Sakurai's recent article on competitive play got translated

[Senario]

They have experience playing a 13 year old game and it's fan made sequelish version. Smash 4 is already making efforts to incorporate new ideas and change things. The pros could tell you how to fix one game. I don't think they could tell you how to perfectly make a new one. And then the question becomes whether what they want is doable within the boundaries of the engine and the code.

And, um, not to be mean to the guys from the invitational, but after sdcc it seems like a lot of what they were saying was a little off.

My point is that maybe there should be a little less paranoia and "constructive critique" and more patience and understanding that maybe your vision of the game won't match up with the guy who has to build it.

I cited Zero and M2k for very specific reasons. Both of these players have been known to play ALL VERSIONS OF SMASH and understand it on a far better level than most can claim. It isn't just "Melee or Project M only" they understand how the game works in general and to deny that they do would be pretty far out there since they play all games at a high level. (well I haven't seen M2k play 64 but dang it has been a while since I've seen any 64 besides isai ripping players a new one)

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Sakurai shouldn't be allowed to make this game anymore.

Oh Boo-****ing-hoo! "Sakurai isn't catering to my needs! He needs to be kicked off! How dare a game's creator explain why he made a game the way he did and not in the way I want it! I had nothing to do with the game's creation, but I am so important that I should get to decide how the game should be played!"

It's people like you that give the rest of the tournament players a bad name.

 

[Crimnonin]

I feel the same way as you guys. I didn't even know what L-cancelling or wavedashing was until I started to play PM 2 years ago. I enjoyed Melee and Brawl both just as much, with my sistersand friends. Items on or off, tech skill or no tech skill, I still enjoy and enjoyed Smash. Seriously, if you want to go to a tournament, learn how to use the advanced skills. No reason to limit the competitive players who have fun by playing 1-on-1 with no items, just like how he shouldn't limit the casuals. This doesn't have to be a game where one side is forced to have the same skill as the other, this can just be like a pool with a deep end and shallow end(referring to that Reddit post from a while ago). Let's be honest here, there will always be a divide between "maniacs" and casuals, it just doesn't have to be a hostile one.

At the end of the article, Sakurai mentioned "large/wide but deep" being very important. He definitely does seem to understand the value that gameplay mechanics can add to a game. Even if advanced techniques are not in, competitive players might still find a reason to continue playing for long periods of time if mechanics changes speed up the pace of the game and add combo potential.
This would be important, especially if they are considering DLC.

So in other words, there is still hope.

 

[Jumpman84]

You're so mad.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well

Yes, he is poisoning the well. He is discrediting his opponent and anything further they can say. Do we ridicule political analysts and say they have no say in politics because they haven't run for office? What about actual business analysts (not the gaming type)? Do we say they have no say in anything because they don't run a business? No, but they are EXPERTS in their field...clearly experience has to do with it because they haven't participated in the activity themselves.

First, you're assuming that Sakurai sees the player as his opponent, which is completely ridiculous. Second, you also assume that his intention is to discredit the player, which is simply not true. It may have unintentionally came off that way, but it is definitely not the case. He was asking a legitimate question related to his inquiry, essentially interviewing him for the job. If he has experience in game design, that puts him in a great position. If not, well, maybe he could elaborate on why Sakurai should hire him. Perhaps the player has experience in another area that Sakurai hadn't thought about. But it never got that far since the player was supposedly asking in jest (and wasted his question on it, too).

If you think that's "poisoning the well", then I would start to wonder how your job interviews go. When they ask for your resume or inquire about your level of previous experience, do you accuse them of being rude and trying to discredit you? Somehow I don't think it'd go over too well...

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Huh, your right. I googled it and found out they have a total of 6 (3 are counterpicked).
My bad, i guess i should really research these things before i attempt to relay them. Still, even though i am not a fan of final destination only in For Glory, saying that it was not an attempt to please competitive players is ridiculous.

Turns out the source for SSBWiki is a thread here on Smashboards, which doesn't list any counterpicks. Also note how the poster makes it sound as if Japanese players are incredibly conservative people and just went "3 neutral stages bam!" right off the bat with no desire to ever expand the list. I don't know much (if anything) about Japanese culture so this mindset may not seem strange to some people, but to me it is surprising. You can find it here: http://smashboards.com/threads/japanese-tier-list.316518/

 

[AzureFlame4]

It really bothers me that he thinks melee wasn't fun for casuals because of AT. I didn't even know what wavedashing was until after brawl came out, and me and my friends still played well over a million matches. I just really wish that he didn't think "in order to appeal to a wide audience I must take things away from the hardcore crowd" because it's just not true.

Btw! マニアック (maniac) means essentially hardcore gamer or dedicated fan

I think you, like many others, are missing the entire point he was making. He's not trying to take away things from the hardcore crowd. He's just trying to allow the hardcore crowd to grow. Everyone is just assuming he is just catering to casuals, but instead he is taking away that ridiculous tech barrier so the casuals can become hardcores if they so choose. Personally the insane tech barrier is why I never got into melee competitively. I do however hope to get into Smash 4 competitively and the article was everything I wanted. While I can agree that they might be dumbing it down too much, I don't see it as them dismissing the competitive community.

 

[Senario]

First, you're assuming that Sakurai sees the player as his opponent, which is completely ridiculous. Second, you also assume that his intention is to discredit the player, which is simply not true. It may have unintentionally came off that way, but it is definitely not the case. He was asking a legitimate question related to his inquiry, essentially interviewing him for the job. If he has experience in game design, that puts him in a great position. If not, well, maybe he could elaborate on why Sakurai should hire him. Perhaps the player has experience in another area that Sakurai hadn't thought about. But it never got that far since the player was supposedly asking in jest (and wasted his question on it, too).

If you think that's "poisoning the well", then I would start to wonder how your job interviews go. When they ask for your resume or inquire about your level of previous experience, do you accuse them of being rude and trying to discredit you? Somehow I don't think it'd go over too well...

Look, I'm done with you. You just want to defend sakurai for everything and will argue semantics to do it.

If you feel the need to attack me and my "job interviews" I think that just speaks volumes about how pointless it is to deal with you. You clearly do not understand the argument at hand if you feel the need to attack me over it. I would say have a wonderful day, but that would be insincere. Maybe good talk? Nah that's even worse. I'll think about it some more.

 

[Egg-Off the Conquerer]

They have experience playing a 13 year old game and it's fan made sequelish version. Smash 4 is already making efforts to incorporate new ideas and change things. The pros could tell you how to fix one game. I don't think they could tell you how to perfectly make a new one. And then the question becomes whether what they want is doable within the boundaries of the engine and the code.

And, um, not to be mean to the guys from the invitational, but after sdcc it seems like a lot of what they were saying was a little off.

My point is that maybe there should be a little less paranoia and "constructive critique" and more patience and understanding that maybe your vision of the game won't match up with the guy who has to build it.

Thats why you dont have pros "make" your game, you just have them participate on the design team like every other fighting game franchise

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

I cited Zero and M2k for very specific reasons. Both of these players have been known to play ALL VERSIONS OF SMASH and understand it on a far better level than most can claim. It isn't just "Melee or Project M only" they understand how the game works in general and to deny that they do would be pretty far out there since they play all games at a high level. (well I haven't seen M2k play 64 but dang it has been a while since I've seen any 64 besides isai ripping players a new one)

M2K from what I've heard would probably be a fabulous beta tester, and I admit to not knowing much about ZeRo beyond his recent achievements. But could they design the game? I don't know. Could they build or balance? I don't know. Their input may be valuable, but you have to remember that it's based on older games and a few hours of hands on time.

Hugs says everyone agreed that samus sucked. People are showing now how good she is.
DJNintendo (I think) says Bowser is weak. Cue sdcc.
Those 6 melee elitists at my gamestop ******* about the game and how they think that dash dancing is objectively good. I even said that I felt that the blast zones are too far out. And now people are showing why things are the way they are.

Too many people are seeing Smash 4 through the eyes of the veteran. They are trying to play it like Melee, like PM, Like Brawl. And while some thing carry over it's clear that that older style of play will only get you so far.

So... can we please just wait 5 weeks and see what reality is before declaring Sakurai is ruinig it and that we could do better?

 

[Senario]

Thats why you dont have pros "make" your game, you just have them participate on the design team like every other fighting game franchise

This is what I've been saying and people are ignoring me or attacking me lol.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I cited Zero and M2k for very specific reasons. Both of these players have been known to play ALL VERSIONS OF SMASH and understand it on a far better level than most can claim. It isn't just "Melee or Project M only" they understand how the game works in general and to deny that they do would be pretty far out there since they play all games at a high level. (well I haven't seen M2k play 64 but dang it has been a while since I've seen any 64 besides isai ripping players a new one)

And we can still say for truth that they hadn't played the game enough to know how it works. I don't understand how this "too much landing lag" garbage still goes around when almost every character in the playable demo cast (heck, seemingly the entirety of the demo cast with the possible exception of Marth) has at least one auto-cancelling or fully lagless aerial and several others also have impressively low landing lag. (All of Fox's aerials are low-lag or auto-cancelling if placed right!) And on top of that, even some of the laggy aerials still have combo potential if performed into the ground. For example, someone here on the boards once posted that Pikachu's UAir, despite relatively laggy landing, apparently is a true combo into UTilt.

 

[Egg-Off the Conquerer]

I think you, like many others, are missing the entire point he was making. He's not trying to take away things from the hardcore crowd. He's just trying to allow the hardcore crowd to grow. Everyone is just assuming he is just catering to casuals, but instead he is taking away that ridiculous tech barrier so the casuals can become hardcores if they so choose. Personally the insane tech barrier is why I never got into melee competitively. I do however hope to get into Smash 4 competitively and the article was everything I wanted. While I can agree that they might be dumbing it down too much, I don't see it as them dismissing the competitive community.

I get his sentiment but I strongly disagree with it

 

[Senario]

And we can still say for truth that they hadn't played the game enough to know how it works. I don't understand how this "too much landing lag" garbage still goes around when almost every character in the playable demo cast (heck, seemingly the entirety of the demo cast with the possible exception of Marth) has at least one auto-cancelling or fully lagless aerial and several others also have impressively low landing lag. (All of Fox's aerials are low-lag or auto-cancelling if placed right!) And on top of that, even some of the laggy aerials still have combo potential if performed into the ground. For example, someone here on the boards once posted that Pikachu's UAir, despite relatively laggy landing, apparently is a true combo into UTilt.

Well you could say that about anybody really "They haven't played it enough". That is why any input you take from them has to accompany them being brought on for feedback on a current build of the game. A lot of companies do this, bring on some of the top players for feedback on what is working and what doesn't. Asking their input goes hand in hand with giving them something to give input on, not an outdated demo but a current build.

But I'm sure that at least if you were to give M2K the game and it's current build for a day or so he would figure out a lot more and have some great insights and input/feedback to provide for the game. Even more if he has somebody like Zero playing with him, I've heard they are good friends and both are really experienced in all smash games.

Edit: again, this isn't asking them to balance the game themselves. It is asking for their thoughts and FEEDBACK. You don't have to follow what they say, but you do have to consider it and test it heavily.

 

[Jumpman84]

Look, I'm done with you. You just want to defend sakurai for everything and will argue semantics to do it.

If you feel the need to attack me and my "job interviews" I think that just speaks volumes about how pointless it is to deal with you. You clearly do not understand the argument at hand if you feel the need to attack me over it. I would say have a wonderful day, but that would be insincere. Maybe good talk? Nah that's even worse. I'll think about it some more.

You're the one who started this argument by making baseless accusations. If you feel like you're being "attacked", well newsflash: I'm just doing to you what you're doing to Sakurai. If you don't like it, then maybe you should stop attacking others. "Treat others the way you want to be treated." and all that jazz.

 

[TheKk-47]

At the end of the article, Sakurai mentioned "large/wide but deep" being very important. He definitely does seem to understand the value that gameplay mechanics can add to a game. Even if advanced techniques are not in, competitive players might still find a reason to continue playing for long periods of time if mechanics changes speed up the pace of the game and add combo potential.
This would be important, especially if they are considering DLC.

So in other words, there is still hope.

Yeah, there is still hope. I think he misunderstands competitive players and even casual players. He thinks competitive players want Smash to be a traditional fighting game and that it's their way or the highway. And he thinks casuals don't like it when the skill ceiling is high because they feel as if they can't keep up(ignoring Melee casuals who had no problems not knowing or not caring, or not going to tournaments.

 

[wafflini]

Just so you know dude, most fighting game companies hire pro players as testers AND designers. Including namco bandai. So despite what sakurai said, some of his design team members are likely ex pros

I know that, did something i say make it seem as though i did not? Lol

Also, there are rumours of pros being hired to help balance sm4sh. I never cared enough about it to look into it, though im sure if you were curious someone else could enlighten you.

Turns out the source for SSBWiki is a thread here on Smashboards, which doesn't list any counterpicks. Also note how the poster makes it sound as if Japanese players are incredibly conservative people and just went "3 neutral stages bam!" right off the bat with no desire to ever expand the list. I don't know much (if anything) about Japanese culture so this mindset may not seem strange to some people, but to me it is surprising. You can find it here: http://smashboards.com/threads/japanese-tier-list.316518/

I googled and found a few places say they had three counterpicks. I personally arent that crazy about only 3(or 6) stages, but to each their own.

 

[TheKk-47]

This. To be honest, his assertion (which is shared by many at Nintendo) that casual/new players "can't keep up" with Melee comes off as a bit condescending. Melee sold extremely well and was loved by all different types of players.

And this is coming from someone that neither plays Smash competitively nor cares about those mechanics being in the new game. But c'mon.

I honestly can't agree with this more. He just ignores the casuals who enjoyed and are still enjoying Melee. If casuals want to keep up with the pros that bad they should learn the techs, he shouldn't dumb down the game for casuals. Casuals should learn or stay playing with items or without techs, no one is forcing them to go to tournaments.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

And we can still say for truth that they hadn't played the game enough to know how it works. I don't understand how this "too much landing lag" garbage still goes around when almost every character in the playable demo cast (heck, seemingly the entirety of the demo cast with the possible exception of Marth) has at least one auto-cancelling or fully lagless aerial and several others also have impressively low landing lag. (All of Fox's aerials are low-lag or auto-cancelling if placed right!) And on top of that, even some of the laggy aerials still have combo potential if performed into the ground. For example, someone here on the boards once posted that Pikachu's UAir, despite relatively laggy landing, apparently is a true combo into UTilt.

I really don't want to argue (cbb today), but I feel like I should point out, autocancelling was in both Melee and Brawl (dunno about 64). In Melee the only move that couldn't be autocancelled was DK's forward aerial. In Brawl it was that move again and I think one of Ganondorf's. Autocancelling is nothing new. However, its relevance in Smash 4 might be. In Melee, autocancelling often had less lag than L-Cancelling, however it was horribly impractical because it could only be performed after (and before but that's not relevant) the hitboxes of the move have taken place, unlike L-Cancelling which could be performed at any time in the move's duration. The gravity and fast-falling nature of the game compounded this issue. In Brawl, it wasn't very useful because the general floatiness of the game meant that a lot of characters could actually complete an aerial before landing, if they didn't fast fall.

I think what I'm getting at is, if autocancelling is to play a big influence on all levels of play, then the characters need to have moves with a duration that allows them to often land in the autocancel window. So let's say I do a short hop with Fox and use my back aerial at around the apex of my hop and then just let myself drift down and I just so happened to land during the autocancel window. That would be good in my opinion. The timing and input is clearcut - use at apex of short hop, don't fast fall.

In contrast, it's hard to grasp autocancelling if say I had to... Use the aerial about 2/3s of a second after starting my jump and then start fast falling about 12 frames before I touch the ground so that I'll land juuuuuuuuuuuust in time for the autocancel. That sort of thing is confusing for anyone who doesn't study frame data and difficult for pretty much everyone ever due to such a bizarre method of operation.

(Paragraphs 2 and 3 are hypotheticals, of course. I don't actually know Fox's or any other character's autocancel timings.)

I think Smash 4's physics might lead to more natural autocancel timings. Here's hoping!

 

[Senario]

You're the one who started this argument by making baseless accusations. If you feel like you're being "attacked", well newsflash: I'm just doing to you what you're doing to Sakurai. If you don't like it, then maybe you should stop attacking others. "Treat others the way you want to be treated." and all that jazz.

Let me quote the original post you responded to again. What part of this is me attacking sakurai? I SAID BOTH WERE WRONG AND SAID IT WAS A JOKING CONVERSATION. I feel you are just a Sakurai fanboy who will defend everything he says and take offense when other people aren't 100% approving of him. He has done some good in the past and the intent behind his simplification is sound, it is just the execution that is questionable.

And I should respond, "That is a poisoning the well argument and doesn't address any argument except discrediting your opponent".

I've gone over this before, both Sakurai and that player were wrong. The player was Rude, and so was Sakurai who had a bad argument. Also, it was in jest also could be bad translating but I find that hard to believe with Sakurai. So they were both wrong.

The consensus that the conversation was "In jest" but honestly it feels like an exchange between a bad egg and a dismissive developer.

 

[AzureFlame4]

I get his sentiment but I strongly disagree with it

I respect your opinion, but can you explain why you dislike the huge tech barrier being removed? I'm trying to understand why so many people hate the idea of the competitive community allowing more people in.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

I honestly agree wholeheartedly with Sakurai's decisions. I've been playing the Super Smash Bros. Franchise ever since Smash Bros. for N64. I've played N64, Melee, and Brawl thoroughly, at a casual level. No, I don't play with items on or with stage hazards, but I also don't follow traditional tournament/competitive rules, as it personally ruins the fun of the game. I've been playing Smash with my brothers for my whole life. They're the ones who I've spent thousands of hours playing the games with. Now, as said before, we don't follow traditional competitive rules, but let me explain a little bit more.

When my brothers and I start playing the games, we go through everything, playing the game for entertainment, not for hardcore, crazy, stress-enducing matches. We play Versus mode, mostly with four stock, no time limit, no items, and "Random Stage Select" on. We play stages that are fair, not competitive fair, but fair. We don't want hazards or combo walls or things like that, but we'll play something such as Spear Pillar (Brawl) or Poke Floats (Melee), even though they're not welcomed into tournaments. We don't use advanced techniques such as wavedashing, L-Cancelling, and such, as they're really not needed to have fun while still playing to win. We've spent countless hours in Target Test trying to get the best score, Adventure Mode trying to get the fastest time, Home-Run Contest trying to swing that bat and smash Sandbag as far as possible. We're not expert crazy players who fly around the stage faster than you can keep up, doing wavedashes and such. We enjoy playing any character, even if they suck, for fun. I'll go in a match as Dedede (remember, no ATs) or Ganondorf just for fun or as a joke, but still try and win. My brothers and I never follow tier lists, and personally we think Meta-Knight is a bit horrible when playing.

We try doing advanced techniques and it's just annoying and time-consuming. Playing competitively requires your mind to react like crazy, with your fingers moving at lightning speed just to wavedash a thousand times over the stage to reach your opponent so that you can F-Air them into submission while L-Cancelling everything you do until they're off the cliff where you wavedash to ledgehog them. I've tried playing competitively with advanced techniques, and personally it got extremely stressful after a while. I can't even imagine the pressure on people while they're at a tournament, mostly when losing. Now, mind you, we aren't some random players who think they're all time top Rattatas. My brothers and I enjoy stringing moves together for combos, enjoy finding new ways to approach eachother, predict eachother, and such. We use the actual provided rankings in the game to see who's currently topped. Most of the time we played we had a system where we could pick a "main" character that we would have to stick to, and nobody else could play as, so we could keep track of who has the most wins and such, until we moved on to using nametags.

My message may not be coming out clear at all due to the sloppiness of this post, but I'm basically trying to re-instate what Sakurai was describing with actual, personal experience. Melee is stressful and hard to master, with those who know and have mastered advance techniques always having a complete edge and always winning over those who don't. Brawl was slow-paced and dull, without much options for mobility around the stage. Smash Bros. for Wii U and 3DS is going to combine the two, making it into a perfect game. We'll have hitstun to do combos, but won't have combos where somebody will get sent from 0% to death from L-Cancelling and wavedashing while doing frame-perfect moves to string together while chasing your opponent where hitstun isn't so long that you can't move. We'll have fast movement and mobility to traverse the stage without feeling like you're a pillow with a fan blowing under you. We won't have campers sitting in corners only using projectiles and running around, using different approach options and faster movement to punish campers. Most importantly, we have connectivity.

Connectivity throughout players hasn't been possible and still isn't possible until the release of Smash Bros. for Wii U and 3DS. With brand new online modes using Nintendo Network's more advanced and powerful capabilities than the Nintendo Wi-Fi Connection, which was lackluster and provided laggy and bummed-down Brawl matches. Being able to have a good online service and being able to play with others around the world, such as those on SmashBoards, is a huge plus than having to play local all the time or resort to solo modes. We'll have the community on Miiverse to share our screenshots, recordings, best moments, achievements, and even get help with something. Confused on how to unlock a character? Ask the Miiverse community! Just four-stocked your friend and want to brag about it? Go shout out to the whole entire Smash world about it! I know, Miiverse isn't the best place to be on, but in all honesty, it's definitely not as bad as people say it is. Of course, there's children on there, and the community needs to stay friendly to them. The Miiverse Admins work tirelessly to ensure that everybody has a safe and enjoyable time while on it.

Super Smash Bros. for Wii U and 3DS is not going to be a N64 2.0, Melee 2.0, or Brawl 2.0. It's going to be it's own game. Melee is for those who enjoy fast-paced, competitive gameplay using advance techniques to traverse the stages and punish opponents. Brawl is for those who enjoy slow-paced, casual gameplay, playing the game with simpler controls and easier movement. Smash Bros for Wii U and 3DS is a combination of the two, allowing for fast-paced competitive play, along with slow-paced casual gameplay. It'll allow both audiences to enjoy the game without fighting about what type of play is better. For Fun, and For Glory. Sakurai went out of his way to provide Final Destination versions of most stages so that people could enjoy matches without interruptions, while still keeping the diversity and uniqueness of what Smash has to offer. It'll allow for both casual and competitive players to watch tournaments and still enjoy what they're watching, without one side thinking it's lackluster or boring. SDCC had both casual and competitive players cheering on for those Bowser dittos, yelling out loud when Bill beat the crap out of Scar, and going crazy when Damian grabbed Larry mid-air and lunged them both off the stage. The game is catered towards both audiences, and they're trying their best to adjust to both. You can't have super-advanced techniques using insanely fast-paced gameplay with super combos for the competitive community while catering towards the casual, and you can't have slow-paced campy gameplay for the casual community while catering towards the competitive. They're balancing it out in the middle to be enjoyable by both crowds. Competitive players can still enjoy the fast-paced thrill when playing the games, and casual players can still enjoy an ease when playing with simple controls to allow anybody to join in.

 

[Senario]

I respect your opinion, but can you explain why you dislike the huge tech barrier being removed? I'm trying to understand why so many people hate the idea of the competitive community allowing more people in.

I don't mean to be rude so just to let you know I mean this in the best way possible. An earlier post from the guy you quoted in this post ^. Simplification is not a problem, removal is.

He says that melee and other fighting games greatest flaw is that they essentially have tok many AT's

I agree in a sense, its hard to enjoy street fighter without knowing how to shoryuken and tekken is super unfun if you can't juggle but melee was extremely fun and accessible with 0 AT knowledge. I don't think we need wavedashing back and I think that L-canceling is stupid but his dismissive attitude toward competitive players kind of hurts. Smash bros is one of those rare, rare occasions where you can please everyone

 

[Egg-Off the Conquerer]

I respect your opinion, but can you explain why you dislike the huge tech barrier being removed? I'm trying to understand why so many people hate the idea of the competitive community allowing more people in.

Because there is no tech barrier, this isn't street fighter, you can still enjoy the game to its fullest even if you can't ken combo. I personally hate L-cancelling and I don't care if wavedashing returns but we need things like true combos. Sakurai states in that interview that he thinks he has to take away competitive elements in order to make the game more fun for casuals and that's what I don't like, smash has the ability to please both equally

 

[TheKk-47]

I respect your opinion, but can you explain why you dislike the huge tech barrier being removed? I'm trying to understand why so many people hate the idea of the competitive community allowing more people in.

Idk about him, but by removing the huge skill barrier, you're not allowing casuals to become competitive, you're forcing competitive players to be more casual and letting casuals stay the same. You're practically lumping these two groups together, which in the end will just limit pros because that was what Smash was made for(casual party fun).

 

[AzureFlame4]

Because there is no tech barrier, this isn't street fighter, you can still enjoy the game to its fullest even if you can't ken combo. I personally hate L-cancelling and I don't care if wavedashing returns but we need things like true combos. Sakurai states in that interview that he thinks he has to take away competitive elements in order to make the game more fun for casuals and that's what I don't like, smash has the ability to please both equally

Let's agree to disagree then because I don't see it that way at all. I see it as not about making it more fun for casuals, but allowing the "casuals" to take the next step to becoming pros and stand a chance without learning crazy inputs. I've seen plenty of combos up to this point at various events and think when the meta game evolves there will be even crazier ones.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

And he thinks casuals don't like it when the skill ceiling is high because they feel as if they can't keep up(ignoring Melee casuals who had no problems not knowing or not caring, or not going to tournaments.

Well I, for one, found the item grab range in Melee to be far too low (literally I'd stand right on top of a capsule, press A, and accidentally jab it and have it explode in my face), the insane gravity to be just awkward to work with, air dodges to be useless due to helpless fall, spotdodges and rolls to be next to impossible due to the strict input timing, and the incredible, pixel-perfect accuracy you had to use when recovering to a ledge to be incredibly frustrating. Brawl took a much shorter time to get used to (granted I'd already played Melee), and it felt great to be able to fire off aerial attacks in midair or just land a recovery like that, or easily grab an item, or pull off Marth's Dancing Blade just like that, or roll behind a foe easily and instantly punish with jab or FSmash. It's only when I got into looking at competitive Brawl a little, and modding the game with PSA and BrawlBox, that I really noticed just how flawed the game's physics can be. By comparison, I always had problems with Melee's control right from the beginning.

Besides, he never said anything about the skill ceiling being too high, he was talking about the skill floor being too high. That is, the gate to entry. L-cancelling and wavedashing always beat those who can't do either.

I really don't want to argue (cbb today), but I feel like I should point out, autocancelling was in both Melee and Brawl (dunno about 64). In Melee the only move that couldn't be autocancelled was DK's forward aerial. In Brawl it was that move again and I think one of Ganondorf's. Autocancelling is nothing new. However, its relevance in Smash 4 might be. In Melee, autocancelling often had less lag than L-Cancelling, however it was horribly impractical because it could only be performed after (and before but that's not relevant) the hitboxes of the move have taken place, unlike L-Cancelling which could be performed at any time in the move's duration. The gravity and fast-falling nature of the game compounded this issue. In Brawl, it wasn't very useful because the general floatiness of the game meant that a lot of characters could actually complete an aerial before landing, if they didn't fast fall.

I think what I'm getting at is, if autocancelling is to play a big influence on all levels of play, then the characters need to have moves with a duration that allows them to often land in the autocancel window. So let's say I do a short hop with Fox and use my back aerial at around the apex of my hop and then just let myself drift down and I just so happened to land during the autocancel window. That would be good in my opinion. The timing and input is clearcut - use at apex of short hop, don't fast fall.

In contrast, it's hard to grasp autocancelling if say I had to... Use the aerial about 2/3s of a second after starting my jump and then start fast falling about 10 frames before I touch the ground so that I'll land juuuuuuuuuuuust in time for the autocancel. That sort of thing is confusing for anyone who doesn't study frame data and difficult for pretty much everyone ever due to such a bizarre method of operation.

(Paragraphs 2 and 3 are hypotheticals, of course. I don't actually know Fox's or any other character's autocancel timings.)

I think Smash 4's physics might lead to more natural autocancel timings. Here's hoping!

I have watched (but not played) a little Smash 64, in particular that infinite combo vid with Fox on Hyrule Castle. His DAir literally looks just like that, though of course infinite combos are not a thing. And it seems like you got the auto-cancel timing on BAir pretty close to perfect, though it seems you have to start BAir on your way up just before you reach the apex of the hop, much like people use it in Melee but without the fast-fall.

And yes, I am well aware that auto-cancelling was a thing in Brawl and Melee, though horribly impractical in both. But I've seen things from moveset vids that make it look really viable in Smash 4.

I personally hate L-cancelling and I don't care if wavedashing returns but we need things like true combos

And we have them! Not to the same extent as Melee, obviously, and I think that definitely bothers some people here who are complaining about Fox being low-tier because he can't do what he did in Melee. Nobody can do that. Not a single member of the cast. But they can still combo. Almost every UTilt ever, Samus's DAir into USmash or BAir, Mario's UAir into itself many times over, Fox's Dash Attack into a UTilt loop into NAir. This stuff is happening.

 

[StarLight42]

Have my hopes and dreams of Smash 4 being the perfect mix of competitive and casual gone out the window?

Possibly not, but unless competitive gamers appeal to Smash 4's "new style", here comes Brawl 2.0.

It will really suck if this game isn't competitive. That would kind of be a ***** slap in the face for those employees at NOA that specifically scheduled the Smash Bros. Invitational and Comic Con tournaments so Smash 4's potential could be seen.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Well I, for one, found the item grab range in Melee to be far too low (literally I'd stand right on top of a capsule, press A, and accidentally jab it and have it explode in my face), the insane gravity to be just awkward to work with, air dodges to be useless due to helpless fall, spotdodges and rolls to be next to impossible due to the strict input timing, and the incredible, pixel-perfect accuracy you had to use when recovering to a ledge to be incredibly frustrating. Brawl took a much shorter time to get used to (granted I'd already played Melee), and it felt great to be able to fire off aerial attacks in midair or just land a recovery like that, or easily grab an item, or pull off Marth's Dancing Blade just like that, or roll behind a foe easily and instantly punish with jab or FSmash. It's only when I got into looking at competitive Brawl a little, and modding the game with PSA and BrawlBox, that I really noticed just how flawed the game's physics can be. By comparison, I always had problems with Melee's control right from the beginning.

Besides, he never said anything about the skill ceiling being too high, he was talking about the skill floor being too high. That is, the gate to entry. L-cancelling and wavedashing always beat those who can't do either.



I have watched (but not played) a little Smash 64, in particular that infinite combo vid with Fox on Hyrule Castle. His DAir literally looks just like that, though of course infinite combos are not a thing. And it seems like you got the auto-cancel timing on BAir pretty close to perfect, though it seems you have to start BAir on your way up just before you reach the apex of the hop, much like people use it in Melee but without the fast-fall.

And yes, I am well aware that auto-cancelling was a thing in Brawl and Melee, though horribly impractical in both. But I've seen things from moveset vids that make it look really viable in Smash 4.


And we have them! Not to the same extent as Melee, obviously, and I think that definitely bothers some people here who are complaining about Fox being low-tier because he can't do what he did in Melee. Nobody can do that. Not a single member of the cast. But they can still combo. Almost every UTilt ever, Samus's DAir into USmash or BAir, Mario's UAir into itself many times over, Fox's Dash Attack into a UTilt loop into NAir. This stuff is happening.

I actually saw a great ssb4 samus combo today.

 

[TheKk-47]

Let's agree to disagree then because I don't see it that way at all. I see it as not about making it more fun for casuals, but allowing the "casuals" to take the next step to becoming pros and stand a chance without learning crazy inputs. I've seen plenty of combos up to this point at various events and think when the meta game evolves there will be even crazier ones.

That's a contradictory statement right there. By removing the skills you're not allowing casuals to step up, you're making the game and competitive players step down. I'll say it again, by doing that you're lumping together two different groups, and this won't end well. If you do this there won't be casual or competitive really because everybody would be around the same level. This reminds of Syndrome from Incredibles lol, "When everybody is super, no one will be." Or something like that, but you get the point.

 

[Egg-Off the Conquerer]

Well I, for one, found the item grab range in Melee to be far too low (literally I'd stand right on top of a capsule, press A, and accidentally jab it and have it explode in my face), the insane gravity to be just awkward to work with, air dodges to be useless due to helpless fall, spotdodges and rolls to be next to impossible due to the strict input timing, and the incredible, pixel-perfect accuracy you had to use when recovering to a ledge to be incredibly frustrating. Brawl took a much shorter time to get used to (granted I'd already played Melee), and it felt great to be able to fire off aerial attacks in midair or just land a recovery like that, or easily grab an item, or pull off Marth's Dancing Blade just like that, or roll behind a foe easily and instantly punish with jab or FSmash. It's only when I got into looking at competitive Brawl a little, and modding the game with PSA and BrawlBox, that I really noticed just how flawed the game's physics can be. By comparison, I always had problems with Melee's control right from the beginning.

Besides, he never said anything about the skill ceiling being too high, he was talking about the skill floor being too high. That is, the gate to entry. L-cancelling and wavedashing always beat those who can't do either.



I have watched (but not played) a little Smash 64, in particular that infinite combo vid with Fox on Hyrule Castle. His DAir literally looks just like that, though of course infinite combos are not a thing. And it seems like you got the auto-cancel timing on BAir pretty close to perfect, though it seems you have to start BAir on your way up just before you reach the apex of the hop, much like people use it in Melee but without the fast-fall.

And yes, I am well aware that auto-cancelling was a thing in Brawl and Melee, though horribly impractical in both. But I've seen things from moveset vids that make it look really viable in Smash 4.


And we have them! Not to the same extent as Melee, obviously, and I think that definitely bothers some people here who are complaining about Fox being low-tier because he can't do what he did in Melee. Nobody can do that. Not a single member of the cast. But they can still combo. Almost every UTilt ever, Samus's DAir into USmash or BAir, Mario's UAir into itself many times over, Fox's Dash Attack into a UTilt loop into NAir. This stuff is happening.

Yea, I'm excited about smash 4 so long as combos stay in and the game is aggressive. I'm simply frustrated with Sakurai's mindset. I don't think you guys realize how much more he's being supervised when compared to previous entries in the series. He also has a much better team (for fighting games) and he's being forced to listen to them. Sakurai, just like george lucas, performs much better under supervision

Also, i hate the floatiness

 

[Jumpman84]

Let me quote the original post you responded to again. What part of this is me attacking sakurai? I SAID BOTH WERE WRONG AND SAID IT WAS A JOKING CONVERSATION. I feel you are just a Sakurai fanboy who will defend everything he says and take offense when other people aren't 100% approving of him. He has done some good in the past and the intent behind his simplification is sound, it is just the execution that is questionable.

And I explained to you that Sakurai was not in the wrong nor was he poisoning the well. You see it as an attack on the player and trying to discredit him, which makes absolutely no sense to me. Sakurai might be a magnificent troll (which is his best quality and makes him so lovable, IMO), but he is not a malicious person who would resort to intentionally attacking Smash fans. It's just baffling to me that people could honestly think that's what he's doing, it's just illogical. I don't understand how you can POSSIBLY jump to that conclusion without your own bias against Sakurai.

Besides, so many people on this site attack Sakurai for little to no reason. Someone has to stand up for him and it is my honor to defend him. Sakurai has been a very positive influence on my life and I owe him a great deal.

 

[TheKk-47]

Yea, I'm excited about smash 4 so long as combos stay in and the game is aggressive. I'm simply frustrated with Sakurai's mindset. I don't think you guys realize how much more he's being supervised when compared to previous entries in the series. He also has a much better team (for fighting games) and he's being forced to listen to them. Sakurai, just like george lucas, performs much better under supervision

Also, i hate the floatiness

Agreed, as long as Smash 4 has true and cool combos, and compliments more aggressive play, I'll love it. All we can really do is wait and hope.

EDIT: @ Jumpman84 , you're Sakurai love and bias is starting to creep me out.

 

[Senario]

Yea, I'm excited about smash 4 so long as combos stay in and the game is aggressive. I'm simply frustrated with Sakurai's mindset. I don't think you guys realize how much more he's being supervised when compared to previous entries in the series. He also has a much better team (for fighting games) and he's being forced to listen to them. Sakurai, just like george lucas, performs much better under supervision

Also, i hate the floatiness

Lol George Lucas...seems right. I can't really say no he isn't like george lucas. Both created huge things, both make changes that are not all that. Falco shot first!

Seems to be a trend with a lot of creators and their popular stuff, I know the Evangelion author doesn't agree with what his fans made of his series and the meanings in it. George lucas changed things that didn't need to be changed and some fans dislike it. Sakurai kinda a mix between both of those things.

Floatiness I would say sucks...but I'm trying to learn new characters in melee to keep it fresh...and Sheik is one of them. What is short hop? Sheik is so floaty XD.

Also, give me true combos that are at least 3 legit seperate moves strung together. More would be great though if based on skill.

 

[StarLight42]

And I explained to you that Sakurai was not in the wrong nor was he poisoning the well. You see it as an attack on the player and trying to discredit him, which makes absolutely no sense to me. Sakurai might be a magnificent troll (which is his best quality and makes him so lovable, IMO), but he is not a malicious person who would resort to intentionally attacking Smash fans. It's just baffling to me that people could honestly think that's what he's doing, it's just illogical. I don't understand how you can POSSIBLY jump to that conclusion without your own bias against Sakurai.

Besides, so many people on this site attack Sakurai for little to no reason. Someone has to stand up for him and it is my honor to defend him. Sakurai has been a very positive influence on my life and I owe him a great deal.

Well I don't mean to sound on the "other side" but this translation made my opinion of Sakurai go down a bit. Smash can be casual and competitive, so stop catering to one and attacking the other, especially since NOA is trying really hard to market Smash 4 as a competitive tournament game with the invitational tournaments.

 

[HeavyLobster]

As far as the whole casual vs. competitive dynamic is concerned, keep in mind that the existence of online play complicates things quite a bit. In the Melee days you just played your friends locally and it didn't really matter whether other people were wavedashing because you'd never have to deal with them, while as soon as the series gets decent online, this changes completely. It's like Pokemon, where in Gen 3 EVs and IVs existed, but you could ignore them if you wanted to because you were just playing your friends locally. Nowadays if you're playing online you need to pay attention to these things to not get destroyed. To GameFreak's credit they've done a good job of making these mechanics more accessible to newcomers without taking them away from veterans. Sakurai certainly could've handled this issue better if, for example, he automatically halved landing lag and made the l-button a wavedash button.

 

[Egg-Off the Conquerer]

And I explained to you that Sakurai was not in the wrong nor was he poisoning the well. You see it as an attack on the player and trying to discredit him, which makes absolutely no sense to me. Sakurai might be a magnificent troll (which is his best quality and makes him so lovable, IMO), but he is not a malicious person who would resort to intentionally attacking Smash fans. It's just baffling to me that people could honestly think that's what he's doing, it's just illogical. I don't understand how you can POSSIBLY jump to that conclusion without your own bias against Sakurai.

Besides, so many people on this site attack Sakurai for little to no reason. Someone has to stand up for him and it is my honor to defend him. Sakurai has been a very positive influence on my life and I owe him a great deal.

Yea, but Sakurai was wrong in the conversation he had with that pro. Pro players *do* help develop games. They have for the past 20 years. Even now, Sakurai's currentdesign team likely has pro players on it helping develop the game. Sakurai now has proven the Sakurai in that interview wrong

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Lol George Lucas...seems right. I can't really say no he isn't like george lucas. Both created huge things, both make changes that are not all that. Falco shot first!

Seems to be a trend with a lot of creators and their popular stuff, I know the Evangelion author doesn't agree with what his fans made of his series and the meanings in it. George lucas changed things that didn't need to be changed and some fans dislike it. Sakurai kinda a mix between both of those things.

Floatiness I would say sucks...but I'm trying to learn new characters in melee to keep it fresh...and Sheik is one of them. What is short hop? Sheik is so floaty XD.

Also, give me true combos that are at least 3 legit seperate moves strung together. More would be great though if based on skill.

If George Lucas is like Sakurai then the prequel trlogy is awesome!

 

[Senario]

Well I don't mean to sound on the "other side" but this translation made my opinion of Sakurai go down a bit. Smash can be casual and competitive, so stop catering to one and attacking the other, especially since NOA is trying really hard to market Smash 4 has a competitive tournament game.

I do feel like NoA has got our backs this time, they understand that there is potential in having the game be both competitive and casual. Competitive play gives long term exposure as Melee has shown. If melee didn't have competitive play nobody would care too much about it now.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

The thing I like most about what I see with Smash 4's gravity so far is that a character can start an aerial at the beginning of a jump and end in the air, or start an aerial in the middle of a jump and land on the ground. In Melee, it's been my experience that starting an aerial from the very beginning of a jump still ends with you in landing lag most of the time. Brawl feels like you're in an anti-grav field for most characters. Melee feels like you're wearing a 1-ton weight.

 

[AzureFlame4]

That's a contradictory statement right there. By removing the skills you're not allowing casuals to step up, you're making the game and competitive players step down. I'll say it again, by doing that you're lumping together two different groups, and this won't end well. If you do this there won't be casual or competitive really because everybody would be around the same level. This reminds of Syndrome from Incredibles lol, "When everybody is super, no one will be." Or something like that, but you get the point.

So you're afraid everyone will be on the same level? I mean even in a group of casuals you have people who will win most of the games. The people who are good will still be good even without wavedashing or any of the other techniques. Look at M2K and Zero who are good at all of the games even though Brawl clearly doesn't have all of the techniques Melee has. I understand the concern, but it is just plain silly. Top level players will still be top level. Removing the techniques just allows casuals to stand a get to the top level without having to learn ridiculous tricks in the process.