Project M Social Thread

[[TSON]]

um shanus you do know when you set the return command to 0 the characters will end up like lucario theyll hit the ledge and die if they try to aim for it. I'm just saying if it happens to lucario who knows who else it might screw up.

an example:


I do however have trust in shanus and really looking forward to this game.

Um, yeah, that's kind of the point

Brawl's frictions are universally higher than Melee's. Many DACUS rely on this low friction to be effective. Since we've increased the friction, many DACUS travel around half their old length but can still be used effectively.

 

[shanus]

um shanus you do know when you set the return command to 0 the characters will end up like lucario theyll hit the ledge and die if they try to aim for it. I'm just saying if it happens to lucario who knows who else it might screw up.

an example:


I do however have trust in shanus and really looking forward to this game.

Uh. No.

Setting it to 0 does not result in a lucario crash, as lucario has a separate action which is called upon hitting a wall and proceeds to a separate crash subaction.

Setting it to 0 just makes it where characters can't grab the ledge.

For example, if you set it to 0 during marths upB during the frames during which he rises, then reenable once at the peak, it will then snap when he is within range after the rising is complete but NOT during hitlag.

 

[xDD-Master]

What about Snakes (<3333) Dacus, Snake at least wasnt a melee character so I dont know how much you changed his friction. Hopefully its still useful, since Snake <33333 Da Bess! :D

 

[.Marik]

What about Snakes (<3333) Dacus, Snake at least wasnt a melee character so I dont know how much you changed his friction. Hopefully its still useful, since Snake <33333 Da Bess! :D

Snake's DACUS is pretty much the same. They've lowered fricton so he resembles his Brawl+ version.

At least from my experience playing Project M, that's what it felt like.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Check out the Brawl Tactical Discussion forum. You'll lose all hope in humanity.

Why? That's kind of uncalled for.

Snake's DACUS is pretty much the same. They've lowered fricton so he resembles his Brawl+ version.

At least from my experience playing Project M, that's what it felt like.

Yeah, it definately suits him well.

 

[L/A/W]

^^
have you read the posts in there? they are unbelievable

 

[Plum]

Snake's DACUS is shorter, but it is still very useful.
It doesn't aid his camping game as much because he can't run away as well, which is a definite plus when it comes to turning Snake into a more offensive character (I'm sure you'll be seeing a lot of planned changes for Snake in streams soon ).
Another positive of the shorter distance is that it makes Snake's traveling across the stage options more diverse. When he wants to get across the stage quickly he can now use an AGT with a grenade to move instead of a DACUS depending on the situation. When you do an AGT as close to the ground as possible you get similar distance to his current DACUS, so using them depends totally on the situation. His DACUS being shorter was a side effect of him needing more friction, but to be totally honest it is still a very good option and in no way is it overly nerfed or anything, on top of it suiting his character better than his lolwut DACUS distance from Brawl.
AGT also allows him to move from place to place in the air quickly which can open up a lot of fairly unique approach options.

 

[DotheDiddyMonkeyDance]

Uh. No.

Setting it to 0 does not result in a lucario crash, as lucario has a separate action which is called upon hitting a wall and proceeds to a separate crash subaction.

Setting it to 0 just makes it where characters can't grab the ledge.

For example, if you set it to 0 during marths upB during the frames during which he rises, then reenable once at the peak, it will then snap when he is within range after the rising is complete but NOT during hitlag.

ahh I see sorry I sort of missunderstood the point from before.

 

[Akuma2120]

So I've probably missed this, but is there going to be a hybrid airdodge or will it be just Melee airdodge? I'm guessing the hybrid would cause problems?

 

[Gardevior]

Melee airdodge because Brawl airdodge is too safe/defensive.

 

[Plum]

So I've probably missed this, but is there going to be a hybrid airdodge or will it be just Melee airdodge? I'm guessing the hybrid would cause problems?

Well it is Project Melee...

 

[camelot]

Why? That's kind of uncalled for.

Ehh, from the countless Metaknight discussions that go absolutely nowhere (even after 1000+ pages of discussion), to the talk of making Final Destination a counterpick, to... uh, this, the Brawl Tactical Discussion board is essentially a breeding ground for frustration. It's ridiculous.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Brawl General Discussion is good for its laughs.

Liking the progress here!

 

[GP&B]

Wow, a good amount of that is pretty bad to read...

 

[kaizo13]

Well it is Project Melee...

actually Plum, this Project started as "Project Brawlee"......but it seems Shanus has come to his senses and decided to keep MAD only, and did something about reverse ledge grabbing and footstooling. (<3 u Shanus

Spoiler

don't hurt me

)

anyways, speaking of Snake.... I'm hoping you guys are leaning (back), more towards his explosive grenades. I understand the stun grenades were just a test/experiment, but like i said before, they didn't quite work out.

and honestly, i don't mind nerfing/removing character's DACUS for an exchange of friction cuz well....... friction=Melee, Dacus=Brawl

if we want the same character control Melee had, we need friction....none of that sloppiness that Brawl consists of (a fast fall aerial on a slope is like riding a roller coaster)


EDIT: wait, if we make it like Melee where you have to dash cancel to u-smash....does that kill DACUS? and i do hope it is meleefied because running>u-smash is too easy...and is not melee

EDIT2: and yes, i'm one of those Melee vets that wants the main mechanics to function exactly as they did in Melee.....just saying cuz i keep getting flamed for it...^^;

so yeah, just respond with a constructive comment instead of telling me to go play Melee....ty <3

 

[Strong Badam]

did someone in here just expect brawl discussion to NOT to be awful?

also project m is like... so good... you guys will **** in your pants when its released.

btw dawg, we had hybrid air dodge for a while because MAD wasn't completely done yet. lol.
DACUS's so far aren't ridiculous cuz we've added friction to a lot of chars. Snake's only goes like... the distance he'd travel after a dash attack. It's almost as if it makes sense. GG Sakurai.
and I hate the friction crap in Barwl, I can't wait until that ish is fixed.

i am on your side in the melee mechanics department. unfortunately i'm like the only one who wants no-grabbing the ledge while facing the wrong way.......

 

[DtJ Jungle]

JC Usmash and DACUS would have two different functions, if I understand the two correctly. when you JC something you lose almost all the momentum from your dash, where that isn't the case with DACUS. So to answer your question, No JC Usmash wouldn't "kill" DACUS.

that's if what i'm assuming is correct

 

[xDD-Master]

Squirtle's reversed Jump Canceled UpSmash goes about 3/4 of FD, his Dacus is like... 1/10? Just wanting to say

It depends really on the character :o

 

[kaizo13]

just 1 out of 1,000 reasons why we need Melee landing detection

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=238BPPK4xd0&feature=related

 

[ValTroX]

those are some serious skills on that video kaizo

 

[JCaesar]

anyways, speaking of Snake.... I'm hoping you guys are leaning (back), more towards his explosive grenades. I understand the stun grenades were just a test/experiment, but like i said before, they didn't quite work out.

In what way did they not "work out"?

EDIT: wait, if we make it like Melee where you have to dash cancel to u-smash....does that kill DACUS? and i do hope it is meleefied because running>u-smash is too easy...and is not melee

You are talking about 3 different things which are all unrelated. DACUS exists because you can cancel your dash attack into other things, and I doubt very much we will be removing that, since it's a neat little AT and not broken. I don't know if we are able to get rid of C-stick usmashes out of run, but I don't really see any reason to either. Hitting up+A isn't that much harder than hitting C-stick, is it? C-stick is just slightly faster.

i am on your side in the melee mechanics department. unfortunately i'm like the only one who wants no-grabbing the ledge while facing the wrong way.......

? A lot of people want that. And it's already partially implemented.

 

[shanus]

did someone in here just expect brawl discussion to NOT to be awful?

also project m is like... so good... you guys will **** in your pants when its released.

btw dawg, we had hybrid air dodge for a while because MAD wasn't completely done yet. lol.
DACUS's so far aren't ridiculous cuz we've added friction to a lot of chars. Snake's only goes like... the distance he'd travel after a dash attack. It's almost as if it makes sense. GG Sakurai.
and I hate the friction crap in Barwl, I can't wait until that ish is fixed.

i am on your side in the melee mechanics department. unfortunately i'm like the only one who wants no-grabbing the ledge while facing the wrong way.......

Considering I implemented no reverse grabbing like a month or two ago, I think you are wrong. The only caveat is that is disables reverse grabbing only initially (that is, disables hugging), but after a bit of time, you can grab again. That has to do with fighter.pac calling a subroutine 21C20, which is used throughout almost all air moves and to disable late-jump or late-fall reverse grabbing, I'd need to some *major* reworking of fighter.pac that just simply isn't feasible.

 

[Bandit]

I love how people who haven't played the game declare things "don't work" or "aren't Melee" because they watched it on the stream.

 

[Akuma2120]

Melee airdodge because Brawl airdodge is too safe/defensive.

I liked it because it was more realistic, besides I find it that the Brawl airdodge isn't that safe if you do it near the ground, when you hit the ground you could shield but then you get grabbed

It's probably just me but that's how I saw the airdodges, melee's seems safer to me especially closer to the ground

 

[kaizo13]

In what way did they not "work out"?=

sry JC, i guess in the end it IS more or so of an opinion. But....to me it didn't quite look like a good idea and i don't see a reason to change it. idk i guess explosives just make more sense to me plus i don't like the effect/momentum the stun grenades give. But yeah, I fully respect all of the dev's ideas but it would be nice if us "fans" had some sort of say in it. (if devs are leaning more towards stun grenades would a poll seem fair?)

I love how people who haven't played the game declare things "don't work" or "aren't Melee" because they watched it on the stream.

i love how all your posts on this thread are negative/unhealthy comments. It seems the only time you post is when you see the chance to flame somebody. Don't be cocky just because you get to play the game, instead appreciate the fact that you were given that opportunity and give constructive feedback instead of being a "border-line troll"

 

[JCaesar]

sry JC, i guess in the end it IS more or so of an opinion. But....to me it didn't quite look like a good idea and i don't see a reason to change it.

It drastically reduces Snake's ability to nade camp without making them useless. Is that not a good enough reason?

 

[Shell]

I'm the process of a Snake rebuild. I will work on making the Flash grenades more appealing (although we will never include anything that gets overall bad feedback from playtesters), among many other small tweaks and improvements. Expect to see it all together by next Saturday's stream... maaaaybe this Saturday's....

 

[kaizo13]

*posted before Shell*

how do stun grenades kill camping? they do no damage? you would still be able to camp no?. idk i see them like Link's bombs. They can be used in the same manner but would you give link stun bombs? no.

the point i'm trying to make is that you can camp with anything (link's bombs, arrows etc.). I understand snake's nades might be stronger/faster or what-not but i don't see the reason to nerf it. So what if it makes the character a little bit better, it's a character trait that isn't broken. (keep in mind i am aware you are trying to make Snake more offensive)but explosive grenades do not equal auto-win plus i am pretty certain Snake isn't at the top of the list in P:M

i honestly would find stun grenades far more annoying that nade camping cuz nobody likes being stunned and unable to move. Atleast with explosives you can DI


EDIT: sounds good SHeLL

 

[JCaesar]

They have a smaller AoE and do less damage and cannot kill. They are worse for camping, but the stun makes them a good approach. They could however use a shorter fuse imo.

You don't think that nade camping is a dominate strategy for Snake in vBrawl? Because explosive grenades work the same way here. Did you not see the B+ finals from Pound 4? We're just trying to make him less nade-centric.

 

[kaizo13]

well i said what i needed to say....let's just wait and see what SHeLL cooks up ^^;

decreasing the AoE and killing power on explosive grenades would be more than enough of a nerf imo (although i don't really find the AoE to be oversized) it's a freaken grenade for godsake

and for the camping part, it's just part of Snake's playstyle (i don't see stun grenades leaping THAT much towards offensiveness) if you would just shorten the fuse on explosive nades it would reduce his camping abilities by a bit, do we really need to go beyond that?

 

[jalued]

well i said what i needed to say....let's just wait and see what SHeLL cooks up ^^;

decreasing the AoE and killing power on explosive grenades would be more than enough of a nerf imo (although i don't really find the AoE to be oversized) it's a freaken grenade for godsake

and for the camping part, it's just part of Snake's playstyle (i don't see stun grenades leaping THAT much towards offensiveness) if you would just shorten the fuse on explosive nades it would reduce his camping abilities by a bit, do we really need to go beyond that?

I think the problem is that snake's camping style is very brawl-ish and would not fit or be very effective in a melee enviroment.Maybe stun granades would act more like falco's melee lasers and that is why they are being considered.

Im just procrastinating though...

 

[humble]

I actually like the idea of flash nades, though a shorter fuse+AGT sounds pretty scary.

 

[Deleted member]

I liked it because it was more realistic, besides I find it that the Brawl airdodge isn't that safe if you do it near the ground, when you hit the ground you could shield but then you get grabbed

It's probably just me but that's how I saw the airdodges, melee's seems safer to me especially closer to the ground

BAD + FFing + Melee Gravity with Fox/Falco. Imagine that, but now imagine them shining when they hit the ground so grabs are impossible or shielding your punishments.

 

[humble]

BAD was just too good a defensive option, as with brawl shield.

 

[Deleted member]

On another note, isn't the pace of gameplay, melee gravity, and snake's ability to be combo'd to hell a nerf enough on his grenade camping?

It makes him more careful about his nade spacing and placement and his own nades can help him get out of being combo'd. The increased gravity means KO's off the top occur later and inherently nerf nades.

 

[I R MarF]

well i said what i needed to say....let's just wait and see what SHeLL cooks up ^^;

decreasing the AoE and killing power on explosive grenades would be more than enough of a nerf imo (although i don't really find the AoE to be oversized) it's a freaken grenade for godsake

and for the camping part, it's just part of Snake's playstyle (i don't see stun grenades leaping THAT much towards offensiveness) if you would just shorten the fuse on explosive nades it would reduce his camping abilities by a bit, do we really need to go beyond that?

Snake can toss a couple of frags in the amount of time lets say, Peach, can pull up one turnip. Couple that with the fact they explode, have a fuse, and fighting on Final Destination you are limiting an enemy's approach options severely. Stun grenades should operate similar to Link's bombs except they have less knockback... which would completely change their use. It also wouldn't hurt to have x number of seconds pass before you can draw another grenade.

However, I do agree with you that Snake's playstyle was obvioulsy intended to camp and control the stage with weapons such as C4s, Mines, Mortor, etc., but with those already at his disposal grenades being stripped of their camping abilities is a minimal blow to his game.

 

[Plum]

On another note, isn't the pace of gameplay, melee gravity, and snake's ability to be combo'd to hell a nerf enough on his grenade camping?

It makes him more careful about his nade spacing and placement and his own nades can help him get out of being combo'd. The increased gravity means KO's off the top occur later and inherently nerf nades.

As somebody who plays Snake more than any other character in PM, I will say that Snake's most effective strategy is to basically play like it's vBrawl. The pace of Melee really doesn't do THAT much to limit his ability to play like vBrawl with few exceptions like Falco who force him into a different playstyle through lasers. He's a character who has positive attributes that are so stupidly good in some cases that they can be abused in any climate, even in a fast paced Melee world.

Now, I play Snake very offensively in PM just because I find that style to be more enjoyable, but I completely recognize that my Snake can only get better the campier I get. He's a character that has offensive options, but just doesn't get nearly the same level of reward as he gets when camping. I just don't want to play him campy because it makes for a much less exciting match to play and watch.

That is why Shell is trying to change his character to award a more offensive style to the point where it is actually a better idea than camping.

 

[Deleted member]

That is why Shell is trying to change his character to award a more offensive style to the point where it is actually a better idea than camping.

That's pretty sound in theory to convert his playstyle to meet an offensive based game.

Have you thought about applying set BKB on grenades so camping for KO's is not feasible, but it alternatively would allow combos from exploded grenades?

 

[I R MarF]

That's pretty sound in theory to convert his playstyle to meet an offensive based game.

Have you thought about applying set BKB on grenades so camping for KO's is not feasible, but it alternatively would allow combos from exploded grenades?

Hmm, Idk. The way I picture what you are saying is Snake's current grenades just with a fixed knockback that has an upward trajectory. That means that you can still camp, but now you have a follow up that you can simply memorize its execution and will work indefinitely? Correct me if I'm wrong but this doesn't seem to solve anything. The only other moves I can think of that have a fixed knockback are Fox's shine and Falco's lasers and they don't have an upward trajectory.

Stun grenades are the best option because they could briefly stun their victim and have minimal trajectory, just like Falco's lasers. That way, you are forced to move forward and engage in battle so it doesn't go to waste. If there is an upward trajectory they pretty much have the same purpose as they did in vbrawl... just broken.

And like I said before, the grenades should operate like Link's bombs just with the stun effect... and there should also be a cooldown period before you can toss another grenade, preventing any abuse like ROB's laser.

I also apologize if I misinterpreted what you were trying to suggest and I meant no offense.

 

[xDD-Master]

That would suck T_T

Leave Snake the way he was (Or at least very similiar).
I really dont see the problem about having a (slightly) campy Snake.
Like someone already mentioned that was the was Snake was designed.
Maybe just limit his grenades to 1 per time? I could see this working very well.
It would make his camping less effective and also harder to do.


The same thing should apply to Diddy's bananas btw., just 1 per time.
It would be like ROBs gyro where you also can only have 1 at the same time.
As for Peach, Link & Tink on the other hand, I dont think there should be a limit...