Roster Prediction Discussion Thread

[Richard 89]

In all seriousness, he did cause a lot of trouble on the boards, in particular this thread. If you were here, you would understand.

But talking about this member leaves a bad taste in my mouth and I am drinking some pretty good coffee at the moment. Let's change topics shall we? It's my fault for starting this rabbit trail; talking about darkness and evilness and things of that nature.

Is this user's name Hiemie?

 

[Rebellious Treecko]

Let's not start with the Tabuu arguments again.

not here at least. please?

First TheDivineDeity, and now this?
What subject will become tabuu next?

----

 

[TheLastJinjo]

He wasn't referring to the actual abilities, but the role they play in their respective games.

Well, that's a strange complaint. I guess Kirby is essentially Yoshi by his logic.

Tabuu appears out of nowhere and is rather underwhelming to the SSE when you consider what his role could have been.

Understandable. But it's not like Master Hand came from anything and I don't see hatred for him. Not mention he's a freaking hand.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Well, that's a strange complaint. I guess Kirby is essentially Yoshi by his logic.

Doesn't role refer to in terms of storyline, like protagonists and antagonists? I think he meant Tabuu could have been a much better antagonist.

Although that would make Kirby the same as Yoshi in that they're both friendly protagonists.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Well, that's a strange complaint.


Understandable. But it's not like Master Hand came from anything and I don't see hatred for him. Not mention he's a freaking hand.

Master Hand has been here since the first Smash. He may have come from nowhere in the first game, but there was no story to speak of whatsoever. Where Tabuu fails is the fact that, throughout the SSE, the bad guy is seemingly the Ancient Minister, then you find out that he was following Ganondorf's orders, and then you find out Ganondorf was following Master Hand's orders, and then you find out that Master Hand was being controlled by some dude that no one has ever heard of before.

You don't just throw in some bad guy at the end without at least hinting towards it, he literally came out of nowhere and had no incentive and that's just bad writing.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Although that would make Kirby the same as Yoshi in that they're both friendly protagonists.

That are cute and on a quest to save their food.

 

[PLATINUM7]

Master Hand has been here since the first Smash. He may have come from nowhere in the first game, but there was no story to speak of whatsoever. Where Tabuu fails is the fact that, throughout the SSE, the bad guy is seemingly the Ancient Minister, then you find out that he was following Ganondorf's orders, and then you find out Ganondorf was following Master Hand's orders, and then you find out that Master Hand was being controlled by some dude that no one has ever heard of before.

You don't just throw in some bad guy at the end without at least hinting towards it, he literally came out of nowhere and had no incentive and that's just bad writing.

Final Fantasy called, they want their unexpected final boss back.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

That are cute and on a quest to save their food.

And devour anything they don't consider an endearing friend to them.
Sometimes eating them anyway.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

What if he announces the Masterpieces are back and, in particular, he announces that Smash 64 will be included as a masterpiece?

My god....

But in all honestly, I do expect him to announce the Anniversary but I am not holding onto anything special. At most, maybe a release date of some sort.

All I can say is that it would be quite disturbing if Japan gets the game much earlier than the other regions. But seeing as Brawl was released in Japan over a month before North America, and Europe got hit the hardest with its Brawl release date, I fear that much like with Brawl, Japan will get all the Smash 4 glory before any North Americans or Europeans get that opportunity.

 

[NickerBocker]

Understandable. But it's not like Master Hand came from anything and I don't see hatred for him. Not mention he's a freaking hand.

Actually, Master Hand is supposed to be the person playing with the Nintendo character dolls in Smash 64 (more or less, your hand actually.) It's essentially toys fighting back, showing how mighty they can be when they put their minds to it. They can overcome the forces that imagined them in the first place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz79J_3TlBM

 

[JamesDNaux]

Final Fantasy called, they want their unexpected final boss back.

I said it was bad writing, using Final Fantasy as an example just supports my case. I jest.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Master Hand has been here since the first Smash. He may have come from nowhere in the first game, but there was no story to speak of whatsoever. Where Tabuu fails is the fact that, throughout the SSE, the bad guy is seemingly the Ancient Minister, then you find out that he was following Ganondorf's orders, and then you find out Ganondorf was following Master Hand's orders, and then you find out that Master Hand was being controlled by some dude that no one has ever heard of before.

You don't just throw in some bad guy at the end without at least hinting towards it, he literally came out of nowhere and had no incentive and that's just bad writing.

Isnt' the explantation for it in the manual/trophy descriptions? Like most classic games. I had no idea what was going on in Sonic 3 & Knuckles until I read the official manual.

Nonetheless that seems like a weird reason to hate a video game character whilst simultaneously loving several game characters without backstories...in a game that arguably was not suppose to have an understandable storyline.

Actually, Master Hand is supposed to be the person playing with the Nintendo character dolls in Smash 64 (more or less, your hand actually.) It's essentially toys fighting back, showing how mighty they can be when they put their minds to it. They can overcome the forces that imagined them in the first place.

And Tabuu is the man behind all the evil happening in SSE and is controlling Master Hand in it.

Yet neither are fully explained. Actually Tabuu is explained more than Master Hand. Master Hand's role in the original is just what is inferred by everybody. Unless of course it's in the manual.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

First TheDivineDeity and now this?


----

You know Venus is gonna kill you if he ses this, right?

 

[NickerBocker]

And Tabuu is the man behind all the evil happening in SSE and is controlling Master Hand in it.

Yet neither are fully explained. Actually Tabuu is explained more than Master Hand. Master Hand's role in the original is just what is inferred by everybody. Unless of course it's in the manual.

I don't think Master Hand is actually explained in the manual, but it's pretty clear what's happening in the introduction. He's creating a hypothetical situation where Nintendo characters fight eachother, in the vein of "Who would win in a fight, Mario or Link, Kirby or DK," etc. etc. It being strange didn't really matter, as it was the first installment in the series, so really the sky was the limits. In Tabuu's case, he was introduced as a villain, controlling everything that happened through the control of Master Hand. We don't know if that's what has happened since the beginning, or if it came into play when Subspace was introduced and Tabuu took control of him (the game player.)

Then again, this is Smash, nothing is canon, so were probably thinking about it too much :D

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Well, that's a strange complaint. I guess Kirby is essentially Yoshi by his logic. .

Here's the thing. We're talking about the execution of the main antagonist of a game. Both are the "big bad" of the game, yet don't appear until the very end.

The difference with Tabuu, is that there was no room to create background info to make him remotely interesting. He just shows up and is like, "Sup *******? I'm a blue and naked Vin Diesel!" Then you defeat him and he dies, never to be seen again.

The reason a lot of people like Master Hand is that he's been there from the beginning, and has been given a symbolic value. He is essentially the creator of the trophy or Smash world. Plus I'm sure the nostalgia finds its way in, what with all the spinny finger attacks and instant deaths.

I can see the reasoning where we're looking at representing Smash, as it truthfully is one of Nintendo's biggest series. So in that context I agree. But, in my own opinion, I think Smash should just stick with playable characters from Nintendo's series, as that's what the series is all about.

One other thing I'd like to cover is how Yoshi and Kirby are the same. While the purpose of their games are similar, what they do and their abilities are very different.

Either way, people can like Master Hand without liking Tabuu. I'm indifferent, but I wouldn't want him in Smash Bros unless we were literally scraping the bottom of a barrel of character options.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Isnt' the explantation for it in the manual/trophy descriptions? Like most classic games. I had no idea what was going on in Sonic 3 & Knuckles until I read the official manual.

Nonetheless that seems like a weird reason to hate a video game character whilst simultaneously loving several game characters without backstories...in a game that arguably was not suppose to have an understandable storyline.

You missed the point entirely and used a bad example. I've also already told you that I don't hate Tabuu.

In Sonic, despite the lack of a clear story, you can clearly tell that Eggman is the bad guy, he's there from the beginning and antagonizes Sonic. Tabuu is pretty much "hey guys, we couldn't think of a good way to end this story, so here's some generic doomsday villain that had nothing to do with everything that just happened." Now I'm not saying Tabuu is bad, the way he was implemented was bad. They didn't hint towards him at all, you go through the game with no knowledge of him at all and then it's just "here he is!" A surprise isn't bad, that one guy you never expected to be the bad guy at the end can usually be done right, but that's just it, some guy you never expected, as in some guy you've seen before but it's surprising to see him there. There needs to be a build up, once you get to him you have no reason to fight him besides "here's the bad guy, kill him." If they had done Tabuu right, it would have been "oh ****, I wasn't expecting him at all!" instead of "wait what, who's this and where did he come from?"

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Eh, maybe it was executed poorly in Brawl, but I like the concept of the character: Tabuu. But, I never really considered him until I started considering a Smash Original character months ago.

Once it occured to me, Tabuu contributes a lot. Surprise character, Unique Move Set, Representative of Smash Series itself. Again, something which I think has a higher chance this time around.

That and if Sakurai is bringing him back just like Crazy Hand and Giga Bowser, playable role would fit him best given the above reasons combined with the lack of SSE.

 

[PLATINUM7]

You missed the point entirely and used a bad example. I've also already told you that I don't hate Tabuu.

In Sonic, despite the lack of a clear story, you can clearly tell that Eggman is the bad guy, he's there from the beginning and antagonizes Sonic. Tabuu is pretty much "hey guys, we couldn't think of a good way to end this story, so here's some generic doomsday villain that had nothing to do with everything that just happened." Now I'm not saying Tabuu is bad, the way he was implemented was bad. They didn't hint towards him at all, you go through the game with no knowledge of him at all and then it's just "here he is!" A surprise isn't bad, that one guy you never expected to be the bad guy at the end can usually be done right, but that's just it, some guy you never expected, as in some guy you've seen before but it's surprising to see him there. There needs to be a build up, once you get to him you have no reason to fight him besides "here's the bad guy, kill him." If they had done Tabuu right, it would have been "oh ****, I wasn't expecting him at all!" instead of "wait what, who's this and where did he come from?"

Pretty much sums up quite a few Final Fantasy games right there.
Anyway what happened Saturn to trying direct all Tabuu talk to the Tabuu thread. Did he just give up?

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Does anyone find an appeal in playing as characters that are usually NPC/Bosses? Like being able to play as T.T. and Wizpig in Diddy Kong Racing or Metal Sonic in Sonic 4 or Lakitu in Mario Kart 7

I'm pretty sure some other games have done that. I know Snowboard Kids 2 did it with Dog and Damien.

Does anybody else know games that have done that?

 

[NickerBocker]

Eh, maybe it was executed poorly in Brawl, but I like the concept of the character: Tabuu. But, I never really considered him until I started considering a Smash Original character months ago.

Once it occured to me, Tabuu contributes a lot. Surprise character, Unique Move Set, Representative of Smash Series itself. Again, something which I think has a higher chance this time around.

That and if Sakurai is bringing him back just like Crazy Hand and Giga Bowser, playable role would fit him best given the above reasons combined with the lack of SSE.

It would be interesting to see him as playable.

If Boss' return for this game, however, I would miss having him as a boss i must say. His was pretty interesting and challenging

 

[PLATINUM7]

Does anyone find an appeal in playing as characters that are usually NPC/Bosses? Like being able to play as T.T. and Wizpig in Diddy Kong Racing or Metal Sonic in Sonic 4 or Lakitu in Mario Kart 7

I'm pretty sure some other games have done that. I know Snowboard Kids 2 did it with Dog and Damien.

Does anybody else know games that have done that?

Pokemon

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Pokemon

???

 

[Pacack]

Does anyone find an appeal in playing as characters that are usually NPC/Bosses? Like being able to play as T.T. and Wizpig in Diddy Kong Racing or Metal Sonic in Sonic 4 or Lakitu in Mario Kart 7

I'm pretty sure some other games have done that. I know Snowboard Kids 2 did it with Dog and Damien.

Does anybody else know games that have done that?

Pac-Man World Rally did it with Toc-Man, Spooky, and Erwin, but I'm not thinking of any other obvious ones.

 

[UltimateWario]

You missed the point entirely and used a bad example. I've also already told you that I don't hate Tabuu.

In Sonic, despite the lack of a clear story, you can clearly tell that Eggman is the bad guy, he's there from the beginning and antagonizes Sonic. Tabuu is pretty much "hey guys, we couldn't think of a good way to end this story, so here's some generic doomsday villain that had nothing to do with everything that just happened." Now I'm not saying Tabuu is bad, the way he was implemented was bad. They didn't hint towards him at all, you go through the game with no knowledge of him at all and then it's just "here he is!" A surprise isn't bad, that one guy you never expected to be the bad guy at the end can usually be done right, but that's just it, some guy you never expected, as in some guy you've seen before but it's surprising to see him there. There needs to be a build up, once you get to him you have no reason to fight him besides "here's the bad guy, kill him." If they had done Tabuu right, it would have been "oh ****, I wasn't expecting him at all!" instead of "wait what, who's this and where did he come from?"

Sonic really isn't a good example of having solid villains, especially since the main villain was usurped for some random monster at the end of like six Sonic games in a row.

 

[SuperNintendoDisney]

I have always interpreted Tabuu as some sort of virus that infected the hypothetical Super Smash Bros. world created by Master Hand. He was handily defeated by the Nintendo All-Stars and I don't expect him to return in future installments

 

[PLATINUM7]

???

You can choose you character's gender and essentially play through as your rival. Some legendaries are practically bosses and you can catch them and command them.
You can recruit bosses and certain npcs in the Mystery Dungeon games,

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Sonic really isn't a good example of having solid villains, especially since the main villain was usurped for some random monster at the end of like six Sonic games in a row.

Dr, Robotnick is the main villain

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Does anyone find an appeal in playing as characters that are usually NPC/Bosses? Like being able to play as T.T. and Wizpig in Diddy Kong Racing or Metal Sonic in Sonic 4 or Lakitu in Mario Kart 7

I'm pretty sure some other games have done that. I know Snowboard Kids 2 did it with Dog and Damien.

Does anybody else know games that have done that?

I think a lot of people are against that in regards to Smash because of the characters they DO want. Not that Tabuu would necessarily be in competition with them. Really, I think Tabuu gets in as a character that nobody saw coming, and nothing else.

There are several characters that I think should get in before Tabuu.

As far as games with playable bosses, Mario Party has done it with Bowser in the extra rooms...but other than that I'm not all that sure. I mean I guess Smash already does that for Ganondorf as well.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

You can choose you character's gender and essentially play through as your rival. Some legendaries are practically bosses and you can catch them and command them.
You can recruit bosses and certain npcs in the Mystery Dungeon games,

I mean like characters you expect you wouldn't be able to play as.'

I think a lot of people are against that in regards to Smash because of the characters they DO want.

Well that's basically the norm.

 

[UltimateWario]

Dr, Robotnick is the main villain

You mean in Sonic Adventure, where he gets usurped by Chaos, Sonic Adventure 2, where he gets usurped by the BioLizard, Sonic Heroes, where he gets usurped by Metal Sonic, Sonic '06, where he gets usurped by Mephiles/Iblis/Solaris (although they were all present throughout the game, proper), Sonic Unleashed, where he gets usurped by Dark Gaia, Sonic Advance 3, where he's usurped by Gemerl, Sonic Battle, where he's usurped by Emerl, Sonic Colors DS, where he's usurped by the Mother Wisp...

The list goes on and on. Sonic was extremely bad about having the same (awful) plot twist at the end for a LOOOOONG time.

Also, it's Robotnik. Or really, it's Eggman, since "nobody calls him that anymore".

 

[PLATINUM7]

I mean like characters you expect you wouldn't be able to play as.'


Well that's basically the norm.

Kung-Fu Chaos lets you play as the Director

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Kung-Fu Chaos lets you play as the Director

OMG! ANNOUNCER CONFIRMED FOR SMASH!

 

[JamesDNaux]

Sonic really isn't a good example of having solid villains, especially since the main villain was usurped for some random monster at the end of like six Sonic games in a row.

I used Sonic because he brought up Sonic 3, which is why I told him he used a bad example.

You mean in Sonic Adventure, where he gets usurped by Chaos

This is a bad example in itself since you know that Chaos is there from the beginning, which was my point in the first place.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

You mean in Sonic Adventure, where he gets usurped by Chaos, Sonic Adventure 2, where he gets usurped by the BioLizard, Sonic Heroes, where he gets usurped by Metal Sonic, Sonic '06, where he gets usurped by Mephiles/Iblis/Solaris (although they were all present throughout the game, proper), Sonic Unleashed, where he gets usurped by Dark Gaia, Sonic Advance 3, where he's usurped by Gemerl, Sonic Battle, where he's usurped by Emerl, Sonic Colors DS, where he's usurped by the Mother Wisp...

The list goes on and on. Sonic was extremely bad about having the same (awful) plot twist at the end for a LOOOOONG time.

Also, it's Robotnik. Or really, it's Eggman, since "nobody calls him that anymore".

Except the release of those monsters was all CAUSED by Dr. Robotnick wanting to gain power

 

[UltimateWario]

I used Sonic because he brought up Sonic 3, which is why I told him he used a bad example.

Right, sorry, mate.

Except the release of those monsters was all CAUSED by Dr. Robotnick wanting to gain power

...that changes nothing. They still went "SURPRISE, the final boss is actually THIS GUY" at then end of all of them. It doesn't matter how they came into the plot, it's just the fact that they always betrayed Eggman at the last second and took over as the final boss. So instead of beating on the guy who actually caused you trouble the entire game, you just get to fight some generic godmonster who's guilty of nothing more than being woken up by a dude with a moustache. One of the psychological points of having bosses (or rather, final bosses) is so that you can "punish" the person who's been causing you trouble the entire game.

Replacing them at the last second with some Eldritch abomination is not only dissatisfying, it gets boring after the first time.

 

[shrooby]

Does anyone find an appeal in playing as characters that are usually NPC/Bosses? Like being able to play as T.T. and Wizpig in Diddy Kong Racing or Metal Sonic in Sonic 4 or Lakitu in Mario Kart 7

I'm pretty sure some other games have done that. I know Snowboard Kids 2 did it with Dog and Damien.

Does anybody else know games that have done that?

Both Mario Baseballs allow you to play as a (Para)Goomba.
Somehow...holding the bat/glove...

 

[deebeethedeity]

i love when bosses become playable. Ganondorf is a great example.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Right, sorry, mate.



...that changes nothing. They still went "SURPRISE, the final boss is actually THIS GUY" at then end of all of them. It doesn't matter how they came into the plot, it's just the fact that they always betrayed Eggman at the last second and took over as the final boss. So instead of beating on the guy who actually caused you trouble the entire game, you just get to fight some generic godmonster who's guilty of nothing more than being woken up by a dude with a moustache. One of the psychological points of having bosses (or rather, final bosses) is so that you can "punish" the person who's been causing you trouble the entire game.

Replacing them at the last second with some Eldritch abomination is not only dissatisfying, it gets boring after the first time.

Since when does the final boss = the villain of the story

 

[UltimateWario]

Since when does the final boss = the villain of the story

When game design was good.

I want to kick the guy's ass who's been making me go through all this **** the entire game, not some Giant Space Flea from Nowhere that pops in at the last second and goes "ACUALY IS FINAL BOSS". I don't give a **** about the giant space flea, I want to beat up the guy that caused all this nonsense.

EDIT: I hate auto-censoring. It makes my statements look twice as vulgar as they actually are.

 

[PLATINUM7]

When game design was good.

I want to kick the guy's *** who's been making me go through all this **** the entire game, not some Giant Space Flea from Nowhere that pops in at the last second and goes "ACUALY IS FINAL BOSS". I don't give a **** about the giant space flea, I want to beat up the guy that caused all this nonsense.

Even if that giant space flea is the one truly behind everything?