Pokédex Entry: Ike

[Nidtendofreak]

In that topic you were waiting for a specific color to appear, in a match there are always like 100 other options you need to consider, besides that, the visual effect is less overwhelming.

You've also trained yourself to react to specific movements, so you react them faster.

The general consensus was that you actually react in a match faster than on that site, as you have adrenaline going through your system.

 

[T-block]

Which PT main do you play with ANMist? Tell him to post here xP

I have no doubt that Rock Smash can be Counter'd on reaction. Good points on the jab cancels.

For Flamethrower though, Charizard can end the flame as soon as he sees you jump and still have time to react to what you're doing, especially if you're going to double jump aerial. Now you're above Charizard with no double jump, which isn't the best place to be. And imo it's not that Ike's huge aerials counter Charizard's ground speed - it's that Charizard's ground speed allows him to approach Ike DESPITE those huge moves. I'm not saying we can just run right at you and you won't be able to do anything... I'm saying the dash speed allows us to capitalize on any openings, and at the same time the threat of that mobility can create openings as well.

 

[Tesh]

Why would you counter rock smash? Its punishable on shield and you can only counter one of the like...six? hits. You would get less damage than just jabbing him wouldn't you?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

If done perfectly, it's -9 on shield, you should add some sick shield pushback to that and it's pretty much unpunishable.

 

[Tesh]

Are you in a position to do it perfectly out of ike's jab combo? Doesn't sound like it would be spaced.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

You don't need to space it, you need to hit with the middle of it. Besides, if you get a full blow with rock smash your shield is definitely getting poked.

 

[T-block]

Are we talking about Rock Smash on shield? A full shield can take one full Rock Smash - every shield will be poked by the second one though.

 

[AN(M)ist]

Which PT main do you play with ANMist? Tell him to post here xP

I have no doubt that Rock Smash can be Counter'd on reaction. Good points on the jab cancels.

For Flamethrower though, Charizard can end the flame as soon as he sees you jump and still have time to react to what you're doing, especially if you're going to double jump aerial. Now you're below Charizard with no double jump, which isn't the best place to be. And imo it's not that Ike's huge aerials counter Charizard's ground speed - it's that Charizard's ground speed allows him to approach Ike DESPITE those huge moves. I'm not saying we can just run right at you and you won't be able to do anything... I'm saying the dash speed allows us to capitalize on any openings, and at the same time the threat of that mobility can create openings as well.

There were two PT mains here actually - first carlos and second oliver. Carlos goes around all pokemons except jigglypuff. He is good at reading and punishing but tends to get predictive sometimes so I wouldn't say he's a great player in our community but then, the better players include three MKs, one falco, and two marths so I don't blame him either. Oliver is really good, he's a veteran (melee player) who played olimar in brawl and became really good with PT. He hasn't played brawl for a while now but I remember the close matches we had. I'll tell carlos to post on SWF if he doesn't and oliver too if I meet him.

First of all, flamethrower when read and evaded with a double jump is punishable with FFfair. I believe charizard is stuck with flame thrower for atleast a second before stopping it. The double jumps I mentioned were for onstage. Dunno how we'll end up below charizard but if you're talking about landing above him, then you must know both nair and fair hit below Ike so they will always get a rushing charizard. If charizard sees us a double jump then he'll have to shield or dodge the incoming attack. Rolling behind ike is a bad idea since spaced fair/nair will hit you. those (spaced) aerials are also safe on shield against characters slower than metaknight. Rolling back will simply reset the situation. Charizard timing a spotdodge can get us if he rushes in asap but then we can always do empty jumps for mindgames. I agree on charizard's dash speed being a challenge but Ike's huge aerials aren't that slow either. Plus we won't always have to do aerials, jabs are also another great option. Retreating nairs and fairs are like an iron wall. SHbair is a bane for any approaching character who whiffs on Ike since its extremely powerful, fast and autocancels. Same goes in a slight lower extent for RAR bair since it takes like extra 3-4 frames to comeout. On top of these, we have our jabs (arguably the best in the game when accounting speed and priority). The core thing in this MU is reading and punishing. For charizard his speed is a tool against Ike, he'll need to outsmart/read Ike in order to push in for damage and the same thing goes for Ike.

Why would you counter rock smash? Its punishable on shield and you can only counter one of the like...six? hits. You would get less damage than just jabbing him wouldn't you?

At close range (especially Ike's jab range) rocksmash is really lethal (some 30+ damage I believe) so countering that is close to countering a falcon punch.

Are you in a position to do it perfectly out of ike's jab combo? Doesn't sound like it would be spaced.

In case you're unaware, Jab cancel requires us press down and the command for Ike's counter is downB. so yes, we are perfectly in position to counter on reaction.
EDIT: nevermind, I thought that was addressed towards me.

 

[T-block]

Rock Smash's damage comes from smaller hits... there's an initial hit (18% I think), followed by 9 shards that have projectile properties, and it's the shards that get you the big numbers. The max damage is 45%. Getting Countered will still hurt, but you're not countering a 45% hitbox =P

I think you're overestimating the cooldown on Flamethrower. If we end it once Ike reaches the tip of our flame there should be enough time to get up a shield before the f-air hits. But all in all, I guess I'm fine with calling this 50-50.

Are we okay with 50-50 Ivysaur as well?

 

[AN(M)ist]

Well I have gotten KOed once when I ADed into rocksmash so I know that its lethal upclose. Something to keep in mind for me in future. my bad for the damage number. except Ike, I rarely keep track of any other characters damage.

Ivy isn't the same as charizard for Ike. I would like to hear out you're opinions on that MU first though. There might be somethings I may be overlooking.

 

[T-block]

"This is a matchup where Ivysaur is really hurt by her low aerial mobility. Ike's f-air outranged her b-air, but that wouldn't be a problem (ie- b-air would still be able to outspace it) if she could actually move in the air, since it comes out so much faster, and hits twice. Even avoiding getting grabbed is difficult for her unless she has platforms to work with. I don't think b-throw > dash attack is going to break the matchup though... Ivy has dealt with worse. On the other hand, being slow in the air doesn't mean you can't wall at all - just that you have to be smarter with it. The range difference isn't that big between her b-air and Ike's f-air, and Ike's aerial mobility isn't exactly stellar either. I kinda wanna label this as 50-50."

I'm unsure as well... on paper I'd give a slight advantage to Ivysaur, but it's never felt like an advantage when I play.

 

[AN(M)ist]

.........meh, lets start with the ground game first.

If Ike uses ground approaches, Ivy has razor leaf and SHbair to hinder Ike. PSing/dodging/jabbing razor leaf is kinda easy as its way more easier to see coming than falco's laser; also, Ivy backs up a bit so that makes it all the more seeable. SH bair is annoying. I believe it has some auto-cancel like thing when Ivy touches the ground; enabling her to follow up almost instantly with another SHbair or any other move. But then, it doesn't really stop Ike's ground approach since it doesn't have any knockback and plus we can shield/dodge dash through it. Other than those two I don't think Ivy has a third option. Once Ike has closed in, Ivy has very limited options as to stop Ike from attacking/grabbing her. Her normal jab might whip us a bit but then it is outranged by ftilt or SHfair. If Ivy is able to shield those, Ike is safe anyway due to knockback and short ending lag. When Ike gets really close, Ivy can attempt the bullet seed which deal upto like 40% but can also be punished with an fsmash if blocked or whiffed. Once Ike gets in, she isn't getting out without eating atleast 20% damage along with bthrow>DA combo at meddling percents and being sent offstage if near the ledge (btw, Ike's fthrow>DA is also a true combo at some small percents) for a possible followup/gimp. To be fair, I see this in favor of Ike rather than even.

And, why do we refer to Ivy as a she when her voice is heavier than Ganondorf? (lol)

 

[Zigsta]

And, why do we refer to Ivy as a she when her voice is heavier than Ganondorf? (lol)

In Japanese Brawl, Ivysaur sounds like a girl.

But I'm with you. I'm American. My Ivysaur's a dude.

 

[AN(M)ist]

Lol, we should start calling all pokemon "it", that's what they do in pokemon games.

 

[Zigsta]

Lol, we should start calling all pokemon "it", that's what they do in pokemon anime.

Fixed.

It makes me sad they call Pikachu an "it" when he clearly wears male clothing when he cheers at contests.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm sorry, but Squirtle is one of Ike's easiest MUs, right up there with Ganondorf.

I'm not gonna say anything about this particular matchup, but I'm going to laugh if you think Ike actually has a really easy time against Ganondorf (which he kinda does on wifi). Good Ike players have definitely lost to Ganon users in tournament. And Ganondorf actually has a lot of incredibly gay stuff against Ike that allows him to score a KO on Ike much more easily than the other way around, and the ways he can punish Ike's openings are very very rewarding.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Requesting all PT people looking at this topic to ignore A2 and whatever it is he's saying. He's basically the reason the Ike boards don't go out and try to discuss MUs. When you have idiots like him running around saying "Ike is second worse" in every single Ike MU discussion he can find, it gets annoying. Please do us a favor and not respond to it at all. Thank you.

 

[T-block]

If Ike uses ground approaches, Ivy has razor leaf and SHbair to hinder Ike. PSing/dodging/jabbing razor leaf is kinda easy as its way more easier to see coming than falco's laser; also, Ivy backs up a bit so that makes it all the more seeable.

Yeah, Razor Leaf is nothing more than an annoyance in pretty much any matchup. It's not even good enough to force an approach from non-projectile characters, and it certainly won't hold off an approach on its own.

SH bair is annoying. I believe it has some auto-cancel like thing when Ivy touches the ground; enabling her to follow up almost instantly with another SHbair or any other move. But then, it doesn't really stop Ike's ground approach since it doesn't have any knockback and plus we can shield/dodge dash through it. Other than those two I don't think Ivy has a third option.

Yes, it autocancels if you land during the move, but that requires you to not use it while rising on the short hop, or there'll be landing lag. Short hop isn't the only way to use it though... I use rising full-hop b-air way more often. Once the b-air finishes, you're in a position to continue spacing with a b-air while falling, n-air onto them, or even d-air. The knockback on b-air is disruptive enough that it won't be unsafe on hit or anything if used properly, even at low percents. Full-hop also allows us to react to running shield/dodge.

Once Ike has closed in, Ivy has very limited options as to stop Ike from attacking/grabbing her. Her normal jab might whip us a bit but then it is outranged by ftilt or SHfair.

Jab is terrible lol... you will rarely see us use it. D-tilt is better in almost every way - comes out faster, safer on hit. Once Ike is in close, we can't really compete with his jab. Bullet Seed is nice (frame 4 with invincibility on startup), but it's super high risk against a character like Ike, so yeah, I agree we lose up close, but that's often the case for Ivysaur.

Once Ike gets in, she isn't getting out without eating atleast 20% damage along with bthrow>DA combo at meddling percents and being sent offstage if near the ledge (btw, Ike's fthrow>DA is also a true combo at some small percents) for a possible followup/gimp.

The gimp... I think I'm still underestimating the horizontal knockback of Ike's dash attack. Either that, or I've been desensitized to the effect of Ivysaur's terrible recovery on a matchup... it hurts, but Ivysaur players have learnt to deal with it in other matchups, and I don't see how Ike's is any more threatening. The fact that you can land it out of a grab is slightly disconcerting I suppose... at what percents can you combo DA out of a throw?

To be fair, I see this in favor of Ike rather than even.

I think you're thinking it's easier to approach Ivy than it really is... I'll wait for your response to the b-air paragraph.

And, why do we refer to Ivy as a she when her voice is heavier than Ganondorf? (lol)

It's been a confusing issue since... release basically. A while ago I got fed up with not knowing, so I just decided my Ivysaur is a girl. A lot of players have done the same lol

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't particularly care about this matchup, but Nidtendofreak, saying that Squirtle is as easy as Ganondorf is honestly an awful comparison, when Ike doesn't actually **** Ganon in the first place. The only way these matchups have any real relevance is how Ganon has like almost as many dumb grab and edgeguard shenanigans on Ike that Ike has on Squirtle, and unlike Squirtle, Ike lacks real flexibility in his mobility. And if you're gonna ignore the shenanigans Ganon has on Ike that actually make him REALLY GOOD in the matchup, you might as well do the same for Ike against Squirtle.

I'm all for good matchup discussion but you're doing it wrong and you clearly don't understand the tools other characters have.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72ZbDNAh6uU&feature=channel

Ivysaur: 0-89%
Squirtle: 18-78%
Charizard: 11-94%

Yays for massive combo range?

 

[Tesh]

It sounds like Ivy would be in a horrible position if he was above the ledge offstage and unable to tether immediately, but can't you just DI down when the dash attack hits you and then tether before Ike gets to you?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

That I wouldn't know. I know Link does that, but can Ivy fall fast enough to safely grab the ledge?

 

[Tesh]

If he can DI/SDI low enough to hit into the floor on his way out, he should be able to tether cancel the knockback before Ike can do anything. I have never played an Ike that knew the matchup, so I haven't ever had to try that.

 

[AN(M)ist]

Alright, I'm back with some fresh observations from the Pokemon Match I played today. Let's get started.

Yes, it autocancels if you land during the move, but that requires you to not use it while rising on the short hop, or there'll be landing lag. Short hop isn't the only way to use it though... I use rising full-hop b-air way more often. Once the b-air finishes, you're in a position to continue spacing with a b-air while falling, n-air onto them, or even d-air. The knockback on b-air is disruptive enough that it won't be unsafe on hit or anything if used properly, even at low percents. Full-hop also allows us to react to running shield/dodge.

Guess I didn't think much of Ivy's other aerial options. Ivy sure has some nice tools for keeping her opponents from getting close to her. Ivy's bair (I mean primarily) creates alot of variables against Ike which can hinder him as well as rack up decent amount of damage on him.

Like you mentioned, SH isn't the only way for Ivy to bair effectively, I've noticed oliver (one of the guys who plays PT at my region) does full hop bairs too, except that he often mixes it with nairs when Ike gets closer by ADing. I'm guessing Ivy's nair also auto-cancels like bair (or has negligible landing lag since I've seen Ivy always gets on the move after using nair and landing). At low percents, Ivy's nair also combos into another nair and/or even uair (making a net amount of 30-40 damage); though I'm not sure if Ike can AD between them in time but I'm pretty sure he wont get the frames for it.

Coming over to Ike side, if Ivy only relies on her bairs then Ike can simply do what I mentioned previously. Things start getting challenging for him when Ivy's starts playing her spacing game. As far as range goes, Ivy only has bair for Ike from afar and nair upclose (I wanna add uair too but it seems to me her uair kinda depends on nair to actually hit ike) so in this match, Ike will have to disrupt Ivy's spacing and prevent from being caught or baited in to nairs or even fsmash if Ivy reaches the ground before him. Which means he'll have to space his fairs against Ivy's bairs (its the only one that outranges her bair. I've never got Ike's nair, bair or uair to work here) and all his other aerials against her nair. Not spacing properly means getting tangled in Ivy's bair/nair and eating alot of damage.

There is also one more thing to mention here: None of these characters can weave in and out during their aerials so it'll either be an approaching aerial or retreating aerial, although Ike may have a little easy time moving in air, he is still pretty much slow when it comes to aerial mobility.

The gimp... I think I'm still underestimating the horizontal knockback of Ike's dash attack. Either that, or I've been desensitized to the effect of Ivysaur's terrible recovery on a matchup... it hurts, but Ivysaur players have learnt to deal with it in other matchups, and I don't see how Ike's is any more threatening. The fact that you can land it out of a grab is slightly disconcerting I suppose... at what percents can you combo DA out of a throw?

Eating a DA at around 80-90% near the ledge means Ivy is gimp-able. She can however do her downair momentum cancel and sideB to UpB, but Ike can play around here with his offstage game. He can very well attempt a fair, bair offstage and aether back onstage; or just time a speed-hug or whatever if Ivy has been thrown more horizontally.

I think you're thinking it's easier to approach Ivy than it really is... I'll wait for your response to the b-air paragraph.

Now that I think about it, Ivy really lives upto to Ike in terms of spacing. But then, She can't deal with him in her face and her recovery is worse than his. Ike can pretty much juggle Ivy with his jab cancel shenanigans. Further more, Ivy is middle weight, meaning she's already at gimp risk if Ike hits her with bair, fair, ftilt around 80+ (KO risk if he hits her with uncharged upsmash, ftilt, bair or uair at around 90~100+).
Even if Ivy plays really carefully with her spacing game, she has to close in to KO Ike so she's always at risk against him.

It's been a confusing issue since... release basically. A while ago I got fed up with not knowing, so I just decided my Ivysaur is a girl. A lot of players have done the same lol

I'll follow you here too. I have referred to Ivy as a she far too many times to change her gender now. lol

It sounds like Ivy would be in a horrible position if he was above the ledge offstage and unable to tether immediately, but can't you just DI down when the dash attack hits you and then tether before Ike gets to you?

bthrow>DA doesn't work if Ike has his back next to the ledge. He'll need some running distance to make this combo work.


EDIT: I've still to test that tether grab against Ike's reverse aether thingy. I should be back tomorrow with the results for it. Couldn't do this today.

 

[Ussi]

If Ike's back is to the ledge all he does is bthrow, it sends downwards as it is..

 

[Magik0722]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72ZbDNAh6uU&feature=channel

Ivysaur: 0-89%
Squirtle: 18-78%
Charizard: 11-94%

Yays for massive combo range?

Thank you for posting this
now i know when i can stop camping the middle of the stage with ivysuar.
its not as bad as i thought either only able to do it till 89 percent is a relief, the only time this will only be gimp worth will be at around 87 percent, otherwise the knockback will be low enough at earlier percents so the danger zone isnt all that bad, id say somewhere between 65-89 percent is were we would have to be worried about it.

also for a general idea here are some videos where i play against ike, though they are 7 months old
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Magik+ike&aq=f

 

[AN(M)ist]

Done the Ike aether vs Ivy tether test today. turns out Ivy can do it against Ike's reverse aether but only if she is below the ledge herself. Kinda about next to Ike but only a little above him and just far enough to out range aether and close enough to tether the ledge. It's a risky place if you ask me, cause if she screws over she's dead. For her to do it at about ledge height will put her within reverse aether range.

 

[Tesh]

Won't aether just kill you on the way down if you hang under it to edgehog? Also I'm still wondering if you can DI down on dash attack to hit into the stage. Do you know?

 

[AN(M)ist]

Not if Ivy is quick to press up after grabbing with tether. But doing this is still really risky. Ivy has to jump down below the ledge height to be able to do it so her stock depends on her getting the spacing perfectly and not screwing up the timing. The best thing to do here IMO is pokemon change while Ike is busy getting back and wait for him with charizard.

I don't think you can DI down to escape the combo. If you noticed, Ike hits his opponents with DA after bthrow when they are really close to ground or have touched the ground but are unable to put the shield up in time. Furthermore, I haven't seen a match where DI down did successfully escape this combo.

Also one important thing to mention here: As Ike's bthrow gets stale, the bthrow>DA combo percent increases. So if Ike has staled his bthrow he will be comboing with bthrow>DA even after 100+ damage on the opponent (to a max of 120+ I believe, 'cause after that knockback will be too much to combo and DI also will be more effective). The character weight also affects this obviously.

 

[Tesh]

I know you can't escape the combo with DI. I'm asking if you can DI down when the dash attack hits you so that it slides you across the ground as you go offstage (cancelling the hitstun and allowing you to tether cancel the knockback)

 

[T-block]

He answered that question as well, Tesh.

Does the Dash Attack always connect once the opponent has touched the ground? That's a really small window... two frames IIRC.

 

[Silva]

Does the Dash Attack always connect once the opponent has touched the ground? That's a really small window... two frames IIRC.

That's dependent on how quickly the Ike can input the dash attack. If the timing is ****ed up, then it's pretty much a free grab.

 

[theeboredone]

Just gonna input my two-cents for now...

1. Based on the current data, I'm assuming you guys would start out with Charizard right? That's the MU that gives you the best chance of going head to head with Ike.

2. So say if you lose a stock and now are using Squirtle, does it become a point where if you can, switch to Ivy before we can say, eruption edge guard you? That way, you get Charizard back for your final stock? Oh, and I would rather just take the minimum eruption damage possible rather than staling below the stage. Eruption can kill Squirtle early if it has a decent charge.

3. Everytime I play Zigsta, he is always reluctant to use Ivysaur all the way. I don't know if he just sucks with him. I can't recall any of my matches with Magik unfortunately. Anyways, I was just wondering if it's that much of an emphasis to switch to Charizard? Mainly due to the edge hanging? If anything, I would consider that a strong reason to give Ike the advantage in the MU.

4. Correct me if I'm wrong, but countering rock smash is not all that hard to do. I don't know if it's because Charizard mains like to make a certain approach before they do it or what, but I also don't worry about the other shards hitting me, because counter makes you invincible during the attack motion right? I have yet to see a Charizard Rock Smash out of jab...Zigsta, get that awesome DI and spam in.

 

[Zigsta]

Yeah, my Ivysaur just wasn't up to snuff last time we played last semester. And now I just go Bowser in this MU, haha.

 

[Tesh]

He answered that question as well, Tesh.

Does the Dash Attack always connect once the opponent has touched the ground? That's a really small window... two frames IIRC.

I honestly don't see where that question was answered. I never asked if you could escape the dash attack.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Yeah, my Ivysaur just wasn't up to snuff last time we played last semester. And now I just go Bowser in this MU, haha.

You'd rather be Bthrow Chaingrabbed, followed by a Dash Attack out of Bthrow?

 

[Ussi]

You slide on the ground after bthrow, and when the KB gets too high then you actually can tech it. If you don't tech its guaranteed dash attack

 

[Zigsta]

You'd rather be Bthrow Chaingrabbed, followed by a Dash Attack out of Bthrow?

No, I'd rather GR CG you and finish with a Klaw.

 

[AN(M)ist]

I honestly don't see where that question was answered. I never asked if you could escape the dash attack.

I see what your question is: You want to know if Ivy can DI down AFTER getting hit by DA so that she hits the ground in order to cancel the hitstun from DA and then tether the ledge.

Well, Ike's DA doesn't hit that horizontally except for some part of his sword hitbox so its really unlikely that DI down would help you. And DIing down is actually a risky thing to do because if there is a big knockback, you'll just go a big distance straight horizontally and shut off any chances of return. If anything, I say you should DI up so that you can always stay above the stage height.

 

[Tesh]

Thank you thank you. Well Ivysaur has horrible air speed and mobility so being above tether range feels pretty horrible for me generally. But if you say you can't DI down hard enough on the dash attack hit, I guess your best bet is DI up or maybe SDI down.

Anyway, I wouldn't expect a very successful recovery by Ivysaur against even the safest reactions from Ike in that situation.