Sakurai's recent article on competitive play got translated

[Senario]

You're not a jerk for caring about his health. You're a jerk for not wanting Sakurai to make more Smash games. Whether he wants to make more should be his own choice. He shouldn't be forced to quit making Smash games because of one arrogant person on the internet who thinks he speaks for everyone who plays Smash and knows what's best for it. (Hint: that's you) Notice how I only bolded the terms everyone, community, and game and didn't bold health? See, I only bolded the examples of you being a jerk and your terrible reasons for wanting him replaced. Health is hardly one of them, so pay attention next time.



That's right, he sure hates the competitive community. That's why random tripping is still in the game, there's no For Glory mode, the speed isn't faster than Brawl, and Smash Wii U has no GCN controller support. Oh wait....

lol For glory, nobody is going to use that competitively it isn't for the competitive community. The gamecube controller adapter is NOT something you can credit to Sakurai, He has no charge over hardware he just makes the game. Nintendo is the one who made it and they deserve thanks, not Sakurai.

Also...You do realize you are being a jerk to me which isn't exactly "better". Two wrongs don't make a right Jerkwad.

Ah, why am I not surprised to see this? Can I say as a more casual player who has been dreading playing online a bit because of people like you guys and your 6-8 inputs a second that I really appreciate the fact that Sakurai is still keeping this series easy and open for all? And that I also appreciate that he wants to give you guys options as well.

I don't know who you are talking about, I can't do 6-8 inputs a second, or at least I don't think I can. Maybe 4 because a second is a long time. Short hop, air move(second air move if you are marth), fast fall, L cancel. And really they are on different parts of the controller so it isn't all that difficult.

That said, Nobody is saying the game shouldn't be accessible. Simplifying the things is key, not taking them out. Unlike your mental image we still value simplicity. Or at least I do, The simplicity of Anime fighters controls like Blazblue and guilty gear being 4 buttons is great. Nothing too complicated but a lot of depth. I would say Marvel since it is also 4 buttons but then I'd be lying because I try to play Dante. Bold cancelling into a ground move is odd.

 

[Pyra]

I wonder if another person's translation would use the word "maniacs".
Don't think it's meant to be taken as offensively as everyone is taking it, you freakin maniacs.

 

[wafflini]

guys.

How are you taking maniac as an insult? As soon as i read that i knew it was poor translating. lol

C'mon, were better than this.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

INCOMING FOOD FOR THOUGHT!

I find it interesting how Sakurai views Smash Bros as an "action game". Not a fighting game, not a party game, but an action game. You know, like Kid Icarus Uprising or Monster Hunter. Actually after giving those two examples, I have no idea what he meant by that lol. Maybe it was a mistranslation?

For those of you that are getting mad at this article, read the last part:

The translation of this is really weird, just look at that first sentence especially the "large/wide but deep is utmost" bit. But, the way I take it, he wants the game to have easy-to-understand mechanics, but deep gameplay. I.E. he wants the game to have a low skill floor but a high skill ceiling. Hmm... sounds like another game I know of.

Also, don't get too hung up on the whole "maniac players" thing. Japanese is widely different from English. For instance, they have gender neutral pronouns in their language where as we do not. As such, there are words/phrases that are simply hard to translate into English, while still making sense. I'm sure Sakurai didn't mean to piss anyone off when he wrote that article, and he wouldn't crap on any particular section of the fanbase. I mean he says right there to "feel free to set the rules to controlled environments that are a test of skill".

The part that gets me is where he says "The reaction feels good to be popular with the vocal minority". I didn't know he felt that way. I always assumed that he wished to please us not because he actually likes us being happy, but rather he felt obligated to appeal to all sections of the Smash fanbase. "Maniacs" included. Make of this what you will.

I honestly don't see how competitive play affects casual play when competitive essentially turns off a lot of things or doesn't use stages that have things that hurt you.

I have this sentiment towards the first three entries in the series. However, I think that's going to change in regards to Smash 4. Two words; For Glory. There will no doubt be casual players jumping into For Glory (a game mode with a ruleset that whilst not an accurate reflection of competitive play, still shares a highly similar model) and getting bodied by some random player who is more familiar with that style of gameplay. Will For Glory bridge the gap? We'll have to wait and see, but either way, it's now possible for casual players to play in a competitive-styled environment which may cause stupid Miiverse posts complaints.

 

[Crimnonin]

Sakurai's main argument against Melee is that it was too technical. I can see that. L-cancelling didn't really add any enjoyment to the game, and wavedashing could be difficult for many people to do. I know it's difficult for me. That's why I played Melee without those things. I didn't need advanced techniques to enjoy the game. Not every Melee player plays at a pro level, or goes to a tournament.

So why do I prefer Melee to Brawl? Because even without the advanced techniques, the mechanics feel far more satisfying to me. It's fast and fun, and I can enjoy it even at a low technical level. Now that's not the case for everyone, but it's what kept me invested in this franchise for the past ten years. This is the only fighting game that I have ever invested time into. By definition, I am a casual when it comes to fighting games.

Unfortunately, Sakurai seems to live in a bubble. When he sees people who play Melee, he sees "maniacs" who want to turn the Smash series into a traditional fighting game (like I dunno, Street Fighter, Marvel Vs. Capcom, w/e fighting game you can think of.) He thinks that only those people play Melee, and so he tries to appeal to the "unseen" player.

Well by definition, the "unseen" player cannot be seen. So how does Sakurai claim to see them? What about people like me? What about people in between the spectrum of casual and competitive? People who can prefer Melee, and have practically no interest in advanced techniques. According to this article, I am a part of the most "unseen" demographic of all.

Just because I don't like advanced techniques, does not mean I want the next game to be "slower." I don't want to ask myself, "Do I want carpal tunnel, or do I want to swim through pudding?" I would prefer neither. It's a shame Sakurai will never "see" this part of the Smash community.

Man, this just ruined my night. I hope that, at the very least, the Club Nintendo rewards are good this month.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

guys.

How are you taking maniac as an insult? As soon as i read that i knew it was poor translating. lol

C'mon, were better than this.

I think this thread is proving otherwise.

 

[Senario]

INCOMING FOOD FOR THOUGHT!

I have this sentiment towards the first three entries in the series. However, I think that's going to change in regards to Smash 4. Two words; For Glory. There will no doubt be casual players jumping into For Glory (a game mode with a ruleset that whilst not an accurate reflection of competitive play, still shares a highly similar model) and getting bodied by some random player who is more familiar with that style of gameplay. Will For Glory bridge the gap? We'll have to wait and see, but either way, it's not possible for casual players to play in a competitive-styled environment which may cause stupid Miiverse posts complaints.

That is fair, I suppose they'll just have to realize it is like a ranked queue for any competitive game =/ not much way around it. It will affect their play but in the end it is up to them if they want to go into that mode.

Edit: Psst INCOMING BOWSER NERFS CAUSE MIIVERSE. Confirmed on stream.

 

[chronomantic]

I think Sakurai should answer with his already-legendary comeback 'have you ever made a game?' to every overzealous Melee fan telling him what to do.

 

[Jumpman84]

lol For glory, nobody is going to use that competitively it isn't for the competitive community. The gamecube controller adapter is NOT something you can credit to Sakurai, He has no charge over hardware he just makes the game. Nintendo is the one who made it and they deserve thanks, not Sakurai.

Also...You do realize you are being a jerk to me which isn't exactly "better". Two wrongs don't make a right Jerkwad.

Wow... you really have no clue on how making a game works. The GCN adapter is useless if the game isn't designed for it. So not only does the adapter have to exist, but Sakurai has to take extra development time to make sure the game recognizes the controllers in the adapter and that it maps the controller options perfectly without any issues. So yes, we should thank Sakurai for allowing us to have a play option that the game wasn't intended to have.

For Glory not for competitive players? That's a laugh. It's no items and Final Destination only. I think we can cut him a little slack for not making it Fox only. It should be fun for everyone after all...

Sorry if you feel like I'm a "jerkwad", but frankly, I'm getting sick and tired of your crap. Not just in this topic, but in countless others on this board where all you pretty much do is badmouth Sakurai and this game and force your opinions on others. If you're going to be ungrateful, that's your business. So stay out of everyone else's.

 

[Senario]

I think Sakurai should answer with his already-legendary comeback 'have you ever made a game?' to every overzealous Melee fan telling him what to do.

And I should respond, "That is a poisoning the well argument and doesn't address any argument except discrediting your opponent".

I've gone over this before, both Sakurai and that player were wrong. The player was Rude, and so was Sakurai who had a bad argument. Also, it was in jest also could be bad translating but I find that hard to believe with Sakurai. So they were both wrong.

The consensus that the conversation was "In jest" but honestly it feels like an exchange between a bad egg and a dismissive developer.

 

[Deleted member]

By the way, as someone highly familiar with Japanese jargon and phrases, let me clear up something for you.

When Sakurai says "maniac", he doesn't mean that you're crazy and obsessed for playing the way you play.

"Maniac Players" is just another way that they say "Hardcore Players". Players you practice and play at a higher and harder or vastly different level and length than others. That's all.

He's not trying to insult you. If anything, that's the translator's fault for not...well...doing his job and changing the wording up a bit so that people could clearly understand what he meant.

Quoted for truth.

Stop being butthurt over a word, ya damn maniacs.

 

[wafflini]

For Glory not for competitive players? That's a laugh. It's no items and Final Destination only. I think we can cut him a little slack for not making it Fox only. It should be fun for everyone after all...

One thing that i really want to mention that i dont see anywhere else, is that the japanese meta is final destination only. So yes, he did make it for competitive players. He may just not be very aware of our scene.

 

[Crimnonin]

One thing that i really want to mention that i dont see anywhere else, is that the japanese meta is final destination only. So yes, he did make it for competitive players. He may just not be very aware of our scene.

It would be interesting to know some more elements of Japanese competitive play. I read somewhere that they prefer Brawl. Is that true?

 

[KMB23]

I understand that, and I'm fine with simplifying the aspects. As long as that is what they are doing, simplifying and not taking them out. L cancelling is pretty needless as long as landing lag is low across the board. Wavedashing, well arguing it's benefits and downsides is kinda pointless since we know it'll never come back.

Prog is right that the game needs a few tweaks to give us the options but I'm skeptical that Sakurai would allow any of it. As he has said, nothing gets into the game without his go ahead. Nintendo would have to have some serious input for them to actually use their E3 notes. I'd argue for a tiny bit more hitstun tbh but it is hard to without seeing what lower landing lag and movement options like dash dancing would do.

Also, sorry I don't see turnaround cancelling being a really big deal, it'll be cool. But I feel like it'll be something that you can do not something that'll be mobility defining if you know what I mean.

Edit: Holy crap does NOBODY read my msgs? everybody thinks that somehow I want it exactly like melee. *points to above post*. I didn't say anything about the speed, though it would be fine if we had some mobility options really nothing too bad about the speed right now.

SPEAK FOR URSELF, JERK :'O

 

[Blazeth]

I am not reading through this thread so I'll put it this way (sorry if it's already been said).

If you want Melee to be Smash 4 then no.
Melee can keep on being the game for tournaments.

 

[Jumpman84]

And I should respond, "That is a poisoning the well argument and doesn't address any argument except discrediting your opponent".

I've gone over this before, both Sakurai and that player were wrong. The player was Rude, and so was Sakurai who had a bad argument. Also, it was in jest also could be bad translating but I find that hard to believe with Sakurai. So they were both wrong.

The consensus that the conversation was "In jest" but honestly it feels like an exchange between a bad egg and a dismissive developer.

Except Sakurai is perfectly right in this instance. It is a legitimate question. There is no "poisoning the well" as you keep falsely claiming. Playing a game does not make you an automatic expert on how a game should be made. He's just letting the player know that balancing is not as easy as he thinks it is and takes a lot of effort, just like making a game. Besides, Sakurai already has a team working on the balance. To let someone come in and rebalance it as he sees fit would ruin the countless weeks that team has put in.

In the end, he did say that he would consider getting the player's input on balance, which can be helpful to balance to get feedback from testers. Of course, the balance team would still be making the adjustments, not the player itself.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

I've gone over this before, both Sakurai and that player were wrong. The player was Rude, and so was Sakurai who had a bad argument. Also, it was in jest also could be bad translating but I find that hard to believe with Sakurai. So they were both wrong.

The consensus that the conversation was "In jest" but honestly it feels like an exchange between a bad egg and a dismissive developer.

Dude, even if Sakurai wasn't kidding, that's not rude. Go ask any other fighting game director "Can I balance your game with you?" and they would say the same thing. Game design is way harder than most people it think it is. It's not something just anyone can understand and be good at.

 

[Crimnonin]

Except Sakurai is perfectly right in this instance. It is a legitimate question. There is no "poisoning the well" as you keep falsely claiming. Playing a game does not make you an automatic expert on how a game should be made. He's just letting the player know that balancing is not as easy as he thinks it is and takes a lot of effort, just like making a game. Besides, Sakurai already has a team working on the balance. To let someone come in and rebalance it as he sees fit would ruin the countless weeks that team has put in.

In the end, he did say that he would consider getting the player's input on balance, which can be helpful to balance to get feedback from testers. Of course, the balance team would still be making the adjustments, not the player itself.

That entire exchange was unfortunate. The person who asked that question makes the rest of the competitive community look horrible. It makes me realize how fortunate we are to have people like D1 and Prog, who can treat the matter professionally.

 

[Egg-Off the Conquerer]

It really bothers me that he thinks melee wasn't fun for casuals because of AT. I didn't even know what wavedashing was until after brawl came out, and me and my friends still played well over a million matches. I just really wish that he didn't think "in order to appeal to a wide audience I must take things away from the hardcore crowd" because it's just not true.

Btw! マニアック (maniac) means essentially hardcore gamer or dedicated fan

 

[Crimnonin]

It really bothers me that he thinks melee wasn't fun for casuals because of AT. I didn't even know what wavedashing was until after brawl came out, and me and my friends still played well over a million matches. I just really wish that he didn't think "in order to appeal to a wide audience I must take things away from the hardcore crowd" because it's just not true.

You and me both. So many competitive vs. casual debates, and WE'RE the ones getting shafted.

 

[wafflini]

It would be interesting to know some more elements of Japanese competitive play. I read somewhere that they prefer Brawl. Is that true?

I dont know much about it at all, though i wish i did. And yes, ive heard that the japanese prefer brawl to melee as well, though i dont know how valid those claims are.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

That entire exchange was unfortunate. The person who asked that question makes the rest of the competitive community look horrible. It makes me realize how fortunate we are to have people like D1 and Prog, who can treat the matter professionally.

Didn't the guy come on here to say he was just making a joke?

Sounds like the audience thought he was being a **** though.

You know what's funny? In denying the "accusation" some of you coming off a little maniacal.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

One thing that i really want to mention that i dont see anywhere else, is that the japanese meta is final destination only. So yes, he did make it for competitive players. He may just not be very aware of our scene.

I've heard this a few times, yet this page http://www.ssbwiki.com/Japanese_tier_list says their stage list consists of three stages; Final Destination, Battlefield and Smashville. So basically, that would make it like the "western" format, just without the Counterpick system/stages. Is this page wrong?

 

[Crimnonin]

I dont know much about it at all, though i wish i did. And yes, ive heard that the japanese prefer brawl to melee as well, though i dont know how valid those claims are.

Seems like Sakurai doesn't really think about international competitive communities. For Glory mode seems to be developed mainly with Japanese competitive players in mind.

 

[Senario]

Except Sakurai is perfectly right in this instance. It is a legitimate question. There is no "poisoning the well" as you keep falsely claiming. Playing a game does not make you an automatic expert on how a game should be made. He's just letting the player know that balancing is not as easy as he thinks it is and takes a lot of effort, just like making a game. Besides, Sakurai already has a team working on the balance. To let someone come in and rebalance it as he sees fit would ruin the countless weeks that team has put in.

In the end, he did say that he would consider getting the player's input on balance, which can be helpful to balance to get feedback from testers. Of course, the balance team would still be making the adjustments, not the player itself.

You're so mad.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well

Yes, he is poisoning the well. He is discrediting his opponent and anything further they can say. Do we ridicule political analysts and say they have no say in politics because they haven't run for office? What about actual business analysts (not the gaming type)? Do we say they have no say in anything because they don't run a business? No, but they are EXPERTS in their field...clearly experience has to do with it because they haven't participated in the activity themselves.

As I've said, the player in question was in the wrong as well due to his wording. But Sakurai isn't any better, I don't think he is taking into consideration input from the top levels of play to help balance the game from the top down like any normal competitive game. Nintendo took notes at E3 but how will they use them? Will they be able to use them?

So many people and fanboys like to defend everything to the death and not notice the problems that are there. Even I don't defend melee that hard. And Melee is one of my favorite games of all time, it has it's issues like tech skill being needless in some cases. Or really hidden mechanics that even some experienced players might miss. Such as Wiggling out of hitstun, allows you to get out earlier (but usually not before you are already too far for a follow up due to human reaction time). My brother who is 10x the player I am in the game didn't even know you could do that.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

It really bothers me that he thinks melee wasn't fun for casuals because of AT. I didn't even know what wavedashing was until after brawl came out, and me and my friends still played well over a million matches. I just really wish that he didn't think "in order to appeal to a wide audience I must take things away from the hardcore crowd" because it's just not true.

Btw! マニアック (maniac) means essentially hardcore gamer or dedicated fan

How do you get that impression? Maybe you have a better idea since you seem to know Japanese, but nothing in that article made it sound like he's going out of his way to nerf ATs. I mean, Smooth Landing (L-cancelling as we call it) is an official thing in 64 and Melee; information about it was even on the website for those games.

I doubt he hates ATs, he just doesn't want it to be to the point where it's tech-crazy like Melee was.

 

[BridgesWithTurtles]

I take no offense to the "maniac" translation, whether intentional or not.

Am I a maniac? Very well, then I am a maniac. I am large, I contain multitudes.

 

[Crimnonin]

Didn't the guy come on here to say he was just making a joke?

Sounds like the audience thought he was being a **** though.

You know what's funny? In denying the "accusation" some of you coming off a little maniacal.

Did he? I couldn't find a video, so I mainly relied on Smashboards and Smash Reddit for that information.

Also, what do you mean by "accusation"?

 

[Haiiro]

Sakurai's main argument against Melee is that it was too technical. I can see that. L-cancelling didn't really add any enjoyment to the game, and wavedashing could be difficult for many people to do. I know it's difficult for me. That's why I played Melee without those things. I didn't need advanced techniques to enjoy the game. Not every Melee player plays at a pro level, or goes to a tournament.

So why do I prefer Melee to Brawl? Because even without the advanced techniques, the mechanics feel far more satisfying to me. It's fast and fun, and I can enjoy it even at a low technical level. Now that's not the case for everyone, but it's what kept me invested in this franchise for the past ten years. This is the only fighting game that I have ever invested time into. By definition, I am a casual when it comes to fighting games.

Unfortunately, Sakurai seems to live in a bubble. When he sees people who play Melee, he sees "maniacs" who want to turn the Smash series into a traditional fighting game (like I dunno, Street Fighter, Marvel Vs. Capcom, w/e fighting game you can think of.) He thinks that only those people play Melee, and so he tries to appeal to the "unseen" player.

Well by definition, the "unseen" player cannot be seen. So how does Sakurai claim to see them? What about people like me? What about people in between the spectrum of casual and competitive? People who can prefer Melee, and have practically no interest in advanced techniques. According to this article, I am a part of the most "unseen" demographic of all.

Just because I don't like advanced techniques, does not mean I want the next game to be "slower." I don't want to ask myself, "Do I want carpal tunnel, or do I want to swim through pudding?" I would prefer neither. It's a shame Sakurai will never "see" this part of the Smash community.

Man, this just ruined my night. I hope that, at the very least, the Club Nintendo rewards are good this month.

Yeah, I agree with this. I never used advanced techniques like wavedashing in Melee, but even so, Melee remains one of my favorite games to this date. But Brawl? I got bored with Brawl after a month. The speed was just too slow, and I didn't like the "floaty" physics either. It just made the game boring.

That being said, however, once I got used to Brawl's physics, Brawl was much easier to control than Melee, so I'm not opposed to something between the two, which is what Sakurai's going for.

 

[Senario]

I take no offense to the "maniac" translation, whether intentional or not.

Am I a maniac? Very well, then I am a maniac. I am large, I contain multitudes.

To me it is more of his dismissal rather than the use of the word maniac. In essence the rest of his interview with a tacked on "oh but I still consider you guys" message.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

You're so mad.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well

Yes, he is poisoning the well. He is discrediting his opponent and anything further they can say. Do we ridicule political analysts and say they have no say in politics because they haven't run for office? What about actual business analysts (not the gaming type)? Do we say they have no say in anything because they don't run a business? No, but they are EXPERTS in their field...clearly experience has to do with it because they haven't participated in the activity themselves.

As I've said, the player in question was in the wrong as well due to his wording. But Sakurai isn't any better, I don't think he is taking into consideration input from the top levels of play to help balance the game from the top down like any normal competitive game. Nintendo took notes at E3 but how will they use them? Will they be able to use them?

So many people and fanboys like to defend everything to the death and not notice the problems that are there. Even I don't defend melee that hard. And Melee is one of my favorite games of all time, it has it's issues like tech skill being needless in some cases. Or really hidden mechanics that even some experienced players might miss. Such as Wiggling out of hitstun, allows you to get out earlier (but usually not before you are already too far for a follow up due to human reaction time). My brother who is 10x the player I am in the game didn't even know you could do that.

The difference being that those analysists have training in the field or access to resources to understand it. What experience do you have in game design?

@ Crimnonin the whole bit about maniacs.

 

[Crimnonin]

Yeah, I agree with this. I never used advanced techniques like wavedashing in Melee, but even so, Melee remains one of my favorite games to this date. But Brawl? I got bored with Brawl after a month. The speed was just too slow, and I didn't like the "floaty" physics either. It just made the game boring.

That being said, however, once I got used to Brawl's physics, Brawl was much easier to control than Melee, so I'm not opposed to something between the two, which is what Sakurai's going for.

Maybe I'm being too harsh on Sakurai. I just wish he could respond to opinions a bit more...moderate. Then I wouldn't feel as if people like me are completely ignored in this competitive vs. casual Smash debate.

 

[Senario]

The difference being that those analysists have training in the field or access to resources to understand it. What experience do you have in game design?

When did this become a question about ME balancing the game? Isn't that also attacking my credibility and not any actual argument I would've come up with?

If I were to write to you five paragraphs of "well this and that reason with those evidences" it WOULD NOT MATTER because you stopped my argument before I could start it with a logical fallacy. Anything I possibly could say would be met with "oh but you aren't a credible source"

Let me be clear, I'm not saying I should balance the game. Heck I like the game but I don't like it that much to do it as a job. All I am saying is that similar to how those people have training in their craft a top level smash player would know or have a general idea of what works for balance and what doesn't at a top level. People like Zero and M2k stand out in the crowd though there are others. They don't have to be the sole determiners of balance but their input should be HEAVILY considered due to their deep understanding of the game at a top level. Lots of companies for many different competitive things do this, they hire OR ASK some of their best players to provide input on their new product or content.

 

[wafflini]

I've heard this a few times, yet this page http://www.ssbwiki.com/Japanese_tier_list says their stage list consists of three stages; Final Destination, Battlefield and Smashville. So basically, that would make it like the "western" format, just without the Counterpick system/stages. Is this page wrong?

Huh, your right. I googled it and found out they have a total of 6 (3 are counterpicked).

My bad, i guess i should really research these things before i attempt to relay them. Still, even though i am not a fan of final destination only in For Glory, saying that it was not an attempt to please competitive players is ridiculous.

You're so mad.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well

Yes, he is poisoning the well. He is discrediting his opponent and anything further they can say.

Have you ever heard of the fallacy fallacy? It is when you completely ignore what someone says to you because they use a logical fallacy, even though what they say may still have merit.

 

[Senario]

Huh, your right. I googled it and found out they have a total of 6 (3 are counterpicked).

My bad, i guess i should really research these things before i attempt to relay them. Still, even though i am not a fan of final destination only in For Glory, saying that it was not an attempt to please competitive players is ridiculous.



Have you ever heard of the fallacy fallacy? It is when you completely ignore what someone says to you because they use a logical fallacy, even though what they say may still have merit.

Fair enough but I do think that in this case it is dismissive to say you cannot have input because you haven't made a game. Again, there are plenty of other examples of people who have input on their field but do not actually participate in the main attraction of that field (politics is my favorite example).

I suppose the response to that is "No, I have not made the game but I believe that players at the top level of play understand the game to a point that should be acceptable for you to consider their input when balancing the game." Seriously, I'm not even saying Sakurai needs to take all the pointers and follow them exactly, just listen and consider that these people have experience with the game to a level that many of us cannot comprehend.

 

[Egg-Off the Conquerer]

How do you get that impression? Maybe you have a better idea since you seem to know Japanese, but nothing in that article made it sound like he's going out of his way to nerf ATs. I mean, Smooth Landing (L-cancelling as we call it) is an official thing in 64 and Melee; information about it was even on the website for those games.

I doubt he hates ATs, he just doesn't want it to be to the point where it's tech-crazy like Melee was.

He says that melee and other fighting games greatest flaw is that they essentially have tok many AT's

I agree in a sense, its hard to enjoy street fighter without knowing how to shoryuken and tekken is super unfun if you can't juggle but melee was extremely fun and accessible with 0 AT knowledge. I don't think we need wavedashing back and I think that L-canceling is stupid but his dismissive attitude toward competitive players kind of hurts. Smash bros is one of those rare, rare occasions where you can please everyone

 

[TheKk-47]

Yeah, I agree with this. I never used advanced techniques like wavedashing in Melee, but even so, Melee remains one of my favorite games to this date. But Brawl? I got bored with Brawl after a month. The speed was just too slow, and I didn't like the "floaty" physics either. It just made the game boring.

That being said, however, once I got used to Brawl's physics, Brawl was much easier to control than Melee, so I'm not opposed to something between the two, which is what Sakurai's going for.

I feel the same way as you guys. I didn't even know what L-cancelling or wavedashing was until I started to play PM 2 years ago. I enjoyed Melee and Brawl both just as much, with my sistersand friends. Items on or off, tech skill or no tech skill, I still enjoy and enjoyed Smash. Seriously, if you want to go to a tournament, learn how to use the advanced skills. No reason to limit the competitive players who have fun by playing 1-on-1 with no items, just like how he shouldn't limit the casuals. This doesn't have to be a game where one side is forced to have the same skill as the other, this can just be like a pool with a deep end and shallow end(referring to that Reddit post from a while ago). Let's be honest here, there will always be a divide between "maniacs" and casuals, it just doesn't have to be a hostile one.

 

[Egg-Off the Conquerer]

Huh, your right. I googled it and found out they have a total of 6 (3 are counterpicked).

My bad, i guess i should really research these things before i attempt to relay them. Still, even though i am not a fan of final destination only in For Glory, saying that it was not an attempt to please competitive players is ridiculous.



Have you ever heard of the fallacy fallacy? It is when you completely ignore what someone says to you because they use a logical fallacy, even though what they say may still have merit.

Just so you know dude, most fighting game companies hire pro players as testers AND designers. Including namco bandai. So despite what sakurai said, some of his design team members are likely ex pros

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

When did this become a question about ME balancing the game? Isn't that also attacking my credibility and not any actual argument I would've come up with?

If I were to write to you five paragraphs of "well this and that reason with those evidences" it WOULD NOT MATTER because you stopped my argument before I could start it with a logical fallacy. Anything I possibly could say would be met with "oh but you aren't a credible source"

Let me be clear, I'm not saying I should balance the game. Heck I like the game but I don't like it that much to do it as a job. All I am saying is that similar to how those people have training in their craft a top level smash player would know or have a general idea of what works for balance and what doesn't at a top level. People like Zero and M2k stand out in the crowd though there are others. They don't have to be the sole determiners of balance but their input should be HEAVILY considered due to their deep understanding of the game at a top level. Lots of companies for many different competitive things do this, they hire OR ASK some of their best players to provide input on their new product or content.

They have experience playing a 13 year old game and it's fan made sequelish version. Smash 4 is already making efforts to incorporate new ideas and change things. The pros could tell you how to fix one game. I don't think they could tell you how to perfectly make a new one. And then the question becomes whether what they want is doable within the boundaries of the engine and the code.

And, um, not to be mean to the guys from the invitational, but after sdcc it seems like a lot of what they were saying was a little off.

My point is that maybe there should be a little less paranoia and "constructive critique" and more patience and understanding that maybe your vision of the game won't match up with the guy who has to build it.

 

[Deleted member]

MELEE WAS A GREAT CASUAL GAME AS WELL!!!!!!

This. To be honest, his assertion (which is shared by many at Nintendo) that casual/new players "can't keep up" with Melee comes off as a bit condescending. Melee sold extremely well and was loved by all different types of players.

And this is coming from someone that neither plays Smash competitively nor cares about those mechanics being in the new game. But c'mon.