Pokédex Entry: Ike

[T-block]

The thing is, if the b-throw always puts you on the ground before the DA hits, you're not going to be able to SDI down.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

If you watch the video I posted, it also shows exactly how this combo works. The characters all go through that set of motions as far as I know. :/

That, and you can't SDI or DI the throw. No tumble = no control of movement at all.

 

[AN(M)ist]

I suppose you can SDI towards Ike so that you go less far than initially. So for SDI/DI stuff, I think its best to SDI towards and DI up when you get hit by Ike's DA.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

No, you can't. You can't SDI or DI throws unless you're in tumble. No tumble = no SDI. Thats why the combos work. You have no control at all until it's past those %s.

 

[T-block]

Yeah, you can't input DI on moves that don't send into tumble. That's why Falco's CG works until certain percents.

My point was that if you are placed on the ground before the dash attack hits, you won't be able to SDI down. If you are in the air when it connects, you should be able to SDI down to bounce and tether. You should even be able to tech.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

If you hit the ground, I'm fairly sure you could tech in time to avoid the Dash Attack. I believe Dash Attack hits like 1 frame before you hit the ground, though good luck SDIing it into the ground consistently. I don't even know if you can SDI far enough to do so. : /

 

[AN(M)ist]

What I was saying: When you get hit by DA of the bthrow>DA combo, you can attempt to SDI towards and DI up so that you have greater chances to not get in a bad position offstage.

 

[Steeler]

this is 6:4 overall ike favor imo

evidence: i play mr. doom

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You're all crazy.

 

[SuSa]

You're all crazy.

I don't even know this matchup very well and I'm agreeing with this....

 

[T-block]

Input sir.

WE NEED INPUT

 

[SuSa]

Frame data, start comparing it.

You can find out what moves Ike can punish based on how safe it is on block. You can also find out which of Ike's moves you can punish OoS.

Of course, since you guys have to do this for 3 characters I feel sorry for you all.

Spoiler

Ivysaurs probably your best bet for this matchup While Squirtle has speed and juggling, Squirtle's simply outreached. Charizard can hold his own if you play defensive and watch out for Jab/Grab shenanigans.

.

 

[Geenareeno]

I honestly think flamethrower makes the matchup in Charizard's favour just by like 55 or maybe 60. What do you guys think about flamethrower and Ike? (I know this was discussed a while back but not extensively enough.)

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Frame data, start comparing it.

You can find out what moves Ike can punish based on how safe it is on block. You can also find out which of Ike's moves you can punish OoS.

Of course, since you guys have to do this for 3 characters I feel sorry for you all.

You're dangerously approaching A2 level of theory crafting. There is only so much that you can do with pure frame data. Gotta use reality as well.

 

[SuSa]

Frame data is frame data. Then you just have to have knowledge of your moves range and apply your general knowledge of that.

Using pure facts is not theorycraft. It's facts. If your move has 14 frames of endlag, I can OoPS dash attack you [if frame perfect] if you [frame perfectly] shield my attack.

(OoPS = Out of Power Shield)

That's not theorycraft... that's fact.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=288543

 

[Nidtendofreak]

If you use pure frame data, Ike should almost have no MUs in his advantage. You can block basically anything Ike does that isn't Jab on reaction. D3 should land nothing but Jab, Bair, and Grab. Bowser should land jab and Up B, that's it.

Reality proves this to be not only false, but a very stupid way to go around MU discussions. It makes you ignorant to what will actually happen. It doesn't account for the human factor in match ups. Obviously you use a lot of frame data, but you can't rely solely on it: it simply does not work. You can't go in thinking "well, every time he attempts to use X move, I'll block it and then punish with Y". You can think "every time he uses X move, I'll attempt to shield and punish with Y", but you also need to add "if X hits, I'll need to do Z".

 

[SuSa]

Did I state to follow the frame data like a bible?

Read my thread before you pass judgement on how I'm using the data.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I have. In that topic, you are talking in highly general terms. Here you are stating as a fact that PT should be punishing most of Ike's moves when that simply does not happen. You haven't even considered shield push in conjunction with the lag of the move/shield stun (as if this game has much of that), or how far back you'll be when the move hits your shield. Ike does have huge range after all, much more in particularly than Squirtle.

Once you put a number to it (14 frames), you were headed in the wrong direction.

 

[SuSa]

Shield Push? On mah power shieldz? Shield stun? On mah power shieldz? Shield slide? On mah power shieldz?

It's to show options for when you are able to power shield. Power shielding happens often in this game it's easy to powershield attacks. I am not saying you will power shield every attack always but knowing your options for when you do it helps.

Also, again if you really did read my topic, you would have noticed my statement of "Characters should know the range of their attacks and if they are viable against the attack at certain distances". This isn't something frame data can provide, but common sense can. If your jab can technically counter Ike's Fair, it's going to depend entirely on how poorly that fair was just spaced. That's something you have to take into consideration yourself.

I said PT should be looking into their available options on powershield as to open up their mixup game.

Read more, assume less.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You can find out what moves Ike can punish based on how safe it is on block. You can also find out which of Ike's moves you can punish OoS.

That phrase is not normally used for power shielding. That is normal shielding. For example: "Bowser's Up B is amazing OoS." They ain't talking just about power shielding there now are they?

And punishes out of a power shield is even more worthless to talk about, as nobody consistently power shields. It's actually a fairly rare event: normal shielding happens way more often. You also have to account for human reaction to realizing that they have in fact PSed the move, as nobody is going to fully expect to PS something. Too small of window to be fully confident, so that adds a delay. Punishment options out of PS are simply a given for any MU, not anything that changes a MU ratio.

You were also the one who, again, mentioned 14 frames with no reference to anything else. What on earth can Squirtle do in 14 frames against say a properly spaced Fair, while accounting for travel time and reaction time to a PS?

 

[SuSa]

Do I need to go find videos to show you the amount of power shielding that takes place in this game? It's a stupidly high amount compared to Melee. Stupidly high.

You're also negating to think about the very things you mentioned. Prediction and reading opponents. A human factor. Do you think people can honestly "react" to MK's dsmash (IIRC, first hitbox is under 10 frames, average human reaction speed is 12 frames)? Or do you think they predict the dsmash and shield? If you know you're going to be shielding - and likely powershielding - why not get ready to continue that beyond just powershielding and incorporate your moves to counter said attack?

I mentioned 14 frames as an example of Snake's dash attack (soonest IIRC is 13, I gave it a range of 13-15 because I'm uncertain the soonest frame you can dash attack from a dash animation. I chose 14 for my reference)

I don't know, I haven't looked at frame data Nid. That's why I suggested doing it. If there's no option - look into other things.

See:

Meta Knight's Ftilt - Snake's Options:

We have nothing on this broken *** move (it's broken due to how it can be seperated and called upon, and it's practically impossible to tell when these windows "close" and the move cannot be continued) so your best option is to attempt to retreat or do anything in your power that you think will work.

 

[Geenareeno]

I agree, it's so easy to powersheild in this game, and you can tell most of the time when you are going to do it.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

You were also the one who, again, mentioned 14 frames with no reference to anything else. What on earth can Squirtle do in 14 frames against say a properly spaced Fair, while accounting for travel time and reaction time to a PS?

I have. In that topic, you are talking in highly general terms. Here you are stating as a fact that PT should be punishing most of Ike's moves when that simply does not happen. You haven't even considered shield push in conjunction with the lag of the move/shield stun (as if this game has much of that), or how far back you'll be when the move hits your shield. Ike does have huge range after all, much more in particularly than Squirtle.

Once you put a number to it (14 frames), you were headed in the wrong direction.

This makes it sound like Squirtle has nothing on Ike from a spaced Fair. I am a bit confused on that.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

This makes it sound like Squirtle has nothing on Ike from a spaced Fair. I am a bit confused on that.

He has very little just from standing there, watching Fair just miss him. Add in shield drop time from shielding it, and I'm fairly sure it's next to nothing, if not nothing. : \

Do I need to go find videos to show you the amount of power shielding that takes place in this game? It's a stupidly high amount compared to Melee. Stupidly high.

Melee had next to none. Most Melee videos I remember watching had people trying to space and not have to shield in the first place. Doesn't take much to have "stupidly high" more. Doesn't change the fact it's still very infrequent compared to normal shielding, outside of the occasional odd moment/match. Heck, I've seen a Bowser PS his way through a Toon Link projectile wall. I'm not saying that it can't happen; I'm saying it's the exception, not the rule.

You're also negating to think about the very things you mentioned. Prediction and reading opponents. A human factor. Do you think people can honestly "react" to MK's dsmash (IIRC, first hitbox is under 10 frames, average human reaction speed is 12 frames)? Or do you think they predict the dsmash and shield? If you know you're going to be shielding - and likely powershielding - why not get ready to continue that beyond just powershielding and incorporate your moves to counter said attack?

Firstly, I've heard that human reaction time is like, 10 frames, which is what I was working with.

Spoiler

Yays, I have more stuff to throw at A2 next time he attempts to use "shield everything" as an argument against Ike.

And yes, you can predict. Problem is you only have a 3 frame window to PS. You can't rely on that. If you're opponent was just slightly slower than expected using a move (say 5 frames, or 1/12 of a second so we can really imagine how slightly slower I'm talking about), you're going to be just normal shielding and buffering a move out of that which won't work the way you want it to, and risking punishment in return if you choose the wrong move to use. Either that, or you have to pause slightly to make sure you get a PS, which in turn cuts down on your punishment window.

You can also argue that prediction works both ways, but then you start getting into such heavy theorycrafting that I don't wanna step in that area. It just gets messy.

We have nothing on this broken *** move (it's broken due to how it can be seperated and called upon, and it's practically impossible to tell when these windows "close" and the move cannot be continued) so your best option is to attempt to retreat or do anything in your power that you think will work.

I'm working from memory on a character I haven't looked at for quite a long time here, but isn't Snake's grenade pull 1 frame? Wouldn't there be at least 1 frame somewhere in between the Ftilt combo, in which you can pull out a grenade, hit both Snake and MK, and then drop to the ground sooner and thus get away? Honestly, I've always wondered why Snakes don't keep one grenade handy to pull out at the ready, and use it to punish MK as much as possible every time he goes for a hit. If you shield in time as well yays, you take no damage. If you can't and both get hit, well, Snake can take more damage safely than MK. The only moves I've notice that MK can use to hit Snake and not activate a grenade in his hand are Dtilt, Dsmash, and Grab.

But that's another topic.

 

[SuSa]

Both yes and no to your last point. (I'm answering you in reverse order, no quotes... in a rush, sorry.) It takes 7 frames to shield drop and I need to test that 1 frame thing.. I can't even remember - but I do think it's true. (DDD's CG is what makes me think this.. lol)

If that's so, I totally overlooked that as an option to avoid combos such as Mk's ftilt. If we powershield the first hit, you are right that we should be able to pull a grenade and hopefully have MK's second or third hit hit the grenade and explode us both. A lot of Snake's do keep one grenade open to be able to pull out, especially MK - and especially because of tornado.


Human reaction time is roughly 12 frames. Should I link you to a thread about it? The upper limit is 9-10 frames but most people react at roughly 12 frames. Also - prediction can work both ways, but if I am guarenteed a counter out of power shield what the hell are you going to predict? "Oh... maybe I shouldn't attack because if I get powershielded I'll get countered"? Doesn't quite work like that, otherwise nobody would attack.... so even predicting what I'd do - if it's guarenteed, what can you do about it?

We can argue this point all day, so I'll drop it. I'm sure you can find countless videos where the players don't power shield once, and I could find countless videos where they power shield roughly 90% of the time.

Squirtle has a 4 frame jump and high air mobility with quick attacks. So now the question is if he can close the gap on your fair

Spoiler

(which is spacing dependant and frame data cannot provide the answer to this)

to counter you. This will depend on how fast is aerial and how much end lag Ike's fair has. If Squirtle does have possible options - the only thing to worry about is how much time.

Spoiler

(using frame data, test with the characters practically on eachother)

If you have a large amount of open frames still (Let's say about 10-15 frames) you may be able to close in on a properly spaced fair to counter, ASSUMING you power shielded it and knew you were going to.

Will you be able to counter every fair? No, not unless you're predicting it every time.
Will you power shield every fair? Possibly, it is a relatively slow move - so you do have time to react.
Will you counter every fair? Well this depends if you're able to close the spacing gap - which is something you'll have to learn. Frame data cannot provide this.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I think you people rely too much on the 12 frame average reaction time. With proper training, that reaction time can be reduced to well below that amount of time. If you shield and get hit by an aerial enough times, you will eventually start doing it on reaction which is much faster than "12 frames of realizing I just got hit on my shield, I should grab now."

Besides, if Ike FH, how can you not see it coming? That is a dead give away that he is going to do something like Fair. You could even see the start-up animation and shield before that. After you get hit, there is enough lag on Fair from hitlag, landing lag, and cool down that you can drop shield and dash attack ike. C-stick down cancels the start-up frames of "dashing", so you can go straight from 7 frames drop time to a 4-6 frame dash attack. That is only 13 frames tops and Ike has way more than 13 frames of lag if Fair hits shield.

Drop shield into dash attack pretty much beats Fair. That is why I do not understand why people say Fair is good on shield.

 

[SuSa]

Xeylode, I already argued against your logic on that.

The reaction speed is to shield THEN grab. The grabbing is an afterfact of the reaction, it's a second part.

Your argument is like catching a falling object.

You quickly move your hand under the object (reaction)
You catch the object (grab)

Was your reaction to move your hand into the position to grab the object? Or was your reaction a 2 step process of moving your hand into place (reaction) then grabbing the object?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Melee had next to none. Most Melee videos I remember watching had people trying to space and not have to shield in the first place. Doesn't take much to have "stupidly high" more. Doesn't change the fact it's still very infrequent compared to normal shielding, outside of the occasional odd moment/match. Heck, I've seen a Bowser PS his way through a Toon Link projectile wall. I'm not saying that it can't happen; I'm saying it's the exception, not the rule.

Powershielding is very uncommon in Melee due to how difficult it is to do yeah, and in most matchups besides Falco, there isn't any point in powershielding. But shielding is actually very powerful in Melee. Arguably more powerful than it is in Brawl due to options for avoiding shield pokes being better and due to wavedashing out of shield. People don't seem to realize how defensive Melee actually is. But that's off topic.

Firstly, I've heard that human reaction time is like, 10 frames, which is what I was working with.

Spoiler

Yays, I have more stuff to throw at A2 next time he attempts to use "shield everything" as an argument against Ike.

And yes, you can predict. Problem is you only have a 3 frame window to PS. You can't rely on that. If you're opponent was just slightly slower than expected using a move (say 5 frames, or 1/12 of a second so we can really imagine how slightly slower I'm talking about), you're going to be just normal shielding and buffering a move out of that which won't work the way you want it to, and risking punishment in return if you choose the wrong move to use. Either that, or you have to pause slightly to make sure you get a PS, which in turn cuts down on your punishment window.

Non-bufferable but reaction/tech-skill based 3 frame windows are very easy to hit in high level play, as long as you practice. It doesn't take a skilled player to figure out how easy it is to time a 3 frame window initially, and even 2 frame windows aren't unbearably hard to hit consistently (everyone who plays Street Fighter competitively hits a lot of 2 frame windows CONSISTENTLY. Look up one frame links and priority linking if you're curious). And Ike in specific has a lot of tells when he does most of his moves aside from the fact that none of his aerials besides B-air starts up faster than 15 frames (something about Ryko complaining the only aerial Ike has that isn't complete AYUSS is B-air). And I forget his jump startup is like 7-8 frames? Recognizing that Ike is doing something in the air isn't hard at all. The only moves Ike have that can be viably varied in time without any tells are his Jab and Grab basically, and he has little else if you're outside of that range.

Ike's entire strategy is basically hoping you're foolish enough to be constantly throw baited into dumb aerials and that when you do get past them you're spacing and response to spotdodge is bad enough that he can Jab combo you (pray they don't SDI or do a well-timed shieldgrab or other oos option that is 9 frames or faster). Oh yeah and he also hopes you have no idea how juggling and edgeguarding works like other characters with bad recoveries and escape options.

And for the people who are discussing this matchup, I will only ask if you are aware how to edgeguard Ike's Up-B. For those who don't know, the answer is simple: attempting to edgehog it. Time it right, he doesn't grab the ledge. Time it slightly early, you still probably can get a free hit by ledgedropping. Given that in the Squirtle matchup most Ike users are pretty aware they need to space their recovery carefully to avoid a water gun gimp, this is how you punish that reliably.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Firstly: same request as the last time A2 bothered to post his worthless two cents in this topic. Don't respond to what ever it is he's saying.

Secondly:

I think you people rely too much on the 12 frame average reaction time. With proper training, that reaction time can be reduced to well below that amount of time. If you shield and get hit by an aerial enough times, you will eventually start doing it on reaction which is much faster than "12 frames of realizing I just got hit on my shield, I should grab now."

Besides, if Ike FH, how can you not see it coming? That is a dead give away that he is going to do something like Fair. You could even see the start-up animation and shield before that. After you get hit, there is enough lag on Fair from hitlag, landing lag, and cool down that you can drop shield and dash attack ike. C-stick down cancels the start-up frames of "dashing", so you can go straight from 7 frames drop time to a 4-6 frame dash attack. That is only 13 frames tops and Ike has way more than 13 frames of lag if Fair hits shield.

If the Ike is full hopping an Fair, he's doing it wrong. Besides that fact and assuming you meant SH, he can also Nair. Or just leave it empty to see what you do. You're also assuming that we are in fact aiming to hit your shield, and not simply hit the air right in front of you to discourage approaches. For example: I often aim to not hit their shield. I probably aim to miss more than hit, as long as I'm actually thinking while I'm playing. And frankly, I don't think Dash Attack has enough range to hit Ike in time before he can shield; seeing how very safe the move is, but I'd need to see the hitbox size on it to tell.

Drop shield into dash attack pretty much beats Fair. That is why I do not understand why people say Fair is good on shield.

Because that idea doesn't work consistently, otherwise everyone would be using it. >_> There is also the fact that if we Nair instead of Fair, you come to a sliding stop right in front of us, stuck in your shield with now limited options, and Ikes tend to use Nair more nowadays. Or at least we're trying to.

 

[A2ZOMG]

My point is very relevant and requires a response from you, because you are stating inconsistent details and things that are completely not true and show a lack of understanding for what happens in high level play.

The facts are simple. Ike specifically has a lot of tells on the opening frames and situations of the vast majority of his moves, and his moves have more than enough reactable startup, and 3 frame powershield windows are VERY easy for a skilled player to hit consistently on a reaction basis. I don't think I need to bring Adumbrodeus here to prove my point. This is just the way things work, and unfortunately Brawl is particularly dominated by unskilled players who have neither the time, understanding, or resources to properly train good competitive motions.

Hell the only windows that actually are impossibly hard to hit consistently for the vast majority of people are non-bufferable one frame windows (unless I'm mistaken, I think DEHF is an example of an exception, as I have heard he is capable of illusion canceling at specified lengths, which has 1 frame variation). At 2 frames and above, you can train the average player to hit those consistently with ease as long as they have something reactable to observe.

 

[T-block]

Revived. This was pretty good discussion, but if you have anything to add or if any opinions have changed, now's the time to bring it up.

 

[Ingoro]

Charizard > Ike, I did a mm with an ike in my country and later beated his Ike in brackets @ our last national. I started out with squirtle but felt uncomfortable and Ike kills so early which makes me think that this mu is close to even, or slightly advantage for squirtle. Charizard can actually trap ike so well, esp with flamethrower mixed up with rock smashes, I'd say we have a good advantage with chari vs Ike.

( Maybe I'll edit this post later to make it look more "pro" and fix my grammar & spelling )

 

[Tesh]

Ike can really put some major hurt on Charizard. When you look at how easy Charizard is to juggle and how dangerous Ike's juggling tools are like Uair (death at 80%-100% from Uair which has like a 20 frame hitbox window) or his land camping tools against someone as fat and slow as charizard like upsmash (sliding upsmash covering like 40% of smashville) or if he can bait an airdodge and get an Fsmash on you. Eventually it won't feel so much like Squirtle is so light when Charizard winds up being so easy to hit.

When Charizard is in the advantages position once he gets a punish in, he still has some work to do. Uair isn't really that disjointed, so you need to worry about how Ike's Dair might send you packing or reverse positions if he sourspots and sends you up. Getting him offstage can be good at least. Spiking him out of aether is super easy at times and so is blocking him off with flamethower is he doesn't space it right.

 

[T-block]

Ike has mediocre air speed though. B-reversal Flamethrower should do quite well for escaping juggles. It's not a catch-all solution, but it helps.

 

[Tesh]

His SHFF gets him back to the ground quickly after threatening imo. He is faster than Chaizard (overall), has more range, more power and lives longer in this matchup.

 

[CoonTail]

After seeing this thread revived looking back this matchup is a annoying to talk about because Ike mains swear its in there favor. Last I heard they had a some grab release shennanigans on squirtle just like marth except without a tipper f-smash, along with a guarenteed b-throw to dash attack.

Now my main problem is from about 2008-2010ish I played with ryko all the time. I have seen a large portion of Ike's capabilities from one of the Ike players that mentored people like San. So this is my statement in regards to Ike. The whole grab release and back throw dash attack are a pain but as PT you just start to play this match-up like the marth matchup except Ike has worse grab range lol. Next as earlier stated Ike has A LOT of tells on his attacks period. If you wanna say different and argue then your a liar because its really obvious. N-air is one of Ikes biggest tools hence playing Ike like marth means hit and run tactics so n-air is just considered in this playstyle. F-air and U-air are incredibly obvious and really are not to hard to evade.

Ike's jab game is the gimmick as ryko always told me and yet every other Ike has argued for some ridiculous reason. Squirtles jab clinks with Ike's for starters, Zard can SDI the jabs back and force Ike into setting for RS counter attack if he uses his second jab.....next just like all of us PT's know that jab combos like Ike and squirtles can be SDI'd real easily by players who already know this. Lastly you can SDI Ike's jabs up and basically just jump or air dodge and get away hell even if your Ivy you can SDI up into n-air. This is another section where I heard alot of nonsense from Ike's talking about how they can up-tilt us everytime.....figuring ryko struggled I dont see every other Ike nailing up-tilts on people who SI up.

Now the weak point.......Ike can be rather vigorously edgeguarded by all three pokes, this is a general weakness of Ike's and if all 3 of the pokemon can do it with ease then I still lack to see the argument here. Squirtle can watergun Ike very easily along with being able to d-smash or f-air him out of his up-b.
Ivy can not only f-smash Ike out of his recovery but can also razor leaf or b-air him also.
Lastly leaving charizard who can use flamethrower to knock him out of his recovery along with the ability to D-air Ike out of his recovery or B-air.

Overall I deffinitly think this matchup is in PT's favor, Squirtles postitive in this matchup whether or not Ike has grab non-sense on him because squirtle can play hit and run to well for ike to take full advantage of this, along with straight beating Ike's grounded options in speed along with beating Ike's aerial options in speed.

Ivy deffinitly goes positive here too, because yes Ike can gimp Ivy so can anyone but Ivy not only has the ability to gimp Ike back....Ike struggles against b-air, hates bulletseed, has his recovery harassed by an Ivy on the ledge to quite an extent....and only exploits Ivy's fire weakness with the gimmick that is eruption.

Zard is the one poke who isnt positive against Ike and thats solely due to Ike's juggle game on zard's big body. Zard can space Ike real well with flamethrower along with being able to gimp Ike with f-air and b-air. Rocksmash is the answer to Ike's jabs with the ability to SDI back and basically force RS counter attacks on him. Ike just wins this matchup on Zard's size and ability to be juggled.
The matchup is in favor of PT along the lines of 6:4 probably more like 55:45.