in either direction. Any damage he deals is easily given back, and he'll be taking extra damage every time he goes a half decent distance off stage.

Squirtle also has to get in close if he wants to land a KO...except most of those are some of his slower moves, causing a greater risk of being grabbed. The only real fast options are Dthrow, and which ever aerial with kick to it that isn't stale. I don't see how Ike doesn't have a big advantage.

 

[Zigsta]

Squirtle definitely doesn't get wrecked by Ike, but getting grabbed can be brutal, as fair is gauranteed on us.

I'll elaborate more later. About to meet with a guy from DreamWorks Animation.

 

[Ingoro]

Squirtle definitely doesn't get wrecked by Ike, but getting grabbed can be brutal, as fair is gauranteed on us.

I'll elaborate more later. About to meet with a guy from DreamWorks Animation.

That's epic Zigsta, have fun

Alright on topic.

Squirtle has a disadvantage against Ike, the grab releasse thing really get's in the way. But I find Squirtle to have better options in the air against ike. I've yet to see that Eruption hit every single time on the ledge.

Ivy has an advantage over Ike. Bthrow to dash attack might be great to get her offstage, but doesn't the dash attack have some afterlag? enough time to tether. Ivy outranges Ike with Bair and has a projectle to keep him off. If jabs are predicted they will be countered with bullet seed.

Charizard has an disadvantage against Ike. Okay, I think chari's "good" spacing moves like flamethrower and rock smash are beaten by the range of a proper Fair by Ike. Close up won't work either since Ike's jabs are faster. In the air Chari get's outclassed.


That's my first point of view, will edit this post in more details later.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I've yet to see that Eruption hit every single time on the ledge.

That's because it just became widely known to us like about a week ago. >_>

But I find Squirtle to have better options in the air against ike

Does Squirtle have any aerials that are disjointed enough to get past Nair? If he doesn't I'm going to have to think he doesn't really have much in the way of options in the air. Not unless he got in the air close enough to Ike that we don't have time to Nair, in which case you were/are probably within Jab range.

but doesn't the dash attack have some afterlag? enough time to tether. Ivy outranges Ike with Bair and has a projectle to keep him off.

Dash Attack has some ending lag, but not much. If we've sent you far enough off stage that you need to jump before tethering, we can grab the ledge in time. And Ike's Fair > Ivy's Bair in range, so Ivy does not outrange us. Jab eats up Razor Leaf, though it does have a small use in interrupting Ike's slower moves if Ivy is facing forwards and has enough time to throw one out there.

 

[CoonTail]

Alright this is one matchup I've known for a while because of Ryko and San whenev I see him.

Vs Ike:
Squirtle- Has the same bad time he does against any other character because of grab releases. Ike < Marth in his grab releases against squirtle so we should be typically playing the don't get grabbed game. Next Ike's jab is not what it's cracked up to be......it can be cancelled by squirt's jab 1 and his f-tilt which is squirt's way to stay out of grab range with that constant spacing check. Also you can DI Ike's jab 1 up and get away from alot of nonsense if you have any percent over like 40ish. Next is the fact that Ike's retreating F-air or n-air all can be powershielded from dash real easy and Ike will follow up with jabs if you get to close which yet again can be handedled. Lastly once squirtle gets one aerial or tilt in against Ike, he gets walled and juggled pretty hard. Ike has nothing special against up-tilts or getting walled by f-air and bair. Watergun is so good here because you can push Ike offstage or finish a b-air/f-air wall with it.
Overall I really dont see the 7:3 here marth gets it from his walling and amazing grab options.....Ike doesn't, I barely see the matchup in Ike's favor i say 55:45 squirt

Ivy: Ivy can struggle against Ike here since he has such great knockback in general. Saving Ivy's second jump on stage and playing cautiously is very important. Jab 1 > grab > b-throw > Dash attack is rough as hell for Ivy I've gotten gimped by ryko and san real easy I mean they love Ivy because of that. Overall Ivy changes alot in this matchup for me its more baiting. B-air is faster than Ike's retreating options when up close which forces jabs. DI'ing a jab 1 up with Ivy into B-reverse bullet seed is gorgeous because Ivy lands with Ike in the middle of the stream. Razor leaf is just something to see if Ike reacts to it, most of the time Ryko just ignores razor leaf by power shielding it because he know's wasting the time jabbing it and the lag of the clink could mean Ivy getting a hold of him, so razor leaf is more of a distraction. The biggest thing I see Ivy having is if you n-air spike an Ike the meteor cancel obvously and we can f-smash Ike out of Aether because if they go above the sweetspot all we need is to tilt up and if they sweetspot we just have to tilt down and hit them right before they grab the edge. If you roll from the teetering animation from the edge that is the furthest point we can hit Ike at the edge with f-smash. Here its an obvious 6:4 Ike's favor.

Zard: Zard can do quite a bit in this matchup but minor mistakes here result in a huge punishment due to Zard's size and Ike's ability to handle fattie's well. To start Ike's whole jab game can be stopped by well placed RockSmash counter attacks. If Ike's jab connects Zard has nothing but if you start to see the jab's coming (which becomes a bit obvious once you learn the range and the fact that Ike's get jab happy with zard on the field) RS counter attack the jab's result in Ike eating about 14-18% normally along with resetting Zard's spacing. Zard's aerials go the same way as Ike's figuring Sweetspot b-air from zard functions like Ike's f-air, Zard's nair doesnt have the range Ike's nair does but it does autocancel the way Ikes does, and Zard's f-air is like Ike's b-air due to sweetspot f-air knockback. Next is Zard's grab and grab release game on Ike because it comes down to very few options as Ike gets grab released. Ike players get alot of confidence in their jab and its quick so shieldgrabbing out of GR on Ike vs predicting a spot dodge is the major decision for a regrab. Zard's grabs are big setups to (b-throw > re-grab > b-throw which sets up for f-air or b-air). Flame thrower spaces real well along with b-reverse flamethrower being a big help to get on stage. Overall I have to say I only list zard's aerials next to Ike because in the air both characters aerials are devestating. Both characters are very equal on killing each other.....Ike's jab-grab game vs Zard's grab release/grab game, Ike's aerials vs. Zard's aerials, and Ike's spacing game vs Zard's spacing game leaves this fight a blantant 5:5.

Overall I think the fight is basically a 50:50 after average because we drop Ivy's 4:6 and keep Zard's 5:5 and squirt's 55:45.

 

[Zigsta]

I have a quick break, so let me just say Eruption on the ledge wrecks recovering Squirtle. Bored does it to me a lot and gets credit for first using it against Squirtle.

I'll elaborate more later.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

*sigh*

Also you can DI Ike's jab 1 up and get away from alot of nonsense if you have any percent over like 40ish. Next is the fact that Ike's retreating F-air or n-air all can be powershielded from dash real easy and Ike will follow up with jabs if you get to close which yet again can be handedled. Lastly once squirtle gets one aerial or tilt in against Ike, he gets walled and juggled pretty hard. Ike has nothing special against up-tilts or getting walled by f-air and bair. Watergun is so good here because you can push Ike offstage or finish a b-air/f-air wall with it.
Overall I really dont see the 7:3 here marth gets it from his walling and amazing grab options.....Ike doesn't, I barely see the matchup in Ike's favor i say 55:45 squirt

*backhands you*

Anytime I see "just PS his aerials", It means the person actually has no clue what to do against Ike and is throwing out random crap. In reality, those moves don't get PS'd often. If you honestly think that the MU is 55:45 because you can "just PS his aerials" and "DI his jab" (Hint: DIing up means it's even easier to hit you with Utilt out of jab, so that's a VERY stupid idea.) There is a reason you never bring up PSing in a MU discussion: nobody can be perfectly consitant(sp?) with it, and most people are far from consitant(sp?) with it. It's not a viable option to discuss in MU discussions.

Up Tilts? You need to see Mr.Doom's SDI video against Fox's Utilt combo stuff. While not typical, you can get out of that stuff. Oh, it will tack on damage for sure, but it's not going to suddenly drop it down to 55:45.

Aerial wall? How is your Fair or Bair going to get past our Nair, Bair, or Fair? All of those outrange yours, and Bair/Nair have no landing lag/about 2 frames of landing lag respectively. You can't "wall" us if you can't hit us without trading hits or simply being kept out by superior range. Even jab will force a trade of hits. Hit us with a tilt? We jump back, Fair to stop you from landing a follow up, and we're back to square one. Squirtle isn't Wario, he can't even in and out of our moves.

And I hadn't even listed all of our options against Squirtle out of an air release. We don't need to regrab: we could also Dash Attack you if we didn't feel like going for another regrab and then walk-off fair, or didn't think the spacing was right for it.

It was in the 65-35 range before we learned about the Bthrow->Dash Attack or Eruption stuff, how on earth would it suddenly drop down to 55-45? We can easily rack up damage on Squirtle, easily disrupt his approaches, easily tack on free damage for forcing him to recover: I don't see anything less than 65-35 being a possibility. :/

 

[CoonTail]

*sigh*



*backhands you*

Anytime I see "just PS his aerials", It means the person actually has no clue what to do against Ike and is throwing out random crap. In reality, those moves don't get PS'd often. If you honestly think that the MU is 55:45 because you can "just PS his aerials" and "DI his jab" (Hint: DIing up means it's even easier to hit you with Utilt out of jab, so that's a VERY stupid idea.) There is a reason you never bring up PSing in a MU discussion: nobody can be perfectly consitant(sp?) with it, and most people are far from consitant(sp?) with it. It's not a viable option to discuss in MU discussions.

Up Tilts? You need to see Mr.Doom's SDI video against Fox's Utilt combo stuff. While not typical, you can get out of that stuff. Oh, it will tack on damage for sure, but it's not going to suddenly drop it down to 55:45.

I bring up power shielding because even with retreating Ike does not have fast aerial's thats why I even bring it up in a matchup discussion. You can powershield retreating f-air quite simply tbh and your right n-air is a diff story. Also you are gonna have a real hard time hitting a squirtle with u-tilt if we DI a jab up with squirtles aerial mobility we can either Air dodge or just hold back to get out of range. Ike's up-tilt comes out on what frame because it like Ike is not that fast.

As far as up-tilts go yes I did see the video and even so your at a lose once you get out because we can grab you, f-tilt you, or even pivot grab if you just throw your shield up. And it won't make the matchup 55:45 it is just going to make one up-tilt turn into a combo or string.

Aerial wall? How is your Fair or Bair going to get past our Nair, Bair, or Fair? All of those outrange yours, and Bair/Nair have no landing lag/about 2 frames of landing lag respectively. You can't "wall" us if you can't hit us without trading hits or simply being kept out by superior range. Even jab will force a trade of hits. Hit us with a tilt? We jump back, Fair to stop you from landing a follow up, and we're back to square one. Squirtle isn't Wario, he can't even in and out of our moves.

You keep saying how are we gonna get in......my friend your aerials are not that fast outside of n-air covering your entirely and auto-cancelling. It's not like I pull this out of nowhere I have played very good Ike's and seriously outside of n-air it doesn't take much to land a f-air or b-air due to squirtle's shell shifting and hydro planing. You say squirtle can move in and out of your moves like wario. Have you seen squirtles shell shifting and hydro-planing. It makes getting on Ike alot easier and the only real way to slow it down is Ike's N-air. I will admit thats Ike's n-air slows squirtle quite a bit but that's mainly it

And I hadn't even listed all of our options against Squirtle out of an air release. We don't need to regrab: we could also Dash Attack you if we didn't feel like going for another regrab and then walk-off fair, or didn't think the spacing was right for it.

Yet again these options aren't even close to how devestating marth's is so all we need is to watch out for grabs like marth with less worry.

It was in the 65-35 range before we learned about the Bthrow->Dash Attack or Eruption stuff, how on earth would it suddenly drop down to 55-45? We can easily rack up damage on Squirtle, easily disrupt his approaches, easily tack on free damage for forcing him to recover: I don't see anything less than 65-35 being a possibility. :/

I don't get how you had it at a 65:35 without those tactics let along with them. One relies on a grab thats going to be hard enough to land because squirtle players know how bad his grab releases are so thats gonna be difficult. Let me ask you this if you so sure you can land grabs and force us to recover, if a squirtle proceeded to watergun camp Ike what are you really gonna do to land a grab or force us offstage. None of your aerials are gonna help their or your jab, especially with you being offstage not being the best place for Ike. I dont see how this is a 65:35 at all.

I understand you pointing out Ike's strengths but I just do not see a 65:35 here when marth is a 7:3 sorry man Ike is not one of squirtles worst matchups.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike's Utilt is frame 11 IIRC
Jab 1 has 9 frames of hit stun.

Do the Math. You have to be frame perfect to AD in time.

You can not easily PS Fair. If pro's can't consistently do it, you can't either. Nor can you PS it if you are trying to get to us through the air. And why would only Nair give you trouble, if Bair has the same amount of range horizontally, but even less landing lag, while coming out even faster?

Once we get out of the Utilt string, we can just jump away, once again covering ourselves with an aerial.

I've seen Shell Shifting and the like: those are ground approaches, not aerial approaches like I was talking about. Wario doesn't weave around moves on the ground. Heck, I've gone up against someone using them before. Didn't phase me much, it just meant I had to make sure I was retreating fully when using Fair.

How are the grab release stuff/Back Throw stuff not devastating, if it gets you off stage, and forces you to eat another 24ish% from Eruption? (going from memory on the damage there...). Jab 1 -> Grab -> Bthrow -> Dash Attack -> Eruption for example, assuming we went for that one, is 3 + 6 + 12 + 24 = 45% damage. I could add on another Jab 1 for 3%, or maybe a pummel if this was out a grab release so there is no back throw, but you get the general idea. One string and you're in KOing range. Walk-off Fair also puts Squirtle in an extremely bad position if he's had some damage before hand. If he's had too much damage, he's not making it back due to being off stage and then hit even farther away without much upwards velocity from the hit. If he's had less than that, he's likely to get edgehogged.

Watergun camping does nothing against Ike. Does no damage. Yippee, you pushed us back. You can't do anything with that on stage except force the battle to be neutral again. If it's off stage, you're going to be most likely too far to even attempt an edgehog.

I'm sorry, but Squirtle is one of Ike's easiest MUs, right up there with Ganondorf.

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

Water Gun camping actually helps because it puts Ike closer to the edge where it reduces your options (This is of course when Ike is in the sequence of using Fair or Nair.)

 

[Ussi]

Correcting Niddo on some Numbers that are just ridiculously off

*sigh*



Bair/Nair have no landing lag/about 2 frames of landing lag respectively.

bair auto cancels on a short hop but only when its retreating is it ever safe with its -27 disadvantage. Nair has a 9 frame landing lag. If it was 2 frames, Olimar would be easy to shield pressure.

Ike's Utilt is frame 11 IIRC
Jab 1 has 9 frames of hit stun.

Utilt is frame 13

Jab 1 has 7 frames of stun at the least (jump only)

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Nair's landing lag looks roughly the same as Ike's jab time

And I was talking about auto-canceling the Bair, I thought that would have been self explanatory. >_>

I remembered the max hitstun of Jab 1 being 2 frames less than Utilt's frame activation. Apparently, I need less going by memory, more looking up stuff instead of cramming it into a post before I need to go, lol.

Look, I'm not close minded about the Squirtle MU, but I'm not seeing stuff that changes my opinion. If any other PT mains feel that it's not 7-3 for Ike, sing out.

 

[AN(M)ist]

Wut the... what kind of sword is Ike holding in the pic at OP? He ain't marth. Get a pic with ragnell.

EDIT: sorry about that. Just wanna mention one thing in squirtle match up, a PT main at my place uses withdraw for recovery, withdraw especially from offstage is not recommended for squirtle at all since Ike's aerials put squirtle in a very bad place. And about shell shifting, it becomes fairly obvious when squirtle starts going to and fro, and I've pivot grabbed a PT main in my place many times out of it.

 

[Magik0722]

this matchup is bad for pokemon trainer
35-65 for squirtle
55-45 for ivy
50-50 for charizard

ikes aerials shield push squirtle far away and makes them difficult to punish
it wouldnt be so bad if squirtles dash speed wasnt so horrible.

grab release shenanigans.

The weight difference also comes into play and gets worse with fatigue.

Well at least we have water gun gimps.

with ivy just play it like any other matchup with the idea of staying at the center of the stage as much as possible, there really isnt any tips i can give about this matchup that isnt already the general strategy of ivysuar.

Charizard is funny in this matchup, sometimes he destroys ike other times he gets destroyed. I find charizard the easiest of the 3 pokemon to get gimps on ike with fair. Charizard grabs range is what makes this matchup even, it gives ike a harder time approaching. While playing as charizard you need to worry about upB penalty, charizard has some of the worst upB penalty in the game, while land with upB penalty the ike has enough time to land a fsmash even after you have already landed on the floor.

 

[Ussi]

Ivy vs Ike seems to be the biggest difference we have between us all. Its ranging from Ike 6-4 to Ivy 55-45


While in sense it looks like Ivy might be fine, but that bthrow > dash attack > gimp is kinda ridiculous in how easy it is to set up. Which makes it very hard for me to see Ivy having an adv over Ike.

 

[T-block]

Some things to note - Ike has the same dash speed as Squirtle, so obviously Ivysaur and Charizard have faster dash speeds (although Ivysaur not by much). Ike falls pretty fast (7th in the game for fall speed) with a mediocre air speed (slower than Charizard's).

65-35 Ike over Squirtle seems like a solid conclusion, from both sides. Ice_coon, do you have anything else to say? I just feel it's very hard for Squirtle to even get in with those hitboxes, and every failed attempt hurts so much.

This is a matchup where Ivysaur is really hurt by her low aerial mobility. Ike's f-air outranged her b-air, but that wouldn't be a problem (ie- b-air would still be able to outspace it) if she could actually move in the air, since it comes out so much faster, and hits twice. Even avoiding getting grabbed is difficult for her unless she has platforms to work with. I don't think b-throw > dash attack is going to break the matchup though... Ivy has dealt with worse. On the other hand, being slow in the air doesn't mean you can't wall at all - just that you have to be smarter with it. The range difference isn't that big between her b-air and Ike's f-air, and Ike's aerial mobility isn't exactly stellar either. I'm not sure on this, but don't tether characters have an easier time edgeguarding Ike? We're able to steal the edge while being safe from Aether, and Ivysaur has the longest tether in the game. I kinda wanna label this as 50-50.

For Charizard, yeah up-b penalty sucks especially hard against Ike, but it shouldn't move the advantage away from Charizard. I would say dash speed along with grab range really help Charizard here. These two traits make it difficult for Ike to space against Charizard, and make it difficult to approach if Charizard has room to run. Flamethrower is really effective in this matchup as well. Recovering against Ike is painful though.

 

[Zigsta]

There's no way Ike's 65-35 against Squirtle. That's close to 70-30, which is basically a nice way of saying "hard counter."

Don't be dumb and attack Ike head-on. Get Ike in the air and take advantage of his blind spot, then camp him with Squirtle. If you just Water Gun camp Ike, he doesn't have great tools to approach you.

Always have a Water Gun charged against Ike, especially when you're offstage. If Ike goes for the Eruption KO, push him back with Water Gun.

Agreed with Ike-Charizard being 50-50 for the reasons previously stated.

I go back and forth on Ivysaur, but I'd say it's 55-45 in Ike's favor.

Bottom line, if your Squirtle is getting wrecked by Ike, you're not camping hard enough.

60-40 Ike's favor.

 

[AN(M)ist]

This is a matchup where Ivysaur is really hurt by her low aerial mobility. Ike's f-air outranged her b-air, but that wouldn't be a problem (ie- b-air would still be able to outspace it) if she could actually move in the air, since it comes out so much faster, and hits twice. Even avoiding getting grabbed is difficult for her unless she has platforms to work with. I don't think b-throw > dash attack is going to break the matchup though... Ivy has dealt with worse. On the other hand, being slow in the air doesn't mean you can't wall at all - just that you have to be smarter with it. The range difference isn't that big between her b-air and Ike's f-air, and Ike's aerial mobility isn't exactly stellar either. I'm not sure on this, but don't tether characters have an easier time edgeguarding Ike? We're able to steal the edge while being safe from Aether, and Ivysaur has the longest tether in the game. I kinda wanna label this as 50-50.

For Charizard, yeah up-b penalty sucks especially hard against Ike, but it shouldn't move the advantage away from Charizard. I would say dash speed along with grab range really help Charizard here. These two traits make it difficult for Ike to space against Charizard, and make it difficult to approach if Charizard has room to run. Flamethrower is really effective in this matchup as well. Recovering against Ike is painful though.

Ivysaur:
I don't see how Bthrow>DA doesn't change the MU. For ivy, eating 13-14% (not adding pummels which do extra 3%) AND being sent offstage is a big factor imo. Good Ikes won't stop at Bthrow DA combo and miss the oppurtunity to follow offstage or gimp Ivy. Ivy's aerials aren't a threat to Ike like metaknight's and as far as I know, Ivy's air speed is a lot slower than Ike's. Perhaps you're unaware of the distance DA throws you off? well DA kills at like 160+ near the ledge of FD (w/o DI) so you can calculate the knockback from there. And no, characters with tethers do not have an easy gimp on Ike because reverse aether hits them when they attempt to tether grab offstage.

Charizard:
Advantage could have gone to charizard if he wasn't so big. Being big means highly susceptible to jab cancel shenanigans. Charizard has multiple jumps but his weight gives him alot less height than pit, also his glide is kinda lulzy, all of which makes him open for aetherspike as well.

 

[T-block]

It'll affect the MU for sure, but it doesn't make it suddenly stacked against Ivy. I guess I'm so used to factoring gimping into the matchup. But maybe I am underestimating DA's knockback. Ivy can tether the ledge from really far out - out of the range of even reverse Aether.

Ike does NOT have jab cancel shenanigans on Charizard. The rock from Rock Smash appears on frame 3, and if you hit it it explodes. I don't know what you can do out of a jab cancel, but I know your options are actually fairly limited. I'm pretty sure jab cancel into another jab will get you Rock Smash'd.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Jab 1 -> Jab 1 is a true combo: you will not get Rock Smash out in time, too much hitstun. We could probably do Jab 1 -> Grab safely because that won't activate the rock as far as I know.

And Dash Attack has a decent amount of knockback. Probably in the top ranks for horizontal knockback of dash attacks.

 

[T-block]

If we're spamming Rock Smash, jab > grab will work. Jab2 > Jab1 isn't true combo, right? I know I've Rock Smash'd out of that... do Ike's even do that anymore?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Jab 2 > Jab 1? I do if I mess up, and on some characters it allows for combat walking due to Jab 2 missing and resetting for Jab 1 in a funky thingy, but that's only Ganondorf and Zelda it works on. Most of the time no, if you see Jab 2, Jab 3 will follow. Unless we're trying a mix-up or something like that.

 

[AN(M)ist]

It'll affect the MU for sure, but it doesn't make it suddenly stacked against Ivy. I guess I'm so used to factoring gimping into the matchup. But maybe I am underestimating DA's knockback. Ivy can tether the ledge from really far out - out of the range of even reverse Aether.

Ike does NOT have jab cancel shenanigans on Charizard. The rock from Rock Smash appears on frame 3, and if you hit it it explodes. I don't know what you can do out of a jab cancel, but I know your options are actually fairly limited. I'm pretty sure jab cancel into another jab will get you Rock Smash'd.

If Ivysaur is that far from the ledge then I don't think Ike would bother doing reverse aether. Just hanging on to the ledge should suffice.

Jab cancel shenanigans are hard to even SDI 'cause we can just go ahead and finish the combo for a 12% plus damage and there's nothing that stops us from finishing the combo; but your point still stands. However, like niddo pointed out, Ike's jab also lead to grab from which we can pummel, dthrow, bthrow or fthrow to put you in a Ike friendly position.

Jab 2 to 1 is not a true combo but I believe there are only a few characters who can do any attack b/w that time frame. You'll have to point out something more prominant to say that Charizard has an advantage.

 

[T-block]

I'm probably gonna have trouble explaining this... when Ivysaur sees Ike drop low to attempt to Aether to the edge, she jumps out, past the range of reverse Aether. Once he uses Aether, she tethers the ledge to steal it from him. If he lands on the stage, she snaps back and gets a free u-air.

All right, well I'm pretty sure Charizard can Rock Smash out of Jab2 > Jab1. I don't think it's Charizard advantage because of Rock Smash over jab cancel lol... it's Charizard advantage because his dash speed and grab range make it very hard for Ike to keep Charizard away, while those same things, along with Flamethrower, make it hard for Ike to approach. The range on Charizard's moves is significant too, even if nothing reaches as far as Ike's f-air.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Why would we run off the stage, drop down, and aether it if we can just, you know, speedhug the ledge or w/e that's called? >_>

 

[T-block]

I'm talking about Ivysaur edgeguarding Ike now.

 

[AN(M)ist]

Lets see here: Ivy jumps offstage to do tether, trying to be as far as possible from the ledge so as to not get reverse aethered to oblivion but sending ike down to his doom.

The way I see it, Ivy can't go very far with her air speed and be actually safe from reverse aether, and I have never seen a match where jumping offstage to steal the ledge by tether grabbing is ever consistent (slight exception was in the case of samus VS M2k in LT tourney but then, M2K learned to land onstage so the whole match wasn't a big LOL). We should prolly wait till I do some testing on this on Monday/Tuesday. But as far as my point of view goes, Ike's reverse aether is an effective answer to tethers.

I've done spot-dodge SHbair on Charizard when I read the dash to grab and it worked quite well. The conditions which allowed me to dodge in time were landing with a nair and bair and the time when charizard shielded the back of my upsmash and got pushed away a fair distance.

I'll get back to you with more on the charizard matchup. Gimme some time.

EDIT: This popped up in my mind - wut all tools does Ivy have to effectively send Ike offstage? I mean if Ivy's tether does turn out to be so effective, then Ivy would also be needing tools to consistently send Ike so far offstage.

 

[Geenareeno]

Fsmash and Bthrow. Also ftilt if you're very close to the edge. Not sure how easy it is to hit Ike with those moves. Also i'm not sure if this applies to your arguement but do you know about ivy's AT Instant Tether? She can just jump off the edge and ledgeguard right away. But idk what Reverse Aether is so i can't really be sure if it relates to what we are talking about.

 

[T-block]

She doesn't really have any single move to send Ike very far off-stage... she tends to kill vertically. The way I picture it in my head is some move that just pushes Ike off-stage and then using b-air to take his double jump and force him to use a B-move to recover.

 

[AN(M)ist]

Well if that's the case then I highly doubt tether is going to have an impact on the MU. Ike will be sending Ivy offstage more times than Ivy sending Ike and Ike being a heavy weight also means he won't be dying from vertical kills anytime soon. Still have to wait till mon/tue about that tether range bit though, since I only get to play the PT main here at college free time.

Now for some things on charizards MU:

We already discussed about jab and rocksmash and I suppose everyone agrees that though Ike has less options out of jab cancel for charizard, they are still there any they do hurt charizard since he is easy for Ike to jab (big hurtbox + really fast jabs) and Ike already does 16% damage without any jab cancels and 16+pummel% with jab>grab>bthrow>DA. One more thing I like to throw in here, although this requires us to constantly keep an eye on Zard and do a bit of baiting, Zard's rocksmash can be countered (Ike's downB) by Ike on reaction so whatever damage you intend to give us, we'll return by multiplying it by ~0.2.

Charizards flamethrower does not really disrupt Ike's approach. Its more like a hindrance since we can always back out and jump/double jump in with a spaced fair which is safe against charizard on shield and is outranged by none of your ground moves or aerials. spaced nair is also a good option against flamethrower from above because of nair's around-the-world hitbox and negligible landing lag. As far as using flamethrower on a recovering Ike goes, Ike can aether zard out of flame thrower from below if zard doesn't space right and even with spacing his flamethrower diminishes after a short while so its nothing consistent.

Coming over to dash attack and grabs. Ike is not hard pressed to approach charizard and can always resort to retreating nairs fairs and RAR bairs to counter zards ground speed. Zard's grab is long but then again, Ike has range and is deadly at close combats and missed grabs (especially dash grabs) will always get punished by Ike (one of his fastest punishment is SH bair which has a really high killing potential). Ike's double jump, SH nair, fairs are his moves of choice when he approaches charizard. His also has shield/dodge dashing capability which is really good for PSing/evading attacks and then pushing in jabs/grabs.

Honestly, I do not believe charizard has an advantage on Ike. The most this MU can push towards is 50:50 if charizard reads/outsmarts Ike's moves successfully and retaliates with his speed and brute strength.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Rock smash startup = 24
Counter startup = 11
Human reaction time to something they're expecting = ~15

You need a pretty good reaction time + a soft read to do that

 

[AN(M)ist]

Yes, and that's where baiting comes into play. the main reason I added counter with jab cancel is because Ike's jabs (jab 1 cancel or jab 2 cancel) can be used as a bait for charizard to pull out his rock, and when we see the rock, we downB asap (jab cancel requires us to press the down button so it's simply the matter of seeing the rock and pressing B).

Ike's counter is meant for reads and slower moves. Its never to be used unless there is a high chance for it to hit. There are gimmicks too but that isn't important here.

EDIT: counter startup is somewhere around 10 frames according to kirk. Not that it really matters but who knows. That frame data for counter is always iffy imo. As far as my testing goes, I've pulled out a counter whenever I kept a hard eye on charizard and his rock.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Eh, I might try Jab -> Counter once if I feel the Charizard is getting a bit Rock Smash happy, just to put him in his place. Other wise I feel it's not particularly reliable.

Though I will say that human reaction time is faster than 15 frames. People in that one tactical topic were getting faster times then that, and people are even faster when in a tournament.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

In that topic you were waiting for a specific color to appear, in a match there are always like 100 other options you need to consider, besides that, the visual effect is less overwhelming.