PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[unknown522]

I don't think this is Dr Peepee's Advice Thread, so much as it is unknown522's advice thread.

Sorry.....

Unknown is better at getting that stuff done.

lol, it was only 2 or 3 players that I gave advice to. Yedi PM'd me asking for critique last night, so I gave it to him.

I still think that PP would be able to give better advice for falco than I could.

 

[Rubyiris]

lol, it was only 2 or 3 players that I gave advice to. Yedi PM'd me asking for critique last night, so I gave it to him.

I still think that PP would be able to give better advice for falco than I could.

I think you're fairly qualified to help people out.

 

[DippnDots]

sheik can nair nout of shield pressure? learn something new every day

 

[FoxLisk]

thank you very much unknown. i do understand your side of the argument for not giving advice to a player who messes up the basics, i just thought it was worth arguing my side too, and that if you were of that opinion it was in better taste to simply not respond to my post. there's really no harsh feelings from me, i think you're an asset to the community from all the advice you do provide.

Edit: one question:

1: you point out a time where I didn't SH a dair, where I almost ate a tipper. that was after a doubleshine on which the second shine brought me into the air. Should I have just not doubleshined? should I only doubleshine after I have it down to where I can stay on the ground 100% of the time? if i do get in the air a little on the second shine, what's my best try from there?

 

[JPOBS]

100% grounded double shines are great if you can do it but not entirely necessary.

The only time you really need to double shine is when you call a attempted sheild grab or aerial OoS, or to beat another spacies shine oos. In which case, doing the second shine in the air is fine as long as you waveland away onto an upper platform or something.

or you cuz be like shiz/jman and pressure with double shines for kicks.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Blunted was doing at minimum 4 Multishines on my shield into early Dairs and JC grabs in friendlies at Unknown's house when he was in town randomly. Every time he touched my shield I just heard "Blip" four times and sometimes even more "Blips" than that. I could do little more than roll or sidestep or wait because everything else got my bum ***** by shine combos.

Stupid ****ing broken *** mother****ing pigeon monstrosity.

Oh hi Falco boards.

My only consolation was killing him in one move a lot.

 

[prog]

Then the Car Ride came...

I saw PP driving from RoM2. I'm not a extremely fast (g$) driver, but I dusted him on the way to the GWB.

unknown, did you switch mains or what?

 

[Alukard]

Blunted was doing at minimum 4 Multishines on my shield into early Dairs and JC grabs in friendlies at Unknown's house when he was in town randomly. Every time he touched my shield I just heard "Blip" four times and sometimes even more "Blips" than that. I could do little more than roll or sidestep or wait because everything else got my bum ***** by shine combos.

Stupid ****ing broken *** mother****ing pigeon monstrosity.

Oh hi Falco boards.

My only consolation was killing him in one move a lot.

LMFAO <33333 this made my ****ing day

 

[KirbyKaze]

unknown, did you switch mains or what?

No but he realized that he really likes it when people stop moving when he shoots their kneecaps.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I saw PP driving from RoM2. I'm not a extremely fast (g$) driver, but I dusted him on the way to the GWB.

LMAO

I don't think there's much of a point defending myself there. Usually I am a little faster though lol.

 

[unknown522]

Blunted was doing at minimum 4 Multishines on my shield into early Dairs and JC grabs in friendlies at Unknown's house when he was in town randomly. Every time he touched my shield I just heard "Blip" four times and sometimes even more "Blips" than that. I could do little more than roll or sidestep or wait because everything else got my bum ***** by shine combos.

Stupid ****ing broken *** mother****ing pigeon monstrosity.

Oh hi Falco boards.

My only consolation was killing him in one move a lot.

I can vouch for this.

unknown, did you switch mains or what?

naw.

I think you're fairly qualified to help people out.

thanks!

 

[Rubyiris]

No but he realized that he really likes it when people stop moving when he shoots their kneecaps.

This made me laugh. <3

 

[Rubyiris]

Double posting due to the thread being inactive:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBsH8MwHtTk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l93qgBYdGmQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQQHRXTeZ-w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu5NQiNNeQs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx8OvYCU8Jo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEGCN9yGDrs

Omitted the first few games because of how bad I was playing. Nobody wants to watch me mess up basic things for two full matches.

I feel I played very well, and so did my opponent. Alot of my bad habits were punished pretty heavily, etc.

Rather than watching only one or two of the videos, since we had vastly different strategies for every stage/etc that we played on, so if people could at least view the majority of them, and give critique, it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[JPOBS]

i watched all of em and jsut came up with 3 quick things

1. if you're going to overshoot your aerials through their sheild, either space it so that the shine still hits, or forego the shine and uptilt or immidiately bair or something. too many times you over shoot aerials and did useless shines and the peach just bair'd or something out a sheild and punished you.

2. I feel like you could have got a lot more out of your combos. you upair'd and let him get away in situations where i feel like a dair->uptilt would have combo'd for more payoff.

3. your approach is incredibly static. 9/10 you laser, laser laser then shffl Nair into them. The peach wasnt very good at dealing with pressure and would just sit there and shield like 5 laser and let yu just jump in with a nair but vs other opponents this strat would get wrecked by simple things like wd back oos -> ****. needs much more variance

overall you played well. I feel like you were just straight up better than the peach and its hard to give much advice when you overwhelm your opponent with lasers and stick them in thier sheild for half the match.

 

[Rubyiris]

@1. Thats mostly my spacing just sucking ****, lol. I'll get better at it over time.

@2. dair > utilt doesn't combo. Peach gets out of stun quickly enough to stuff the utilt with nair. I usually just did a uair or bair depending on his di because it was the safest option, and for positioning.

@3. Oh believe me, my shield pressure is usually worlds worse than it was in those videos. I felt I had better shield pressure in these games than I've had in months. I'm finally starting to remember to change up my shield pressure with multi-shines and shine-grabs and laser > grab, etc when I normally just laser > aerial > shine > repeat. You should see my older videos. There's little to no variance. rofl.

I'm better than the peach, but that's pretty much only match up experience. The peach player has only been playing since last summer, and beat me in seriouslies at a small house-warming smashfest/tournament we went to Saturday. Compare that to the fact that I've been playing on and off since late 05. Sure I only started really entering tournaments since January 09, but I already had a strong grasp of fundamentals before I started entering tournaments, and I have a little over 5 months of experience on him. It's good motivation to do everything in my power to not let him get better than me, but it's hard.

 

[DippnDots]

you hit the peach with a dair-utilt in the first 20 seconds of the first video

 

[Rubyiris]

dair utilt will hit peach. You gotta be fast and have the dair come out right before you hit the ground then utilt immediately. i'm sure there's other ways too but can say for certain

He was talking about dairing an airborne peach, then fastfalling into a utilt, since he was talking about uairing/bairing as "not getting enough out of my combos"

 

[dairspike]

If the Peach is going to nair before you can utilt, just shield it and punish. Otherwise utilt hitbox ***** Peach's everything except fair and dsmash for the most part.

 

[SPAWN]

DrPP, can you please critique Yedi vs me? I had to play Plank this weekend and I really hate doing Sheik dittos LOL. Falco's so much fun!

Also, I've been legitimately using him in tournament (beat D1's Marth on FD :D but still lost to Plank's Sheik T_T ). All I gotta say is Falco is ****.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Sorry Spawn, I get distracted too easily. =(

I'll do it today, I promise.

And I'll look over yours as well, ruby.

 

[DippnDots]

@2. dair > utilt doesn't combo. Peach gets out of stun quickly enough to stuff the utilt with nair.

this is what i mean, fast fall to get under peach before you down air (hit her with your head and shoulders [shampoo reference]), you'll get grounded before she does this way and the utilt will out space her if she tries to nair or dair.

this is delayed though, so if you think she'll get outta stun time before you can dair her, which is a big possibility at lower percents, you can just drop a nair into her, it's pretty easy to follow up on this, especially if you land on a platform.

it's pretty situational, the uair is the best for racking up %, they all have a place really.

 

[SPAWN]

DrPP- It's alright man. I completely understand...one of my friends wants me to look over his stuff but I just get so distracted taking that 10-15 minutes and watching LOL.

Also, what is ideal to do after a multishine (i only do 2 because people are starting to really shield di a lot more) for mixups?

I'm thinking multishine>grab, multishine>fallbacknair, multishine>wd back [this one is so ****ing hard (I've probably put in a grand total of 14-20 hours trying to learn this just going through all the very finest basics of wave shining/dashing/multishining consistently/etc)... I also think it's the best one of all these].

I think the reason it's taking me so long to learn multishine>wd back is because I used to (for about 3-4 years now up until a few weeks ago) waveshine by doing the shine>direction>jump>airdodge into ground. Now I do it properly with doing shine>jump>direction>airdodge into ground. :D

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah, double shine to grab would be reallllly good(Shiz did that some at CA), and I've never thought about waveshine back, but it also sounds great. If shield DI is that common, then I'd probably go with grab or fadeaway nair as the two most prominent mixups. Those cover a lot of options and aren't super risky.

 

[JPOBS]

He was talking about dairing an airborne peach, then fastfalling into a utilt, since he was talking about uairing/bairing as "not getting enough out of my combos"

Ya but it does combo.

You have to jump/DJ above them and fast fall through them with the dair into an uptilt

or if you're on the ground and you shine them into the air above a platform then you can do it safely because you'll land on the platform and l-cancel before she gets out of stun and can combo her as long as you dont strong spike her into a platform tech.

examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZC4gUcJWc4#t=2m31s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFkrDsDBc9A&feature=related#t=0m7s

in the second link, oyu can do that sort of thing on the lower platforms too. just keep in mind that the uptilt hitbox is huge and will usually win out.

you gatta risk it to get the biscuit homie.

 

[SPAWN]

I mean, if you don't multishine for a little bit so they think they can try and challenge your shieldrape game then multishine wd back is great. I checked it out and if you get either shine and hit with it, you can keep your combo going much easier (which is like a 30-40 more damage increase guaranteed as long as you don't mess it up).

DrPP- Add it to your game and then when people ask you about it be like, "Yeah idk what happened man, I had this idea in game and it ended up working out" LOL. <3 Also lemme know how many tries it takes you to get (since I know you're a pretty safe yet really technical player).

Edit: Forgot to mention that multishine>wd back is really only detrimentally useful against Fastfallers shields (since you can combo ffers much easier from a shine). If anyone has some great experiences vs mid/light weight characters please let me know.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well, when I actually get a cube to myself, I'll be sure to mess with it Spawn. It does sound like something I should start messing with at this point.

 

[Rubyiris]

If the Peach is going to nair before you can utilt, just shield it and punish. Otherwise utilt hitbox ***** Peach's everything except fair and dsmash for the most part.

utilt clashes with dsmash.

 

[Rubyiris]

Ya but it does combo.

You have to jump/DJ above them and fast fall through them with the dair into an uptilt

or if you're on the ground and you shine them into the air above a platform then you can do it safely because you'll land on the platform and l-cancel before she gets out of stun and can combo her as long as you dont strong spike her into a platform tech.

examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZC4gUcJWc4#t=2m31s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFkrDsDBc9A&feature=related#t=0m7s

in the second link, oyu can do that sort of thing on the lower platforms too. just keep in mind that the uptilt hitbox is huge and will usually win out.

you gatta risk it to get the biscuit homie.

Except it doesn't combo unless the peach is just slow/inexperienced.

Even if falco double jumps and ff drills, the percentage that the "combo" works doesn't leave them in stun long enough for it to be a legitimate combo. They can mash out.

I have immense amounts of experience in the falco vs peach match up. I know what combos do and don't work. Hell I even tried the combo several times in the set, and got stuffed every time, and I KNOW I wasn't slow on the execution.

 

[SPAWN]

DrPP- It's just like something I thought of for when my Falco gets more consistent and my tech skill is at a point where that's not the aspect of the game I'll be having trouble with. For you/Shiz/Chops/Zhu you guys don't have to really worry (for the most part) about hitting that waveshine/multishine/lcancel (this everyone has to worry about I guess because sometimes there's a few things that can be tricky/not put into muscle memory yet) so you can incorporate it. ;P

 

[JPOBS]

Except it doesn't combo unless the peach is just slow/inexperienced.

Even if falco double jumps and ff drills, the percentage that the "combo" works doesn't leave them in stun long enough for it to be a legitimate combo. They can mash out.

I have immense amounts of experience in the falco vs peach match up. I know what combos do and don't work. Hell I even tried the combo several times in the set, and got stuffed every time, and I KNOW I wasn't slow on the execution.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGDeVFEo6XM&feature=related#t=0m14s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGDeVFEo6XM&feature=related#t=0m38s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brhbCqFZULU&feature=related#t=0m12s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZzV_-kothU#t=0m37s

I dont know what more you want me to tell you for you to believe me. other people in this thread have agreed with me. FF dair->uptilt combos just l2doit.

 

[Rubyiris]

Armada could have gotten out in all of those examples by either floating, or mashing nair, but he didn't.

All it shows is that Armada lacks experience in that match up. There is no "learn to do it." there is just "The combo works if the peach is slow/doesn't know what he/she is doing."

In the vids that you used yourself as an example, the peach could have floated out of your range and punished your whiffed utilt with nair/fair.

Sure, the combo can occasionally work, but it's not a true combo, and as such, uair and bair are the safer options, which is generally why I chose to do them over attempting to continue the combo and potentially get stuffed.

I have years of peach practice, so I generally know what does, and does not work.

 

[Dr Peepee]

@Ruby(after watching matches 3,4, and 6): You grabbed after doing a delayed aerial once, which is kind of weird since you didn't shine first, but it didn't get punished, you might have flubbed some timing for shine after a delayed aerial on her shield, low percent Utilts probably can't be followed up Uairs it looks like(due to Nair spam), it's usually not a good idea to fall on a floating Peach(even challenge from a platform), you overshot your aerials a little too much at times, which helped your Bair spacing but hurt your shine spacing I believe, try not to spam a shoulder button to tech if you slide along a platform so you don't airdodge off of it, try not to delay your DJs after you land a shine if you want to combo with a Dair, DI Dsmash down by the edge to get hit back towards the stage, sometimes you Dair'd Peach into the ground and didn't follow up(not even a Dsmash), laser to jab is really risky and not worth it to me, you recovered onto the stage/high and with side Bs a lot, recovering with lasers when Peach is very close to the edge is also extremely risky, you should look for more Bairs instead of Uairs when you're under Peach so you can set up that edgeguard easier+they deal more damage I think, I guess delay the Dair after a shine at low %s as long as possible(yes it sort of contradicts what I said earlier, but I think there might just be a strict timing for the Dair....not sure).

 

[DippnDots]

It doesnt matter if they wiggle out of the tumble animation and try to di away from the utilt, they dont have enough time and have too much momentum downwards. It doesn't matter if they try to nair or dair because the utilt will hit them before their hitbox hits you, and since aerials can't clank with grounded moves, you're going to hit them. The only thing you have to worry about is getting the dair off. And you cant just jump and dair them, you have to set up the dair to combo into the utilt, which is what we've been trying to express.

beyond the utilt issue, i saw you recover onto the stage (not the ledge) quite a bit, just try to kill that habit, yeah you can get away with it every now and then but it costs you a stock more than once. In general you're kind of quick to recover, i think if the peach had made better use of turnips it could have gotten you in trouble.

just saw in match six you tried to dair into the utilt and got naired, this is because you hit the peach with the dair while you were above her, which is what we've been talking about. it's at 2:10ish

 

[unknown522]

Armada could have gotten out in all of those examples by either floating, or mashing nair, but he didn't.

All it shows is that Armada lacks experience in that match up. There is no "learn to do it." there is just "The combo works if the peach is slow/doesn't know what he/she is doing."

In the vids that you used yourself as an example, the peach could have floated out of your range and punished your whiffed utilt with nair/fair.

Sure, the combo can occasionally work, but it's not a true combo, and as such, uair and bair are the safer options, which is generally why I chose to do them over attempting to continue the combo and potentially get stuffed.

I have years of peach practice, so I generally know what does, and does not work.

that's not true. If you do it on a platform, it legitimately combos on any character. On FD, the peach can mash out, but that's about it.

Also, some percents that it doesn't combo, if they are able to jump, you will catch them out of their DJ start up. If they try to airdodge, it takes about 7 frames to get the invincibility, so they will just get hit. It also beats their aerial.

I too have experience in that matchup.

 

[SPAWN]

I was able to dair (late dair) >utilt peach with turn at around 15 percent or so. The earliest dair>utilt doesn't combo til like 35 or so, so just do a somewhat late dair after you get in 3-5 lasers LOL. This was in training mode btw...

Yayy, after practicing for an additional hour or so (haven't practiced Falco in a while) I can finally multishine wd like 2/3 of the time... once I get that percentage to 10/10 I'll start incorporating the multishining into my game so anyways...

This needs some player vs player testing but...
I'm pretty sure you can just multishine twice and then just either:

A) grab/nair(depending on if you want to get more damage in or if you think a grab would be better in the situation)

B) wavedash if you see them get hit by either one of the shines

C) do another shine after your 2 multishines (so do 3 multishines). This is kind of ridiculous to do on reaction but I bet you could probably do it if you saw the other player's grabbing animation come out or something. I really dislike this option since it gets ***** by shield di/it's hard to react to and get off that shine/insert other bad reasons here. I figured I'd at least list it since it is an option to do I guess...

 

[unknown522]

I was able to dair (late dair) >utilt peach with turn at around 15 percent or so. The earliest dair>utilt doesn't combo til like 35 or so, so just do a somewhat late dair after you get in 3-5 lasers LOL. This was in training mode btw...

Yayy, after practicing for an additional hour or so (haven't practiced Falco in a while) I can finally multishine wd like 2/3 of the time... once I get that percentage to 10/10 I'll start incorporating the multishining into my game so anyways...

This needs some player vs player testing but...
I'm pretty sure you can just multishine twice and then just either:

A) grab/nair(depending on if you want to get more damage in or if you think a grab would be better in the situation)

B) wavedash if you see them get hit by either one of the shines

C) do another shine after your 2 multishines (so do 3 multishines). This is kind of ridiculous to do on reaction but I bet you could probably do it if you saw the other player's grabbing animation come out or something. I really dislike this option since it gets ***** by shield di/it's hard to react to and get off that shine/insert other bad reasons here. I figured I'd at least list it since it is an option to do I guess...

all I have to say is this:

Blunted was doing at minimum 4 Multishines on my shield into early Dairs and JC grabs in friendlies at Unknown's house when he was in town randomly. Every time he touched my shield I just heard "Blip" four times and sometimes even more "Blips" than that. I could do little more than roll or sidestep or wait because everything else got my bum ***** by shine combos.

Stupid ****ing broken *** mother****ing pigeon monstrosity.

Oh hi Falco boards.

My only consolation was killing him in one move a lot.

Also, after 20%-40% (or until they get knocked over by the first d-air), you can combo late d-air -> another d-air -> shine on any character. It's really gay.

 

[SPAWN]

I don't feel like learning how to do 4 multishines though plus what I said is a lot safer to do since it's less technical and more reaction based (I main Sheik I don't know if other people will like having a more reaction based tech skill). Plus, it doesn't get shield di'd away>***** :D

KirbyKaze stop being a noob and l2shielddi. ;P

Also with the dair dair shine combo... can't they tech out of it or do they never hit the ground? :D If they hit the ground I'd rather just laser reset them since they most likely won't tech and even if they do I cover most options anyways. Is it vs any character or just Peach?

 

[JPOBS]

Dair-Dair->shine is something i do on instinct just depednign on when it looks like it will work. And it works on like pretty much everyone except the fastfallers and i've never done it to sheik but it probably works on her too.

Armada could have gotten out in all of those examples by either floating, or mashing nair, but he didn't.

All it shows is that Armada lacks experience in that match up. There is no "learn to do it." there is just "The combo works if the peach is slow/doesn't know what he/she is doing."

In the vids that you used yourself as an example, the peach could have floated out of your range and punished your whiffed utilt with nair/fair.

Sure, the combo can occasionally work, but it's not a true combo, and as such, uair and bair are the safer options, which is generally why I chose to do them over attempting to continue the combo and potentially get stuffed.

I have years of peach practice, so I generally know what does, and does not work.

lol did you really just try to tell me armada lacks experience in the falco matchup?

i lol'd.

anyway, fine, **** it then, you can be so stubborn sometimes. Stick to only bairing/uairing then it honestly doesnt matter to me what you do.

 

[KirbyKaze]

unknown522 posting (forgot to log out):

I don't feel like learning how to do 4 multishines though plus what I said is a lot safer to do since it's less technical and more reaction based (I main Sheik I don't know if other people will like having a more reaction based tech skill). Plus, it doesn't get shield di'd away>***** :D

KirbyKaze stop being a noob and l2shielddi. ;P

Also with the dair dair shine combo... can't they tech out of it or do they never hit the ground? :D If they hit the ground I'd rather just laser reset them since they most likely won't tech and even if they do I cover most options anyways. Is it vs any character or just Peach?

if the character is under 35%, the d-air definitely won't get knocked off the ground. If they are at high enough percent to get knocked over by the second d-air, then maybe they can DI away and tech, but I highly doubt it.

 

[Roneblaster]

hi guys, I'm Dr. Pee Pee.

I suck at Falco dittoes, but I can **** the 2nd best player in the world, 3-1 TWICE.

(<3)