PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[AvengerAngel]

What should I do in a Falco ditto if I get caught in the shield and my opponent is rushing in with SHLs? :x
The standard SHL > grab or SHL > shine and stuff :x

Is a roll safe enough? Should I jump OoS with a Dair/Nair? x(

 

[Mogwai]

roll is never really safe against falco, but sometimes it's your best bet. you can also just try to shine out of shield when appropriate.

 

[Rubyiris]

I really like to camp as Falco when I'm teaming with a Fox. Falco is heavier, and I tend to stay on the top platforms unless I need to help out my Fox partner, so it's not uncommon for me to have 4 stocks and nearly 200% when everyone else has 2 stocks.

I prefer to tank stocks whilst I keep the opposing team from double teaming the Fox whilst he goes on a rampage. It's especially nice when you're teaming with a technically proficient Fox player.

I mostly do this because I'm an extremely laser-campy Falco normally, which can sometimes lead to disaster unless the fox/falco have excellent communication, something I haven't developed yet due to my inexperience.

My normal strategies work exceptionally well for the 1v2 which usually inevitably happens. My Fox team mate often brings them down to 2 or 3 stocks, at high percentage, whilst I'm usually still fresh, or near-fresh due to being gay and camping the top platform. Because I'm relatively technical, and have excellent laser control, I can often turn 1vs2 into essentially two 1v1s, as I get off on one person, whilst lasering, and keeping away from the partner.

Something Forward has suggested to me a few times, but I just haven't found the person to impliment is is:

He says to have the Falco laser low/mid whilst the Fox approaches high with FJ nair, or utilizes platforms. This strategy is really powerful but I've found that it requires the team doing it to have very good communication, something that I haven't developed with my static teams partner currently.

 

[Erkekjetter]

Is backwards waveshining better than turn around waveshining? My turn around waveshines are pretty smooth but I'm wondering if I should train myself to do backwards ones.

 

[Dr Peepee]

if you mean for comboing, you could probably get away with doing either one. For shield pressure you might have to turn around at times, but it isn't a big deal overall(especially with the way shield pressure seems to work these days).

So basically, nah you probably don't have to worry about it.

Edit: I meant to say thanks to you when I read that, Ruby, but I never did. So thanks lol.

 

[Doomblaze]

Wow so many posts of people not understanding what I'm saying.

PEOPLE. I AM BEING GRABBED BEFORE THE AERIAL COMES OUT. I AM APPROACHING WITH A LATE AERIAL, THEY RECOGNIZE THIS AND GRAB. I AM NOT GOING AERIAL > SHINE > LATE AERIAL TO THEIR SHIELD. I AM GOING JUMP > DELAYED NAIR TO HIT LOWER ON THEIR SHIELD AND THEY ARE GRABBING ME ON REACTION. IT IS NOT THAT HARD TO UNDERSTAND, ****.

Don't late aerial
That's what we have been saying

@Erkekjetter: It doesnt matter which you do, turnaround looks flashier if you care about being flashy, but they both have you with your back facing the opponent and thats what matters.

@DippnDots: To beat Drephen you have to not CC ever because he is the only shiek that understands that shieks downsmash is the best move in the game (i.e. he ****ing loves downsmash, uses it more than any other shiek i've played against x10).

 

[KikoMePlease]

How should you deal with a Marth coming at you with full hop double fairs?

 

[Mogwai]

shoot that *****!

 

[BigD!!!]

falco in 2v1:

just shl without fastfalling and it will go over fox's head then let him do the hard part!

but yeah i usually either just try to be precise and annoying with lasers or just do stuff like really high dairs; youre mostly only vulnerable to grabs when doing full jump fastfall dairs or something like that and grabs shouldnt be too much of a problem in 2v1

 

[Dr Peepee]

How should you deal with a Marth coming at you with full hop double fairs?

If he retreats with them, then laser him. If he falls toward you with them, then retreat and laser or get under him and ****. I suppose you could also jump over the Fairs too if you really needed to on a platformed stage.

 

[Dynamism?]

Rolling is legite against falco! What you talky bout mogwai!?!?!

Flaco can't move horizontally, rolling is faster than him LOL



Also, don't aerial the shield first...

Run up to him, shine grab LOL

 

[KirbyKaze]

Rolling is legite against falco! What you talky bout mogwai!?!?!

Flaco can't move horizontally, rolling is faster than him LOL

Average running speed (with decent acceleration) and high walking speed =/= no horizontal movement.

 

[PEEF!]

He can sh dair most characters roll distance

 

[FoxLisk]

I can has help? these are tourney sets. i've been playing too much fox lately so more mistakes were technical than usual. any advice that isn't just 'dont miss l cancels' is welcome though!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UtECD_p4CM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtZB04OnTZg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fosva0VTSu0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJsLzHj-3rM

marth is too hard... that's the matchup i'd like more help with. I usually do better against fox but it's hard on corneria. I had to get Redd off marth though.

 

[Rubyiris]

Someone teach me how to laser camp with Falco.

 

[FoxLisk]

watch Eggm and silent wolf videos from around the time of pound 3. i can't do it well myself, but those vids are highly instructive.

 

[`DNS`]

shoot lasers

 

[Cia]

:subscribes in case I need to know Falco stuff:

 

[MacD]

i swear, vanz, kirbykaze and i are slowly taking over the character advice threads

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm everywhere.

o_____o

 

[Dynamism?]

Average running speed (with decent acceleration) and high walking speed =/= no horizontal movement.

If Falco commits to something and you roll, he can't follow.

I'd try to find the Zhu/Mango match where the commentators were getting on their case about rolling so much and it was working, but I'm lazy.

Falco ain't Foxy woxy

 

[Tyson651]

If Falco commits to something and you roll, he can't follow.

I'd try to find the Zhu/Mango match where the commentators were getting on their case about rolling so much and it was working, but I'm lazy.

Falco ain't Foxy woxy

who do u main now?

moved onto sheik? or staying weegee?

 

[unknown522]

I can has help? these are tourney sets. i've been playing too much fox lately so more mistakes were technical than usual. any advice that isn't just 'dont miss l cancels' is welcome though!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UtECD_p4CM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtZB04OnTZg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fosva0VTSu0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJsLzHj-3rM

marth is too hard... that's the matchup i'd like more help with. I usually do better against fox but it's hard on corneria. I had to get Redd off marth though.

You really need tech skill before I can give good advice.

:subscribes in case I need to know Falco stuff:

Welcome to the darkside.

 

[Alukard]

:subscribes in case I need to know Falco stuff:

hahaha ... my ***** jaden is going to the spacie world ... o man ... melee is going to be mvc2 in like half a year more lol

 

[JPOBS]

Gratz On Beating Hbox PP

 

[KirbyKaze]

hahaha ... my ***** jaden is going to the spacie world ... o man ... melee is going to be mvc2 in like half a year more lol

Yeah, all these technical Jigglypuff players winning tournaments.

 

[Mogwai]

Gratz On Beating Hbox PP

sdafjaslkdjf;laksj rvowlr ncasuewhrawjnfkdsj

*high fives PP*

This is probably the greatest news I've ever heard! Can't wait for vids to see what strategy PP adopted to win vs. hbox.

 

[FoxLisk]

You really need tech skill before I can give good advice.

This is dismissive and hard to believe. My tech skill isn't that terrible, and I've seen you give a lot of good, articulate advice before. If nothing else, you can tell me what tech skill is most important to work on before i should worry about other parts of my game. If you didn't feel like helping at all, it's easier to not respond than to throw out non-constructive criticism.

 

[Alukard]

Yeah, all these technical Jigglypuff players winning tournaments.

well actually ... only hbox uses jiggs from start till end of the tourney ... and mango uses falco ... so yea ... still spacie run game

 

[DippnDots]

This is dismissive and hard to believe. My tech skill isn't that terrible, and I've seen you give a lot of good, articulate advice before. If nothing else, you can tell me what tech skill is most important to work on before i should worry about other parts of my game. If you didn't feel like helping at all, it's easier to not respond than to throw out non-constructive criticism.

I think what he means about your tech skill is, it's not that you're not doing the "technical stuff" it's that you're flubbing up way too often, and it's pretty noticeable.

first link, it's easy to tell you're nervous because you spam your lazer so hard. You end up getting into this rhythm where it's easy to call when you're going to lazer, and a lot of times you end up messing it up and shooting it in the wrong direction. Basically, stop lazering so much, you're turning a scalpel into a crutch.

It's also really easy to see when you're about to actually approach, cause you lazer 2-4 times then jump at him with a nair shine. Mix it up man.

You also have a few dumb tech rolls, dumb meaning, you were probably thinking "this'll trick him" but he ended up just waiting and had no trouble punishing you for rolling into him


second link, you really need to work on this match up. It seems against marth you just sorta do your own thing instead of reacting to the player. Plus you do some basic textbook nono's against marth like jumping back onto the stage when he's in easy range to dtilt ftilt or whatever he really wants to do.

Apply the dash dance, don't just do it when he's 20 feet away then jump at him, that doesn't do anything. Multiple times I see you retreat, dash dance like 5 times really really quickly, then just jump back into action, no point at all to doing that, it's essentially you flinching.

Start ledge teching.



watched the last two, seriously stop lazering so much, you're only hurting yourself by not opening up to other safe ways of play, and any competent player is going to be comfortable with getting around lazer spam

Work with comboing off platforms, throw in some wavelands here and there, really it's hard to give you advice until you kill off the bad habits you have.

 

[EWC]

You really need tech skill before I can give good advice.

This post bothered me a enormously. Aside from being a really unhelpful thing to say, it's also pretty insulting. You're basically saying "You're so bad that it's not even worth trying to help you." That sends a really elitist message, and I would hope that top players would be more helpful, or at least maintain a decent level of civility. I don't know if you were just in a bad mood or what, but I think you should try to be a little bit more considerate.

This is dismissive and hard to believe. My tech skill isn't that terrible, and I've seen you give a lot of good, articulate advice before. If nothing else, you can tell me what tech skill is most important to work on before i should worry about other parts of my game. If you didn't feel like helping at all, it's easier to not respond than to throw out non-constructive criticism.

I watched all four of the matches that you posted. There were four major things that I noticed that you could use work on.

First, your lasers don't seem to have much purpose to them. You usually just run do a few retreating and apporaching lasers, then you just run in and attack. Sometimes you randomly throw in an IDJL, but it usually doesn't do much. I think you should think more actively about how you space your lasers, and how you can use them to force your opponent into a weaker position.

Second, you really need to work on following up on your combos. Every time you land a shine or dair, you should be able to combo for a solid 60+ percent most of the time. You seem to get nervous a lot and not go for the follow through. I think the solution to this is jsut to spend some time practicing the basic combos, and just get really comfortable with them.

Third, I noticed that you got shield grabbed several times out of your approaches. This should not happen at all with falco. The problem is that you always do your move really early in the short hop, which leaves you hanging in the air for a while before you can shine. So you should practice doing low aerials and L canceling into shine asap.

Finally, when you are off stage, and your manage to grab the ledge, you usually ledge hop laser or aerial right away. This is really predictable, and easy to punish. You have to realize that once your grab that ledge, although you are not totally in the clear, you do have a moment of safety. This means that you can stall for a little bit before you try to get back on the stage, and that is exactly what you should do. Keep your opponent guessing as to what you're going to do, and you'll find that you can recover a lot more easily.

Hope this helps.

 

[Dr Peepee]

sdafjaslkdjf;laksj rvowlr ncasuewhrawjnfkdsj

*high fives PP*

This is probably the greatest news I've ever heard! Can't wait for vids to see what strategy PP adopted to win vs. hbox.

*returns high five*

Being not afraid of Puff is a good thing, but I found some interesting stuff about her Bairs that I might try to write into my matchup guide for Puff(in the general matchup thread, of course).

I hope people get stuff out of my videos.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

You really need tech skill before I can give good advice.

i don't even get that, do you not see the game out side of techskill? Like you couldn't tell him to laser more/less, switch up his approach or ANYTHING? It's pretty clear the game isn't all about techskill, go tell mango when he picked up falco and beat everyone still, regardless of his junky *** techskill, that he needs more techskill before anything. :embarrass

 

[Cross.]

being able to execute to your characters potential is one of the most important things you need. The game is not "all" techskill but you need to be able to do everything.

and mango has good tech skill, he rarely messes up.

 

[FoxLisk]

Thanks everyone! Thank you especially, unknown, if you hadn't been so rude I wouldn't have gotten other people giving me so much good advice.

DippnDots, I know I have a lot of bad habits, but pointing them out for me is the advice I need, not a prerequisite to giving me good advice. Thanks.

EWC, thanks as well! I know my lasers on marth are ineffective, I've been trying to figure out a way to use them better. It just seems like every time I shoot a low laser he hops over it and gets in my face, and whenever I shoot a higher laser or an IDJ double laser or something he runs up and dash attacks me. Do you have any advice for how to think about spacing my lasers to actually mess with marth's game? I know that's what I'm trying to do, I just have a lot of trouble succeeding.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

being able to execute to your characters potential is one of the most important things you need. The game is not "all" techskill but you need to be able to do everything.

and mango has good tech skill, he rarely messes up.

has, obviously now he does. i said when he picked up falco, as in his earlier falco days, i know his falco/techskill was no where near flawless then either.

 

[EWC]

Well, you essentially have three main types of lasers that you can do. there high and low SHL, and then there's IJDL. Marth can resond to all three in different ways. Let's start with the most obvious point.

Of course, IJDL is most effective as an anti aerial, so you should use it when you think he's going to try to jump over your lower lasers. Note that this should be in anticipation of his jump, not in reaction to it. For example, at ~10 seconds into the first match, the marth double jumps, and then afterward , you do an IDJL. This didn't serve any purpose, since he was already back on the ground, and it left you pretty vunerable. The idea is that you should try to guess when he's going to try to jump, and then snipe him with IDJL. If you can do this even 25% of the time when he jumps into the air, it will really discourage him from leaving the ground, which is good because it means that you can pester him even harder with low lasers.

Now, when marth is on the ground, he has basically two ways that he can maneuver around your lasers. First, if you shoot a high laser, he can crouch/dash under it. Second, if you shoot a low laser, he can short hop over it. The short hop requires more commitment from the marth, and is less dangerous to you, so you should probably make your default to do a low laser. This prevents him from being able to dash around a lot, which is something that got you grabbed several times in your matches.

However, make sure to pay attention to what the marth is doing, and switch up your lasers as necessary. This is really the key. If you get nothing else out of this, then get this: the type of lasers that you should be decided in reaction to what your opponent does to deal with them.

The last thing that marth can do to deal with lasers is to shield them, and then do stuff like wavedash or aerial oos to close the gap. This is where spacing comes into play in a dramatic way. Consider what happens when marth shields a laser at various distances.

If you are far away, then marth has a lot of options. He can safely wavedash oos here, and close the gap, or retreat even further. He can also try to jump over the next laser, which you should know how to handle by now. At this point though, your lasers aren't doing very much in the way of pressure. They are, at most, a slight inconvenience to the marth.

Now consider what happens when the marth is shielding close to you. If you are right on top of him, then you can go into shield pressure mode, which puts you at an advantage if you're smart about it. However, if you are a just little bit away from him, then he can aerial oos or grab you, and then you're toast. So what you've got to if you're going to approach him is get past his **** zone safely.

Now, if you go just a little bit further away, about the distance of one full wavedash, then you are in a really magical position. At this distance, if he shields a laser, he has no safe offensive options. You are too far for him to be able to grab or aerial oos, but close enough that you can react and hit him if he wavedashes or full hops. So the only thing he can do to is roll or wavesdash back. If he rolls toward you, you should be able to **** him. So he has to retreat. If you can chase him while maintaining this perfect spacing, then that's really good.

tldr: laser him in such a way that minimizes his movement options, then punish whatever he has left.

 

[Mogwai]

*returns high five*

Being not afraid of Puff is a good thing, but I found some interesting stuff about her Bairs that I might try to write into my matchup guide for Puff(in the general matchup thread, of course).

I hope people get stuff out of my videos.

awesome, ****, I should really start writing stuff again...

I've been sorta taking a break from this game, but it looks like PC's play more again, so maybe that'll remotivate me

 

[Dr Peepee]

So PC is playing more after all? Niiiice

Do what you gotta do Mogwai, you're holding it down with questions and all right now so I didn't really notice that haha.

 

[FoxLisk]

@EWC thanks, that was a great explanation. i know (and don't use well) a bunch of that, but the marth-specific laser spacing advice is really useful. I'm gonna try to put that into use now.