Sakurai and his own Kirby bias

[Iko MattOrr]

Ryu Myuutsu
I promised myself to never ever reply to you, but you insist and continue with the same attacks over and over.
I'm not really replying to you, in fact, I'm not even interested in READING that post because I really don't want to read you.
I have just seen the list of quotes, and I just want to specify my stance about those.

I can defend each one of those quotes, but it would be useless, because you don't seem to be open to read my posts in the correct way, you seem to WANT to attack me.

I just want to say that

1. I wasn't serious in saying "make the fans salty", that's the sentence you attacked me for. It was an overexageration made for fun, and you assumed that I was desperate and felt miserable for a spirit because of that sentence.
2. The part you qouted about Sakurai is MY OPINION in fact I said I DISLIKE, and disliking something IS SUBJECTIVE. You are attacking MY OPINION, not something objective, and so you don't have the right to do so. I have a reason for every word I have written in that post, yes, gambling elements and such. Because when you do the classic mode and you have to bet money (virtual in-game currency but still) in order to select the higher difficulty (that's REQUIRED to beat some challenges) and you lose for an hammer RANDOMLY fell into a CPU opponent, and you have to restart from the beginning because your intensity level dropped, that's like gambling, losing and having to retry... and in the meanwhile you lose those coins. Then there were the master and crazy orders. And offcourse, you have to deal with random if you want to complete all those Kirby Air Ride challenges (in City Trial stuff happens randomly), and the blocks in that Smash 4 mode I even forgot the name of, they fall from the sky and they are random, in order to get a record you have to hope in the RNG because skills are not enough. Etc.
3. The last quotes are taken OUTSIDE CONTEXT (just like the previous ones), they are possible case scenarios of why I think they could have excluded those spirits, and THEY ARE SPECULATION, NEITHER ME NOR YOU HAVE PROOF THAT THOSE ARE CORRECT OR WRONG, and I used those examples of Sakurai being against some changes as evidence of why it's possible that he would be against some changes to the Kirby franchise introduced by other directors. In the same case scenario I also said that it would be strange because if he was against Shimomura's games, he wouldn't have placed all those Kirby 3 spirits in the game. You are completely ignoring this observation, on purpose, just to attack me.

I'll just leave here this video for the sake of it.

EDIT: I really want to drop this, but as long as you continue making these posts where you claim that I said stuff that I never said (or I said but with a different meaning), spreading in fact misinformation about myself to the point of being defamatory (like saying that a character I like is "my waifu"), I wont stop, at the cost of risking a ban.

Ohohohohohohohoho!!

People, forgive me for this moment of childlike behavior.

And take a while to look back at your posts, they are all written in a way to provoke a reaction, they are such troll posts, and I'm not really ok with that, but apparently this is ok to the mods.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Drop the victim complex, Iko MattOrr , it makes you seem unlikable. I'm addressing your points, not attacking you. You are not getting any sympathy from me when you act like a drama queen.


1. Hey, if you say so then.

2. Wagering something of value to increase the stakes is a valid design choice. In Smash 4, its very rare that you will ever run out of coins since you earn lots of them and there are very few things to spend them on. Yes, they are required to raise the difficulty level in Classic Mode, but I was swimming in coins to the point that it never became a real issue. If you lose, you still keep most of your wagered coins anyways provided that you finish the mode.
And its not even that hard. True, bull**** will happen occasionally courtesy of the CPU's stupidly good AI in Smash 4, but is not that big of an issue in Smash Ultimate.
And the mode you are referring is Trophy Rush, which is one of several ways to obtain trophies. And why do you say this is bad? Having some elements of randomness in a game isn't unhealthy and its not even a Sakurai specific trope. I would actually say that doing away with all the randomness is actually bad. So you play a mode where trophies fall from the sky at random intervals, how is this a deal breaker again? I find it silly and petty that you deride small doses of random elements, when they aren't even the entire focus of the game and can be found in other kinds of games.

A most glaring example of a gambling element that would spring to mind is the Game Corner from Pokemon. Getting coins from there for special rewards is a real grind. And a worst offender for randomness would be pokemon's % to inflict status effects, etc. which can turn around a whole match.

3. Nah, I didn't take anything out of context. But it is true, neither you or I have any proof to decide what is wrong or not. Yet, you insist on building scenarios that point out Sakurai as the party responsible for whatever bad thing you can associate with him.

Oh, and the video was interesting. I agree with his points about the UI menu in Smash 4 (which I mentioned earlier) and Mario Maker. It also goes on saying how this is a Nintendo trend, not a Sakurai specific issue, and even praises previous menus in Smash 64 and Melee for what they were.
It also doesn't invalidate what I said earlier about Ultimate's practical design even one bit. Nice video though.

Now, if you are going to reply back, don't get emotional on me, ok? Do you think you can dial down the drama just a bit? I'm asking nicely here. If I sneeze in your direction believe me when I say that I don't mean it as an attack.

 

[osby]

Please refrain from turning arguments into personal debates. You can criticize another user's line of thought without making negative comments about them.

If you think a user is trolling, report them instead of answering to them.

 

[Boo_Destroyer]

Yeah really, you guys need to take it to PMs at this point.

Yeah, I think it's been pretty fair to every franchise that can afford the characters. Fire Emblem and Pokemon are special cases for various reasons. If anything, I'd love to see more obscure franchises represented, but that's another topic.

And I was also sure that Meta Knight and Dedede were added to Brawl because several people (myself included) wanted them in Smash. Simple as that.

 

[Buuhan]

Please refrain from turning arguments into personal debates. You can criticize another user's line of thought without making negative comments about them.

If you think a user is trolling, report them instead of answering to them.

Wow, can we just take a minute to talk about how awesome our mods are compared to other forums?
They are so much more laid back then let’s say mods on the overwatch forums, where they can ban you for even the slightest joke. So... thanks for not sucking smash boards forum mods. Keep it up.

 

[Ibrahim77]

I'm a Kirby main through and through but Kirby also consistently underperforms in the competitive scene every game after Smash 64...I don't know why Sakurai is so afraid to make his own character good.

 

[osby]

I'm a Kirby main through and through but Kirby also consistently underperforms in the competitive scene every game after Smash 64...I don't know why Sakurai is so afraid to make his own character good.

I heavily doubt that Sakurai is trying keep certain characters in certain competitive tiers.

 

[Boo_Destroyer]

I mean, there is a testing and balancing side of the team that tries to make sure no one is stronger than anyone.

 

[Mr Saturn Fanboy]

Tell that to Captain Falcon LMAO

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Tell that to Captain Falcon LMAO

Are you implying that CF is really bad or really good?

 

[TreeChopperVillager]

The Kirby Bias is probably because it was sakurai's first creation. Plus he was obviously fit for survival too so of course he would make Kirby survive galleem and Dharkon. Also, Kirby is awesome.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

The Kirby Bias is probably because it was sakurai's first creation. Plus he was obviously fit for survival too so of course he would make Kirby survive galleem and Dharkon. Also, Kirby is awesome.

The thread is about Sakurai's bias toward his own Kirby games versus modern Kirby games, not Sakurai prioritizing Kirby over other series (unless I read that wrong)

Also, Sakurai said the reason Kirby survived Galeem was because he was the only fighter with realistic means of escaping Galeem's light beams as well as being easy to play (Palutena and Bayonetta could have also survived according to him but he decided that they weren't easy enough to play compared to Kirby).

 

[Boo_Destroyer]

The thread is about Sakurai's bias toward his own Kirby games versus modern Kirby games, not Sakurai prioritizing Kirby over other series (unless I read that wrong)

Also, Sakurai said the reason Kirby survived Galeem was because he was the only fighter with realistic means of escaping Galeem's light beams as well as being easy to play (Palutena and Bayonetta could have also survived according to him but he decided that they weren't easy enough to play compared to Kirby).

Let's also not forget the fact that we start off Ultimate with the original 8 fighters. So realistically, it had to be one of them. (And one of them, Palutena and Bayonetta are not)

Besides, Mario is just a hop and a skip away from the start of World of Light (and is required before you can go anywhere else anyway), so people were just tinfoil hatting about Kirby for basically nothing.

 

[Mr Saturn Fanboy]

Are you implying that CF is really bad or really good?

oh neither, it was just a joke because Falcon has nothing but old representation. haha funny

 

[Mogisthelioma]

oh neither, it was just a joke because Falcon has nothing but old representation. haha funny

Ah. Gotcha.

 

[Boo_Destroyer]

oh neither, it was just a joke because Falcon has nothing but old representation. haha funny

Not exactly an appropriate comparison, since F-Zero hasn't even got a new game since 2004.

 

[Mr Saturn Fanboy]

Not exactly an appropriate comparison, since F-Zero hasn't even got a new game since 2004.

Yes, welcome to the joke

 

[Boo_Destroyer]

Okay, guess that flew over my head, my bad.

Anyway, while it’s true that Sakurai did create Kirby the character, where was it ever said that he created Meta Knight and Dedede? (plus Waddle Dee, Whispy Woods, and the rest)

 

[Captain Shades]

Okay, guess that flew over my head, my bad.

Anyway, while it’s true that Sakurai did create Kirby the character, where was it ever said that he created Meta Knight and Dedede? (plus Waddle Dee, Whispy Woods, and the rest)

I’m pretty sure he created Meta Knight and Dedede. He voices Dedede and the second Kirby team didn’t use Meta Knight for a long time until Amazing Mirror as only Sakurai titles included him.

 

[Boo_Destroyer]

But where was this ever confirmed? He may have voiced Dedede in some games, but that doesn't mean he created him from the start (Kirby, whom he did create, was always voiced by Makiko Ohmoto). And maybe the creative force of those other games just didn't feel like using Meta Knight (he appeared in some other spinoff titles at the time too). In fact, we don't actually know who was responsible for what other characters.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I wonder what kind of homage do modern Kirby games pay to Smash?

Also, I don't know if it's just me but I can't help but think of Kirby and HAL Laboratory whenever I think about Smash.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I wonder kind of homage do modern Kirby games pay to Smash?

Here
Kirby, Fire Emblem, and Zelda all have a notable amount of Smash references in their games.

 

[Boo_Destroyer]

I’m pretty sure he created Meta Knight and Dedede. He voices Dedede and the second Kirby team didn’t use Meta Knight for a long time until Amazing Mirror as only Sakurai titles included him.

You still didn't provide any proof about this, and it sounds like you're just making things up about him based on hearsay alone.

He may have created (and designed?) Kirby himself, but this doesn't mean he created everything else in the series. From what I've gathered, he doesn't actually draw beyond simple doodles, and doesn't specialize in designing any other characters.

But seriously, there are people who will have you believe that he handled literally everything for this series (designed every single character on his own and all that), all the way down to the lore. It’s disrespectful and dismissive to HAL Laboratory. (Heck, they don’t even make that big of a deal out of him when talking about the development and history of Kirby games.)

 

[Captain Shades]

You still didn't provide any proof about this, and it sounds like you're just making things up about him based on hearsay alone.

He may have created (and designed?) Kirby himself, but this doesn't mean he created everything else in the series. From what I've gathered, he doesn't actually draw beyond simple doodles, and doesn't specialize in designing any other characters.

But seriously, there are people who will have you believe that he handled literally everything for this series (designed every single character on his own and all that), all the way down to the lore. It’s disrespectful and dismissive to HAL Laboratory. (Heck, they don’t even make that big of a deal out of him when talking about the development and history of Kirby games.)

Both wikis for the respective characters claim he designed and created them. Kirby is his series, so I think it’s safe to assume he created the main 3 characters otherwise he really wouldn’t have had a series to pitch.

I personally think you are downplaying Sakurai’s role in the series which is just as bad as those who really prop him up as a god. Kirby is based around his design philosophies and ideas, and HAL really didn’t take charge until after his absence with the release of Super Star.

I also hate to bring this up again, but pre-2010 it was pretty obvious which games Sakurai worked on and didn’t, as Super Star was clearly more mechanically sound than future releases which took a more adventure approach to design. It seemed that Kirby without Sakurai was more of a jumbled mess of gimmicky ideas and spin offs for awhile till they got the ball rolling again with RTDL. I think going through Kirby’s history clearly shows that Sakurai has had a bigger hand in the series than just creator, to the point in which HAL seemed pretty lost without him or with him in standard advisor roles.

 

[Boo_Destroyer]

Both wikis

Nope. Gonna have to stop you there. These things aren't "sources".

And I'll say this as many times as it takes: Kirby is owned by HAL, not Sakurai. And always was from the start. He doesn't even follow @Kirby_JP on Twitter either.

And Meta Knight and Dedede weren't actually established as "main" characters in the series until a lot later into it.

I personally think you are downplaying Sakurai’s role in the series which is just as bad as those who really prop him up as a god. Kirby is based around his design philosophies and ideas, and HAL really didn’t take charge until after his absence with the release of Super Star.

More like you're just downplaying what others who have worked on the series are capable of, and how important their input is. Let's not forget that even Iwata was instrumental to getting the series rolling.

I also hate to bring this up again, but pre-2010 it was pretty obvious which games Sakurai worked on and didn’t, as Super Star was clearly more mechanically sound than future releases which took a more adventure approach to design. It seemed that Kirby without Sakurai was more of a jumbled mess of gimmicky ideas and spin offs for awhile till they got the ball rolling again with RTDL. I think going through Kirby’s history clearly shows that Sakurai has had a bigger hand in the series than just creator, to the point in which HAL seemed pretty lost without him or with him in standard advisor roles.

And again, you make it sound like this is anything more than just your obsession with him. He only lead a few Kirby games: Dream Land, Adventure, Super Star, and Air Ride. (And Nightmare in Dream Land)
In fact, hardly anyone knew who he was until Brawl was announced.

Dream Land 2, 3, and K64 were deliberately made to be different from standard Kirby fare ("Standard Kirby fare" wasn't yet fully defined at the time either). Amazing Mirror and Squeak Squad weren't spin-offs, they were mainline titles in the series. And they proved that HAL still had their bearings at the time. Okay, it then took a remake of Super Star to jump-start Kirby into where it is now, but still.

Here, they talk about what Kirby GCN went through all the time until it ended up as Return to Dream Land. And this had nothing to do with Sakurai leaving, as far as I can see.

Besides, hate to break it to you, but if Sakurai were still in charge of Kirby today, these games would actually be...rubbish compared to what we're getting now. I mean, do you really think he'd let there be Dream Friends in Star Allies? So screw that timeline, we're in the best one right now.

 

[osby]

Besides, hate to break it to you, but if Sakurai were still in charge of Kirby today, these games would actually be...rubbish compared to what we're getting now. I mean, do you really think he'd let there be Dream Friends in Star Allies? So screw that timeline, we're in the best one right now.

I'd actually like to see the proof of this. It seems like a very baseless statement.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

I'd actually like to see the proof of this. It seems like a very baseless statement.

If Smash isn't a valid example... just look at Air Ride.
While not inherently a bad game, I have issues with the way it was handled. Absolutely nobody from the Dark Matter trilogy even makes an appearance in that game; instead, the cast of Air Ride is sprinkled with enemies such as TAC, Dyna Blade, and Plasma Wisp. Many of the power-ups were ones features in Super Star. Most of the music is taken from the Japanese version of Sakurai's Kirby anime. But more importantly, a lot of the structures of Air Ride creeped their way into Smash; City Trial, the enemy choices, the music, and the power-ups are all comparable.
Something tells me Sakurai would keep a lot of the Smash mentalities in Kirby if he was still in charge. I hope that's not true, since I do not like the idea with being stingy with one's direction on a series, but unless they re-hire him to take Kirby in a different direction (which I hope they don't) there won't be an easy way to tell.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

Besides, hate to break it to you, but if Sakurai were still in charge of Kirby today, these games would actually be...rubbish compared to what we're getting now. I mean, do you really think he'd let there be Dream Friends in Star Allies? So screw that timeline, we're in the best one right now.

I wouldn't be that extreme and say they would be rubbish, but I'm sure there is an high probability that I wouldn't like them, and fanservice such as the Dream Friends would have never happend.

I'm glad Kumazaki is the director right now and I'm very happy about what they did with the Dream Friends (easily the best thing of the game).

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I'd actually like to see the proof of this. It seems like a very baseless statement.

Well obviously there's no proof, this entire thread is about speculation. But the point being is that considering the majority of Kirby content in Smash comes from the games Sakurai designed (Super Star holding a bigger piece of the pie than anyone else), it's probable that Sakurai may feel less comfortable in using the assets he didn't design if he were to continue directing Kirby games.

Like I said, speculation.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

If Smash isn't a valid example... just look at Air Ride.
While not inherently a bad game, I have issues with the way it was handled. Absolutely nobody from the Dark Matter trilogy even makes an appearance in that game; instead, the cast of Air Ride is sprinkled with enemies such as TAC, Dyna Blade, and Plasma Wisp. Many of the power-ups were ones features in Super Star. Most of the music is taken from the Japanese version of Sakurai's Kirby anime. But more importantly, a lot of the structures of Air Ride creeped their way into Smash; City Trial, the enemy choices, the music, and the power-ups are all comparable.
Something tells me Sakurai would keep a lot of the Smash mentalities in Kirby if he was still in charge. I hope that's not true, since I do not like the idea with being stingy with one's direction on a series, but unless they re-hire him to take Kirby in a different direction (which I hope they don't) there won't be an easy way to tell.

...None of the issues you mentioned can be considered inherent game design flaws with detrimental gameplay effects. So far, those are merely subjective gripes with the creative choices of characters, music, etc.

I also fail to see why it's so bad that some features from City Trial made it into Smash as Smash Run, when that was one of the most liked and missed features from Smash 3DS. Your whole post can be summarized in "I have a problem with how they used this character/music/power up instead of {insert character/music track/power up that I like}"

I wouldn't be that extreme and say they would be rubbish, but I'm sure there is an high probability that I wouldn't like them, and fanservice such as the Dream Friends would have never happend.

I'm glad Kumazaki is the director right now and I'm very happy about what they did with the Dream Friends (easily the best thing of the game).

Considering your stance against valid game design choices that have been tried and tested by developers and players for years, I believe you when you say that you wouldn't like them.

Now, I love current Kirby games but I also feel you guys romanticize them too much and act as if they were flawless under the current leadership. Take Star Allies as an example. I also love what they did with Dream Friends, but I don't love the friend pedestal mechanics. I feel they are detrimental to the experience and halt the pace of the game as it makes you stop to collect three friends, then it forces you into a state that you have little control over. The Friend Star is alright, but Train, Ball and Bridge limit you to a single action to traverse an arbitrary portion of terrain. The game would be better off without them.

Stage design also suffers a bit. Return to Dreamland and Planet Robobot had good stage design with memorable set pieces, but I felt Star Allies felt a bit short in that department. Probably a side effect of having to accommodate 4 player gameplay, which is unfortunate. That doesn't mean I want the game director's head on a platter though; I want them to use that as a learning experience instead. It's silly to think of a timeline of Kirby games being bad under Sakurai because he left the series 13 ago, specifically because he wanted to stop creating sequels of it, and also because the current designers aren't flawless as I've pointed out.

With that said, I still think Star Allies is a good game. specially after updates. I agree that Dream Friends is the best thing of the game.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

Your whole post can be summarized in "I have a problem with how they used this character/music/power up instead of {insert character/music track/power up that I like}"

...this statement is not constructive criticism. It's just a simplified restatement treated as an insult. Please don't try my patience.

...but to go with what you are saying, I've heard that Smash Run wasn't a very good interpretation of City Trail due to a lack of customization and character interaction, but it's true that I've never tried it. If Ultimate expanded on Smash Run, I'd get a chance to experience it for myself, just like those great stages I never got to play.

Part of Air Ride's issue is that, apart from the novelty of City Trial, the game is a bit boring. There's only so much you can do with one button and accidentially eating an enemy when you need to charge can get annoying. However, I happen to also be big on presentation, which Air Ride still lacks. Subjective or not, I want an experience that reminds me of why I like Kirby, which is why I have never been a fan of using Kirby clones in place of characters.

Edit: I got off-topic. The point I was trying to make was that there's a lot of things in Air Ride that have carried over, and that concerns me, since that could mean Sakurai is obstinate and changes very little. But again, I don't want to believe that.

 

[Boo_Destroyer]

Now, I love current Kirby games but I also feel you guys romanticize them too much and act as if they were flawless under the current leadership. Take Star Allies as an example. I also love what they did with Dream Friends, but I don't love the friend pedestal mechanics. I feel they are detrimental to the experience and halt the pace of the game as it makes you stop to collect three friends, then it forces you into a state that you have little control over. The Friend Star is alright, but Train, Ball and Bridge limit you to a single action to traverse an arbitrary portion of terrain. The game would be better off without them.

Stage design also suffers a bit. Return to Dreamland and Planet Robobot had good stage design with memorable set pieces, but I felt Star Allies felt a bit short in that department. Probably a side effect of having to accommodate 4 player gameplay, which is unfortunate. That doesn't mean I want the game director's head on a platter though; I want them to use that as a learning experience instead. It's silly to think of a timeline of Kirby games being bad under Sakurai because he left the series 13 ago, specifically because he wanted to stop creating sequels of it, and also because the current designers aren't flawless as I've pointed out.

With that said, I still think Star Allies is a good game. specially after updates. I agree that Dream Friends is the best thing of the game.

Fair points, fair points. Dream Friends were great, but Star Allies as a game is far from perfect. I do remember those Friend Bridge parts being annoying. It's also clear that Dream Friends were added specifically for the series' 25th anniversary. It strikes me as a once-in-a-lifetime deal that's just too good to come back again.

But the more I think about it, the more I start to realize... Since Return to Dream Land, all these new Kirby games that have been coming out have all been using the exact same engine and all each time. And it's looking like they're now only playing the fanservice card to make up for that.

And my points earlier were just that Sakurai was and is not the sole authority on what makes Kirby, Kirby. Half of the things I hear like "he despises the Dark Matter trilogy" and "he designed every character and world in the series" (when he's really not that much of an artist) are all just silly conspiracy theories and flat-out untrue. And all it does is discredit and insult the rest of HAL and their efforts into shaping the franchise, then and now. And Iwata.

 

[Captain Shades]

Sorry for missing some bits/ being delayed but I should respond.

Nope. Gonna have to stop you there. These things aren't "sources".

And I'll say this as many times as it takes: Kirby is owned by HAL, not Sakurai. And always was from the start. He doesn't even follow @Kirby_JP on Twitter either.

And Meta Knight and Dedede weren't actually established as "main" characters in the series until a lot later into it.

To comment on this, Kirby being owned by HAL does not make them the creators. That’s like saying Nintendo is the creator of Mario. Yes these big companies played a part in developing the idea, but Sakurai/ Miyamoto still created the original concept that got the ball rolling. Without Sakurai, the series wouldn’t exist as it was his design philosophies of making games easy and his want for simple designs that created Kirby.

Also Sakurai wanted to distance himself from Kirby and let the team lose to develop what they please, so he most likely doesn’t follow Kirby for that reason, or you know, maybe he really doesn’t use Twitter often. I don’t see him not following a Twitter of a franchise he left years ago as a big indicator that he’s supposedly lying.

More like you're just downplaying what others who have worked on the series are capable of, and how important their input is. Let's not forget that even Iwata was instrumental to getting the series rolling.

I am not down playing the role of HAL. The studio is incredibly talented, but I feel they lack direction at times. While Sakurai didn’t create everything within Kirby, he certainly was a major contributor and definitely pushed the series in ways that I don’t feel HAL would have been able to without him. He gave the series direction, which I feel was significantly lost in the wake of his absence, until Kirby got back on track with RTDL.

To go over...
Sakurai’s last game was Super Star which was fast paced, had copy abilities that were essentially the ground work for Smash movesets, having a use for every direction in both air and land. Many of the Dark Matter Trilogy and “middle” games had none of these things, essentially taking a step backwards from Super Star. It felt like HAL was essentially trying to regain what SS had for quite a few years as games like Amazing Mirror and Squeak Squad clearly started going back to the formula. There was also that weird period of time in which Kirby essentially became a test monkey for Nintendo ideas or hardware with stuff like Canvas Curse and Epic Yarn seeming to pop up more frequently than actual main line titles. It seemed that Kirby just kind of lacked direction on what to do for the series. Now, none of the games mentioned are bad, but I do feel like they show a sort of disconnect. I should probably stress again, HAL is talented, but I do think they need a sort of leader, which it seems like they have now, otherwise Kirby feels kind of regressive mechanically, and emphasis seems misplaced in having some sort of gimmick that doesn’t pan out quite right and become forgotten for maybe HAL to significantly rework later. (Mixed copy abilities would be my example as they were a fun concept, but kind of lacked in practicality a good amount of the time and easily became really awful or OP, but HAL did clean up the concept sort of within Squeak Squad and definitely in Star Allies.)

And again, you make it sound like this is anything more than just your obsession with him. He only lead a few Kirby games: Dream Land, Adventure, Super Star, and Air Ride. (And Nightmare in Dream Land)
In fact, hardly anyone knew who he was until Brawl was announced.

This point really isn’t valid, you don’t have to be well known to have created something well known. What if I asked you who Superman’s creator was, would you really be able to answer without looking it up. The point is, being well known doesn’t indicate if you are the creator or not.

To continue with your point, I am not obsessed with him, I actually criticized him a lot in the early parts of this thread, but I have to give him credit where credit is due. Those first 3 games you mentioned set the ground work for the entire series, so if he lead them than he does have a huge role overall as he created the base for the house.

Here, they talk about what Kirby GCN went through all the time until it ended up as Return to Dream Land. And this had nothing to do with Sakurai leaving, as far as I can see.

The effects of his leave can still be present without being mentioned as the developers seemed to have a hard time fully realizing an idea and figuring out a way to push the series forward. Sakurai was clearly heavily involved with Kirby, I mean this is the same control freak that posed and acted out cutscenes for Brawl so he could have them be created perfectly, I doubt he wouldn’t have a major hand in Kirby. The problematic development cycle had nothing to do with Sakurai directly, but I do think losing such a huge hand does create issues, as Sakurai was the biggest pusher for following through and seeing a vision till the end and really evolving Kirby. To give credit to HAL, they did get it in the end and honestly I do believe that their direction has surpassed Sakurai, it took awhile, but they did make perfect Kirby title.

Besides, hate to break it to you, but if Sakurai were still in charge of Kirby today, these games would actually be...rubbish compared to what we're getting now. I mean, do you really think he'd let there be Dream Friends in Star Allies? So screw that timeline, we're in the best one right now.

Funny enough, I agree. HAL is better off without him right now as they clearly have a passionate director and Kirby has been hitting it out of the park since 2009’s Super Star Remake. Star Allies may have been a bit of a stumble, but I feel Kirby’s future is brighter than ever and HAL has convinced me that they will take Kirby into a new and innovative direction. Sakurai would have probably restricted them TBH as he does have some stern rules, so I’m glad HAL can operate independently, maybe even expand the cast. I give a lot of respect to Sakurai, he created the franchise and gave HAL the groundwork to succeed, but I must say that HAL is an impressive company, but I do feel that they just lacked focus/direction for a few years after Sakurai left. Ultimately, HAL is great and I never meant to come off as demeaning towards them, heck my favorite titles were created without Sakurai, but I do think you were unfair in acting like Sakurai didn’t play a pretty major role in Kirby, and even more so that he didn’t even create what are clearly his characters. Sakurai left a big impact and should be commended along with HAL.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Saw this on the internet, thought I'd throw it here.

Spoiler: Kirby newcomers in Smash

I see the point the author is making but I'd replace Zelda with Fire Emblem. And Metroid and DK fans had to push for ages to get the newcomers they wanted.

I have to agree that Kirby games would probably be significantly worse if Sakurai was still designing them, but not "rubbish." But it's no surprise that the series has done much better without him in charge.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I see the point the author is making but I'd replace Zelda with Fire Emblem. And Metroid and DK fans had to push for ages to get the newcomers they wanted.

Still bleeding out of their hearts, huh?

I have to agree that Kirby games would probably be significantly worse if Sakurai was still designing them, but not "rubbish." But it's no surprise that the series has done much better without him in charge

Kirby has been doing good because it has capable developers working on a tried and tested formula, not specifically because Sakurai left. Kirby games also happen to be safer in general and their quality is more consistent because the main series gets less experimental and don't try to reinvent themselves unlike Mario and Zelda.
It's dumb when anti-Sakurai simpletons pretend that the Kirby series became good the moment he stepped out of HAL. And it's silly to speculate of them becoming worse under Sakurai in a different timeline because A) Being Kirby games you would still eat them up, so you wouldn't be lamenting how much better they would be under someone not named Sakurai; and B) You don't have a point of comparison, you are comparing games that exist vs games that don't exist. How in the hell do you know you are going to like or hate something that doesn't even exist?

 

[Iko MattOrr]

I think nobody likes the game gimmicks such as super abilities, hypernova, the robobot armor and the friend pedestal.
The robobot armor has been accepted more because it offered more variety, with the possibility to copy abilities with it... but in fact it's just another of those gimmicks.

Though IMO this is not fault of the developers of Kirby... I think they had to put those gimmicks for marketing reasons, in order to advertise the game.
The same stuff happend with the mega-mushroom in New Super Mario Bros on DS, or with the huge egg in Yoshi's New Island, and many other gimmicks in other Nintendo games.

Spoiler: It's not like Sakurai has never done this as well

I think this is something that comes from Nintendo, and still a shadow of the casual oriented game design direction that they were focusing on since the DS and Wii.
I'm sure that sooner or later this will change, especially with the Switch aiming at a slighty different type of public. Just look at Link's Awakening, it's just a 2D Zelda game, a regular one, no motion/touch/other gimmicks seen so far... they advertised it for what it actually is (and some people, especially new generations, didn't like it, before even trying it); Unfortunatelly, it seems that those gimmicks are still required in order to sell a game, but I hope this will change soon.

About Sakurai, as I said so many times, I don't think games would be worse, but different, in a way that I don't like (personal, subjective).

Sakurai is very good at making games that are a commercial success; he understands what the potential buyers want, and designs games with that in mind; the problem is that he doesn't like to make sequels (as he said in many interviews and statements), so when he does a new game, it will probably be completely different than the previous one (compare Kirby's Adventure to Kirby Superstar, or the original Kid Icarus to Uprising).
He also puts epicness in the games, and a lot of spectacle, that contributes to his games becoming commercial succeses.
My problem is that I don't like this style... I prefer less spectacle, but more depth, more lore, more artistic/emotional values, more hidden meanings and more consistency, something that according to the existing releases, Sakurai apparently doesn't care much of (but the current developers of Kirby do).
Aside of that, stuff such as

• intensity levels that force you to spend virtual money (in-game, no real value but still) in order to select the highest difficulty, and that make you lose those money and kick you to a lower difficulty level if you do an error, you are unlucky, or you haven't memorized the timing and moves of a boss yet (Master Core), having to restart from the beginning if you want to stay in the desired difficulty level.
• huge achievement tables with crazy requests that heavily push the time required to complete the game by a lot, often way over 100 hours (Smash), and much of those achievements involve doing repetitive tasks and/or being lucky (so perform repetitive tasks until the luck attempt happens).
• That style of menues where the priority is defined by the dimension of the button instead of the order; they were good in some games (Meteos) but now the thing is overused, even when it's unfitting; He may have not designed those menues personally, but the fact is that all of his recent games use that style of menues and it became a distinctive trait of his style, so much that people expect them if a game is made by Sakurai.

are all things that maybe aren't bad per se, but I heavily dislike, and they would probably be in a Kirby game developed by Sakurai, since they are (all together or just some of them) in all the games he developed since Kirby Air Ride (arguably Melee, to some extent).

Also Sakurai seems to prefer RPGs to platformers (speculation), he prefers to remove platforming elements form the games he works on, in favor of RPG or combat elements*. I'm the opposite, I'm a fan of platformers and I quite dislike fighting games and beat-em-up/hack-n-slash games (Smash is the only exception because it's an hybrid game and plays like a platformer).

Finally, add that he seems to have some bias for the games he developed personally, and usually neglects the other games in the series, and you have why I'm happy that Sakurai is not the director of Kirby anymore, and I wouldn't mind someone else taking over Smash as well.

*

Spoiler: *

Evidence of this is how he transformed Kirby from platformer to a sort of hybrid platformer/beat-em-up in Superstar (and eventually to an actual fighting game in Smash), and how he transformed Kid Icarus from platformer to shooter/hack-n-slash sorta with heavy focus on rpg-like story in Uprising.
Before someone says modern Kirby games are like Superstar, Superstar has much shorter and simpler levels (I mean more generic, not easier) that focus a lot more on fighting enemies and miniboss/boss rooms (or puzzles) rather than on platforming (enemies are the focus); modern Kirby games kept and improved the Superstar movesets, but at the same time they have longer (and more linear) levels that focus more on traditional platforming, also re-introducing simpler and more static enemies that work as obstacles (level layout is the focus).
Before someone says Smash is a fighting game with platforming made by sakurai so it's not true that he removes platforming elements from games, think about the fact that the gameplay of Smash comes from the gameplay of Kirby Superstar, and that the concept behind Smash is about transforming a platformer (kirby) into a fighter, not the other way. The concept of launching the opponent out of screen also comes from a scrapped idea of Kirby's Dream Land 1 for GB, so it's possible that Smash is the true form of what the Kirby series would have been if Sakurai was still in charge of it, just with Kirby characters alone instead of all the crossovers. Think of the Subspace Emissary or Smash Run to get an idea of the level design.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I'm pretty sure that Hypernova and the Robobot Armor were well received as they add to the gameplay on another level. Friend pedestals on the other hand are a detriment because they take away control from you.

I doubt that stuff like that was forced on the developers by Nintendo, but it was a decision made by the developers.

• intensity levels that force you to spend virtual money (in-game, no real value but still) in order to select the highest difficulty, and that make you lose those money and kick you to a lower difficulty level if you do an error, you are unlucky, or you haven't memorized the timing and moves of a boss yet (Master Core), having to restart from the beginning if you want to stay in the desired difficulty level.
• huge achievement tables with crazy requests that heavily push the time required to complete the game by a lot, often way over 100 hours (Smash), and much of those achievements involve doing repetitive tasks and/or being lucky (so perform repetitive tasks until the luck attempt happens).
• That style of menues where the priority is defined by the dimension of the button instead of the order; they were good in some games (Meteos) but now the thing is overused, even when it's unfitting; He may have not designed those menues personally, but the fact is that all of his recent games use that style of menues and it became a distinctive trait of his style, so much that people expect them if a game is made by Sakurai.

While I kind of understand the first point, second and third points seem arbitrary and silly.

Smash achievement boards aren't that huge and the actions require to obtain them aren't random or repetitive. There is a variety of tasks you have to perform and none of them are luck based, or at least most of them aren't as far as I can remember. I completed Ultimate's achievement board well under a hundred hours of gameplay, and most of those challenges are completed by playing the game normally without even trying. You even get plenty of gold hammers to unlock achievements that you don't want to unlock. And if I remember correctly, you don't own the game yet, so you wouldn't know if what you say applies for Ultimate.

And I don't understand the gripe with the menus. What exactly do you mean by 'defined by the dimension of the button instead of the order'? What order should it be? And are you saying that the menus are shaped like the buttons on the controller? Because that's not the case. Your explanation is kind of hard to understand.
In a previous post, I wrote a lengthy explanation of why the menu works, from a practical and aesthetic point of view. Or you can watch RelaxAlax take on the Smash Ultimate menu. Even if you aren't fond of his content that video is worth a watch. It's important to have functional and visually pleasing menu, so I'm genuinely puzzled in what wrongs you see in that kind of design.



And you are making a stretch by comparing Sakurai design choices to RPG elements. At least this doesn't apply to Superstar, except for that one boss fight.

You can't call your post 'evidence' when you are admitting right off the bat that it is speculation. Having Beat em up or hack and slash elements with a story does not make a game an RPG. A story alone is not enough to make a game RPG-like, Plenty of action games like Shooters have a story without being defined as an RPG. I feel you are misinterpreting a lot of genres in the video game industry and mixing some of their concepts.

And fun fact about Uprising is that Sakurai probably wasn't the one who came up with idea to turn the game into a shooter/hack&slash hybrid because Nintendo originally contracted Factor 5 to work on a Kid Icarus revival. That's right, the guys who made a bunch Star Wars shooting games were initially called to handle the franchise and they tossed around a lot of ideas that were more radical than what Sora came up with. Several Factor 5 games have flight combat similar to the one found in Uprising. It didn't get past the prototype stage.
The project was later handed to Sakurai, and you can definitely see that some of those ideas from Factor 5 made it in.

 

[Opossum]

I'm pretty sure that Hypernova and the Robobot Armor were well received as they add to the gameplay on another level. Friend pedestals on the other hand are a detriment because they take away control from you.

I doubt that stuff like that was forced on the developers by Nintendo, but it was a decision made by the developers.



While I kind of understand the first point, second and third points seem arbitrary and silly.

Smash achievement boards aren't that huge and the actions require to obtain them aren't random or repetitive. There is a variety of tasks you have to perform and none of them are luck based, or at least most of them aren't as far as I can remember. I completed Ultimate's achievement board well under a hundred hours of gameplay, and most of those challenges are completed by playing the game normally without even trying. You even get plenty of gold hammers to unlock achievements that you don't want to unlock. And if I remember correctly, you don't own the game yet, so you wouldn't know if what you say applies for Ultimate.

And I don't understand the gripe with the menus. What exactly do you mean by 'defined by the dimension of the button instead of the order'? What order should it be? And are you saying that the menus are shaped like the buttons on the controller? Because that's not the case. Your explanation is kind of hard to understand.
In a previous post, I wrote a lengthy explanation of why the menu works, from a practical and aesthetic point of view. Or you can watch RelaxAlax take on the Smash Ultimate menu. Even if you aren't fond of his content that video is worth a watch. It's important to have functional and visually pleasing menu, so I'm genuinely puzzled in what wrongs you see in that kind of design.



And you are making a stretch by comparing Sakurai design choices to RPG elements. At least this doesn't apply to Superstar, except for that one boss fight.

You can't call your post 'evidence' when you are admitting right off the bat that it is speculation. Having Beat em up or hack and slash elements with a story does not make a game an RPG. A story alone is not enough to make a game RPG-like, Plenty of action games like Shooters have a story without being defined as an RPG. I feel you are misinterpreting a lot of genres in the video game industry and mixing some of their concepts.

And fun fact about Uprising is that Sakurai probably wasn't the one who came up with idea to turn the game into a shooter/hack&slash hybrid because Nintendo originally contracted Factor 5 to work on a Kid Icarus revival. That's right, the guys who made a bunch Star Wars shooting games were initially called to handle the franchise and they tossed around a lot of ideas that were more radical than what Sora came up with. Several Factor 5 games have flight combat similar to the one found in Uprising. It didn't get past the prototype stage.
The project was later handed to Sakurai, and you can definitely see that some of those ideas from Factor 5 made it in.

Not to mention an "RPG-like story" just doesn't make sense at all. RPGs have all sorts of stories and, as you said, the story doesn't define a game's genre. Saying Sakurai is biased toward RPGs and using Kid Icarus Uprising as an example for "its RPG-like story" is even more hilarious when you remember Return to Dream Land, a non-Sakurai Kirby game, had one of the single most cliché RPG stories of "go collect the MacGuffin pieces, restore them, get betrayed, fight a final boss who has a god mode."

 

[Deleted member]

The reason we don’t have characters like Goku or Naruto is because Sakurai feels like Kirby:Right Back At Ya! is the definitive anime experience ever created.

And since the main character of that anime is already in Smash, he strongly believes that nobody else outside of the Pokémon fighters deserves to represent an anime in Smash as long as Kirby is kept in. For him, Kirby IS anime in person.

This is just a joke, please don’t take this seriously.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I think nobody likes the game gimmicks such as super abilities, hypernova, the robobot armor and the friend pedestal.

Aaaaaaaaaaand that's wrong. I loved the super abilities and friend pedestal.