Sakurai and his own Kirby bias

[Captain Shades]

As Iko MattOrr said, we need to admit that we just expect Dee to be in Smash, not necessarily want him. He really has no memorable qualities other than HAL pushing him.

Wow..This is so incredibly wrong. People expect popular characters based on K Rool’s inclusion, so they think Bandana Dee will get in. It is almost as though people really like the character.

No, BD is a popular character for his own merits, being one of the first characters to posses a spear and having an underdog story that many sympathize with. He has been given tons of character over the past decade of his existence and an arc as he goes from a cowardly Dedede servant to a more confident and capable fighter while keeping loyalties to his King, Kirby, and Meta Knight, though he still retains some fears such as Warp Stars. Plus what constitutes as a memorable moment? I can’t really recall a ground breaking thing anyone but transforming villains do in the series. At least BD had a moment where he attempted to be brave and fight Kirby for King Dedede even though Dedede spared him.

 

[Plumstar]

As Iko MattOrr said, we need to admit that we just expect Dee to be in Smash, not necessarily want him. He really has no memorable qualities other than HAL pushing him.

Have you ever heard of the Apple Juice song? It's implied that Bandana Dee is the one who sings it and shows more of his personality that you can't find in the games. He wants to be loved and get stronger just as much as Kirby, so he works hard to achieve that status (very relatable). It also reflects how he evolved from a mook to a main character in the series. He represents Modern Kirby as well since he appeared in almost all of them with playable roles, so if there was any character to represent it first, it would be Bandee 100%. That's just some of the reasons why I love him, plus he's very cute.
Simplicity isn't always a bad thing.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

As Iko MattOrr said, we need to admit that we just expect Dee to be in Smash, not necessarily want him. He really has no memorable qualities other than HAL pushing him.

The meaning of my comment was slighty different to be honest.
The post above suggested that we should all focus on one character so that our voice can be heared.
Since that specific character he mentioned is someone I don't like, I just can't join this "movement", and I think that anyone who has different tastes and preferences should do the same and support the characters they prefer instead.

I know that there are people who prefer Marx, Gooey, Magolor, Susie, the 3 mage sisters, etc. Those people shouldn't "focus on Bandana Dee" only because the community has decided that everyone should; that's just wrong.
There are people who genuinely prefer Bandana Dee, then it's ok for them to support that character, as long as they aren't forcing themselves to.

The only thing the community agrees on, is that Kirby needs more representation from games that are not represented in Smash yet, and that's not limited to newcomers, it's a problem in the stage and assist trophy selection too.

I have my stance on why I dislike Bandana Dee, but I wasn't refering to that in my post.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I think it's pretty fair honestly. If you don't count Star Allies(where EVERYONE comes back), very few Kirby characters are recurring outside of the three that are playable characters.

And pretty much the entire series is covered by Spirits.

That said, there are definitely more prominent boss characters in the series than Marx.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

As Iko MattOrr said, we need to admit that we just expect Dee to be in Smash, not necessarily want him. He really has no memorable qualities other than HAL pushing him.

You state that like it's a fact. If you don't think BDee is memorable, fine. But plenty of others do.
I find him memorable because:

• Him being fun to play as in RtDL
• Him singing the Apple Juice Song
• Actually having dialogue
• Being able to unlock him right away in Star Allies
• Being the first Waddle Dee to have a major role in a Kirby game (and not being a generic enemy)

Your idea that HAL pushing him is his only good quality only applies to you, since plenty of other people are capable of appreciating his great character design and other good aspects.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

I think it's pretty fair honestly. If you don't count Star Allies(where EVERYONE comes back), very few Kirby characters are recurring outside of the three that are playable characters.

And pretty much the entire series is covered by Spirits.

That said, there are definitely more prominent boss characters in the series than Marx.

Well, that's the problem, isn't it? Star Allies set the pavement for a new Kirby fighter, and Sakurai disregarded the path for his own vacation.

To be frank, it's not exactly the fighters that are the problem, it's everything else. I want another fighter, but I'd be fine with what we have if everything else was stable. But that's not the case.

I won't repeat what I said earlier, so for clarification, read Post #47.

As an addendum to that, HAL sometimes has the respect to put Smash references into their games, like using Meta Knight's old Final Smash or Dedede's Gordo toss; but Sakurai won't do the same. This is the only series that seems to have one way representation in the wrong direction, and it comes off as extremely... petty! I can tell Sakurai has yet to budge, and if the DLC ends with nothing changed, he needs to stay far away from touching Kirby content ever again.

 

[Opossum]

Well, that's the problem, isn't it? Star Allies set the pavement for a new Kirby fighter, and Sakurai disregarded the path for his own vacation.

To be frank, it's not exactly the fighters that are the problem, it's everything else. I want another fighter, but I'd be fine with what we have if everything else was stable. But that's not the case.

I won't repeat what I said earlier, so for clarification, read Post #47.

As an addendum to that, HAL sometimes has the respect to put Smash references into their games, like using Meta Knight's old Final Smash or Dedede's Gordo toss; but Sakurai won't do the same. This is the only series that seems to have one way representation in the wrong direction, and it comes off as extremely... petty! I can tell Sakurai has yet to budge, and if the DLC ends with nothing changed, he needs to stay far away from touching Kirby content ever again.

Star Allies came out far too late to meaningfully affect the development of Ultimate.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Here's how it feels:

(I did not make this btw)

 

[Arthur97]

Can you really call anything from Earthbound/Mother as recent?

 

[ThyCheshireCat]

Wanna know a fun fact... Sakurai Bias doesn't even stop Bandanna Dee... Sakurai made him!
If anything the only major character who isn't Sakurai made is Magolor.
Kirby, MK, Marx, Dedede, and Ban Dee are all Sakurai Characters.
It's not Sakurai Bias stopping them from getting in but I think I have an idea of what is
Personally, I think Sakurai has some form of Anti-Bias, not as in he hates the series but because he wants to focus on adding characters from other series not his own.
For example, before Melee, King Dedede was the fourth most requested character in the 'If there was a Smash 2 Poll' yet Sakurai refused to add them because he didn't want to focus on the Kirby series... at the time he'd rather bump up the big series of Mario, TLoZ and Pokemon as well as show off retro characters.
Also the absence of a playable Bandanna Dee despite him being on par with Ridley and K. Rool in popularity kinda points towards a similar ordeal.
The only game Sakurai has a bias to is Air Ride... all the Super Star content are literally the most iconic parts and even someone who only worked on modern Kirby games would have included them, the most iconic rendition of the first level, the awesome ass warship commanded by the masked badass Meta Knight, and also arguably the most iconic and popular boss in the entire series! (Then there's the GCO which was made to replace the Epic Yarn stage due to Woolly World coming.)

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

As an addendum to that, HAL sometimes has the respect to put Smash references into their games, like using Meta Knight's old Final Smash or Dedede's Gordo toss; but Sakurai won't do the same.

So... you are saying that Sakurai doesn't put Kirby references in Smash? Have you been playing Smash all these years?

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Kirby_(universe)

The characters? Their movesets? The enemies? The stages? The items? The music? What are those then?

This is the only series that seems to have one way representation in the wrong direction, and it comes off as extremely... petty! I can tell Sakurai has yet to budge, and if the DLC ends with nothing changed, he needs to stay far away from touching Kirby content ever again.

Kirby is the only series that references Smash this much, and given the previous comment, I don't get what you mean with one way representation. This hairsplitting is what actually comes off as petty.

And Sakurai has stayed away from Kirby games since 2003.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Can you really call anything from Earthbound/Mother as recent?

Like I said, I didn't make it, but there isn't much to pull from Earthbound/Mother anyway. Kirby however, had a lot to pull from, and yet we still got old content.

Wanna know a fun fact... Sakurai Bias doesn't even stop Bandanna Dee... Sakurai made him!

Yes, Sakurai made him, but his role in Super Star was pretty minor. He didn't become a major character until SSU a decade ago, after Sakurai left the series.

 

[ThyCheshireCat]

Yes, Sakurai made him, but his role in Super Star was pretty minor. He didn't become a major character until SSU a decade ago, after Sakurai left the series.

Well, Sakurai does at least care about SSU (and other modern games but to biasers, there's only evidence for SSU cus apparently spirits and music don't count), Masked Dedede and the Galacta Knight Skin shows he'll at least pull content from SSU so yeah...

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

So... you are saying that Sakurai doesn't put Kirby references in Smash? Have you been playing Smash all these years?

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Kirby_(universe)

The characters? Their movesets? The enemies? The stages? The items? The music? What are those then?



Kirby is the only series that references Smash this much, and given the previous comment, I don't get what you mean with one way representation. This hairsplitting is what actually comes off as petty.

You... didn't read the other post, did you? I went more into detail there.

But to clarify, I did not say there is nothing from Kirby, and if I did, I should clarify. Comparatively speaking there's way more Sakurai content than otherwise.

Spoiler: On the page you linked, the trivia specifically says...

Every Kirby stage that has appeared in the series so far has been based on Kirby games that were directed by Masahiro Sakurai before he left HAL Laboratory.

• Every Kirby item seems to follow this trend as well, unless one counts those that appear frequently in the series, such as the Maxim Tomato.
• Furthermore, the only Kirby universe elements in Smash Bros. so far (during gameplay) that aren't from a Sakurai-directed Kirby game are the Ultra Sword, Kirby's Final Smash in SSB4 and Ultimate, and Dede-Rush, King Dedede's Final Smash from Ultimate in which he turns into Masked Dedede.

Yes, there are stickers, spirits, and music, but for the most part it's ripped straight from the artwork and soundtrack of the original games. Smash 4 only gave us one remix and four trophies outside of a Sakurai game, and that also counts the 3DS version. Ultimate didn't even add any remixes in this regard.

And has Sakurai has stayed away from Kirby games since 2003.

Indeed. Which is why I find it frustrating that Kirby's Smash content has not caught up to what he is today. I adore Kirby, but Super Star, Adventure and Dream Land are all at LEAST 22 years old. Smash makes it seem like Super Star was the last mainline game and everything else is a spin-off.

That doesn't seem like... hairsplitting to me.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Well, Sakurai does at least care about SSU (and other modern games but to biasers, there's only evidence for SSU cus apparently spirits and music don't count), Masked Dedede and the Galacta Knight Skin shows he'll at least pull content from SSU so yeah...

Obviously that doesn't make up for the serious lack of content from modern Kirby games compared to the older ones.

 

[ThyCheshireCat]

Obviously that doesn't make up for the serious lack of content from modern Kirby games compared to the older ones.

I guess but at least it's not the Dark Matter Trilogy which has nothing but spirits and songs.

 

[Sabertooth]

Bandana Dee would be a cool boss character.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I mean...

Just add Bandana Dee are I'll call it a day. Really all I need.

 

[Quillion]

Honestly, I don't get why Bandana Dee deserves to be Kirby's fourth main character even outside of Smash. Not that he's a totally bad choice, but if HAL were pushing anyone else, Dee wouldn't even be considered the way even Marx was.

 

[Captain Shades]

Honestly, I don't get why Bandana Dee deserves to be Kirby's fourth main character even outside of Smash. Not that he's a totally bad choice, but if HAL were pushing anyone else, Dee wouldn't even be considered the way even Marx was.

Why does he need to be worthy?

Honestly, I feel Kirby is most comparable to Fire Emblem in this regard (sorry Mogisthelioma ). Fire Emblem has many popular characters that are beloved from fans, including Hector and Ephriam. FE fans really wanted them in Smash, but got the Awakening trio instead. The reason is because Awakening is important, it marked a return and really ‘Awakening’ in the popularity of FE, which cannot be understated. Kirby is sort of the same way, being stuck in franchise limbo with tons of spin-offs and the occasional main line title for a full decade. Both FE and Kirby experienced a decade of what seemed like uncertainty for franchise direction, until their big title came. In the same way Awakening saved FE, I believe Super Star Ultra and Return To DreamLand can be attributed to the revival of Kirby. Due to the success of these Rebirth titles, that means that their characters became mascots, with Lucina and Chrom being as if not more prominent than Marth, and Bandana Dee becoming the new mainstay Kirby character. The characters are also comparable as being very welcoming to new players, being somewhat generic archetypes to help players adjust into the world as Chrom is very much an Ike and Marth representative and BD is a representative of the most crucial type of enemy in Kirby. To say the least, these titles and characters ushered in a new generation of fans, which puts them higher than even some fan favorites as these are the characters that the children of today have come to love and experience, meaning they’ll have a more long term appeal down the road as they stay main characters to their franchise.

 

[Quillion]

Why does he need to be worthy?

Honestly, I feel Kirby is most comparable to Fire Emblem in this regard (sorry Mogisthelioma ). Fire Emblem has many popular characters that are beloved from fans, including Hector and Ephriam. FE fans really wanted them in Smash, but got the Awakening trio instead. The reason is because Awakening is important, it marked a return and really ‘Awakening’ in the popularity of FE, which cannot be understated. Kirby is sort of the same way, being stuck in franchise limbo with tons of spin-offs and the occasional main line title for a full decade. Both FE and Kirby experienced a decade of what seemed like uncertainty for franchise direction, until their big title came. In the same way Awakening saved FE, I believe Super Star Ultra and Return To DreamLand can be attributed to the revival of Kirby. Due to the success of these Rebirth titles, that means that their characters became mascots, with Lucina and Chrom being as if not more prominent than Marth, and Bandana Dee becoming the new mainstay Kirby character. The characters are also comparable as being very welcoming to new players, being somewhat generic archetypes to help players adjust into the world as Chrom is very much an Ike and Marth representative and BD is a representative of the most crucial type of enemy in Kirby. To say the least, these titles and characters ushered in a new generation of fans, which puts them higher than even some fan favorites as these are the characters that the children of today have come to love and experience, meaning they’ll have a more long term appeal down the road as they stay main characters to their franchise.

I get that. People see Dee as a rep for the Kirby Renaissance.

I just think that they should have maintained Adeleine or Gooey as the "fourth main character" instead of just a simple weapon wielder. It would have better rounded out the cast.

 

[Captain Shades]

I get that. People see Dee as a rep for the Kirby Renaissance.

I just think that they should have maintained Adeleine or Gooey as the "fourth main character" instead of just a simple weapon wielder. It would have better rounded out the cast.

I can’t really agree with that. The problem with them is that they were pre-established, already had character and powers, so the Kirby team really couldn’t do anything with them without running into problems with the now more vastly explored canon.

In a sense, BD fits more inline with Kirby than them as he is a basic character at the core. Him, Kirby, Meta Knight, and King Dedede are all flexible and can easily be put in any scenario. Notice how most Kirby lore revolves around everything outside of these 4, they just happen to be at the right place when everything goes down. BD also has a prestablished move set and abilities that rarely if ever change. I feel that this is why he is different from Adeline and Gooey.

Adeline couldn’t function as a playable character without bringing in Ribbon as obviously she cannot fly. This then creates a lore issue as why has Ribbon returned? In Star Allies they easily brushed it to the side with the wand explanation plus being DLC, but for a main stay character you really have to do some explaining. Gooey is also problematic as he is very much tied with Dark Matter, literally being Dark Matter.

Ultimately, BD was a good option. He is a flexible character that the new team can build up as their own over time. He also has an iconic design so he is by no means out of place when next to Kirby, which may also be an issue with bringing in others. (Adeline specifically as her human design is a bit more-stand outish next to the circular trio) I think BD is just a character we have to get used to as the Kirby team certainly views him as their baby, and a character that they “created” and built up without Sakurai, and a character that allows them to take the series in a new direction, distancing it from the previous Dark Matter Trilogy and other weird titles.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

To be honest at this point any fighter would be fine. Although personally I have big dreams for Kirby in Smash, if Sakurai could at least recognize the series after 10+ long years that would be great.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

I can’t really agree with that. The problem with them is that they were pre-established, already had character and powers, so the Kirby team really couldn’t do anything with them without running into problems with the now more vastly explored canon.

In a sense, BD fits more inline with Kirby than them as he is a basic character at the core. Him, Kirby, Meta Knight, and King Dedede are all flexible and can easily be put in any scenario. Notice how most Kirby lore revolves around everything outside of these 4, they just happen to be at the right place when everything goes down. BD also has a prestablished move set and abilities that rarely if ever change. I feel that this is why he is different from Adeline and Gooey.

Adeline couldn’t function as a playable character without bringing in Ribbon as obviously she cannot fly. This then creates a lore issue as why has Ribbon returned? In Star Allies they easily brushed it to the side with the wand explanation plus being DLC, but for a main stay character you really have to do some explaining. Gooey is also problematic as he is very much tied with Dark Matter, literally being Dark Matter.

Ultimately, BD was a good option. He is a flexible character that the new team can build up as their own over time. He also has an iconic design so he is by no means out of place when next to Kirby, which may also be an issue with bringing in others. (Adeline specifically as her human design is a bit more-stand outish next to the circular trio) I think BD is just a character we have to get used to as the Kirby team certainly views him as their baby, and a character that they “created” and built up without Sakurai, and a character that allows them to take the series in a new direction, distancing it from the previous Dark Matter Trilogy and other weird titles.

Eh, I don't find all this true.

Yes, Bandana Dee is a basic character, and that's a bit of an issue. As a former fan of his, part of the reason I lost interest in him was because he never evolved past his Return to Dreamland phase. He could be a great mediator in-between Kirby and Dedede's rivalry, but he's not, he's a Kirby companion and little more. Concurrently, for years I've been disgruntled by modern Kirby's cast choices because they've avoided using certain characters at fitting intervals. There's no true excuse for Adeleine's absence in Triple Deluxe and Robobot, or Gooey's in Rainbow Curse and Battle Royale. In both cases, the role they could've easily served was used by Bandana Dee.

Whether or not Bandana Dee is truly flexible as a character is... debatable, but let's assume he is. Okay, but are you sure Adeleine and Gooey can't be? Both have never truly been given backstory despite implications, and both can endure tough climates and years of irrelevancy. Adeleine's human design honestly makes her an interesting contrast to the main trio, and Gooey's goofy nature clashes with his dark source... in a good way.

I get that Bandana Dee represents the Waddle Dees and therefore has dominance in staying power, but why should there only be four important characters? Kirby's cast is super varied and could make for some wonderful interactions, as Star Allies has taught me. It feels like a waste to have a limited cast be the standard. I don't like it when Mario does it, why would I like it here?

Then again, I adore 64 and have a deep love for its characters. I don't think distancing fandoms away from their source is ever a good idea.

Though I will say, it was quite rude to make Bandana Dee an enhanced spirit. He's still more than a minion, at the end of the day.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

Adeline couldn’t function as a playable character without bringing in Ribbon as obviously she cannot fly. This then creates a lore issue as why has Ribbon returned? In Star Allies they easily brushed it to the side with the wand explanation plus being DLC, but for a main stay character you really have to do some explaining. Gooey is also problematic as he is very much tied with Dark Matter, literally being Dark Matter.

This is not true, at all...
Adeleine doesn't need Ribbon at all. I mean, Adeleine & Ribbon as a duo are cool, they work well and mixing paint summoning with crystal magic is interesting (I wish they expanded a bit more on the crystal side in Star Allies). But at the end, Adeleine would be ok alone as well.
She can't fly? She could get that heavy multi-jump that many helpers have in Superstar (such as, for example, Bonkers, who can't fly as well). Everything else can be fixed by giving her new moves. Make her able to draw a rainbow path in the sky similar to how you do in Canvas/Rainbow Curse, for example.
There are no limits in what you could do with her moveset, she can materialize wathever the developers want to, due to her skills.
And even if Ribbon has to be her partner, there isn't any need of explanation for her to be there. They are friends, that's all what it matters.
What's the reason for Metaknight to stick around nowadays? He's just there, there is no need to explain why,

The same can be said about Gooey. He is a Dark Matter, but he is in no way connected to the Dark Matter species aside of the fact that he is one. Even in the Dark Matter trilogy, they never explored the fact that he's a Dark Matter other than saying it in the instruction book; you can play the games (KDL2 and KDL3) without being aware that he's a Dark Matter and you can still enjoy the whole experience... that's just a fanservice lore trivia.

 

[Quillion]

Ultimately, BD was a good option. He is a flexible character that the new team can build up as their own over time. He also has an iconic design so he is by no means out of place when next to Kirby, which may also be an issue with bringing in others. (Adeline specifically as her human design is a bit more-stand outish next to the circular trio) I think BD is just a character we have to get used to as the Kirby team certainly views him as their baby, and a character that they “created” and built up without Sakurai, and a character that allows them to take the series in a new direction, distancing it from the previous Dark Matter Trilogy and other weird titles.

That just makes Bandana Dee a Creator's Pet, though. Why do you fail to realize that overexposure is the reason why he's so divisive?

You may call him flexible; we call him bland and forgettable. He DOES NOT DESERVE to be Kirby's fourth main character when there are much more interesting choices that HAL tossed to the side.

 

[Captain Shades]

I may as well respond... section by section

Yes, Bandana Dee is a basic character, and that's a bit of an issue. As a former fan of his, part of the reason I lost interest in him was because he never evolved past his Return to Dreamland phase. He could be a great mediator in-between Kirby and Dedede's rivalry, but he's not, he's a Kirby companion and little more. Concurrently, for years I've been disgruntled by modern Kirby's cast choices because they've avoided using certain characters at fitting intervals. There's no true excuse for Adeleine's absence in Triple Deluxe and Robobot, or Gooey's in Rainbow Curse and Battle Royale. In both cases, the role they could've easily served was used by Bandana Dee.

He has evolved a bit since RTDL, mainly through spin-offs, given more character through his new ability to talk, more expressions, and relations with other characters. As for being a mediator, well I think that comes down to the series evolving rather than a fault of BD himself. King Dedede has gradually been made to be an ally to Kirby, which feels like a huge improvement to what could have been a stale Mario/Bowser type rivalry. Plus, he does act as a mediator as Battle Royal has him trying to work his way up to be the best to the King, while he still values his friendship and forms team ups with Kirby.

Honestly, I think there is a good excuse for absenses of previous characters, and it just comes down to starting over. Being completely honest, the Kirby team clearly fell apart with the absence of Sakurai, leading to a very rough decade at least. Kirby wasn’t doing well and was a series that kind of took more steps backwards than forwards. Now before I speak, yes 64 is a good game, but it clearly took steps backwards from Super Star, being a lot slower and copy abilities lost the full range move set established in Sakurai’s last title. Dream Land 3, 64, and onward all tried to be Super Star but lacked fundamental parts to make it happen, then with the later GC and Wii and DS era Kirby became a spin-off series. RTDL was Kirby’s Return to Super Star, it was meant to be basic to set the ground work for the next titles and get the series back on track. I think of RTDL as a reboot, which means that they don’t want previously established characters that aren’t main to take up the spot light as they have to set ground work before diving into everything.

This leads into your next point

Whether or not Bandana Dee is truly flexible as a character is... debatable, but let's assume he is. Okay, but are you sure Adeleine and Gooey can't be? Both have never truly been given backstory despite implications, and both can endure tough climates and years of irrelevancy. Adeleine's human design honestly makes her an interesting contrast to the main trio, and Gooey's goofy nature clashes with his dark source... in a good way.

This is not true, at all...
Adeleine doesn't need Ribbon at all. I mean, Adeleine & Ribbon as a duo are cool, they work well and mixing paint summoning with crystal magic is interesting (I wish they expanded a bit more on the crystal side in Star Allies). But at the end, Adeleine would be ok alone as well.
She can't fly? She could get that heavy multi-jump that many helpers have in Superstar (such as, for example, Bonkers, who can't fly as well). Everything else can be fixed by giving her new moves. Make her able to draw a rainbow path in the sky similar to how you do in Canvas/Rainbow Curse, for example.
There are no limits in what you could do with her moveset, she can materialize wathever the developers want to, due to her skills.
And even if Ribbon has to be her partner, there isn't any need of explanation for her to be there. They are friends, that's all what it matters.
What's the reason for Metaknight to stick around nowadays? He's just there, there is no need to explain why,

I put these two together as I feel I have a similar response.

The problem with Adeline and Gooey, along with others is that they are not entry characters. To compare it to the game this site is based on, let’s look at Smash fighters. If I were to hand my controller over to a new player, would I tell them to play as Kirby or Bayonetta? Adeline and Gooey are very different, a Bayonetta of sorts. Their powers are strange and unlike anything in the game, which is very apparent in Star Allies as they have huge attacks that aren’t comparable to anyone. BD on the other hand is a spear copy ability stand in, in the same way Meta Knight and King Dedede are pretty much just basic sword and hammer. He’s an easy to grasp character with little flair, and one that you can get the hang of right away or after using the Spear copy ability. In a sense, BD in all areas is flexible, an easy 4th character that fits the puzzle. His design is as basic as the original trio, he is given just as much backstory and goals as the trio, and he plays easily so anyone can easily grasp how to play a Kirby game, which has been the main goal of having the 4 playable characters.

Adeline, as said by Iko MattOrr , has too much. It creates a divide as a 4th character as she is widely different, or it creates a divide between fans. Either Adeline has too much uniqueness that makes her difficult for new players to fully grasp and creates a divide in play style compared to the trio, or she is toned down to the point where she has wasted potential. Now remember, Kirby RTDL was pretty much a revival of Kirby after a ten year hiatus, so many people playing the title were probably completely new to the franchise, so throwing a curveball like Adeline or Gooey that don’t match up with the rest of the game could turn people away. Star Allies avoided this by being a 4th installment and having her as DLC after the game dropped, so new players would get the hang of everything before playing around with wild characters such as Adeline, Marx, or Susie.

Another problem is the pre-establishment of these characters. Again, RTDL was a revival, the Kirby team was clearly going a new direction and they want freedom. When characters are as popular as Adeline, than you cannot have freedom. BD was the teams baby, their experimental character that caught on. He was a character to essentially be their mark on the franchise and they can work on him as they go as they have all freedom to do so. In Super Star Ultra, he was given a backstory, and in Battle Royal they fleshed out his character more showing fear to warp stars and the true extent of his loyalty. He is a character in progress, but he is the modern mark on a now up and coming big franchise, giving the new creators something to play around with without fan backlash.

To complete my ramblings, Quillion , BD is a character the fan base likes. He is not over exposed, or really pushed by HAL, but he is Kirby’s 4th member. You may call him a creator’s pet, but he isn’t. He is the new of the Kirby franchise, the thing to show that Kirby hasn’t completely devolved into New Super Mario Bros. only relying on Nostalgia and characters people know, otherwise all of the fan favorites would come back in every title and only get more and more stale.

Honestly he is and has been a welcome addition that HAL clearly cares for. He may not be the most interesting, but he was never meant to be. He was supposed to be a gateway to those characters, a character that teaches you the basics of the franchise. He is simply like a Chrom, generic but is iconic and eye catching from the start, leading new players into the world of FE with a general impression of what gameplay and the personality of a lord are like. These characters get people to place interest in a franchise, and sometimes, being the gateway to having a bigger fandom may be more important than being the most interesting of the bunch. BD is everything the Kirby franchise needed at the time, an iconic new blood that shakes up the dynamic of the trio without feeling too distant in characterization or design. Basic enough for anyone to grasp, and flexible enough to change as the team tries new things.

 

[Quillion]

A fourth main character who has a unique and strange ability would make the main cast more rounded than just three basic weapon wielders though.

Kirby is already our basic hero; do we really need another one?

 

[Captain Shades]

A fourth main character who has a unique and strange ability would make the main cast more rounded than just three basic weapon wielders though.

Kirby is already our basic hero; do we really need another one?

The problem is that it makes the cast uneven, which will create an imbalance. Take Nabbit from New Super Luigi Bros. U, he is very unique, but his abilities pretty much make him easy mode and broken beyond belief. It creates a less challenging and fun experience for a group of 4 as they are either being carried by that player or are that player and are bored of the minimal challenge.

Having three basic weapon wielders is good for multiplayer as players 2-4 are equally as powerful as Kirby with a copy ability as they function just like him. It makes the characters way easier to pick up and understand for beginners and multiplayer to be more balanced overall.

BD, Meta Knight, and King Dedede all serve as basic characters that copy the powers Kirby has, making it easier to teach players the basic fundamentals of Kirby. Adeline and the Dream Friends are made to be OP with learning curves. They have strange abilities unlike anything present in the game. Susie can randomly get Robobot armor, Magolor can shoot a ship, Adeline has massive drawings that reference previous entries while doing large sums of damage, etc. They aren’t good for a clean Kirby experience as they’re made to be more complicated requiring basic knowledge on the series to operate, while the trio is pick up and play, creating a cleaner and more fair multiplayer setting.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

BD is in a sense like Linkle except HAL was smart enough to capitalize on him right away. Linkle was an experimental design for a female hero in the Zelda universe, which is why she debuted in Hyrule Warriors (since the game wasn't canon). After that the Zelda fanbase started to warm the idea of a female hero more and Linkle gradually became popular. However, the Zelda dev team has never taken advantage of this and Linkle still remains non-canon.

BD, however, got popular right away. His asset was used in SSU and then reused in RtDL. He became popular right away just like Linkle, and HAL decided to reuse him several times like DDD and MK. He's been playable four times, has dialogue, and is very popular among the community. He has a basic design like the spear copy ability which makes him a fundamental asset in introducing new players to how the Kirby system works. Adeline and Ribbon have assets similar to the paint/artist ability but also uniqueness on their own. The rest of the Dream Firneds have their own unique moevsets, which is good on their own, but doesn't reflect BD's basic design.

My point is that:
A. BD is popular and people like him, not just because HAL is pushing him more than anyone else. He is simply easier tow work with.
B. He has the same fundamental design than DDD and MK have to introduce players to the most basic copy abilities. He functions in the same way that the other two do and there's no reason to isolate him or say he's different for any reason. He serves the same purpose.

 

[Arthur97]

BD is in a sense like Linkle except HAL was smart enough to capitalize on him right away. Linkle was an experimental design for a female hero in the Zelda universe, which is why she debuted in Hyrule Warriors (since the game wasn't canon). After that the Zelda fanbase started to warm the idea of a female hero more and Linkle gradually became popular. However, the Zelda dev team has never taken advantage of this and Linkle still remains non-canon.

BD, however, got popular right away. His asset was used in SSU and then reused in RtDL. He became popular right away just like Linkle, and HAL decided to reuse him several times like DDD and MK. He's been playable four times, has dialogue, and is very popular among the community. He has a basic design like the spear copy ability which makes him a fundamental asset in introducing new players to how the Kirby system works. Adeline and Ribbon have assets similar to the paint/artist ability but also uniqueness on their own. The rest of the Dream Firneds have their own unique moevsets, which is good on their own, but doesn't reflect BD's basic design.

My point is that:
A. BD is popular and people like him, not just because HAL is pushing him more than anyone else. He is simply easier tow work with.
B. He has the same fundamental design than DDD and MK have to introduce players to the most basic copy abilities. He functions in the same way that the other two do and there's no reason to isolate him or say he's different for any reason. He serves the same purpose.

I think Linkle may have issues due to being from a game made by KT. If you notice, I don't think anything from a Nintendo Warriors game has been referenced.

 

[Momotsuki]

Kirby Super Star Ultra is my favorite Kirby game and one of my favorite games of all time so I have no qualms seeing it and/or what it's a remake of get the bulk of the representation. That's just me, though.

 

[Deleted member]

>Masked Dedede became the Final Smash.
>Kirby kept his Return To Dreamland Final Smash.
>There's a lot of modern Kirby songs, most being the best ones.
>We got many spirits of modern Kirby stuff.
>We got cool alts of Dark Meta Knight and Galacta Knight.

I'm sorry, but i won't believe that Sakurai hates to work with modern Kirby stuff.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I think Linkle may have issues due to being from a game made by KT. If you notice, I don't think anything from a Nintendo Warriors game has been referenced.

True but IIRC she was used as an asset to display the idea of a female fighter and not to be some random OC (that was Lana). I could be wrong though.

 

[Captain Shades]

True but IIRC she was used as an asset to display the idea of a female fighter and not to be some random OC (that was Lana). I could be wrong though.

Honestly, I think you were a bit off. If anyone is in a similar boat to Bandana Dee from Zelda, it’d be Impa. I feel that Impa has become a sort of 3 wheel to the Link and Zelda relationship, highlighted in Skyward Sword and especially Hyrule Warriors. It also helps that she was a relatively underutilized character till roughly the same time period as the Dee, where she became more prominent. Plus like BD, she feels like a natural addition, very easily playing off Link and Zelda in personality and design in a similar fashion to BD with Kirby and friends. Heck, both of them are even guards to their respective royalty.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Honestly, I think you were a bit off. If anyone is in a similar boat to Bandana Dee from Zelda, it’d be Impa. I feel that Impa has become a sort of 3 wheel to the Link and Zelda relationship, highlighted in Skyward Sword and especially Hyrule Warriors. It also helps that she was a relatively underutilized character till roughly the same time period as the Dee, where she became more prominent. Plus like BD, she feels like a natural addition, very easily playing off Link and Zelda in personality and design in a similar fashion to BD with Kirby and friends. Heck, both of them are even guards to their respective royalty.

F for Impa, lads.

It's annoying when i discuss her and someone's wike "ew the old woman from zelda?" No, the badass from Skyward Sword.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

The problem with Adeline and Gooey, along with others is that they are not entry characters. To compare it to the game this site is based on, let’s look at Smash fighters. If I were to hand my controller over to a new player, would I tell them to play as Kirby or Bayonetta? Adeline and Gooey are very different, a Bayonetta of sorts. Their powers are strange and unlike anything in the game, which is very apparent in Star Allies as they have huge attacks that aren’t comparable to anyone. BD on the other hand is a spear copy ability stand in, in the same way Meta Knight and King Dedede are pretty much just basic sword and hammer. He’s an easy to grasp character with little flair, and one that you can get the hang of right away or after using the Spear copy ability. In a sense, BD in all areas is flexible, an easy 4th character that fits the puzzle. His design is as basic as the original trio, he is given just as much backstory and goals as the trio, and he plays easily so anyone can easily grasp how to play a Kirby game, which has been the main goal of having the 4 playable characters.

Adeline, as said by Iko MattOrr , has too much. It creates a divide as a 4th character as she is widely different, or it creates a divide between fans. Either Adeline has too much uniqueness that makes her difficult for new players to fully grasp and creates a divide in play style compared to the trio, or she is toned down to the point where she has wasted potential. Now remember, Kirby RTDL was pretty much a revival of Kirby after a ten year hiatus, so many people playing the title were probably completely new to the franchise, so throwing a curveball like Adeline or Gooey that don’t match up with the rest of the game could turn people away. Star Allies avoided this by being a 4th installment and having her as DLC after the game dropped, so new players would get the hang of everything before playing around with wild characters such as Adeline, Marx, or Susie.

Aside the fact that I have never said she "has too much" (but I got your point, no need to explain), I disagree with most of this. Metaknight is not an entry character as well, or at least, he wasn't until he was brought back in Amazing Mirror and Air Ride, effectively becoming a recurring character.
He became a main character just when HAL started to use him more and by default, without need to explain why he is there.
The same can happen to anyone else as well... Adeleine and Gooey are not excluded by this. Especially, they have incredibly simple designs and they would fit this pattern very well.
I agree that Adeleine's powers are strange and unique, but in my opinion, that's a positive thing, as it adds variety to the cast of characters.

BD works very well in some contexts, but I think he doesn't work in others. For example, in the story mode of Battle Royale, he's perfect... Kirby walks around and finds this random Waddle Dee who's trying to go somewhere, and he helps him. It works well because he fits as the random character that you meet just for a coincidence. Put any other character in that role, and it wouldn't work at all, because they all have more defined identities and too much personality to be seen in the same way.
On the othre hand, I think that he absolutely doesn't work as a 4th "main" character, for many reasons.
People misunderstood BWD's situation... the Kirby series has 4 main characters, and those are Kirby, Dedede, Metaknight and Waddle Dee. Bandana Dee is not a main character, Bandana Dee is a variation of Waddle Dee, but Waddle Dee is the main one. Waddle Dee is the one you can find the Amiibo of, Waddle Dee is the one 90% of the merchandise is based on, Waddle Dee is the one listed as one of the main characters in the official website, Kirby Portal.
Waddle Dee, Not Bandana Dee.
Bandana Dee is like, Sword Kirby, Fire Kirby... He's still Kirby but a variation of it, the main one is just Kirby.
That's why I think that if a Waddle Dee is ever going to be playable in Smash, it will be just Waddle Dee (with the bandana as a costume).

The discussion about curveball characters doesn't make sense at all, because BD was a very curveball character when he was added in the Wii game... he came from a Kirby Superstar minigame. If people don't know about a character, just re-introduce it properly and there won't be any issue. Look at Pauline in Mario Odyssey.

Back on Adeleine, I see the fact that she has "so much" as flexibility. She doesn't have a fixed set of moves, she doesn't have a fixed set of creatures to summon... you can change her gameplay drastically from game to game and she is still herself... in this, she is the character who's the most similar to Kirby himself in the whole franchise, as Kirby has also this very same property.
I agree with you that there is the risk of toning her down and waste her potential... in fact, I think that she could do much more than what they did in Star Allies... they could have been way more creative with her, but meh, at least they brought her back.

Honestly, I think you were a bit off. If anyone is in a similar boat to Bandana Dee from Zelda, it’d be Impa. I feel that Impa has become a sort of 3 wheel to the Link and Zelda relationship, highlighted in Skyward Sword and especially Hyrule Warriors. It also helps that she was a relatively underutilized character till roughly the same time period as the Dee, where she became more prominent. Plus like BD, she feels like a natural addition, very easily playing off Link and Zelda in personality and design in a similar fashion to BD with Kirby and friends. Heck, both of them are even guards to their respective royalty.

The problem with this comparison is that Impa usually gets involved with the main plot of the games, while Bandana Dee is never the focus of the story nor of the action. The only exception is Kirby's Battle Royale's story mode, but even there, the game still removes him from the focus by making him "not playable" in the multiplayer mode (you can play as Waddle Dee and change hats but the bandana is not an option), in a game where multiplayer is supposed to be the main mode.
If anything, Bandana Dee is more comparable to Tingle. He is (or at least has been for a while) a recurring character, but the story never focused on him, his actions never had any big impact with the plot of the game.

 

[Captain Shades]

To comment....again

Metaknight is not an entry character as well, or at least, he wasn't until he was brought back in Amazing Mirror and Air Ride, effectively becoming a recurring character.
He became a main character just when HAL started to use him more and by default, without need to explain why he is there.
The same can happen to anyone else as well... Adeleine and Gooey are not excluded by this. Especially, they have incredibly simple designs and they would fit this pattern very well.
I agree that Adeleine's powers are strange and unique, but in my opinion, that's a positive thing, as it adds variety to the cast of characters.

The discussion about curveball characters doesn't make sense at all, because BD was a very curveball character when he was added in the Wii game... he came from a Kirby Superstar minigame. If people don't know about a character, just re-introduce it properly and there won't be any issue. Look at Pauline in Mario Odyssey.

I think you completely missed what I was saying. What I meant by entry level and curveball was all relating to gameplay. Meta Knight, Dedede and Bandana Dee are all very basic pick up and play characters as they primarily just emulate the copy abilities of Kirby, they get a player used to the basic controls of Kirby, a concept the DLC Dream Friends simply work against. Adeline, Magolor, Marx and others are all to strange in design. Marx rolls around on a ball, Magolor pulls a full ship out of nowhere, Susie can randomly gain Robobot armor, and Adeline has many strange creations such as Kracko that are simply op. The DLC Dream Friends are weird and don’t follow the same rules as the Kirby 4 or any powers with enemies in the game. BD was simple as he was mainly just a representative of the spear ability with not much flair, so new players can easily transfer from him to other play styles. In terms of Smash, he’s like the Mario, a basic character that really shows the controls and mechanics of Smash without deviation from the norm being a decent speed and decent hitter, while most Dream Friends are more the the complicated characters. In a way, Adeline and Marx are pretty much the curveballs to norm of how Kirby characters play.

Characters like Adeline and Gooey run into issues as Gooey is unlike any power in Kirby, ruining the concept that Dream Friends lead people into learning the basic abilities in Kirby. Adeline is a painter, which is a power, but she is clearly not an average enemy as she has way bigger abilities if they are to keep in line with appearances. Another issue is really just the painter ability itself as the ability is on the more slower and more thought inducing spectrum of Kirby as the ability is known to work a bit slower than the rest and creates some weird effects that take getting used to. In effect, Adeline would be weird for new players to grasp as the artist ability is a bit weirder on attacks, unlike the very easy to understand melee weapons which get to the point and have easily understandable attributes and uses.

While I get your comment on diversity, sometimes that isn’t a good thing. I feel this is one of those cases, especially when looking at something like New Super Mario Bros. NSMB had many critics of characters like Nabbit and now Toadette as they were too unique to the point that one or two players are clearly given more advantages than others. I kind of worry that bumping one of the Dream Friends to 4th player status will be the same thing as they’d have to be unique, but when does being unique clearly create an advantage or disadvantage for the 4th person.



As for story, BD is actually explained. I think many forget that he played a major role in Super Star Ultra during the King’s Revenge section. In said section they explain that Bandana Dee is the captain of the Dees and was Dedede’s most loyal and best Dee. In the story he actually sacrifices himself and fights Kirby with no training in an attempt to help Dedede even though Dedede spared his life from the puff ball. In future titles his spear ability would be explained as him training to become stronger as a result of being beaten by Kirby. He seems to hold no grudge against Kirby and is more driven by loyalty to train and become the King’s top protector, so really why he hangs around is to prove himself to the trio that he is as capable as they are. Even in Battle Royal, his appearance wasn’t just him being found at the side of the road as a random encounter. They explained that he was running errands for Dedede and was carrying a cake back to the castle, him and Kirby crossed paths due to Kirby running towards the castle for the competition. Him even joining Kirby in the Royal makes since when you factor in that he wants to be the best to Dedede.
It seems to me that BD is a good choice as he has a solid reason to hanging out with the other characters, just like all 4 of the main Kirby characters have a reason to get involved in plots as Kirby usually stumbles upon the plot. Dedede has his land attacked or he is possessed. Meta Knight is for protecting Dream Land and watching over Kirby as you seem to forget that Meta Knight has been a main character since Adventure, or for sure Super Star, where he actively wants Dream Land to be prepared for war (his goal being to rid DreamLand of laziness in Super Star) and was even a semi-mentor to Kirby in the anime. Finally we have BD who looks to bask in the same spot light as the three and protect the King.

 

[Deleted member]

I will say that the Dark Meta Knight alt in Ultimate is dope.
It feels like playing as the actual character it is based on, but without the Mirror abilities.

The Galacta Knight one only needs the horns.

 

[Captain Shades]

I will say that the Dark Meta Knight alt in Ultimate is dope.
It feels like playing as the actual character it is based on, but without the Mirror abilities.

The Galacta Knight one only needs the horns.

Yeah they are pretty cool, I’ll give Sakurai credit on including those.

To respond to your previous post, most are just mad about the lack of significant modern Kirby material. Other than the Final Smashes and costumes, modern Kirby is solely represented by material from other games. Modern Kirby songs are typically just taken straight from the source game and spirits are nothing more than jpg images. I think most are looking for something more significant, like a stage based on modern Kirby as we have an over saturation of Super Star stages. Assists would also be nice as Sakurai just picked two generic enemies and Nightmare (a character no one cares for at this point), when he could have added Susie, Magalor, or a whole host of Kirby’s unique cast. Then finally, most see a character as something Kirby should get, especially since Kirby has multiplayer titles with an extra 4th character palling around.