Sakurai and his own Kirby bias

[Iko MattOrr]

Captain Shades You kinda have a point about advantages/disadvantages in gameplay... but what you brought in as an example is a very extreme case.
Nabbit lets you ignore the enemies, because he's invincible to them... Peachette can jump out from the pits without dying.
Both of those 2 characters ignore 2 major elements of the basic gameplay of Mario.
Also, 2D Mario is a very technical game were you have to calculate the jumps by pixel in order to perform precise platforming; having those skills removes part of what makes the Mario gameplay good.
Anyway, people didn't complain about them being different, they complained about not having an option to play as all toads to all have the same basic skills. You can have those special characters and make them optional, that's ok; just let the player select multiple copies of the same character and nobody would complain... I think people complained about not being able to play as 4 Kirbies in Star Allies too.

Kirby is different, it has less focus on platforming and more focus on puzzles and beat-em-up. Having different special skills isn't that bad in a series like this.
Think of Team Kirby Clash, you have 4 different classes, they all have completely different properties... Sword is DPS and defense, Hammer is the very slow damage dealer, Beam can stop time and do ranged attacks, while Doctor is the healer and has little damage power. They are kinda unbalanced, but if you put them together, they compensate each other... and you can also experiment with different combinations of team, to adapt to a specific bossfight.
Characters with different skills is not bad as long as they are equally balanced.
I think that all the Dream Friends can be balanced to not be OP... in fact, I think they are made OP on purpose, but if they are going to become entry characters, they would be toned down for sure. Just look at Metaknight in Metaknightmare Ultra, he can heal himself, gain a boost, summon helpers, blow up the screen. He has got none of those abilities in Kirby's Return to Dreamland.
BTW just for reference, Bandana Dee in Rainbow Curse has that same problem of having a completely different gameplay than the main character, so that's not something that you can generalize too much.
Also, Gooey is basic enough to become an entry character as well, in fact he already has been one once. You can exclude part of his Dark Matter powers and he's just fine, he didn't have those in KDL3 aside of the final bossfight.

What about Adeleine? Yes, she's kinda "more" different than most of the other Dream Friends (to continue the Mario comparison, she's kinda the Peach of Super Mario Bros 2), but is she that much different to be that much hard to play for a newcomer? Yes? If we take her Star Allies moveset, sure! If you check, I already complained about this, in the Adeleine thread... they made her too much unintuitive to play, many unexperienced players can't use her summons and just spam Ribbon's Crystal and Fairy Dance all the time. That's because how they designed her, but they can still change her...
As I said before, she is very flexible, they can redesign her gameplay completely several times and she would still keep her identity.
You can remove Ribbon to only focus on paint, and design a simpler gameplay that don't require that much strategy to be played (but keep that depth as an optional feature for experienced players).
IMO it's perfectly possible...
The only "problem" of Adeleine IMO is being designed for 2D gameplay, and the only case where I see Adeleine hard to adapt is in case of a 3D game (and even that's still not impossible, just hard).

On a side note, is that Revenge of the King scene important enough to be considered a "major role"? Imo it's just a gag, and in comparison, Sailor Dee's role is way bigger in the same game.
Most of Bandana Dee's characterization comes from pause screens and bios. He never did anything big enough to deviate the course of the events in a Kirby game. The biggest actions he ever did have been that moment in Revenge of the King and that moment in the opening cutscene of Rainbow Curse when he attacks Dark Crafter's hands, but both actions don't have any effect on the overall story and are instantly forgotten a moment later.
In the Wii game, he just does what the group do... you could put any character in place of him and it wouldn't affect the story in any way... heck, King Dedede and Metaknight are "just there" too in that game.
IMO Battle Royale is the only time when Bandana Dee actually gets the spotlight as a main character, and, as I explained, it's just in the story mode that's considered the minor mode ot the two.

 

[CardiganBoy]

I rather have Kirby bias than the Kid Icarus bias which was present all over Smash 4.

 

[Captain Shades]

I read your response Iko MattOrr and I can agree with many of the points.

Adeline is definitely hard to use in Star Allies, but I can’t really think of many alternatives. I think paint is just naturally a harder ability to work with and Adeline already being preestablished as not having much of a jump makes it harder. Add in the fact that Adeline makes crazy creatures in her boss battles that break the norm of painter and it just makes it worse as her paintings are made to be huge. I understand Adeline has potential and could be more interesting than BD, but that might be a reason to why she shouldn’t be a main character, or the 4th one as she can still be a main character in a similar vein to like Rosalina or much of the Mario cast that isn’t the usual Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Toad. I think Adeline and really all the Dream Friends should be main characters, which seems to be HAL’s goal as they want to expand Kirby’s cast through Star Allies. I think Adeline could be unique, so having her as like a 5th to provide a unique play style makes sense. I think the Kirby 4 provide a basic understanding of controls and what copy abilities do, so Adeline can work as a character that expands past those rules and provides a fun new take, just like the Dream Friends do.

I also want to question the story bit too as what big thing has Adeline ever done? Other than a few boss battles she seems to only follow Kirby with no explanation. Her biggest role in 64 was doing the lesser role of BD by giving Kirby items from the background. Honestly, it seems weird how you claim BD can be removed from most games when the two games Adeline were in had her do the bare minimum, not even having her be playable, and only giving her a boss fight that turn into a 1 hit joke like BD then has her be a background element.

To maybe take this discussion in a new direction, I think the issue is less about BD taking the spot of a better character and more about how HAL should allow Kirby to have a bigger cast, and by extension Sakurai or whoever makes the next Smash needs to relies that Kirby has expanded far past Super Star and treat Kirby and Zelda about as equally as Pokémon and Mario in terms of characters. Luckily, it seems the Kirby franchise is going in this direction and is finally accepting a huge cast of characters instead of relying on 3-4 to be in every title, while all other characters are exclusive to 1-2 games.

To end this, I disagree with BD being a bad character as I feel he serves his purpose well. He easily slides into the 4th character slot as a representative of Waddle Dees, as like you said, 90% of Kirby’s marketing is centered around the species. I think he’s easy for new players to understand and form a connection with, which makes him a good entry character even if he isn’t the most fleshed out. He’s a character that easily introduces people to Kirby, which at the time of his creation was needed in a 4th character as again, RTDL was the first standard Kirby experience in years as the series slowly lost its identity. He also helped in reinforcing that RTDL was a return to Super Star, not previous Kirby titles, as it took HAL a while to get the Super Star formula right, as they dropped many of the mechanics after Super Star’s release. I believe that BD was a good option for the situation Kirby was in, in the same way that Awakening was good for the position Fire Emblem was trapped in. Yes, there are better characters, but BD was simple in every way to ensure that anyone could fully understand Kirby and hopefully lead into generating enough appeal to make Kirby a major success, which it did.

I like BD and hope he continues to be prominent in the future, but on the same coin, Kirby is huge now, so HAL should bring Adeline and the others back and make them main characters again. Kirby can handle a big cast as he is pretty much Nintendo’s 4th golden child under Mario, Pokémon, and Zelda.

Sorry to derail discussion, I just feel that it is pointless to argue with you as I can agree on many points. All I’m really doing is defending BD as is is a valuable character, but I don’t think other Kirby characters should be thrown out for him. As fans, we should only hope that HAL expands, not pick a favorite.

 

[Oddball]

The argument that Bandanna Dee is the better character because he's the generic boring character that doesn't stand out really doesn't work for me. Maybe it's just me, but if I were making a game, I'd want to use the interesting characters that DO stand out.

Because they're interesting.

and they stand out.

 

[Captain Shades]

The argument that Bandanna Dee is the better character because he's the generic boring character that doesn't stand out really doesn't work for me. Maybe it's just me, but if I were making a game, I'd want to use the interesting characters that DO stand out.

Because they're interesting.

and they stand out.

I get that.

To me BD really represents the Waddle Dee species which is a unique species from Kirby that definitely deserved to be bigger. The enemy type is iconic, so why not create a mascot for them that can pal around with Kirby.

I feel the same way for the Mario series as now they are pulling a BD for the toad species by having Toadette and Captain Toad be mascots. They are a unique spin on the generic species of the franchise so they can have a definitive character that represents them.

I also feel the interesting characters can be problematic at times as either designs clash or powers are unevenly distributed, just look at something like the cast of Mario 64 DS and the 4 playable characters are strange, and the game clearly favors Mario and Luigi over Wario and Yoshi. My guess as to why the New series doesn’t have Wario and Waluigi as the last two characters is because of them being too different to work with as their body proportions mean there’d be significantly changed hit boxes and such.

IDK, I don’t mind Dee as the Kirby team clearly put some level of effort into him instead of just creating an alternate color like with the toads, so I really don’t mind him or the characters he spawned to become the next him for their franchises like Captain Toad and Toadette. I feel these characters highlight the great species in the worlds and give them a symbol to become more than generic, especially for something like Smash as BD and Captain Toad are given more than their species to work with.

 

[Quillion]

I will say that the Dark Meta Knight alt in Ultimate is dope.
It feels like playing as the actual character it is based on, but without the Mirror abilities.

The Galacta Knight one only needs the horns.

I think Galacta Knight outright needs to be an Echo, not to languish as a half-done or even full-done alt.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I think Galacta Knight outright needs to be an Echo, not to languish as a half-done or even full-done alt.

I personally think Galacta Knight would work better as a unique fighter but that's just me.

On the topic of echoes, Hilda should be an echo of Zelda.

 

[Captain Shades]

I think Galacta Knight outright needs to be an Echo, not to languish as a half-done or even full-done alt.

Make it happen Nintendo!

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I rather have Kirby bias than the Kid Icarus bias which was present all over Smash 4.

I think the opposite as you. If Ultimate had more Kid Icarus songs and kept Magnus as an AT character, then that would’ve been great (really wanted Dog’s Theme, Boss Fight 2, and Aurum Island to be in the game). Atleast the lack of new songs is made up in the staff item, the new guidances and Pit’s OP Star KO scream

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I rather have Kirby bias than the Kid Icarus bias which was present all over Smash 4.

It was pretty obvious that there was a Kid icarus favoritism in Smash 4 but at least it wasn't god awful. Although the fact that KI had more fighters than DK was pretty lame.

 

[Opossum]

It was pretty obvious that there was a Kid icarus favoritism in Smash 4 but at least it wasn't god awful. Although the fact that KI had more fighters than DK was pretty lame.

I mean, Dark Pit was literally a last minute clone. I don't think that really counts for much more than a bonus. Each of them still had two unique characters.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

Spoiler: Off topic about characters

I also want to question the story bit too as what big thing has Adeline ever done? Other than a few boss battles she seems to only follow Kirby with no explanation. Her biggest role in 64 was doing the lesser role of BD by giving Kirby items from the background. Honestly, it seems weird how you claim BD can be removed from most games when the two games Adeline were in had her do the bare minimum, not even having her be playable, and only giving her a boss fight that turn into a 1 hit joke like BD then has her be a background element.

IMO Adeleine and Bandana Dee are in a similar position about story relevance, series-wise, with the only difference being that Bandana Dee is recent, while Adeleine had her relevancy moment only in the Dark Matter trilogy many years ago.
I already explained my opinion about BD, now I'll focus on Adeleine:

Adeleine has got her role as a supporting character in 2/3 of the Dark Matter trilogy. She has got her spotlight moment in the true ending of KDL3 (the credits cutscene is her doing portraits of the other characters), and had her moment of relevancy in Kirby 64 (by the way, she did a bit more than just throwing objects at you, she helped with a few art-related puzzles too and she was one of the 4 playable characters in the minigames).
Maybe those aren't major roles story-wise, but at least she was part of the main plot... the main plot consisted in Dark Matter invading planets and possessing people, and Adeleine was used as a way to explain this (along with Dedede and Waddle Dee), at least in Kirby 64.
Adeleine found a crystal, then she was possessed, and the protagonists had to defeat her in order to get the crystal back; after this, she decided to join the protagonists... as little as it was, it was a small story arc all about her, and it was part of the main plot (defeat Dark Matter, restore the crystal).
Though, this only applies to Kirby 64, while in Kirby's Dream Land 3, she was just a boss, and didn't have much involvement in the story (though she still recived the focus during that credits cutscene for some reason).

Anyway, Adeleine was only in those 2 games, so she can't be considered a main character in the overall series (so far).
The point is that nobody ever considered her to be a main character, outside of specifically Kirby 64 only; me and some other users only said that she could become a main character, not that she actually is.

About Bandana Dee instead, people constantly claim that he's the 4th member of the crew; what I was trying to say is that IMO that's not true, and I think that he's a recurring secondary character more than a primary one (also because I think that HAL considers Waddle Dees as a species to be the true 4th main character, not a specific version of Waddle Dee; and there is quite some evidence of this in official material).

Adeline is definitely hard to use in Star Allies, but I can’t really think of many alternatives. I think paint is just naturally a harder ability to work with and Adeline already being preestablished as not having much of a jump makes it harder. Add in the fact that Adeline makes crazy creatures in her boss battles that break the norm of painter and it just makes it worse as her paintings are made to be huge. I understand Adeline has potential and could be more interesting than BD, but that might be a reason to why she shouldn’t be a main character, or the 4th one as she can still be a main character in a similar vein to like Rosalina or much of the Mario cast that isn’t the usual Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Toad. I think Adeline and really all the Dream Friends should be main characters, which seems to be HAL’s goal as they want to expand Kirby’s cast through Star Allies. I think Adeline could be unique, so having her as like a 5th to provide a unique play style makes sense. I think the Kirby 4 provide a basic understanding of controls and what copy abilities do, so Adeline can work as a character that expands past those rules and provides a fun new take, just like the Dream Friends do.

I mostly agree with this, except for not being able to think of alternatives (I think there are a lot).
I wish they stopped adding new "main" characters every game and focused on the old ones more instead; new characters are necessary but if you add too many of them, you'll end having the same problem as the Sonic series, where they don't even know what to do with the characters anymore.
Additionally, each character you add will gain a fanbase, and if you exclude that character from the series, the fanbase of said character will be disappointed.
I wouldn't mind Adeleine becoming the "Rosalina" of Kirby, honestly that's how they should have treated her since the beginning.
(I still wish they made a 5 players Kirby game on WiiU where one of the players would play as Adeleine on the touch screen, drawing platforms and summoning stuff for the other players)
I also want all the Dream Friends to stay and be part of the main cast, and I'd also like if Chef Kawasaki was upgraded to Dream Friend/full character as well, since out of all the helpers, he's the one with the biggest influence and characterization, other than being the only one with a specific theme song.

To stay in topic, while I'm sad about Metroid Prime 4 being delayed, I also see it as a hope for Kirby content in Smash (as DLC), because if Sylux was really going to take a slot as a promotional character, now he became very unlikely, and maybe we can get a kirby character instead.
Sakurai has a chance to prove all the rumors about his bias false, I hope he doesn't waste it.

 

[Opossum]

Spoiler: Off topic about characters

IMO Adeleine and Bandana Dee are in a similar position about story relevance, series-wise, with the only difference being that Bandana Dee is recent, while Adeleine had her relevancy moment only in the Dark Matter trilogy many years ago.
I already explained my opinion about BD, now I'll focus on Adeleine:

Adeleine has got her role as a supporting character in 2/3 of the Dark Matter trilogy. She has got her spotlight moment in the true ending of KDL3 (the credits cutscene is her doing portraits of the other characters), and had her moment of relevancy in Kirby 64 (by the way, she did a bit more than just throwing objects at you, she helped with a few art-related puzzles too and she was one of the 4 playable characters in the minigames).
Maybe those aren't major roles story-wise, but at least she was part of the main plot... the main plot consisted in Dark Matter invading planets and possessing people, and Adeleine was used as a way to explain this (along with Dedede and Waddle Dee), at least in Kirby 64.
Adeleine found a crystal, then she was possessed, and the protagonists had to defeat her in order to get the crystal back; after this, she decided to join the protagonists... as little as it was, it was a small story arc all about her, and it was part of the main plot (defeat Dark Matter, restore the crystal).
Though, this only applies to Kirby 64, while in Kirby's Dream Land 3, she was just a boss, and didn't have much involvement in the story (though she still recived the focus during that credits cutscene for some reason).

Anyway, Adeleine was only in those 2 games, so she can't be considered a main character in the overall series (so far).
The point is that nobody ever considered her to be a main character, outside of specifically Kirby 64 only; me and some other users only said that she could become a main character, not that she actually is.

About Bandana Dee instead, people constantly claim that he's the 4th member of the crew; what I was trying to say is that IMO that's not true, and I think that he's a recurring secondary character more than a primary one (also because I think that HAL considers Waddle Dees as a species to be the true 4th main character, not a specific version of Waddle Dee; and there is quite some evidence of this in official material).



I mostly agree with this, except for not being able to think of alternatives (I think there are a lot).
I wish they stopped adding new "main" characters every game and focused on the old ones more instead; new characters are necessary but if you add too many of them, you'll end having the same problem as the Sonic series, where they don't even know what to do with the characters anymore.
Additionally, each character you add will gain a fanbase, and if you exclude that character from the series, the fanbase of said character will be disappointed.
I wouldn't mind Adeleine becoming the "Rosalina" of Kirby, honestly that's how they should have treated her since the beginning.
(I still wish they made a 5 players Kirby game on WiiU where one of the players would play as Adeleine on the touch screen, drawing platforms and summoning stuff for the other players)
I also want all the Dream Friends to stay and be part of the main cast, and I'd also like if Chef Kawasaki was upgraded to Dream Friend/full character as well, since out of all the helpers, he's the one with the biggest influence and characterization, other than being the only one with a specific theme song.

To stay in topic, while I'm sad about Metroid Prime 4 being delayed, I also see it as a hope for Kirby content in Smash (as DLC), because if Sylux was really going to take a slot as a promotional character, now he became very unlikely, and maybe we can get a kirby character instead.
Sakurai has a chance to prove all the rumors about his bias false, I hope he doesn't waste it.

If Sylux was chosen as one of the five, there's no way that plan has now changed. It's almost 100% likely at this point that Sylux was never chosen to begin with, and Nintendo may have given Sakurai a heads-up before giving him the list of characters, as they'd know the state of Prime 4's development before he would.

Either that, or they'd knowingly keep Sylux off the list.

 

[Quillion]

I rather have Kirby bias than the Kid Icarus bias which was present all over Smash 4.

What bias? Kid Icarus only got one full new character, one echo, and two stages split between the versions.

If you're referring to the guidance, literally everyone wanted it. What would have been a better alternative, pray tell?

 

[Opossum]

I mean I'm sure people will bring up the Smash Run enemies, but seriously...Sakurai had a ton of assets he could reuse from Uprising. Why wouldn't he reuse them?

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I say favoritism only because the proportion of new KI content in Smash compared to other series is almost overwhelming, but straight up bias is out of the question. Sakurai has never been biased enough toward a series that we've gotten a level of favoritism that somme people claim we have.

 

[Necro'lic]

People have been bringing up better points against Bandanna Dee lately. I feel I should remark considering he's at the top of my wanted fighters list at the moment.

In regards to Adeleine or whoever else that's a side character is better suited as the fourth Kirby fighter, I disagree mostly due to the fact that side characters in Kirby rarely ever star in more than one game, while Bandanna Dee has been in plenty of them at this point. Heck, before Star Allies DLC, none of these side characters were even playable in the series.

Second, while I don't really care about how complicated a prospective moveset is for a newcomer (seriously, I come up with far more out there moveset change suggestions for simple characters), I think Bandanna Dee's moveset in particular is not only complete in terms of migrating it from Kirby to Smash, but it's an archetype/flavor that we don't have in the game at all.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

People have been bringing up better points against Bandanna Dee lately. I feel I should remark considering he's at the top of my wanted fighters list at the moment.

In regards to Adeleine or whoever else that's a side character is better suited as the fourth Kirby fighter, I disagree mostly due to the fact that side characters in Kirby rarely ever star in more than one game, while Bandanna Dee has been in plenty of them at this point. Heck, before Star Allies DLC, none of these side characters were even playable in the series.

Second, while I don't really care about how complicated a prospective moveset is for a newcomer (seriously, I come up with far more out there moveset change suggestions for simple characters), I think Bandanna Dee's moveset in particular is not only complete in terms of migrating it from Kirby to Smash, but it's an archetype/flavor that we don't have in the game at all.

We need more people like you on this forum.

 

[Necro'lic]

We need more people like you on this forum.

<3

But I'm not anything special. Unless high standards involve just talking about a topic honestly. :/

 

[Iko MattOrr]

In regards to Adeleine or whoever else that's a side character is better suited as the fourth Kirby fighter, I disagree mostly due to the fact that side characters in Kirby rarely ever star in more than one game, while Bandanna Dee has been in plenty of them at this point. Heck, before Star Allies DLC, none of these side characters were even playable in the series.

That's technically not true....
Gooey was fully playable in KDL3, the animals were playable in both KDL2 and 3 (as mounts like Yoshi), and Adeleine was playable in the minigames of Kirby 64; additionally, she was planned to be playable in the main mode too but for some reason the feature was scrapped in the final game (though she was playable in one of the unreleased beta versions of the game and there are a couple of screenshots somewhere).

 

[Necro'lic]

That's technically not true....
Gooey was fully playable in KDL3, the animals were playable in both KDL2 and 3 (as mounts like Yoshi), and Adeleine was playable in the minigames of Kirby 64; additionally, she was planned to be playable in the main mode too but for some reason the feature was scrapped in the final game (though she was playable in one of the unreleased beta versions of the game and there are a couple of screenshots somewhere).

I knew I missed some. Well, either way, besides those particular playable instances, they still occur only within their introductory games.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

I knew I missed some. Well, either way, besides those particular playable instances, they still occur only within their introductory games.

Yeah but if we exclude Star Allies, Bandana Dee has only been playable in 2 games, one of which is a spin-off.
On the other hand, the animals have been "playable" in 2 main series games, so if we only focus on playable instances, the animals win (if you consider their blocks in Star Stacker/Super Star Stacker as a form of being playable as well, they also have their couple of spin-offs on their side, not to talk about the stone statues in Kirby 64).

I think it's stupid to compare characters who had 1 or 2 playable instances and claim that one is superior to the other; they are all in similar situations, including Bandana Dee.

 

[Necro'lic]

Yeah but if we exclude Star Allies, Bandana Dee has only been playable in 2 games, one of which is a spin-off.
On the other hand, the animals have been "playable" in 2 main series games, so if we only focus on playable instances, the animals win (if you consider their blocks in Star Stacker/Super Star Stacker as a form of being playable as well, they also have their couple of spin-offs on their side).

I think it's stupid to compare characters who had 1 or 2 playable instances and claim that one is superior to the other; they are all in similar situations, including Bandana Dee.

But then we have to remember how many games they were in comparatively in general. Dedede doesn't have too many playable instances in comparison with how many times he shows up, but no one would say his presentation in Smash is unwarranted. Bandanna Dee is (I believe) one of the most represented proper side characters of the series thus far in terms of appearances in game.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Yeah but if we exclude Star Allies, Bandana Dee has only been playable in 2 games, one of which is a spin-off.
On the other hand, the animals have been "playable" in 2 main series games, so if we only focus on playable instances, the animals win (if you consider their blocks in Star Stacker/Super Star Stacker as a form of being playable as well, they also have their couple of spin-offs on their side, not to talk about the stone statues in Kirby 64).

I think it's stupid to compare characters who had 1 or 2 playable instances and claim that one is superior to the other; they are all in similar situations, including Bandana Dee.

He's playable in RtDL and RC, but IIRC he's playable in BR?

 

[Iko MattOrr]

He's playable in RtDL and RC, but IIRC he's playable in BR?

I think in Battle Royale you can only play as a Waddle Dee, but the bandana can't be selected as an hat.
Honestly I skipped that game because I didn't like it, though I'm pretty sure that he's a teammate in the story mode but he isn't playable... I may be wrong though.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I think in Battle Royale you can only play as a Waddle Dee, but the bandana can't be selected as an hat.
Honestly I skipped that game because I didn't like it, though I'm pretty sure that he's a teammate in the story mode but he isn't playable... I may be wrong though.

I skipped it too but I remember hearing he was playable, guess I was wrong.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

But then we have to remember how many games they were in comparatively in general. Dedede doesn't have too many playable instances in comparison with how many times he shows up, but no one would say his presentation in Smash is unwarranted. Bandanna Dee is (I believe) one of the most represented proper side characters of the series thus far in terms of appearances in game.

Saying Dedede is an example of a prime character that got into Smash... isn't the best comparison. King Dedede has been in Kirby since the beginning, and has been in pretty much every game since, minus a few exceptions like Amazing Mirror. A better example of this would be Meta Knight. His first appearance was in Kirby's second game, and he appeared infrequently until the anime days.
Besides, the original animal trio actually have quite a few appearances under their belt. Triple Deluxe/Fighters Deluxe, some cameos in Rainbow Curse, Team Kirby Clash Deluxe and the obvious Star Allies are the most they've appeared in recent years, but they also show up in stone form, not just in 64 but in Super Star Ultra and the modern games, as well as 2 sets of stickers in Robobot. They're even starting to appear in the marketing now.
Are they prime for being in Smash due to their appearances? Personally, I think it would be tricky to manage, and not something I'd immediately go for, but I think they could technically be in the running based on appearances alone. I don't know if Bandana Dee appears more than them game-wise, but the point stands.

 

[Captain Shades]

I think the Bandana Waddle Dee is a main character at this point, and I have a few reasons as to why.

1) Since Super Star Ultra in 2009, Bandana Dee has appeared in some form in all Kirby titles. He was a boss in SSU, a playable character in RTDL, a background helper in both TD and PR, was playable again in RC, was with the main cast for the announcement of Kirby’s 20th anniversary, was a guide in Team Kirby Clash, had the story somewhat revolve around him in Battle Royal, and is a Dream Friend in Star Allies. (Also a background character in Mass Attack)

2) He gained a Mii hat in the Mii plaza, a position reserved for only the main trio and Prince Fluff

3) Waddle Dees have always been a main 4th character and BD is essentially the most recognized and finally diversified Waddle Dee

4) When looking at Dream Friends, all of them represent a specific game outside of the first three being King Dedede, Meta Knight, and Bandana Dee, which is strange seeing as how BD could have easily represented Ultra or RTDL.

5) He was given a voice and has his own theme.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I think the Bandana Waddle Dee is a main character at this point, and I have a few reasons as to why.

1) Since Super Star Ultra in 2009, Bandana Dee has appeared in some form in all Kirby titles. He was a boss in SSU, a playable character in RTDL, a background helper in both TD and PR, was playable again in RC, was with the main cast for the announcement of Kirby’s 20th anniversary, was a guide in Team Kirby Clash, had the story somewhat revolve around him in Battle Royal, and is a Dream Friend in Star Allies. (Also a background character in Mass Attack)

2) He gained a Mii hat in the Mii plaza, a position reserved for only the main trio and Prince Fluff

3) Waddle Dees have always been a main 4th character and BD is essentially the most recognized and finally diversified Waddle Dee

4) When looking at Dream Friends, all of them represent a specific game outside of the first three being King Dedede, Meta Knight, and Bandana Dee, which is strange seeing as how BD could have easily represented Ultra or RTDL.

5) He was given a voice and has his own theme.

You should stop by at the Dee support thread more often. We could really use this kind of support!

Also, saw this online, just leaving this here because hot damn I see this argument way too many times (It was made before the November direct).

 

[Captain Shades]

You should stop by at the Dee support thread more often. We could really use this kind of support!

Also, saw this online, just leaving this here because hot damn I see this argument way too many times (It was made before the November direct).
View attachment 188927

I stop by there every so often, probably stopped because I’m a little lost as I drop in mid conversation, but yeah BD has been my most requested character since 2011. I was extremely disappointed by his out right exclusion from anything in Smash Wii U, like not even a trophy, and Ultimate kinda cuts deep.

I will admit that I am that Mario guy though. Captain Toad and Waluigi would have been great additions. The rest are pretty trash though, like why is Geno so popular he literally does nothing in the Mario franchise overall. His only history is being in the first Mario RPG game. I swear this community has a dart board with a list of all the most obscure characters they can find and then they rally behind them and act high and mighty by hating on modern characters because they aren’t as good.

Also you could probably add Fire Emblem to that image

 

[Mogisthelioma]

he literally does nothing

*Laughs hysterically* OK so you wouldn't get this but the phrase that something "does nothing" is a hilarious joke for anyone who plays Magic: The Gathering so that comment just made my day ( I'd Negæte That can cite this).

Aside from Geno, who I also can't understand (he falls under this "25 fighters" rule that I have: I can think of at least 25 characters I would rather see as a fighter than them), it really bugs me when people say that Kirby is fine as it it. it's not. The way the series is represented in Smash (most content being from Super Star or earlier) suggests that the series peaked in 1996--over two decades ago--and hasn't reached a point that constitutes additional representation since. Not to mention that the lack of Kirby representation overall in the game suggests that the series is smaller than most and three fighters is all it can handle. It's really sad to see this misunderstanding of the series and I wish Sakurai could figure out that by representing Kirby in this way some people are becoming immersed in this illusion.

Also you could probably add Fire Emblem to that image

I didn't make the image but yeah that would make sense too.

 

[Captain Shades]

Aside from Geno, who I also can't understand (he falls under this "25 fighters" rule that I have: I can think of at least 2 characters I would rather see as a fighter than them), it really bugs me when people say that Kirby is fine as it it. it's not. The way the series is represented in Smash (most content being from Super Star or earlier) suggests that the series peaked in 1996--over two decades ago--and hasn't reached a point that constitutes additional representation since. Not to mention that the lack of Kirby representation overall in the game suggests that the series is smaller than most and three fighters is all it can handle. It's really sad to see this misunderstanding of the series and I wish Sakurai could figure out that by representing Kirby in this way some people are becoming immersed in this illusion.

I completely agree. I typically give Brawl and prior games a pass due to HAL having issues with the series at that time, plus most of the stages were iconic franchise locations like the Hal Berd which were not specific to any one game. Smash 4 is where I feel the representation got really low sided though as a very specific Super Star and Dream Land stage was created for both versions respectively. Add in the fact that the new assist was Nightmare, a character no one remembers and was only in Adventure, and you have me peeved. RTDL was literally only a few years prior, and this glorious return gets a Final Smash and a few trophies. Then DLC nor Ultimate bring in BD or any new characters or stages. It just feels wrong that Kirby gets shafted outside of 3 games. Honestly, if Sakurai only wanted 3, then can he at least make non-specific stages like Dedede’s castle, so at least they are timeless.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I completely agree. I typically give Brawl and prior games a pass due to HAL having issues with the series at that time, plus most of the stages were iconic franchise locations like the Hal Berd which were not specific to any one game. Smash 4 is where I feel the representation got really low sided though as a very specific Super Star and Dream Land stage was created for both versions respectively. Add in the fact that the new assist was Nightmare, a character no one remembers and was only in Adventure, and you have me peeved. RTDL was literally only a few years prior, and this glorious return gets a Final Smash and a few trophies. Then DLC nor Ultimate bring in BD or any new characters or stages. It just feels wrong that Kirby gets shafted outside of 3 games. Honestly, if Sakurai only wanted 3, then can he at least make non-specific stages like Dedede’s castle, so at least they are timeless.

That's another good point. A lot of people I see on the internet--not just Smash Boards--argue that Kirby is fine as it is since the three fighters we currently have appear in almost every Kirby game, not just the original ones. But that's because they're the timeless characters; it wouldn't really be a Kirby game without them. Imagine if Nintendo made a Mario spinoff but Mario was completely absent: would people begin to say Mario should be removed from Smash? No. So it makes no sense that the three timeless Kirby characters (BWD unfortunately doesn't count since he really didn't begin as a character until SSU) would account for the entirety of the Kirby franchise (coincidentally most of the people who say that three fighters is all Kirby needs also happen to advocate for the inclusion of more Fire Emblem fighters but I'm sure that's irrelevant).

 

[Quillion]

Okay I get it: Bandana Dee is the fourth main character. He's relevant, prominent, and popular. He lacks a bit in uniqueness, but regarding the former three qualities, he's got it down pat.

I don't disagree that Bandana Dee is the fourth main character currently. I'm just trying to argue that Bandana Dee does not deserve the big push that HAL is giving him.

Kirby, Meta Knight, and King Dedede all have very unique designs, abilities, and personalities that making someone as non-unique and personality-free as Bandana Dee the fourth main character just makes him out-of-place side by side with the other main three. Making Bandana Dee Kirby's fourth main character was a big mistake on HAL's part, and no one can argue against this.

And no, arguing that Bandana Dee deserves to be the fourth main character because... he is the fourth main character is juat begging the question.

 

[ZelDan]

As a Kirby fan, I'm indifferent to BD being playable in Smash, and outside of him, I can't really think of any I'd want playable.

I do wish Kirby got more interesting and better stages though. Two stages are just Whispy woods stages, Fountain of Dreams which is easily my favorite, and then that garbage GCO one.

As for boss battles, I think it'd be awesome if Galacta Knight was a boss. or at the very least add in his boss battle theme...

 

[Mogisthelioma]

People who aren't as familiar to the Kirby series seem to freak out when more than one Kirby newcomer is proposed. These are my top picks and here's why:
1. Bandana Waddle Dee: Obvious choice, the only one that really doesn't need explaining.
2. Magolor: He's very popular, especially in Japan (he placed 7th in the fighter ballot), and aside from BWD he was also the face of the new resurgence of Kirby games after 2011. Magolor has appeared in or at least made cameos in almost every Kirby game since. He would have a unique moveset to go with it.
3. Marx: Marx is arguably the most famous and iconic Kirby villain. He's also one of the series' most recurring characters. If in the next Smash bros. game he made the transition from boss to a unique fighter, that would be awesome!
4. Adeline & Ribbon and/or Gooey: Although having both characters as fighters wouldn't do any harm, the goal is to have at least one character form the non-Sakurai directed Kirby games before this era. Either one would work and be unique.

 

[Captain Shades]

Okay I get it: Bandana Dee is the fourth main character. He's relevant, prominent, and popular. He lacks a bit in uniqueness, but regarding the former three qualities, he's got it down pat.

I don't disagree that Bandana Dee is the fourth main character currently. I'm just trying to argue that Bandana Dee does not deserve the big push that HAL is giving him.

Kirby, Meta Knight, and King Dedede all have very unique designs, abilities, and personalities that making someone as non-unique and personality-free as Bandana Dee the fourth main character just makes him out-of-place side by side with the other main three. Making Bandana Dee Kirby's fourth main character was a big mistake on HAL's part, and no one can argue against this.

And no, arguing that Bandana Dee deserves to be the fourth main character because... he is the fourth main character is juat begging the question.

To be fair, has HAL really pushed him? Outside of appearing in some form in all modern titles, HAL really doesn’t highlight him that much. Just look at the frequently mentioned Kirby website or Amiibo line which claim waddle Dees as main characters, not specifically Bandana Dee. BD was playable and really adored by fans after Return To DreamLand, which made him a prominent character. To compare to another ‘Forth Wheel’, Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze made a huge deal out of the playable Dixie Kong, whereas HAL just includes BD as one of three Dream Friends.

As for why he should be the 4th, well he’s popular. He was a relatively small character that got brought up as time went on, given more history and stuff to do. He fits in with the cast as he’s just a more individually designed character of a species that has played main character roles for years. Waddle Dees have always been the Toads of the Kirby franchise, as opposed to Goombas. They have personality and while there are many, they can and have easily filled in main character roles. BD was just Kirby quickly figuring out that they can have a mascot and have it be a main character, something Mario struggled with for years until Captain Toad and Toadette were given the spotlight as the unique mascots of their species.

I guess my point is, BD deserved to be a main character because he really was the evolution of concepts from 64 and Super Star. He was a Waddle Dee made into main character status, which was something 64 experimented with after Super Star gave the species individual characters with unique personalities. His inclusion also helped give other franchises something to work off of, like now Mario can have the loved Toad species be main characters without devolving them into generic colors as they realized that characters like Toadette and Captain Toad can be mascots of everything loved about the common species while still being unique. In a way, BD gives fans a playable Waddle Dee without it being a generic recolor as he does have his own ambitions, design elements, weapon, etc.

 

[Quillion]

To be fair, has HAL really pushed him? Outside of appearing in some form in all modern titles, HAL really doesn’t highlight him that much. Just look at the frequently mentioned Kirby website or Amiibo line which claim waddle Dees as main characters, not specifically Bandana Dee. BD was playable and really adored by fans after Return To DreamLand, which made him a prominent character. To compare to another ‘Forth Wheel’, Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze made a huge deal out of the playable Dixie Kong, whereas HAL just includes BD as one of three Dream Friends.

As for why he should be the 4th, well he’s popular. He was a relatively small character that got brought up as time went on, given more history and stuff to do. He fits in with the cast as he’s just a more individually designed character of a species that has played main character roles for years. Waddle Dees have always been the Toads of the Kirby franchise, as opposed to Goombas. They have personality and while there are many, they can and have easily filled in main character roles. BD was just Kirby quickly figuring out that they can have a mascot and have it be a main character, something Mario struggled with for years until Captain Toad and Toadette were given the spotlight as the unique mascots of their species.

I guess my point is, BD deserved to be a main character because he really was the evolution of concepts from 64 and Super Star. He was a Waddle Dee made into main character status, which was something 64 experimented with after Super Star gave the species individual characters with unique personalities. His inclusion also helped give other franchises something to work off of, like now Mario can have the loved Toad species be main characters without devolving them into generic colors as they realized that characters like Toadette and Captain Toad can be mascots of everything loved about the common species while still being unique. In a way, BD gives fans a playable Waddle Dee without it being a generic recolor as he does have his own ambitions, design elements, weapon, etc.

I don't get what you're arguing. First you say that HAL isn't pushing him because he doesn't appear in marketing, and then you say that HAL is giving him more characterization and prominent appearances?

 

[Opossum]

I don't get what you're arguing. First you say that HAL isn't pushing him because he doesn't appear in marketing, and then you say that HAL is giving him more characterization and prominent appearances?

I'd argue there's a difference between using a character with proven popularity and "pushing" them. In this case, it isn't "pushing" because there's no form of resistance to require a push. They're not forcing him onto the playerbase; they're putting him out there and people are responding well to it, so they keep at it.

A large part of it likely has to do with how popular the Waddle Dee species is among the fans, especially in Japan.

 

[Captain Shades]

I don't get what you're arguing. First you say that HAL isn't pushing him because he doesn't appear in marketing, and then you say that HAL is giving him more characterization and prominent appearances?

You keep acting as though HAL is responsible for his popularity because they push his inclusion on to fans, when that simply isn’t the case. He was simply a character that gained popularity and HAL responded by keeping his inclusion and slowly giving him more prominent roles.

HAL simply made him a 4th playable character and fans liked him so much that he became a main stay. HAL themselves have actually been pretty reserved when it comes to promoting BD as again he is just there or playable most of the time, and marketing never mentions him. The fan base allowed him to become the 4th member, even saying he was worthy of Smash after his one playable appearance, so HAL promotes him and gives him more stuff to do in recent titles as they know he has a fan base. BD is popular, not due to corporate advertising, but due to fans love for the series. The fan attachment that he received proved to HAL that they can do more with him and so they slowly drew him in to the 4th main character slot. I say this because you seem of the opinion that HAL just took this character that no one liked and kept pushing until people just accepted him as a main character, when it was clearly the other way around as the fans demanded him more and HAL wanted to slowly bring him up.